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A Message from Michele
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Maximus Offline OP
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Hi Azz,

As usual great comments.

I see that I do have to back off a lot and stop controlling.

It is true I cannot make her happy, just be as you say and hope that with that attitude it helps towards her being happy. But her happiness is I agree up to her.

I am happy she has friends but disappointed that she spends so much time away from home at the gyms, anything where she is needed has to be worked around those hours and as she chooses to not be a player then at least be a cheerleader, otherwise where is the teamwork?

As regards the moving I decided to never again touch the subject until the moment it is imperative that she finally jump off the fence. These kinds of actions require planning in advance, finding a new home, timetable of events, organizing the actual change, etc. At the moment things are still green so input from her is not really necessary at this stage, maybe a little enthusiasm would be appreciated but given the circumstances. When a comment does come up I do include the words us & we and she acknowledges but I leave it at that.

I never thought only she has a choice. We both have a choice to either work it out or not. I chose to work it out with her stay or leave. She has the same choice. What I do not choose is to carry on in a situation where I will continue to be unhappily married. If she wants to continue living her life this way, complain but do nothing about it then fine. It is her choice and I will respect that but not be a part of it. I consider this move that I HAVE to do as a fresh start to try something different for all of us.

So cruel as it may sound, I am doing it since as I said before, I HAVE to and she has to decide whether she wants to come or not. I only have Plan A, she has Plan A & B. The compromise is limited to the options we have. I am willing to listen and discuss any other options she may have that I have not thought of but here is where I go back to the point I made earlier about sitting down and talking.

The teamwork is at present non existent because she is just taking in info without sharing and I am trying to second guess as best I can. There will inevitably come a time when she has to say A,B,C or whatever and from then we can act as a team to reach the goal. Until then the left hand does not know what the right is thinking.

I agree that her silence may not mean she is clueless nor depressed and that I may come off as controlling her attitude but for the good part of these 2 years she has neglected basic duties that I have had to take over to avoid problems like forcing her to renew her licence otherwise we would have problems with the insurance company. I had to force her to do it telling her of the legal consequences if she drove without a valid licence and that it was either that or not touch the car. I then had to organize the medical, etc. The teamwork should have been her telling me she needs to do it so and if I could help her organize it because i handle these matters much better. So as you see, I can take her silence, withdrawal, neverending hours in the gym, etc but hey... at least make an effort to have your S's back if you know he is taking the brunt.

Another thing, I am not too convinced about this move and it is affecting me and making me nervous and I have shared this with her. I still think we have a lot to gain by moving but there are many uncertainties which make me nervous and I feel I am hit on all fronts. I have to work on my R and put emotional resources for those bad days when you question everything, I have to put resources on looking at the positive aspects of moving and how it will affect my R, life & S when I also question if it is a good move. I then also have to put emotional resources in trying to do my job as best as I can. I have been given a new challenge with a lot of responsability on my shoulders and cannot let personal problems affect my job.

Some days I feel secure and something happens to make me feel I am making the right decisions but the majority of the time I question every step I take knowing the implications of getting it wrong. After all, I am talking about my Life + Marriage + Career the three pillars we generally base our life in general on.

I try to talk to her and the general reply is it is a good move, it would improve my career and that I should think about me and do what I feel is right. The thing is anything I decide will inevitably affect those around me in a big way.

In final answer to your question, yes, I do think of her as an equal part of our marriage. I just wish she would too regardless of her job status. God knows the times I have and still do consult her and share things. The problem is she doesn't, she keeps her problems to herself doesnt do anything to solve them and then we find ourselves having to cover for her or let her crash and burn and learn the hard way (something you try and avoid if you love someone).

She just carries on with the same routine day in day out.

