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A Message from Michele
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It's been 3 months since the bomb drop. We've been living in separate rooms in the house since then. Getting along fairly well. At first she was very indifferent to me, would barely give me the time of day. Now she is mostly friendly to me. (I think it has something to do with my 27 year old son got on her case and told her to stop being so mean to me, thank you son!)
who really knows? But really, you needed your son to fight your battles for you here? And you are pleased that she is willing to be "friendly" to you out of some sort of obligation?

Anyway, I've been using my new communications skills, listening intently... I've done everything I can to do my 180s, Act-as-ifs, haven't been so good on the Get a Life, because inside I'm just depressed and going out actually makes me more depressed....
i don't know...but I worry that if you are depressed, it isn't as hard as you think it may be to tell it looking in. Yes, GAL is hard and uncomfortable and sometimes a little sad at first. But it's one of the MOST important aspects of the DB process. I believe that your self-worth is still so tied up in your marriage. By doing the GAL "thing", you learn how to survive and how to THRIVE without your W there to hold your hand.

Anyway, she has bought a house and now she is moving out. There are boxes everywhere... she's on the phone with the electric company... and in a week I'll be alone in this big house for a week at a time (then a week with the younger boys). this is bringing me down. way down.
yeah. This [censored]. Not much you can do about. But sitting around staring at the boxes feeling sorry for yourself is not going to help anything. Get out and do something for you.

I'm trying to tell myself that she was never going to come back until she moved out to see if the grass is greener. so this is a necessary step before she can ever come back. am i fooling myself? I am physically nauseous. I just can't act-as-if when I feel this crappy inside.
who knows what she might need to turn around. From what I can gather, she needs to experience the "fall" to understand what she is really giving up. She has to leave the nest and really discover that she doesn't like it out in the real world. She may or she may not. That said, on your end, you have hot to stop waiting to see what she is going to do. You are giving her WAY too much power over you.

I look out the window and see couples holding hands.... Everything seems depressing.

I don't even know why I'm posting here.
i know you felt "beat up" the last time you posted here. A lot of people with far more experience than I have we're fairly blunt. I believe you are posting here because you know that they were right. You tried your own version of DBing, and it didn't help you or your situation.

I'm grasping at straws... Is there anything encouraging anyone can tell me? Do some women actually ever come back after they move out?
sure. But they aren't going to come back to someone that is moping around the big empty house. They aren't going to come back to the same marriage that they were already in.

She just informed me she's taking the (younger) kids out to a movie and I said I want to come. Any chance to be together before she moves out, I will grab. Better than sitting at home and crying. And I will act-as-if, especially when the kids are around.
so she's doing all of this to you, and you're interested in last gasp movies where you may get to sit near her and gaze longingly towards her? Where is your sense of self here? I get it. I was there. And I got the same words I'm giving you now.

But this is so hard. It's been three months and I don't feel any better. And the next few weeks/months are going to be even worse. Poo. frown
weve all been there. It is hard. It does suck. In fact, it [censored] a LOT. but sitting around and saying "it's hard" and "it [censored]" isn't going to get you anywhere. It's time to ACTUALLY start detaching. It's time to start living for YOU. THAT is what will make you feel better.

You can do it. It's going to be hard either way. Why not use this gift of time for good?

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I'm going to go out on a limb here. I have to admit, sometimes I question how everything has to be so absolute here.

I understand the principles and I agree with them. But there is not only one narrow path getting your wife back. Sometimes people change their mind, without the left-behind spouse ever reading the DB book or knowing or following any of the rules here. And the truth is, for many who do follow the rules, their spouse does not come back.
there is no guarantee of your wife changing her mind at any point of this. You could DB perfectly and fail at reconciling your marriage and you could DB for [censored] and succeed. There's no way to know.

But let's say you're playing blackjack and you get dealt a 16 to the dealer's face up 7. It's a losing hand. That's where you are today. You could hit and win, you could hit and lose, you could stay and win,and you could stay and lose. regardless of the outcome! there is still a CORRECT play. Hitting in this spot still wins more than staying, even if you win either one less than 50% of the time.

