B's Bootcamp v3

[Bfice3]

----Sidebar Question----

2.) A secondary question that is multi-faceted. Obviously my wife has lost complete respect for me, and even in her own words 'emasculated' me. She has threatened court action and taking the kids 100% custody and all of that, as has been previously discussed.

My question is about how I should be acting from a legal, business, pro-active stance.

I have been basically taking the stance of 'taking no action' so as not to rush or escalate anything beyond where it should be. However, it has come up a couple of times in conversations with friends, that perhaps I should take pro-active action and seek a lawyer to delineate our separation agreement formally. Does taking the first step on this make a difference?

Also, on the living situation. I know I need to get a bigger place. The complex I'm in is very nice, but it is an apartment complex, which is a step down from living in a house. I signed a 1-year lease, and at this point to cancel that least will cost me two months rent. Not to mention, that in general the 2 or 3 bedroom townhouses that I have found are quite a bit farther away from the kids house. Does anyone think that me simply switching my lease in the current apartment complex from a 1 bedroom unit to a 2 bedroom unit is an inadequate solution for the next 12 months? I'm trying not to make any rash decisions, and want to be financially responsible as much as I can, because I'm honestly worried about what types of expenses I may have depending on how hard my WW and her family come after me.

So, if I switch to a 2 bedroom, 2 bathroom apartment with a sun-room, that should be adequate for 3 kids in part-time custody right? If not, do you think a 3 bedroom would be adequate? A three bedroom unit would be a lot more expensive and for half the time would be completely overkill. I don't know. Curious to hear your thoughts.

Thanks,

B

[Vanilla]

B

Firstly

Amazing sobriety

Congratulations but only with lemonade!

The pressures at the moment are very great so that is one heck of an achievement.

I am reading along and am preparing a reply on the FOO (family of origin issues) and in particular about the lineage and 1980s issues. I was there!

The work you are doing on you is impressive indeed.

Can you give me a little time as I need to research a couple of issues whilst I organise my thinking. That is a interesting perspective on your relationship with alcohol.

In the meanwhile do you know if your dad used drugs before you were conceived. Was one of those drugs LSD?

Don't worry if you don't know.

It's just there is a very interesting study on epigenetic influences and drug use by parents prior to conception. It may explain a couple of things.

Big big hugs

I am very impressed indeed

V

[Vanilla]

--Sidebar Question----

1.) I want to send my wife a message and suggest that we move to a true 50% custody. I want to say that if we switch to week by week...she has the kids for 7 days, and then I get the kids for 7 days...that everyone's life will actually be easier.

Currently, there are two transitions every week so the kids have to be packed up and ready to switch twice every week. This is time consuming and emotionally draining on the kids.

Not to mention that if we switch to week-by-week then both my wife and I will have a week where we can focus on the kids and do all kid related activities and then during the following week catch up on all the personal things we need to focus on. I don't know, for me at least, it feels like this constant transition is making it difficult for me to find a solid routine, and if its hard for me, its got to be hard on the kids.

So...the question to you all is, how would you recommend I approach this? Just an email written out just like above

My thinking is kids and their wellbeing always come first. There are many parents around here who can give you better views on the how's.

Any changes should really be documented through an L. There is more peace if there is a parenting plan.

Several parents here use online scheduling tools to remove the heat from their interactions and both parents have access.

I will put a call out to a parent who uses this to see if they have advice.

V

[Vanilla]

----Sidebar Question----

2.) A secondary question that is multi-faceted. Obviously my wife has lost complete respect for me, and even in her own words 'emasculated' me. She has threatened court action and taking the kids 100% custody and all of that, as has been previously discussed.

This is going to change very rapidly now. Firstly sobriety and an increase in energy and health will become evident. Becoming a man only a fool would leave. Next as your boundaries become clear you will be stronger.

My question is about how I should be acting from a legal, business, pro-active stance.

Your first stance is a good quality decent L and to follow their advice.

I have been basically taking the stance of 'taking no action' so as not to rush or escalate anything beyond where it should be. However, it has come up a couple of times in conversations with friends, that perhaps I should take pro-active action and seek a lawyer to delineate our separation agreement formally. Does taking the first step on this make a difference?

