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A Message from Michele
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Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work [Re: pinn] #2748282
06/25/17 07:58 AM
06/25/17 07:58 AM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 347
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annab74 Offline
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Originally Posted By: pinn
Hey NY,

I think the problem is there has never been any *real* consequences when your wife violates boundaries. There is a brief argument then things go back to normal and your wife starts the cycle again sometime later. Agree with cadence... get it in writing so there is no doubt. But you have to be prepared to walk away if the violations continue otherwise the whole thing is pointless.




This ^^^^^^^

As has already been pointed out, the covert communication may mean nothing other than W isn't comfortable telling you the truth. That's something you can work on. W and you both have needs for safety in this situation. W needs to feel safe to open up and be honest without fear of a blow up from you. You need to feel safe that she is actually *being* honest and honorable with her activities and intentions. Until you both get what you need, this cycle is going to continue.

Although I think there needs to be understanding for the fact both people have unmet needs and fears in this situation, I think it's also salient that this behavior seems to be a pattern with W. She has never appeared to respect your boundaries, nor have there been any consequences for not doing so. You teach other people how to treat you by the things you allow to continue.


Me: 43, Him: 40
Married: 21 years

Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work [Re: NYGal] #2748320
06/26/17 12:30 AM
06/26/17 12:30 AM
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 2,045
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MoveFrwd Offline
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I can only imagine the difficulty of piecing as I never went through that process. Judging only from the words Ive read here of the people in piecing, it sounds like an extreme test of emotional strength. For even attempting it, I commend you and W.

That said, it is also difficult to read your posts as you come and write almost exactly the same post every month or two. W and OW had XYZ conversation and W lied or minimized or covered up or whatever. You keep expecting her to do something or be something and when it doesnt happen, you 'lose it'. So W 'acts better' and a few weeks later, the cycle is repeating.

Accepting the fact that W and OW do work together and continue to work together, what exactly are your boundaries? What kind of contact do you consider acceptable and what do you consider unacceptable? Are those clear to W? What are your actions if those boundaries are crossed? Are those responses consistent? Are they also made clear? Are you actually willing to implement any of these responses?

Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work [Re: MoveFrwd] #2748338
06/26/17 02:51 AM
06/26/17 02:51 AM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 207
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Stormchaser Offline
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Speaking from experience:

My W worked with OM for over a year after BD.

Anna said what I went through. My W assured me that communication was barely "hi, bye" at work. Later I found out there was more and I wasn't happy. I also have a temper and let her know how pissed I was that she still talked to him.

I have a bit of a different take: Infidelity, IMO, is one of the worst things one spouse can do to another. My new IC has helped me see that I'm going through PTSD. I have every right to be angry that they still work together. Its a constant thorn in my side, wondering what kind of banter they have. Of course they're gonna lie. They know its wrong but continue to do it without any consequences. Plus, my new IC helped me see that if my W had ANY remorse, she'd quit. My W would use the excuse that she had a specialty job, or that we'd lose her income - and that's what they were, merely excuses. Many executives were forced out of their jobs for corporate shenanignas, so why was HER job so special? I wasn't asking her to give up her career, just her stupid job. Our MC would get mad at ME for wanting my W to quit. Once I started seeing the new IC, this crappy MC went out the window and I started to recover. My new IC taught me that it was perfectly OK with me to be angry that she continued working with OM. As a matter of fact, he told me if she had resigned immediately last year, it would've saved us a year of pain and torture. And in that year she likely would've found something better.

Now, NYGAL, you're NOT gonna like what I say next: Several months ago I found out OM got promoted. I saw this and my heart sunk. I knew they're be daily interaction for sure now. I was living on hope that my W was telling the truth and they barely communicated. Now that he was going to be her boss, this would change. My IC and I talked and I decided that was that. I couldn't stay in the marriage. He was all in agreement. HOWEVER, before I had a chance to tell her I wanted out, she told me she resigned that morning and cc'd me in on her resignation email. She didn't even bother with notice. It was effective immediately and we had lunch later that day.

She admitted she knew this would destroy us and wanted to stay married, no matter what. She would do whatever it took to keep us together, even if it meant getting a menial job below her qualifications. In that year, we both changed for the better. This would ruin everything we worked hard at.

