A WW? (3)

[lt0402]

In the kitchen I notice there's a large, empty wine bottle in the fridge, and a wine glass drying in the drying rack. Unsure why W is drinking every evening and keeping such weird hours.

lt0402 - I think that one thing that most of us lose sight of is that our W are not necessarily the rational beings we used to know. They are on their own journey that has it's own struggles. In some fashion especially for those on the MLC road from what I've read it's an incredibly bumpy, painful ride through the fog with no real destination in sight.

She may well be more scared than you are. You're putting a plan together, you're getting more confident on your own journey and you have the fine people here to support you. She's got the fire-starter brigade, OM and a bottle of wine as her guides.

Think of that the next time that she seems evil or thoughtless but know that it's a journey she has to take on her own. Your paths may cross in the fog or when you both emerge from the fog you may be in different places.

Thanks AP, that's helpful on the compassion front. I'd been finding myself sliding into a place where there was some vitriol for the W recently.

It is amazing when you take a step back and think about how constructive our journey has become vs. how destructive theirs still is. Quite a stark contrast in the scheme of things. It's sad that they still want to try to pull us into the destruction and mayhem they are experiencing. I'm getting better at being pulled into that world and really find myself feeling a ton better for it. Still hard at times though.

AP, appreciate you as always brother! Really helped me get in a better mood just now!

[lt0402]

D and her friends are winding down and getting settled in for their sleepover. I'm in the mbr brushing my teeth getting ready for bed. W decides it's time to talk and comes in.

W says "what is your plan? I can't do this anymore. We sit in the same house, don't talk, and as soon as D is in bed you go to bed."

I tell her it's her choice that we don't talk. W says she's tried to talk to me this week and I've avoided her. I say I'm more than happy to have a conversation with her and she says we haven't had a conversation in 5yrs, what's the point now.

She says that she hasn't talked to "college boy", as she's now calling him, in 2 weeks. I can check it if I want. I tell her I have no desire to and haven't done that since the last blowup. She also warns me that what I'm doing borders on illegal bc I took her social security # and went into her phone account. I informed her that there's a shared login for the Verizon account that in no way is her ssn.

She then says we need to talk about this "plan" that I'm supposed to have. I ask what W means by a "plan". She says one option is she moves out, but she'd have to take D with her. She says that neither of us want D having to live in an apartment. I ask her what the other option is and she says that I move out (with a stern face). She says it's not healthy for D to live in a house with parents who don't talk and she won't stand for it.

W then asks if I have other options. I tell her she is aware of my other option and I don't believe divorce is the answer to our problems. She asks what the other option is and I tell her I'm not going to repeat what she already knows. She says "marriage counseling? What good would that do?"

Luckily, D knocks on the door to ask a question and W leaves. Too tired to deal with this right now. W trying to pull me into saying this is fixable again for some reason.

Also, I can't believe she offered me leaving as the best option. I'm relatively level right now, but that's so over the top ridiculous. She would like to continue the conversation tomorrow. Fun...

[lt0402]

Ok, so I know she's trying to play me to get something here. There's the guilt card of don't hurt D by forcing her into the street. The veiled threat of what I did being illegal, even though it's a joint phone account. And the pushing to get to an admission that I believe our M is still fixable.

I hesitate to tell her she cannot take my D from the house bc of the wrath it incurs and the uncertainty of how she will react. But in this case I don't see a choice. I think I need to inform her that 1) she can't just take D, 2) she is welcome to sleep elsewhere besides mbr and 3) i don't think that divorce fixes our problems.

Tried to validate but she seems to want me to do the talking. I think I keep it short and to the point. How do I address of she keeps trying to get me to say this is fixable?

Open to thoughts on all this. Not really freaked out like I have been in the past. More thoughtful than anything right now.

[lt0402]

Oh, the other thing she said is that her not having contacted OM in 2 weeks (who knows if this is true) is proof it had nothing to do with ending our M.

Ok....

[vise82]

Hey,

Not sure if I am the best to give advise but I have been in your shoes to some degree.

So with in house you are in control. only you or a judge can decide when you move out. This gives you time so use it wisely to work on you. to work on your next move. go through your options fo where you can live. Give W the space she asks for.

Figure out what you want. Not what will cause your W to get angery the least. And whats best for your D9.

i think you are doing well. Dont engage. Know your rights as far as her taking D9 out of the family home. If you dont need things to change right now then dont change them. Move forward when you think its time. You got this.