That's one thing that we are doing here: Playing the odds in the face of a losing hand.
The side effect to doing this is that YOU always come out a winner either way. Whether or not your wife comes back, you will find yourself in a position to be ready to succeed in your next relationship. You will be able to HEAL from the damage here. Sounds like a win-win to me.


I'm just not going to be able to follow all the rules here perfectly after she moves out. We have kids. For their sake, I have to communicate with my wife. I can't play games and not answer her text messages. We have agreed that maintaining a friendship is in the best interests of the kids. And we both want to be friends. Does that destroy my chances of getting back together in a relationship? I don't think so. If we are not relating and I'm trying to have "no contact" I don't think this serves the kids well. She has said she wants to have dinner together as a family once a week. I'm not going to say no to this. I will not go out of my way to follow her around and initiate contact daily, but I have to maintain contact and communicate about the kids, and we will be at kids' soccer games together and so forth. AND I also believe, in spite of what I have read here sometimes, that a friendship is one way to rekindle our appreciation of each other. I believe a friendship is a way for her to observe my 180s.
Yes. Friendship can be one path back to R. There are certainly stories out there of succeeding in this manner. And it's not like you're going to go 2 years without speaking, and then she's going to come running back to you.

And yes, you will need to communicate about kid related stuff. You just cannot go completely dark when you have kids. It's just not possible. And I agree that you need to maintain a cordial relationship for the children.

With that said, are you kidding me with the rest of this? You're going to have "family dinners" once a week? What are you going to do when she starts dating? Have a "family dinner" and then she's going to go off for dessert while you take the kids back to your place? The more you show her you can't live without her, the more she is going to take advantage of you.


As an example, some friends of ours went through a break up a few years ago. The wife decided it was time to go. She got another place to live. But they remained friends and their daughter kept them interacting... After a few months of living separately, the wife changed her mind and wanted to get back together. By this time the husband wasn't sure if he wanted her back. They spent a lot of time going back and forth, deciding what to do. But the wife had definitely changed. During this time I saw them together a lot, at the ski slopes with their child, at parties even dancing together. They are still living separately now but they are friends. I think if the husband decides he wants her back she would still consider it.

The reason I give this story is, it shows that there is no prescription that applies to every situation. The husband didn't know about DB and he didn't follow all the rules, and he maintained a friendship, and she turned around after a few months.

So, forgive me if I don't follow all the rules to the letter here once my W moves out. I have an example close to me where the Wayward Wife change her mind, while the two of them maintained a friendship and they were not aware of the DB rules
you can read what I said above. I believe this is playing a hand based on the outcome and not the process. But that's your call.

I DO agree with the LRT principles. And I do think they are good to follow in general and I have learned a lot here. If I hadn't found this place I probably would still be overtly pursuing her and begging her and she would have pushed me away much further than I am now. I'm sure that with my friends, the husband did stop pursuing the wife before she came back and I understand that principle. and I understand my wife is not going to change her mind while I'm pursuing and chasing her, so I have stopped doing this overtly. The decision has to come from inside her, not from my pressure. But I don't think we can say that the only path to reconciliation is by playing a "no contact" game and not maintaining a friendship, and I don't think that is in the interests of the kids. I think it's possible to be friends and not pursue, which is the important thing. I think in some cases, some contact can be good, depending on the situation, especially if there are kids. If I maintain a friendship with my wife after she moves out and have dinner with her and the kids once a week and I'm displaying my 180s during that time, but not overtly pursuing her, does that destroy my chance of getting her back? I don't think so.
i believe nothing "destroys" your chances of getting her back. But if it were me (and it kinda is...), I would want to do what would give me the best chance. I think you are over-simplifying by saying its "games". The no-contact is not really just for her. It's also for YOU. How are you going to be able to move forward with your life if you are constantly in contact, having family dinners and such?