I am a great believer in a good L. Interview several until you find one you like. They take instruction from you so if you want W to file first then proceed on that basis. A good L is not a therapist keep your instructions straightforward and interactions minimal. Use email as much as you can on everything and save all emails. Most first meetings are free so interview your L. This is the most important thing you can do for you a good L will save you a lot off hassle and cost. Don't do things yourself as it can cost a great deal to unravel.

Also, on the living situation. I know I need to get a bigger place. The complex I'm in is very nice, but it is an apartment complex, which is a step down from living in a house. I signed a 1-year lease, and at this point to cancel that least will cost me two months rent. Not to mention, that in general the 2 or 3 bedroom townhouses that I have found are quite a bit farther away from the kids house. Does anyone think that me simply switching my lease in the current apartment complex from a 1 bedroom unit to a 2 bedroom unit is an inadequate solution for the next 12 months?

If that works then sounds good to me. Any way you could test it?
I'm trying not to make any rash decisions, and want to be financially responsible as much as I can, because I'm honestly worried about what types of expenses I may have depending on how hard my WW and her family come after me.

I am more than ever convinced on the L if only for peace of mind.

So, if I switch to a 2 bedroom, 2 bathroom apartment with a sun-room, that should be adequate for 3 kids in part-time custody right? If not, do you think a 3 bedroom would be adequate? A three bedroom unit would be a lot more expensive and for half the time would be completely overkill. I don't know. Curious to hear your thoughts.

Kids love bunk beds and sharing with dad sometimes. So depends on the space and the kids. How well they get on and space to play and do homework. Most important is the love of dad and his interactions. You would enjoy reading RD500 thread and the interactions has with his kids. Such fun, family film nights and big hugs. The most important thing is hugs and boundaries. Lots of love and I did say hugs didn't I? I tend to mention those a lot.

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One of the best things you can do is fill in your tags at the bottom. My stuff edit profile then at the bottom. It makes it easier for posters to post to you as it memory jogs.

I am so proud of you on the sobriety, not my place to say but I am saying it anyway.

Hugs

V

[Bfice3]

One of the best things you can do is fill in your tags at the bottom. My stuff edit profile then at the bottom. It makes it easier for posters to post to you as it memory jogs.

Which tags are you referring to here V?

[Bfice3]

your sobriety and the things you are doing are to be highly commended

Thank you for saying this V, and while it is nice to hear, the truth is...I should have been doing this long ago.

In these difficult circumstances you are going to AA and staying sober. This is the most important gift you have for yourself and your family.

It is a very short period of time.

The funny thing about the alcohol is that, so far it really hasn't been too much of an issue. There are a lot of reasons for that...the original and primary one was that in the beginning I believed that getting sober would prove to my WW that I was worthy of reconciliation. There has also been a great deal of fear, in that, I feel as though all of my actions are viewed under a microscope and that any slip up will surely prevent reconciliation and/or make me lose access to my children.

That being said...I do realize that I have a real alcohol addiction. I am powerless over alcohol. I also seem to be powerless over a couple of other 'self-medicating' behaviors. (Pornography and Video Games) I'm not sure yet where and how all of this comes together but I know that they are related in origin.

Know that this is a consequence of your addictive behavior. Your responsibility.

This is one of the key things that I took from your post here. And may be the sentence that truly crushed me. But...it is the truth and exactly what I need to accept. My WW and her in-laws have done many things that are wrong, or deceptive, or controlling, etc...and moving forward they will very likely continue this behavior towards me. I have to realize that doesn't matter. I cannot control them, I can only control myself. I can only look at myself, recognize my faults, honestly, and if possible correct them, and live my life. That has been the true revelation that came when I first read your post. So, thank you, so very much for not being afraid to speak your mind, sharing your experience, and taking the time to do so with me.

I think it would help you to rework steps 1 to 3 of your twelve step program

Yes. I have been starting to feel this also. The first 3 months, my whole focus in everything I did, was reconciliation. When I went to AA...it was so easy (well, not easy) but it was so obviously necessary to 'heal', to 'recover', to have some tangible proof to show my WW...'look, see...I'm better'.

