WAW online EA and maybe MLC

[cubebot]

Hey Squiggy,

Thank you for your input! Here is the revised version per your recommendations. Still waiting to hear Sandi2's thoughts. She does seem to be very reactionary, do you think it is to early for this? I feel like now or never because she keeps asking me for info related to her D filings. I also want to include the OM's name because he really isn't anything special in looks or employment and it would probably be embarrassing for her to know that I know the truth about her minimum wage knight in shining armor that lives @ home with his mommy.

"I HAVE BEEN DOING SOME THINKING..
and here is what I have decided. I don't know why I didn't see this before, but I have realized that this just isn't going to work this way. I now realize that I don't want to be with someone that really doesn't want to be with me. I don't want to be with someone who is in love with another man and having an affair. It just isn't what I want in life.

If you want to file, file. If you want to break off your relationship with xxxxxx and address the real issues that got our marriage to this point I am open to that too. But I will be alright either way. I also think you should figure out something to do with your stuff as soon as possible. Within two weeks would be good. If we need to we can just box it up and put it in the garage until you can afford your own place. I am sorry it didn't work out between us but I have now realized that maybe this is for the best. It looks like we both have some big decisions to make. Anyway, I have to go to my friends and I am running late. That is all I had to say. Talk to you later."

[sandi2]

am currently reading ... and intrigued by advice, but not sure what the best strategy is. I already told WW to chose her fantasy world/game/OM or her family. She moved out that night.

I just feel you are jumping from one thing to another to see if you get the right reaction from her. Grant it, I have seen some cases where Guicci's speech worked, but I think you are basically giving her another ultimatum, and you've already seen how she responds to it. I really believe you need to get more DBing under your belt, before making this leap. At least, wait till next weekend and see if you change your mind about it.

[cubebot]

180's

So I want to revisit my 180's. Before jumping to anything drastic, I want to make certain I am doing my best with the DB'ing basics


R 180's

1) Lack of Trust in Her - Unfortunately, I have always been a "trust but verify" guy, and my "Mr. Nice guy" behaviors of covert contracts and resentment have caused a lot of this. Thoughts on how to implement a 180 here?

2)Lack of trust in me from her - This is a new thing that came about due to my discovering her online activities and the snooping I did to confirm. How does one build this type of trust?

3)Controlling/possessive - I have not asked her what she's doing, where she is going, how she is spending $$ given for kids etc. I think that letting her make her own decisions and live her life independently and my detachment will address this. Trying not to be a "Mr. Fix-it" and offering suggestions/advice when not asked for it. Simply going to validate if given the change (not many chances though, I think her guilt keeps her from opening up to me about her daily life). Unfortunately, my cutting her off financially is really pissing her off and when we do have any conflicts it is about her wanting her 1/2 of the assets now. I told her not until the proper time in D settlement. I think that a more clear boundary might help here to prevent her from asking. Just not sure what type of consequences to attach.


Personal 180's:

1) Exercise and more active lifestyle
2) New clothes and taking more pride in my appearance
3) Be more social / GAL

[sandi2]

1) Lack of Trust in Her - Unfortunately, I have always been a "trust but verify" guy, and my "Mr. Nice guy" behaviors of covert contracts and resentment have caused a lot of this. Thoughts on how to implement a 180 here?

I think your timing is a little off with this one. I mean, she is involved with another man! She can't be trusted as long as she is wayward.......period. When a WW commits actions that questions her trustworthiness, it is her responsibility to earn your trust again. Most WW's will try to twist things around and make the issue about her not trusting the LBH, and if he falls for that b.s. then he will make a foolish mistake. IMO, you need to focus on something else, other than trying to make yourself trust an untrustworthy W.

2)Lack of trust in me from her - This is a new thing that came about due to my discovering her online activities and the snooping I did to confirm. How does one build this type of trust?

Forget it. This is the b.s. I am talking about. She was the one in the wrong, but she is making you feel that you have to prove that she can trust you,........ b/c you caught her! You need to stay balanced. If you start acting as if you have to prove trustworthiness to her.....you have given her a weapon to use over & over. She is the guilty party here, not you!