You know what? Yes, I'm broke. I'm so far in debt its not funny. Yes, she's starting over. It may take her a year to recover. But - I'm happy. I mean, I'm ecstatic!! They are no longer together. She's now 100% focused on me. Because we're struggling financially, we sit down and talk about it. She understands. She's become frugal. We cut back. We make it work. We find ways to make it work. Its been 3 months since her resignation and I'm watching her evolve. This forced her to become a savvy business woman now and her home business will likely take off in a year. She created a website. Support is pouring in now.

I'm helping. I WANT to help!! This was the thing that held me back from giving 100% to the marriage. With her willingness to quit, I found myself really invested in what she was doing now. We're broke but happy.

Now - my W had no retirement, pension or anything with her old company - but I believe had she had all that, she'd STILL leave. She'd figure something out.

I'm sorry - but I think you'll never have any peace until OW and W are separated.


Me: 52
Her: 48
2D 26 & 16
M: 25 years (together 30)
EA/discovered by accident Valentines day 2016
Admitted SOME physical but no IC.
We know that's a lie.
Status - tryin to R
Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work [Re: Stormchaser] #2748423
06/26/17 11:12 AM
06/26/17 11:12 AM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 1,415
Somewhere in the middle
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NYGal Offline OP
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Somewhere in the middle
Storm, that's a wonderful story and I think it speaks volumes for the depth of your love for each other. Kudos to your W for the courageous step she took.


11/4/15 W revealed EA/2 months later became PA with co-worker
Reconciling since late April 2016
Don't give up until it's time, then move on
Be patient, strong and kind but never a doormat
Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work [Re: NYGal] #2748424
06/26/17 11:16 AM
06/26/17 11:16 AM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 1,415
Somewhere in the middle
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NYGal Offline OP
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Thank you all for such thoughtful replies! I'm sincerely humbled. My "quote" button isn't working, so I'm going to just quote some of you and respond.

Blu:"A big part of my willingness to work on the M and work on forgiving H has to do with his regret about what happened and therefore he has some disgust for how he behaved (and consequently towards her)… If he had to see her, work with her, or remain in contact with her, the entire dynamic would be different. I can't see how you can respect a coworker and work with them if you are trying to move past an A (if considered a mistake or addiction) with them. I honestly don't get it."

YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD THERE, BLU. THAT'S EXACTLY HOW I FEEL. W EXPRESSES REGRET, BUT THE DISGUST PART IS MISSING. I KNOW I CAN'T CONTROL THAT BUT IT WOULD MAKE ME FEEL BETTER IF I KNEW SHE WAS REALLY TRYING TO AVOID THE ow INSTEAD OF HAVING A 35 MINUTE CONVERSATION WITH HER! I'VE SEEN SO MANY EXAMPLES OF HER LIES, LIKE THE TIME SHE SWORE THERE WAS NO CONTACT, NOPE, NONE. BUT I SAW THEM LEAVING A MEETING TOGETHER CHATTING. THAT WAS MONTHS AGO BUT THOSE THINGS STICK IN MY BRAIN AND COME BACK WHEN THINGS LIKE THIS PHONE CALL HAPPEN. AND THEN I TRY TO BELIEVE ALL THE SWEET WORDS UNTIL… BAM SOMETHING ELSE HAPPENS.

Cadence: "I see a terrible cycle happening here. You're watching W's actions for any hint that you'll be hurt again. W has to interact with exOW for work, and isn't being fully forthcoming with you about it. Most likely it is because she fears an emotional reaction and conflict from you, not because she is going to cheat again (but we don't know that for sure.) Knowing she's not disclosing the truth allows you to grow hurt and resentment, while you monitor her more closely, and W continues to work with exOW while mostly hiding it from you. And then your resentment explodes and you get emotional, thus confirming for W that she is doing the right thing by not telling you." DO YOU LIVE INSIDE MY HEAD? YOU SUMMED IT UP EXACTLY. YOU'RE RIGHT, MAYBE I NEED TO PUT IT IN WRITING. OR TATTOO IT ON HER ARM. AND YES, IF ONLY SHE WOULD TREAT Xow LIKE A DISLIKED CO-WORKER, THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I WOULD HOPE FOR. SOMEONE TO BE PROFESSIONAL WITH BUT AVOID WHENEVER POSSIBLE AND CERTAINLY NOT SHARE FEELINGS AND EMOTIONS WITH, EVEN IF ONLY ABOUT WORK.