[lt0402]

Thanks vise. I definitely feel more in control now than I have throughout this whole thing. There seems to be two underlying themes here. W seems to want me to push this thing forward, not her. For what purpose I can guess, but I don't know for sure. Second, W seems to be giving a hint that her quality time tank is empty. She probably filled this recently with OM stuff so it'd make sense if she's shutoff contact with him. Unsure if she has or not though. A 3rd thing could be that she's trying to undercut me by getting me to leave the marital home before we get an agreement in place.

W won't force me out of the house. Nor does she seem to recognize that if we split then D will be forced into a sub optimal living situation for a long period of time.

Regardless, W wanting me to leave the house seems like the ultimate in cake eating. Really not that upset about it right now, just seems silly she'd even mention it.

On engaging and giving her space, that's where I'm a bit stuck. She says she wants to talk but then in the same breath says she doesn't. She ignores me around the house then says I don't engage her. she seems to be making up stuff that fits whatever she's trying to spin at that point in time. I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

Got up early to get donuts for the girls when they get up from their sleepover. Sipping coffee and typing this and W comes over and tells me to stop getting donuts bc they are unhealthy for D and her friends. Says I need to talk to her before doing that.

It never stops. Guess I'll need to be upfront tonight about not leaving and if she leaves then we need a custody sharing agreement in place. If she pushes on the "this is fixable" stuff I'll toe the line of you know the option on that and it's hard work that we both need to be committed to. Right now I know that's not an option bc she still views me as an impediment to her future life and she shows no remorse for the OM situation.

Vise, your thoughts are spot on and extremely timely and helpful! Really appreciated bud!!

[DonH]

Lol, I have to confess, when I read that I thought, doughnuts again? And I'm anything but a health nut but you may want to switch things up a bit rather than the same things over and over again.

That said it it clear no matter what you do it will be the wrong thing to WW. That's just where she is right now. Regardless of what it is, if you did it, it is wrong. thats because she is frustrated and what she thought would happen and you would do are throwing her off. This is good. It's good DBing. She hates her life and therefore because you are there, it's all your fault. You simply need to keep common sense over nonsense. Don't let her convince you that you are wrong and she is right when it comes to crazy things. She has a lot of growing up to do and the stronger you stand the better off you are. Others here can help you more with that.

[mvgfwd2]

Never leave the house or your D. That can, and most likely will, be used against you to show you don't care for D and abandoned her. She can't kick you out and you can't kick her out. So if she wants to live in separate homes your only option is for WW to move out. So you have only 2 options acceptable to you. She moves out or MC (which she knows if your first choice). When you have that discussion be clear D is not moving out if WW decides to move out and if anything it will be a shared custody. So know your rights in this area. If she won't move out our go to MC then her only option is to move to another bedroom and deal with it. Otherwise, act and be confident that no matter what happens you will be fine. Don't get into an argument or let her push you around with her commanding nature.

[lt0402]

Ok, so had the conversation with W tonight. Started out with a quick summary of the ways I've mistreated and ignored D and her over the years. Then she asked me what my plan was. I started to talk and she cut me off. I listened and when she stopped I asked her to please not cut me off again.

I told her that I don't believe that divorce is the answer to our problems. She said she can't live for one more minute with me in this house. I told her that if she felt she needed to leave she was more than welcome to and I'm more than capable of taking care of D full time.

She starts interupting me again, so I get up and tell her that we can finish this conversation tomorrow night. Then i leave and go upstairs. 2 minutes later I get a text saying "Please come back, I won't interrupt" then another saying "I'm sorry". Wait a couple minutes then I go back down.

I reiterate that if she feels she needs to go then she can, but she can't take D with her. I tell her this divorce is her choice and I'm not going to leave my house. She asks me why I would make this so difficult and why I'm being unfair. I tell her again that this is her choice and if she doesn't want to be here then she can go but without D.

She starts to cry and goes into detail again on how she's been telling me for years that this is over, and we both knew we were just together bc of D (news to me) the past 5 yrs. she tells me how horrible I've been, how D has repeatedly asked her to have me find somewhere else to live, and how there is 0 chance we are still married on her 40th birthday.

We start to go into her view of timing of the OM situation and its the changing timeline again. She says this has 0 to do with is getting divorced, etc. Same story but with different dates. we stop rehashing that issue (very tired of it right now) and we talk more on custody.