So, scratch these two and find something else. Find something that improves you as a man. It doesn't have to be in relationship to her. IMHO, this is about you and how to improve yourself, and starting out by improving yourself as an individual. Then you can focus on your connections with others.

[cubebot]

Hi Sandi2,

You are correct. I was trying to address the issues in our R prior to her EA, but you are right, we are past that now. If/when she makes a statement about her not trusting me should I simply validate with something like, "I am sorry that you feel that way" (would love some other thoughts on validation statements) or should I assert myself and not let her play the victim. Based on Rule #23, I am thinking I should just validate.

Thank you for reminding me that right now my 180's are for the most part about making myself a better person for me.

[Squiggy]

Cube...Piece of advice? Stop trying so hard to manipulate your WW.

Thought about you and your repetitious wall to head movements (read that in a caring tone) this weekend. Let's talk about the concept of inaction. It really is a kind of misnomer in DBing. When we talk about inaction, not doing a thing, it is about not trying to push the MR forward. If you look at the DB book, sandi's rules, and much of the advice here, people say DON'T PUSH. Really hard to miss it when you take a second and look. But what do LBSs do without a second thought? Yeah, you guessed it. Guess what I see you trying your hardest to do? Bet you guess that one as well.

A lot of your boundaries, your most recent 180s (as sandi pointed out), and some of your planned interactions are aimed at the crazy game of trying to get a reaction of WW or to push your MR forward. Is it a stretch for me to say that every time you try you get a negative push back? Goodness knows I tried in the beginning. Cheeseless tunnel.

Time to follow a path of inaction. The ONLY things you should be doing towards the MR with your WW is to establish, strengthen, or reinforce boundaries. Remember that these are about respect and personal values. sandi's rules are about detaching, keeping the door open, and getting space to breathe. Other than that? Drop the rope.

Now, the other side of inaction is about the actions you are to be taking.

Find something that improves you as a man. It doesn't have to be in relationship to her.

Forget your WW for 15-30 minutes, and I want you to write. Put the pen to paper and go. Don't stop until time is up. Write about the things you love about yourself. Then write about the things you should change. Maybe highlight the qualities of men you admire. Then write about the kind of father you want to be.

Really pour your heart and soul into this. It should not contain references to WW or anyone else. This is about YOU. On your deathbed the only guaranteed person to be there is you. Do this for yourself.

[cubebot]

Friends, Family in adversity and strangers united by pain,

I come to you in this post not in anger but at a crossroad. I know that the advice that you post is honest, insightful and valid. I know that the wisdom you bring to this conversation is wisdom learned in pain, self-reflection and personal experience. I know that I must drop the rope and release myself from the insanity of trying to change a decision that was not mine when made. I know that the one I love is following her wayward heart, but that they don't understand "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it? -Jeremiah 17:9

I sincerely hope that anyone who had posted or reads my thread for the first time will give me their thoughts on what I am about to say. Sandi2 and Squiggy your advice and constant wisdom has truly been a blessing bestowed upon me. Txhubby, Thornton, Last, Fade, Broke, Cadet and anyone else who has read or commented I cannot thank you enough for taking a few minutes from your life to reflect upon my current sitch.

I have already learned and will continue to learn so many things about myself that I would never have if not given this opportunity for wisdom. This experience has brought me closer to god and taught me things about myself that I know will allow me to be a better person and more importantly a better father for the rest of my days.

I do know that a divorce is in my near future. There is no confusion in what my WW wants nor any delays in her actions to get there. She needs one final piece of information to file and I am now prepared to give her. I also know that D will not define me as a man, father, friend or as a stranger passing on the street. I know that the lord will provide a bright future for me and my children even if it is not the one i original thought was mine to be lived.

I used to look at my wife and see no wrong. Someone who radiated love, warmth, beauty and compassion. I see none of that now. I see guilt, anger, resentment, confusion, immaturity, selfishness, and darkness. Not in a way entirely reflected at me but in a person lost in life. A person consumed by unhappiness in herself and unable to understand why. A person desperately searching for happiness but seeking it in all the wrong places. I see someone who out of shame or guilt or maybe even disgust for me cannot even look me in the eyes to say hello, but I know I am not to blame for this. I feel sorry for this person whom I know that I cannot help, for this person who would rather die of thirst than accept a glass of water from me.