Now, though. I'm looking at it through my eyes, for my life. And suddenly the prospect of sharing, and going through these 12 steps is suddenly much more frightening. Requiring a higher degree of self-reflection. I'll get there...I want to...but it is going to take time.

I also suggest you read about being the child of an alcoholic, your children are the children of an alcoholic. Sobriety for such a short time is not atonement. To atone takes great courage and humility. I don't see it nor do I read that you understand the damage done by addiction by the addict to the family.

This part is hard. Its hard for me to see clearly and accept that I have done so much damage and pain. If I'm being honest, a lot of the memories and details are missing...from gee I wonder why...getting drunk and not being able to remember. I ran and hid from life in alcohol and life just kept going on without me.

The biggest thing I've done...and this is hard to admit. Is that, basically...I allowed my WW to treat our D(15) as a scapegoat...and...even worse...I would do it too. I at least recognize that it has happened. I've discussed it with my WW before over the past few years and she denies any existence of such behavior. My poor daughter is too tender and broken to be able to recognize or speak about this for herself. (I mean, perhaps I project some of my own personal pain onto her experience, but I don't think I'm wrong.)

As for the rest of the time...well...I know that there was a lot of angry outbursts, mood swings, lying and isolating behavior. I mean, yeah, I've done more than my share of damaging my MR. I admit that. And if I look at myself objectively...what woman would want to stay with that man?

Do you have any recommended books on dealing with the children of alcoholics? I've mentioned to my D(15) the Al-Anon process and group and volunteered to go with her to a meeting, but in general, I don't think she is ready to face those types of things. I think she still wants to believe life will be okay on its own...you know...her parents will protect her and make sure she is okay like they always have. (That's sarcasm)

I believe you have a great deal of work to do on you.

Agreed.

Secondly there are physiological issues that need addressing. Substance addicts invariably have poor health especially if they smoke. Nutritional deficiencies and you say you have lost a lot of weight. Know your numbers, get your health, liver function and thyroid tested. Kidney damage is also common.

This is a good reminder. Something that my codependency therapist has been stressing also. 'Know your body' I quit smoking in 2000. (That actually contributed to a lot of my weight gain originally) The weight I've lost was necessary. Did I do it healthily? I don't know. I didn't take any supplements or diet pills or anything like that...I simply knew that I needed to lose weight, because I was fat, and was so depressed that I really wasn't hungry.

Last June I weighed 315lbs. This morning I weighed 231. I'm 6'4", so I still have some weight I feel like I want to lose so that I can have a body that helps me have a higher self esteem. But, for the past month or so I've holding mostly steady around the 230 mark.

But, I should go get a detailed physical probably. I have been to the doctor and my blood pressure was very good for a change. My kids say my snoring at night is gone also - due to weight loss.

Let's also consider the body mind spirit interaction

This is going to be where my real work is done. Early on in my first thread I had a realization one Sunday morning at a men's meeting. And...last night it was reinforced while sitting in a Divorce Care session where they were discussing spirituality and the happiness and healthiness that comes with letting go of anger.

My morality. My spirituality.

AA peers tell me to, 'do the next right thing'.

But...for pretty much for as long as I can remember...I act healthy, I act spiritual, I seem to be these things...at least at first glance. But...when I get alone...I shed those pointless notions and do what I want, how I want. Gluttonous, prideful, selfish, addictive actions. (Though, I never cheated on my WW) I don't know how I justified this in my head...I guess I just lied and figured no-one knew. But the hollow nature of self I created is probably one of the primary things that I have done to degrade into a man that had no value in his MR, career, etc...

I think it would help you to understand that much of your hyper reactivity and mood swings are related to your addiction and the consequences of it.

This right here...this is good stuff. And I've heard it said over the past few months...but never really took it to mean me. I have had extreme reactions both positive and negative to things that really probably shouldn't elicit much of a response at all. Which, that realization stinks, because probably it means that my WW has done less mean stuff than I think, and has also shown even less attention to me than the little that I believed she had displayed. But...that doesn't matter. It is good to remember that I need to slow down all of my responses. Take some time. Be patient.

A friend in AA said, "Nothing is as good, or as bad, as we believe it is."

Dating is not good GAL and if I were W, that would make me think scorpion, so much damage and he dates?