Today for example is shopping day and I generally pick her up at 11:15 from the gym, take her a coffee and we go do the shopping. She has some problems with her tendons due to over exercise so needs to visit a clinic to cure it for the next 2 weeks and has booked at 11:15 which is when she finishes gym. She asked If I had to do something at 09:00 to which I replied not really and she then said if I could pick her up at 09:00 as she has no class until 10:00 and do some shopping since at 11:15 is clinic time. This p***ed me off. I work from home so yes I can drop everything and leave, no one controls my hours but I politely said it would not give me time to finish off some things. I lied. She did not take it too well. To me she should have said can you pick me up at 09:00 I will skip class so we can do shopping and I can be at 11:15 at the clinic. THEN I would agreed. It is a compromise. She does this constantly, get people to work around her gym hours.

We all are tired of telling her to back off pushing herself, she is not a teenager but a 47 year old woman. Her achilles tendons are on the verge of giving up. She relentlessly continues. If they do snap she cannot do anymore of the stuff she does and will become miserable and again... at home we will have to bear the brunt of her anger.

Try to get her to stop and you are controlling, leave her alone until she falls and then you have to pick up the pieces. it is a no win situation. I told her explicity, if you damage your tendons you will be out for months. If you get a job request you will not be able to walk and will lose the job possibility. This affects us as a family unit since we could do with the money and she could do with a job that she seems to baldy want. In one ear out the other.

Any way glad to get it off my chest

Take care bro


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More Blue!


I see that I do have to back off a lot and stop controlling. Good. Thats a start! wink

It is true I cannot make her happy, just be as you say and hope that with that attitude it helps towards her being happy. But her happiness is I agree up to her.

I am happy she has friends but disappointed that she spends so much time away from home at the gyms, anything where she is needed has to be worked around those hours and as she chooses to not be a player then at least be a cheerleader, otherwise where is the teamwork?

As regards the moving I decided to never again touch the subject until the moment it is imperative that she finally jump off the fence. These kinds of actions require planning in advance, finding a new home, timetable of events, organizing the actual change, etc. At the moment things are still green so input from her is not really necessary at this stage, maybe a little enthusiasm would be appreciated but given the circumstances. When a comment does come up I do include the words us & we and she acknowledges but I leave it at that. I think for now, the best bet is to "act as if" she is going to join you in the end. Positivity breeds positivity. I think the more you poke and ask and prod her, the more likely it is that she gets fed up and decides against it.

I never thought only she has a choice. We both have a choice to either work it out or not. I chose to work it out with her stay or leave. Right, but I believe that choice is fluid. Will you always choose to do that? I think probably not. So I wouldnt be so FINAL with saying "I choose to stay". It forces her into a defensive position right out of the gate. Either shes the bad guy or she chooses something that is currently leaving her unsatisfied. She has the same choice. What I do not choose is to carry on in a situation where I will continue to be unhappily married. So, already, your bold "choice" has conditions. Thats why I think any grand proclamations are only going to hurt you. It isnt quite so black and white. If she wants to continue living her life this way, complain but do nothing about it then fine. It is her choice and I will respect that but not be a part of it. I consider this move that I HAVE to do as a fresh start to try something different for all of us. I notice this a lot in your writing. Feeling like you HAVE to do something. Or are obligated to do something. You are under no obligation to do ANYTHING. You choose to do it. Now, some choices are easier than others: [color:#FF0000]I have this knife in my hand, should I stab myself wit it? yes or no? But you dont HAVE to move for your job. You could quit and find a different job, for example. Im not saying its a good choice. But if you think of things as choices instead of obligations, it will help you, I think. Lets revisit this up ahead. [/color]

So cruel as it may sound, I am doing it since as I said before, I HAVE to and she has to decide whether she wants to come or not. I only have Plan A, she has Plan A & B. Have you read DR? I would recommend reading the section on The Beginner's Mind. I think you could learn a lot. The compromise is limited to the options we have. I am willing to listen and discuss any other options she may have that I have not thought of but here is where I go back to the point I made earlier about sitting down and talking.

The teamwork is at present non existent because she is just taking in info without sharing and I am trying to second guess as best I can. There will inevitably come a time when she has to say A,B,C or whatever and from then we can act as a team to reach the goal. Until then the left hand does not know what the right is thinking. This is fair. But as long as you keep pushing, she is going to stay clammed up. You have to give her the space to process this. As you said, the time to make that decision is still a ways off. So, why do you need to know today?