On 3/4 I posted something that I wanted to tell my WW. It has been a constant thought on my mind since. At first they were words that I guess I thought were going to get a reaction from her. Words I thought would change my sitch, words that were mostly just that, Words. I know know that they are the truth. I don't want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with me. Someone who puts their own interests and worldly pleasures above the family which god gave to use. Before the children we were blessed with to raise, love, encourage and shepherd to serve gods will. My WW is sick and lost. I made a vow to love her in sickness and in health and I intend to honor that. I will never stop praying that she is forgiven for her actions and that I will see her in heaven one day if it is that we are not to be together again on this earth. I am not saying that I don't want to rebuild what has been broken or that I cannot find forgiveness in my heart should she only truly want to receive it.

I have been a man of inaction. A man who thought he was choosing his battles wisely, but never even fought the war. I want to make my reasons know for why I will not delay, postpone or stand in the way of her if she chooses a D. I will however stand up and do what I know is right for my children.

I know that my WW knows that I am aware of her true feelings for the OM but maybe not with the certainty that I do. Yet neither her feelings of "love" nor he has ever been discussed since the separation for her sexual activities online. Since she left they have only furthered their interactions and it is no longer "just a game". I don't know if she thinks she is trying to protect me from the truth, doesn't want to admit it to herself or if she has other motives for her reasons to not discuss the "elephant in the room".

I also feel that I am not respecting myself as a man to allow her to think that I simply accept the ridiculous reasons for why we're are at this crossroads in our life. The reasons that are valid, my insecurities as a husband which were discussed in the past have not even been mentioned since separation. I do accept my faults and am willing to admit my part for the issues that got us here today, but I do NOT accept my reaction to her actions of blatant disrespect and infidelity as the reason for divorce. I do not accept her "virtually" bringing this OM into our home mere feet from our children.

I am going to be revising the "speech" that I originally plagiarized from Gucci to reflect my soul. I don't know if it is selfish, foolish, immature, or just plain stupid to say what I want to say, and I don't really know what I expect it to change by saying it. I do know that I strongly feel that I will regret not having said it one day by continuing to be a man of inaction by burying my head in the sand and waiting/hoping for this to get better. I think this is more about respect for myself than anything else. I plan on posting a summary by this time tomorrow and I hope to get your thoughts.

My goals for this is not to place blame or shame but are to 1) assert myself 2) respect myself 3) Speak up for myself 4) let her know that I accept this D because I am not willing to live in an open M 5) "speak now or forever hold your peace" and I ain't going to carry this for the rest of my life. 6) lay a foundation for my future actions should D occur. Unfortunately; I don't think this is possible without creating some feelings of shame or guilt which ultimately will probably be expressed as anger towards me.

I would love thoughts or guidance based on this post from you all to read as I draft this "declaration of my feelings" tomorrow. Followed by any recommendations to minimize negativity once i post it tomorrow night or Thursday AM. 2x4's are also welcome (stole that from Squiggy) but I really fell compelled to do this. I pray to god for him not to allow me to stand in the way of his plans for me and I value your input on if/how to deliver this message. I know that I received input prior not to do this, but i wanted to elaborate further on why I want to do this.

I view this almost as a eulogy for my M and something I want to walk away from no longer feeling the need to explain myself.

Aside from your feedback my Questions for your are:

1) is inaction the best course? To simply watch her walk away leave under this cloud of lies and deceit about her feelings for OM?

2) Is it best to simply drop the rope and let them find out in their own time that there is no one on the other end should they decide to check?

3) Would you not respect someone for saying with conviction that they won't stand in the way of your free will but that they don't accept it to be treated this way?

4) How will a WW react when confronted not with anger but with an "open door" and disappointment for their choices?

5) What questions should I be asking myself?


God bless you all,

-Cubebot

Do not go gentle into that good night

By: Dylan Thomas

Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless, me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

[Maximus]

Hi CB,

I read up on your situation and have a few comments you should think about:

1) I am not the most religious person granted. But I would suggest you leave religion out of this as well as poetry. Each one has his own way of dealing with adversity but your problem will only be solved by you with your head screwed on straight.