Annab, I'm always honored when you pay a visit!

And finally, many of you shared the same thoughts about how there are no real consequences (other than a couple days of misery) about the line I keep drawing in the sand. In all honesty, you're right, I never gained the courage to actually consider leaving. So keeping that in mind, I'm going to at least work on getting it all in writing. And I just ordered a paper copy of MWD's book about recovering from infidelity. I hope W will consent to reading it. I read it on Kindle and I think it's very, very supportive of both WWS and LBS.
Thanks all, I'm still digesting all this.


11/4/15 W revealed EA/2 months later became PA with co-worker
Reconciling since late April 2016
Don't give up until it's time, then move on
Be patient, strong and kind but never a doormat
Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work [Re: NYGal] #2749070
06/29/17 10:59 AM
06/29/17 10:59 AM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 1,415
Somewhere in the middle
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NYGal Offline OP
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Just checking in. W saw our MC alone on Tuesday and said it was a good session. I haven't asked her for any specifics, just hoping that the counselor helped her see why being transparent is so important. But she still changed her password on phone and iPad at some point and hides both from me. I'm letting it go for now.
W just called to tell me that she has to email ow again about this initiative ow is working on with W's department. I'm glad she told me, as this is what I've asked for, and I thanked her and said that this will help as it's keeping with our agreement to tell me whenever there is any contact. But I gotta tell you all, this makes me very uneasy. It results from a little impropriety at our place of employment and the higher ups have asked ow to step in and help with teaching W's department about ethics and integrity. LOL!!!! We work at a crazy place. So I THINK W is trying to stay as far apart from this whole thing as she can, but I'm afraid they will be thrown together more and more.

It's not that I'm afraid they'll start their affair again. I think ow proved she really does prefer boys and all that entails... (eye roll on my part) but it's just the normalization of a relationship of any sort between them that bothers me. This ow was the homewrecker who cared nothing about our marriage and family and in particular my well-being. So for her to come in and normalize interaction with W just feels wrong. She doesn't get to interact with my W. And no, W can't leave her job. She's been here for something like 35 years and is an institution in her own right. Does that make sense? The bit about how I am disgusted by any attempt for them to normalize any interaction? It's my bottom line. It's not OK.

So I just have to figure out how to navigate this.

Meanwhile, W refused to write down and sign our NC with ow agreement. She says it just makes her a loser if she breaks it and gives me more reason to be mad... now there's some mixed up logic for you!!! But I sort of know what she's saying. She doesn't want to look weak or unable to keep to an agreement. And keep in mind, she's a people pleaser and always is so concerned about what people think about her, so she can't set a boundary with ow. I get that and I hate it about her. And I'm threatened by it.

I think the best thing for me is to keep GALing and be independent and strong and interesting, and not so predictable that she can take me for granted. If I make and keep a happy home and am not just a doormat that's got to help, right?


11/4/15 W revealed EA/2 months later became PA with co-worker
Reconciling since late April 2016
Don't give up until it's time, then move on
Be patient, strong and kind but never a doormat
Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work [Re: NYGal] #2749078
06/29/17 11:55 AM
06/29/17 11:55 AM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 275
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cadence Offline
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Quote:
It results from a little impropriety at our place of employment and the higher ups have asked ow to step in and help with teaching W's department about ethics and integrity.


Life is funny sometimes, isn't it?

Quote:
The bit about how I am disgusted by any attempt for them to normalize any interaction? It's my bottom line. It's not OK.


I'm not sure what you mean by this, since you say that they do have to work together. What is the boundary?

Quote:
I think the best thing for me is to keep GALing and be independent and strong and interesting, and not so predictable that she can take me for granted. If I make and keep a happy home and am not just a doormat that's got to help, right?


Right. Things seem okay right now, but there's always room for improvement.

My instinct is to focus on yourself and nourishing your own soul to the point that you feel strong enough to leave if you needed to.