For now I just have to get through the physical act of her moving out and accepting life without her. That is going to be extremely difficult. these last 3 months have already been the hardest of my life, and this is going to be even worse. The thought of having no contact at all after that is just a bit more than I can handle.
yes. It is going to be hard. It's going to be even harder if you're spending your week counting down the days until you see your W again.

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Gabs -

Your perception of the system is the only thing absolute. MWD says over and over do what works. That itself is a fluid concept and not absolute.

Of course you can't go no contact with kids. But you can go no response on all text/voicemails/concerns that don't pertain to kids. You can withdraw from some of those inquiries. Unless of course she complains repeatedly that you withdraw. Than perhaps doing what works would be to engage (picking certain topics and keeping it light).

It is about doing what works and testing different things to see if they work.

I have read a lot of success stories and only once did someone "befriend" their way back to a marriage. In general I don't think it is a concept that works but it may work for you, if you believe it fits. And you test it appropriately to see if you get the results you are looking for.

Knowledge is power. Read and educate yourself. Also re-evaluate how you contributed and put a lot of pressure on yourself to clean those areas up.


Me: 32 W: 29 T:8 M: 6 D4 S2
M - 8/2008
W is not happy - 1/2014
W wants D - 9/2014
W moved out - 11/2014
D filed - 1/23/2015
D'ed - 2/25/2015
Gave X the Letter - 11/10/2015
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Hi Gabs.
I would like you to Google something "DBT"
I really think you would benefit from this.

If you want a glimpse of a what your future may very well look like if you continue your path, read my thread.

Last edited by jp787; 10/04/15 03:41 AM.

M46,W41
D16,D18
M22,T25
BD 11/12
W moved out 01/13
Piecing 10/13
Divorced 01/15
"Whether you worry or not has no affect on the outcome. But, moving forward, letting go, and making changes can."
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I appreciate the responses.

JP787, I looked up DBT. I don't think I'm that bad. I am not suicidal. I am seeing a therapist, doesn't seem to be helping much... but I'm not sure I need that level of care at this point. to be clear, my 180s are very real and in some respects I'm doing better than I was before this all started. While some people with depression turn to alcohol, I haven't had a drink since she dropped the bomb. When I start to feel like crap, I go for a run, or a bike ride, or I do 50 pushups.


Azzork, I appreciate your input. there are a few things I don't think you understand. First, my wife does not observe me moping around the house. One thing I have done a VERY good job of is Act-as-if. I am happy, especially when she is around. I have also done a good job of not pursuing. Only a couple times have I communicated anything to her about our relationship at all, and it was mainly an apology, nothing asking her to change her mind. I don't think she is being friendly to me out of obligation. I think she is doing it because she cares about me. She has changed her tune from the beginning. At first she was very indifferent, didn't want to talk with me, and she wanted to complete the divorce process as quickly as possible. Since then, and yes our son talking to her did have something to do with it I think, she has changed her tune. She still hasn't filed any paperwork and she actually told me that she is only going to file for separation now, not divorce, so that I can stay on her health insurance plan. She even said she would promise not to file for divorce for at least a year, and after that if neither of us still want to marry someone else, she would promise it for another year. She really has changed her tune. A part of me is thinking, she is taking a deep breath and slowing down after the initial process, during which she told herself "don't look back" and "don't let him make you change your mind this time." Now that she bought a house there is no turning back even if she wanted to. Maybe she has noticed my 180s and my commitment and willingness to change, has been reminded of my positive attributes, and she wants to let this play out for a while before she does anything permanent. Who knows. But I have felt a shift in how she relates to me and I don't think it is just guilt and obligation.

As far as having dinner together once a week goes. I'm sorry I don't see this as "taking advantage of me." I think it is good for the kids to continue to have a good friendly relationship. I think there is a way to be friends and have dinner together and still keep a distance. I can leave when dinner is over and not stick around until she says it's time to go.

As far as her dating, I can't say... but she has told me, and our counselor, several times that she is not interested in another relationship right now and I believe her. In fact I think if she wanted to see someone else she would tell me immediately because that would show me she's not coming back and I would give up. But she has said that after 30 years of being in a relationship she needs to take a break. I believe her.