2) Why is it that when men are BD their idea of GAL and detaching is focusing on kids, cleaning the house and going to the gym? Sandi wrote previously on another post that interaction was more important. I also believe that. How you interact with your W is more important than how you interact with kids or how clean you leave the house. If you did have a bad relation with your kids then by all means work on that but for your R with them not to get W back. As for house cleaning or staying at home I dont think when your W looks at you she will judge you on how clean the fridge is.

3) Most of the LBH that have been called controlling and jealous by their wives generally are. It is true about not believing all that they say nor what they do. However on this do take note. You do have that pattern.

4) Your irregular thoughts and actions are also textbook if you read enough posts. I too went through the phases of wanting to do anything to get them back, act illogically to want to be the one divorcing them. This is you wanting to provoke a reaction, generally because you are not controlling the situation. The situation is following a course and timeline different to what you want so you want to nudge it a bit and as it does not work you frustration creeps in and you jump around to extremes.

5) You need to stop focusing on her and start focusing on yourself. I know you read it a lot here. Do you know what it actually means? You say you have learned and are learning things about yourself? What have you learned? Have you changed your way of thinking? have you adapted to this new knowledge? How has having a WW bring you closer to god? You say it has taught you be a better person and father what about partner?

6) Stop "knowing" this and that. You say you know how this will end but leave many options open, you say you know what your WW wants but you know about not believing their words or actionsand that not even they know what they want (as you say later ... she is a person lost), you then go on to describe someone you assume is your wife and what is going on in her mind when here you are taught to not do that. You know what she feels for the OM. Really how?

7) You intend to love her in sickness and in health but want to facilitate or get a D?

I think you should get back to basics. Stop trying to control the situation or find logic in it. There is none. That is why you have to concentrate on yourself first for your own sake and that of your children.

I thought I knew a lot of things until I realized I did not. The issue was that by stepping a back and letting everything unfold I saw the bigger picture. I was not affected as deeply by her actions. I expected them. I began to anticipate her actions and situations. I stood my ground and stopped trying to control everything. I started setting up the boundaries and controlling my own life.

It seems to be working. I cannot fix her nor make her happy. I believe we are piecing but still let her try and resolve the issues she has. She is still suffering internally, she tries to remedy bad decisions we made in the past. I just stand by in case I can help but my life is still my own.

I see her as what she is. A woman. Like me imperfect and trying to get it together. She no longer is the woman I knew years ago so I am starting to learn about this new person. Discover new things and act accordingly.

You need to accept that your WW is WW and judge her for what she is now and with all the crap that will follow. If she does sleep with OM or not does not matter unless a PA is a deal breaker for you. Your main concern should be you have lost her. You are not in her heart so whatever she does she is doing as an emotionally free person.

Hope these points are of help

Peace

Max

[CWOL]

Listen to Max, he's right about your speech

[Squiggy]

Max, seriously amazing post. Love reading the advice you give.

Ok, cube. I'll try and answer some of your questions from my point of view.

1. Yes. Let her experience the consequences for her own actions. However, you should not be in an overall inaction phase. Work on yourself - the only thing you can control.

2. Dropping the rope does not mean calling it quits, if you don't want it to. For you and your pattern of trying to control this situation, dropping the rope or detaching, whichever way you want to put it, will be the most healthy for you at this time.

3. Your boundaries should be establishing respect.

4. Depends on how you present it. Say you are disappointed, and you might as well hang your hat. Say you didn't agree with her choices and yet can see why, you have a shot (this part has quite a bit to deal with you growing from this experience and truly seeing what contributed to the downfall of your M).

5. Why do I HAVE to control this situation and try and move it forward???? Am I really following the advice of the people on this board and implementing their suggestions (Maximus just gave you an excellent summary of 9 pages of you beating your head against a wall. Use it!)?

I get you wanting to push and make this move forward. I really do. I got so much backlash from people here urging me to stop, STFU, and listen. I got the rough side of sandi before as well. I'm beyond glad I listened. I really wish you would as well.

You know I'm direct and action-oriented. Damn near border on being a spitfire. BUT the DB focus of actions vs. your focus of actions are in conflict. I choose the DB side, because it is the side that will have a chance of working.