Once you get to that point, where you're not afraid to lose her, I think that things will improve. There's a power imbalance now. We're not allowed to recommend other resources, but I've read a very interesting book in the past that addresses power in relationships and uses the terms "one-up" and "one-down." Basically, the one-up always has more power because they are focusing on themselves and their hobbies and are less afraid to walk away. Their attraction to the one-down is lesser than the one-down's attraction to the one-up.

I think letting W back relatively easily made you the one-down. So it's time to devote energy into yourself get closer to being the one-up!

Does that make sense?

Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work [Re: cadence] #2749177
06/30/17 03:33 AM
06/30/17 03:33 AM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 1,415
Somewhere in the middle
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NYGal Offline OP
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That makes sense cadence.
This morning W told me ow emailed her again... work stuff. But also put in there that she's going to Chicago today and when she'll be back so call her cell phone. W says she won't and that she'll just email her back with the pertinent work related stuff. So it's progress that she told me that. Still, I hate hate hate that they are corresponding and that sow is proposing phone calls and telling W about her travel plans. This is all supposed to end when sow submits a report on August 1. It's going to be a rough month.

Look out Chicagoans, you've got a homewrecker heading your way this weekend. Keep your children safe and your spouses close. It's aliiiiiiiiiiiiivvvvve!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


11/4/15 W revealed EA/2 months later became PA with co-worker
Reconciling since late April 2016
Don't give up until it's time, then move on
Be patient, strong and kind but never a doormat
Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work [Re: NYGal] #2749179
06/30/17 03:42 AM
06/30/17 03:42 AM
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 2,045
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Originally Posted By: NYGal
That makes sense cadence.
This morning W told me ow emailed her again... work stuff. But also put in there that she's going to Chicago today and when she'll be back so call her cell phone. W says she won't and that she'll just email her back with the pertinent work related stuff. So it's progress that she told me that. Still, I hate hate hate that they are corresponding and that sow is proposing phone calls and telling W about her travel plans. This is all supposed to end when sow submits a report on August 1. It's going to be a rough month.

Look out Chicagoans, you've got a homewrecker heading your way this weekend. Keep your children safe and your spouses close. It's aliiiiiiiiiiiiivvvvve!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I wonder at what point you will be able to let go of your anger towards OW. I get it, she knowingly had a relationship with a married woman. I have no interest in being around the AP. But it isnt like my ex or your W were innocent bystanders preyed on by the evilest people on the planet. The AP is just a regular person. Sure, they arent folks Id want to hang out with. And had I reconciled with my ex, Im sure that I would never want to hear or see from the AP again.

But ultimately, that anger is yours to own, and I fear it's getting in the way of your healing. To actually forgive W seems like you have to forgive OW as well. Coming on here and talking all kinds of smack about her shows all that pent up anger that you still have over the whole sitch that is eroding your chances at success.

Re: NYGal: Together and Doing the Work [Re: MoveFrwd] #2749181
06/30/17 04:05 AM
06/30/17 04:05 AM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 5,301
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Sotto Offline
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I agree about the 'feelings towards OW' area and think it is an important one to look at. Being reconciled with your W and your W still having contact with OW is a tough one for sure, and I can understand the triggers there.

For me, I rarely hear about OW and I'm grateful for that. I certainly wouldn't want to have to see her. So I guess there are still some feelings there. But in the main, I manage to take a more logical view of the situation. OW (in my case) had two A's on the trot, the second with XH, where she cheated on the first guy she had cheated with. I think it is pretty sad to live like that, and it must (mustn't it?) be hard to live with that too.

I don't think anyone (or many people) look back and think - Wow, I'm glad I cheated - even if they are in a happy relationship with their original AP, the R always started in 'that deceptive place'

I read once that demonising the AP helps us not have to deal with the difficult feelings we have towards our partner. It means we see them and ourselves as 'victims' - rather than letting all parties take responsibility for 'their part' including ourselves...

Anyway - just my thoughts - and hope there is something helpful in here for you.

Xx


T 13 M 7
Me 48 H 46
SS 15
BD 7.14 PA
D final 5.16 (H filed)

We receive & we lose, and must try to achieve gratitude & embrace with whole hearts whatever of life that remains after the losses - Dubus
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