I realize I'm not doing all this DB stuff exactly right. Maybe I would have gotten her back already if I followed the rules better. BUT, I do get the idea and I am integrating the concepts into my plan and outlook. I am not pursuing. I am acting very happy around her. Once she moves out I will contact her much less than I would have if I didn't learn about all this here.

Even though I am still hoping to get her back, I am open to dating others, and I have poked around on some dating websites. Even though this is not really part of the DB concept, I believe this will help me move on and detach, and I believe it can also turn the tides in the relationship "judo" that I've read about. I have another friend's story, where the wife initiated the divorce and was SURE she was doing the right thing UNTIL her husband finally gave up and found another person, at which point she questioned what she was doing and wanted him back. I can't ignore these real life stories from my friends... I'm not saying that my dating is solely a manipulative move to try to get her to do something. It would help me heal and feel like I will have a life after her if it doesn't work. It's a light at the end of the tunnel for me, just thinking about dating or finding someone else someday. And it would also show her that I am moving on and she would stop feeling like I'm pursuing her.

Anyway, I'm not trying to buck the system here. As I have said many times, I have learned a lot here and I have integrated many of the concepts and I continue to do so. When in doubt I make every effort to lean towards the principles I learned here. Thanks.

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I'm glad you are not suicidal, yet I don't see the connection with DBT.


M46,W41
D16,D18
M22,T25
BD 11/12
W moved out 01/13
Piecing 10/13
Divorced 01/15
"Whether you worry or not has no affect on the outcome. But, moving forward, letting go, and making changes can."
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Azzork, I appreciate your input. there are a few things I don't think you understand. First, my wife does not observe me moping around the house. One thing I have done a VERY good job of is Act-as-if. I am happy, especially when she is around. I understand this. Im not necessarily saying that you are moping. But as Sandi mentions often, there is a difference between acting detached/indifferent/pleasant and bubbly happy (which is easy to see through. So, theres a fine balance. Im not saying you are leaning one way or another...just something to watch for.

I have also done a good job of not pursuing. Only a couple times have I communicated anything to her about our relationship at all, and it was mainly an apology, nothing asking her to change her mind.
Pursuing doesnt only mean R talks. I dont know exactly what you are doing, but things like tagging along to the movies to spend last ditch time with her IS pursuing.

I don't think she is being friendly to me out of obligation. I think she is doing it because she cares about me. She has changed her tune from the beginning. At first she was very indifferent, didn't want to talk with me, and she wanted to complete the divorce process as quickly as possible. Since then, and yes our son talking to her did have something to do with it I think, she has changed her tune. She still hasn't filed any paperwork and she actually told me that she is only going to file for separation now, not divorce, so that I can stay on her health insurance plan. She even said she would promise not to file for divorce for at least a year, and after that if neither of us still want to marry someone else, she would promise it for another year. She really has changed her tune. A part of me is thinking, she is taking a deep breath and slowing down after the initial process, during which she told herself "don't look back" and "don't let him make you change your mind this time." Now that she bought a house there is no turning back even if she wanted to. Maybe she has noticed my 180s and my commitment and willingness to change, has been reminded of my positive attributes, and she wants to let this play out for a while before she does anything permanent. Who knows. But I have felt a shift in how she relates to me and I don't think it is just guilt and obligation.
I dont KNOW, but this sounds like you putting your own expectations and such on her actions. Being friendly does not necessarily indicate progress towards R. I wrote to Mutatio this morning that if his wife were having generic, pleasant conversation, that is a signal of indifference, but leaving the room, ignoring him, etc would be a sign of anger. I am worried that you are reading indifference and detachment as friendship. I dont KNOW. But thats my fear for you.

As for her promises, I wouldnt hang your hat on them. They may be real, but in my opinion, words are wind. It's easy to say "I promise Ill wait a year". Its a lot harder to DO it after you meet "Mr. Right". So, again, I wouldnt wait around watching and hoping for her to change her mind.