I'm not going to date. I have fantasized about it some. And, while it would be nice to have someone to hold me and tell me that everything will be okay. Forming some new relationship right now is just something that I don't really have any interest in. I do actually want to step out of the other side of this painful place as a new man...a healthy, happy man.

Dark is not good. Validation is important.

I would really like to hear you expand on this. I get the validation being important. I'm not certain I understand the dark is not good aspect. Are you saying I shouldn't be doing NC? I assume that any notion of pursuit needs to explicitly destroyed within myself. But...up to this point, I have had a very difficult time at being able to interact with WW and not pursue. If I force myself to not interact with her other than the barest of minimum responses, then I seem to be able to effectively detach. But, if I talk to her (like a couple of weekends ago) then suddenly I start to feel this desire to pursue.

You are rushing, it's in the nature of compulsives, you have time take it.

Again, great advice. I'm working on being able to put this in to practice. "Time takes time". Again though, one thing that I have really struggled with during this whole process, is how to feel, think, view my future. To sit in limbo...to accept her waywardness...to ignore the fear and uncertainty...to not rage out of control...so hard.

Thank you so much Vanilla for this post. It's difficult for me to express the profound response I had to this message.

I saw some of your other post and I will respond. I'm in no rush, so please don't worry about responding quickly. I grateful that you have taken as much time as you have.

And for RosaLinda and Thornton...I'm going to work my through this thread making responses to every post.

I will also be adding more of my self-examination.

So...stay tuned...same bat time...same bat channel.

Cheers all.

I love you all, seriously. Is it weird that I say that? I don't know why I'm feeling compelled to say that. It's okay, right? Anyway...

-B-

[RosaLinda]

I think Vanilla means the signature, on the bottom of your post. To keep it updated. I may or may not update mine to change my age to 64 this fall, sigh.... Thanks for posting all that stuff about your family of origin. It all contributes, and helps us to see and understand you better.

Lastly...I want to say, the big thing. The things that made me break down from Vanilla's post is the fact that I think I may have realized for the first time...truly...that the faults in my marriage really do stem from me in many ways. Yes, my WW has many faults that I and my children can see. But...so do I. And, I need to worry less about her faults. Worry less about who's to blame. Worry less about why she is doing this...and I need to simply focus on me. I know it keeps getting said here over and over...and I will probably forget it over and over...but I need to accept my faults...and openly admit and address them...or else I will never be able to heal and will be doomed to repeat this scenario.

My WW and her in-laws have done many things that are wrong, or deceptive, or controlling, etc...and moving forward they will very likely continue this behavior towards me. I have to realize that doesn't matter. I cannot control them, I can only control myself. I can only look at myself, recognize my faults, honestly, and if possible correct them, and live my life.

This is the point of DBing, and I am frigging proud of you for understanding this less than 6 months after your bomb drop, B. I muddled and moped around for years, truly. You are doing really really well!

Someone on here is very fond of saying that our marriages are over at bomb drop, but we just don't know it yet. And maybe we can reconcile with our spouse in a new improved marriage. Maybe not. Either way, YOU are and will be a wonderful man and dad. And that's all you can do.

----Sidebar Question----

1.) I want to send my wife a message and suggest that we move to a true 50% custody. I want to say that if we switch to week by week...she has the kids for 7 days, and then I get the kids for 7 days...that everyone's life will actually be easier.

Currently, there are two transitions every week so the kids have to be packed up and ready to switch twice every week. This is time consuming and emotionally draining on the kids.

Not to mention that if we switch to week-by-week then both my wife and I will have a week where we can focus on the kids and do all kid related activities and then during the following week catch up on all the personal things we need to focus on. I don't know, for me at least, it feels like this constant transition is making it difficult for me to find a solid routine, and if its hard for me, its got to be hard on the kids.

So...the question to you all is, how would you recommend I approach this? Just an email written out just like above?

2.) A secondary question that is multi-faceted. Obviously my wife has lost complete respect for me, and even in her own words 'emasculated' me. She has threatened court action and taking the kids 100% custody and all of that, as has been previously discussed.

My question is about how I should be acting from a legal, business, pro-active stance.