W says we need to keep her in one household to sleep every night. W would be that primary household. I can see her 1hr every evening and every other weekend. I tell W that's not how it works and she will be splitting time bt our households, on both weekends and weekdays. W says that's not good for D bc of the instability it brings. Not being able to help myself I ask W how she can view that as unstable when the choice she's making for divorce causes so much more instability.

W rehashes all of my faults towards her and D over the years. No other husband or father would treat their W and D that way. Etc. etc. she says she sees me changing but bc she doesn't trust me I've lost anymore chances. She says that D also does not trust me, doesn't believe I can take care of her, and it will take a long time to get that back. That's why D can't live with me.

I tell her that I hear her and get her frustration but Ds and my relationship is firm and getting firmer by the day. W says that she's been the 99% caregiver for D and there's no way I'd get sole custody. I tell her I'm fine with sole custody but a 50/50 split seems more fair to both of us. W says don't make D choose who she wants to live with bc I know it'll be W. She says a majority of the time will be with her. I tell her that probably changes when she goes back to work and I've changed my work schedule to be more amenable to Ds schedule.

I tell W that regardless, we need to get D in front of an IC sooner rather than later. We need to build a strong foundation for her bc it only gets rougher from here. W says "you know they won't tell us what she says in there, right?" I say yes (unsure if that's true) but D needs a neutral party to talk stuff through with. W says we need to tell D if we are going to put her in front of an IC. Then W says that after we tell D, W will judge if D needs to go to an IC or not. I tell her no, D needs to go regardless. She says D won't open up to a stranger so it's pointless. I tell her that they can work around that and she needs to go and we stop there.

W brings up that the parents of 2 of Ds best friends are physically separating next weekend. That's two other families being ripped apart. Ughhhh. Apparently they are telling their kids this weekend so W is worried about D asking questions. She said she'd never talk to D about it without me. I tell her I appreciate that and please do not.

W asks why I'm stalling the divorce process. I say this is not my choice and I know divorce is not the answer to our problems. This is her choice and if she would like to see it move forward then she needs to move it. W goes into a tirade saying that I'm playing the victim and as always I'm unwilling to accept any blame. I tell her I readily accept my issues and failures over the years and have been working hard to fix them. I tell her we have never chosen to fix our M and everything is not as black and white as she's made it out to be. I tell her it's a mistake not to try to fix this. She says she is fixing this and this is the only way out. I tell her that it hurts me to see her feel so hopeless about our M.

I say that I think this is a horrible choice she's making. It's a horrible decision for her, D, and myself and I don't agree with it. That was met by silence and her staring away.

I again tell her that this is her choice and I'm not going to proactively push this thing forward. However, I both love and respect her enough that I won't keep her from going if that's her choice. I tell her that if she needs financial documents please give me the list and I will provide them. (She'd mentioned needing these earlier).

She sat there quietly after I said those last few things staring forward. I said them and just got straight up and went upstairs. It felt good to stick up for my M, even if it may have fallen on deaf ears.

Held my emotions in check. Didn't change my tone of voice or lose my cool. But man, when I got up and came upstairs I went in the bathroom and just wanted to cry. Not for my W, but for the uncertainty that my D is being thrust into. It's just so freaking unfair. Tearing up typing that just now.

Overall though that conversation was different. I felt more in control. I felt prepared and ready to confront her. She can't be happy with my view on custody, but I really don't care. My D and I need time together for both of us to have balance. Neither of us should need to give that up bc of Ws decisions. I also worry about D being with W full time and am realizing that is definitely not healthy. W also brought up how MC would never help multiple times in the conversation. I didn't mention MC a single time.

Gym in the morning then fishing with D. D and I fished today and caught 8 fish in the river (sunfish, smallmouth) near the house. A great time. Spent most of the day just D and me. Was an awesome time!

Don, MV, and Vise, you all are extremely appreciated and really helped me prepare for that conversation. I owe everyone here more than I can every fully repay. Thanks to everyone for your support!

P.s. Don, yeah, I need to mix it up. Think I'm realizing donuts 2 weekends in a row may be too much!

[CT1118]

Wow It0402, just wow. Felt like I was reading an historical account of an historic battle. Do agree with others, vacating your house may not look good in court. Is both of you agreeing to sell house and hitting two separate places and option? Right to hold your guns though.

So true on your d12 getting to an IC. Might I suggest, your W does not need to have permission in full for yu you to make that happen?

Overall, you sound strong...keep flexing. Sunfish are fun for kids, ironic - sunfish teach kids if one does not hold the fish properly while removing the hook, on gets hurt.