As far as having dinner together once a week goes. I'm sorry I don't see this as "taking advantage of me." I think it is good for the kids to continue to have a good friendly relationship. I think there is a way to be friends and have dinner together and still keep a distance. I can leave when dinner is over and not stick around until she says it's time to go.
I suppose thats your call. Lets say you have this choice:

90% remain friends, 5% reconcile, 5% enemies
-or-
20% remain friends, 40% reconcile, 40% enemies

(of course this is a complete exaggeration of percentages, but bear with me)

It feels like you are choosing option A. Im not saying its a good or bad choice. That is up to you. But, I think thats the path you are on.


As far as her dating, I can't say... but she has told me, and our counselor, several times that she is not interested in another relationship right now and I believe her. In fact I think if she wanted to see someone else she would tell me immediately because that would show me she's not coming back and I would give up. But she has said that after 30 years of being in a relationship she needs to take a break. I believe her.
That could be. Im not saying she is in one now or intending to be in one. But I think you are being naive if you think it will never happen. It is possible though. My W said similar things, and the day our agreement was signed told me "officially" that she was dating OM. It makes me nervous for you that you are hanging onto this "family" activity while she could be at the same time entertaining OM(s)

I realize I'm not doing all this DB stuff exactly right. Maybe I would have gotten her back already if I followed the rules better. BUT, I do get the idea and I am integrating the concepts into my plan and outlook. I am not pursuing. I am acting very happy around her. Once she moves out I will contact her much less than I would have if I didn't learn about all this here.
Who knows if things would be different now had you been more standard. Thats not really the point.

Honestly, my concern is not about your R with her, my concern is about YOU. Youve been "here" for a while, and yet you came back posting about grasping at straws and feeling depressed and so on. The ultimate objective in adhering to DB is to resurrect YOU. The detachment isnt to get your W back, it's to allow you the space to grow into the best you that can ATTRACT her back. By only going partway, you are setting yourSELF up for failure in the long run.


Even though I am still hoping to get her back, I am open to dating others, and I have poked around on some dating websites. Even though this is not really part of the DB concept, I believe this will help me move on and detach, and I believe it can also turn the tides in the relationship "judo" that I've read about. I have another friend's story, where the wife initiated the divorce and was SURE she was doing the right thing UNTIL her husband finally gave up and found another person, at which point she questioned what she was doing and wanted him back. I can't ignore these real life stories from my friends... I'm not saying that my dating is solely a manipulative move to try to get her to do something. It would help me heal and feel like I will have a life after her if it doesn't work. It's a light at the end of the tunnel for me, just thinking about dating or finding someone else someday. And it would also show her that I am moving on and she would stop feeling like I'm pursuing her.
Let me get this straight, you want to date someone else to help you HEAL? I dont see how thats right. You need to heal BEFORE you start dating someone else, or you will just wind up hurting them. It isnt the next girl's job to fix you....it is YOUR job. Remember the adage "hurt people hurt people."

Anyway, I'm not trying to buck the system here. As I have said many times, I have learned a lot here and I have integrated many of the concepts and I continue to do so. When in doubt I make every effort to lean towards the principles I learned here. Thanks.
Im not trying to be a hardass. Im not trying to give you [censored] for "doing things wrong". Heck, Im by no means an expert or a "vet" around here. Im trying to relate my own experiences to you. Ive BEEN where you are, and I tried some of the same stuff you are saying. Im trying to relay what actually WORKED in allowing me to become the person I am today.

#2616259 10/16/15 12:43 AM
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Something is happening and I'm worried about it.

My wife moved out 6 days ago. Our plan was to remain friends, and have dinner together with the kids once a week. People here have advised me to not push for being friends, and to back off as much as possible. In this first week in separate houses, I have not called her, emailed, or texted her. I saw her once at the kid's soccer game and we chatted for a few minutes. That's it.