I have been basically taking the stance of 'taking no action' so as not to rush or escalate anything beyond where it should be. However, it has come up a couple of times in conversations with friends, that perhaps I should take pro-active action and seek a lawyer to delineate our separation agreement formally. Does taking the first step on this make a difference?

The thing is B, your wife does not really care if things are harder or easier for your kids, and CERTAINLY does not care one single bit what you want. You already spoke to a lawyer right? You need to discuss this with him. The divorce laws are pretty complex in NC as compared to most of the rest of the country, with "fault" still a big issue in assigning alimony and may impact custody arrangements.

While many vets recommend letting the wayward spouse file for divorce, you need to protect yourself and your kids. Your wife threatened to have her family lie in court so she can get 100% custody. The best thing you can do is to discuss this with your lawyer. NC is a hybrid state, and I think the fact that you "abandoned" your wife counts against you, as does your history of alcohol abuse. And your wife's adultery counts against her. Retain that lawyer you spoke to, or find someone you like better. Do it!

So, if I switch to a 2 bedroom, 2 bathroom apartment with a sun-room, that should be adequate for 3 kids in part-time custody right? If not, do you think a 3 bedroom would be adequate? A three bedroom unit would be a lot more expensive and for half the time would be completely overkill. I don't know. Curious to hear your thoughts.

I think 2 bedrooms would be good. The two girls could share a room, and you could put a futon in your room for your son, and use it as a couch when they are not living with you. I personally think your oldest daughter is too old to be sharing with a boy. It would save you a lot of money to be able to switch to a unit like this in the complex you're already living in. Sounds good!

I'm not going to date. I have fantasized about it some. And, while it would be nice to have someone to hold me and tell me that everything will be okay. Forming some new relationship right now is just something that I don't really have any interest in. I do actually want to step out of the other side of this painful place as a new man...a healthy, happy man.

I'm relieved to hear you say this. A new relationship started before you are healed and out of your old relationship is not fair to you or to the new woman.

And more on your wife's lack of respect and emasculating you...Sandi started a great thread on this. Really eye opening, and a little upsetting. Take a look -- http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2653323#Post2653323

I love you all, seriously. Is it weird that I say that? I don't know why I'm feeling compelled to say that. It's okay, right? Anyway...

Not weird at all. I love you too. And honestly, Bfice (what DOES Bfice mean, anyway??) my closest real life friends are people whom I met on this forum. There's something about going thru a terrible trauma together, and helping and upholding and cheering each other on thru good and bad times that gives people really really tight bonds. We know a lot more about each other and can see each other more clearly than social or work friends. Don't cha think?

[RosaLinda]

I forgot to mention this:

This is going to be where my real work is done. Early on in my first thread I had a realization one Sunday morning at a men's meeting. And...last night it was reinforced while sitting in a Divorce Care session where they were discussing spirituality and the happiness and healthiness that comes with letting go of anger.

That is the most important thing I learned from Divorce Care. That holding on to anger and resentment and unforgiveness is poison and killing YOU, while the person you are so angry with is totally oblivious and going their merry way. Forgiving is SO freeing.

[Bfice3]

Hey All,

Just a quick post. I keep feeling the urge to want to tell my WW what I found about her affair. (Her list of pros and cons.)

I'm not sure why. I decided originally to not tell her because I read here that it was best not to. And also, I feel like it may be an 'ace in the hole' that could help me prove her intentions with regards to our marriage and help out representing myself legally if necessary.

But, I just hate the fact that she has been able to just lie to me. I don't know. I'm 'not acting' right now...coming here to get a level headed perspective.

I suppose...if I'm being critically honest...part of also hopes that she would be exposed...feel incredibly great shame...and then...you know...love me again.

^^^SICK^^^ But...it is the truth. And, I'm sure that based strictly on the above I should not talk to her at all.

In a month, maybe?

Oh B...let go of this miserable woman.

I actually had a thought earlier...I thought...if I let her go...if I let her no longer have any power over me...she wouldn't be able to make me feel like this. Then I dismissed that thought. But I had it! That's how normal people feel...right?

Anyway...thanks for any responses.

[Thornton]

I struggle with the same thoughts. Don't reach out to her, you won't get the peace of mind you think you will. It's a dead end.

I wishi could just move on from mine too. Start over with someone that values relationships as much as I do.