Today she called to talk to the boys. My parents were here visiting, which she was unaware of. She was very close to my parents. I told her my parents were here, just because I didn't want to seem like I was hiding it, and I figured the boys might mention it to her. I could tell in her voice, she was a little shaken that they were here and she didn't even know. I asked her a question and there was a pause before she could answer, I think she was choked up.

She said, "I have to say, something has changed about you." I asked what she meant. She said the week went by and I didn't call to ask about our plan to have dinner together as a family as we had discussed. She said it was obvious that I was changing. I said I don't mean to be changing, and I do still want to have dinner together but I think I need a week or two with the new living arrangements before I'm ready for it. She said that was fine.

Then she asked if the boys could come over to her house on Sunday, which is supposed to be my day, just for a short visit. she wanted to make sure they knew which house was hers when they get off the bus and to see what their new rooms look like. I thought for a second and thought about DB. I said I guess it is OK, but didn't we agree that they would stay with me for the week and couldn't they just take the bus home to her house on Monday as planned? She said OK, that's fine, she'll pick them up at school. I think part of it was that she wanted the kids to see her house but I wonder if she was just missing them. Then she said again that I was changing. I said I was just trying to give her the space I thought she wanted. I asked her what she meant again and she said, it's OK, we don't have to discuss it, but it was obvious, and that she should have expected it. I said OK, do you want to talk to the kids then? and she said yes, so I put the kids on the phone.... It felt very uncomfortable.

I'm not sure how to interpret this. I was doing everything I could to back off, and live the DB way. I didn't call to arrange the dinner. I didn't call at all. I didn't initiate any contact. She obviously noticed, and the fact that my parents were here visiting without her knowledge also evoked something in her.

Maybe this is having the desired effect....Maybe she is missing my parents and sad that they don't want to see her. maybe she is missing the kids. Maybe she didn't like being alone for a week. But I'm worried that my backing off is really going to push her away. She said she should have expected it. I am worried that she's going to just push forward, and it might even make things easier for her, knowing that I'm not trying to pull her back anymore. I'm worried that my backing off is going to make a wall between us and she is going to move further away from me. Now she can break off completely, stop worrying about how I'm doing... .another step "forward."

A part of me wants to send her an email tonight and say that we should plan our first dinner together. I could continue with my plan to be "friends without pursuit" but not back off so much that I'm being aloof and avoiding contact. I don't like the way it feels and I'm worried that it's pushing her away. She was going to go to the Farmer's Market tomorrow where my band is playing and now she said she won't come, I guess because she assumes my parents will be there and it would be weird. Or maybe because I am backing off so much she feels uncomfortable around me now. I think being friends without pursuit might have been safer and better. Maybe I'm backing off too much and it's going to backfire.

What do you think?

Thanks.

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Hi Gabs...sorry you find yourself in that situation. We all know how painful that can be.

A few thoughts...

Quote:
I'm not sure how to interpret this.


I would avoid trying to interpret anything. You could drive yourself crazy doing that and will be right back where you are. The only way forward is forward, on your own. Detach, GAL, do some 180s...the thing that has always helped me here has been to try and shake it off so that I can set an example for my kids and lead them through this confusing time.

You'll feel much better doing that.

Quote:
I don't like the way it feels and I'm worried that it's pushing her away


Nobody likes the way it feels, because the way it feels stinks. But it's not pushing her away. She knows where you are.

But non-pursuit doesn't mean you can't respond if/when the spouse brings some things up. As MWD says, it's ok to be loving in return just not overly excited or enthusiastic. Let your W bring it up though.

MWD on last resort technique:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/blog/how-to-prevent-a-divorce-the-last-resort-technique/

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Not sure if it is the way you wrote the scenario but I look at it positively. That you cracked her fog. Not saying that you should get overly excited or even think things will change but just my take on it. If I was you it would drive me to d more of the same. You have to make her initiate the conversations about relationship or th dinners. Do not pursue!


M 37
W 34

T 12
M 8
D 7
S 4

Need break 4/12/15
W no ring 7/7/15

Separate room 4/12/15
Separate living suggested 8/15
W moved out 11/1/15
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