I agree that her silence may not mean she is clueless nor depressed and that I may come off as controlling her attitude but for the good part of these 2 years she has neglected basic duties that I have had to take over to avoid problems like forcing her to renew her licence otherwise we would have problems with the insurance company. I had to force her to do it telling her of the legal consequences if she drove without a valid licence and that it was either that or not touch the car. So, back to making choices. Do you think that after the second or third time of you reminding her that she didnt know that she needed to do this? You said "if you dont renew your license, you cant drive" right? So what more did you need to do after that? You said: here is a choice you can make. Then you proceeded to make it for her by "forcing" her to renew. She's not a child. She's a grown woman. I then had to organize the medical, etc. The teamwork should have been her telling me she needs to do it so and if I could help her organize it because i handle these matters much better. Huh? Your thought is "she needs to tell me to do it, because I do it better"? I dont follow this. So as you see, I can take her silence, withdrawal, neverending hours in the gym, etc but hey... at least make an effort to have your S's back if you know he is taking the brunt. Im not arguing with you about this. Yes. In a healthy marriage, thats what should happen. But thats not where you are right now. But its good to know what you want.

Another thing, I am not too convinced about this move and it is affecting me and making me nervous and I have shared this with her. I still think we have a lot to gain by moving but there are many uncertainties which make me nervous and I feel I am hit on all fronts. I have to work on my R Nope. No reason to work on that right now. and put emotional resources for those bad days when you question everything, I have to put resources on looking at the positive aspects of moving and how it will affect my R, life & S when I also question if it is a good move. I then also have to put emotional resources in trying to do my job as best as I can. I have been given a new challenge with a lot of responsability on my shoulders and cannot let personal problems affect my job.

Some days I feel secure and something happens to make me feel I am making the right decisions but the majority of the time I question every step I take knowing the implications of getting it wrong. After all, I am talking about my Life + Marriage + Career the three pillars we generally base our life in general on. The never ending self doubt is tough. We're all right there with you. But all we can do is try the best that we can with the tools that we have.

I try to talk to her and the general reply is it is a good move, it would improve my career and that I should think about me and do what I feel is right. The thing is anything I decide will inevitably affect those around me in a big way. You cant predict HOW it will affect them though. So I think she's right. Do what you think is best for you and for your son. Its easy to look back and second guess later. But do what you think is best.

In final answer to your question, yes, I do think of her as an equal part of our marriage. I just wish she would too regardless of her job status. God knows the times I have and still do consult her and share things. The problem is she doesn't, she keeps her problems to herself doesnt do anything to solve them Nope. She is doing something to solve them. Just not what YOU would do or what you WANT her to do. Her solution doesnt match your expctation so you call it doing nothing. and then we find ourselves having to cover for her or let her crash and burn and learn the hard way (something you try and avoid if you love someone). As I said before, you dont HAVE to cover for her. If you act like her father and try to fix all of her troubles, she wont consider you as a husband anymore. Sometimes, I have learned, we need to let them understand that their actions have consequences. I thought I was being a great husband taking care of everything in my M, but I came to realize that by doing everything, she never felt equal, and always thought that I thought less of her. And so resentment on both sides grew.

She just carries on with the same routine day in day out.

Today for example is shopping day and I generally pick her up at 11:15 from the gym, take her a coffee and we go do the shopping. She has some problems with her tendons due to over exercise so needs to visit a clinic to cure it for the next 2 weeks and has booked at 11:15 which is when she finishes gym. She asked If I had to do something at 09:00 to which I replied not really and she then said if I could pick her up at 09:00 as she has no class until 10:00 and do some shopping since at 11:15 is clinic time. This p***ed me off. I work from home so yes I can drop everything and leave, no one controls my hours but I politely said it would not give me time to finish off some things. I lied. She did not take it too well. To me she should have said can you pick me up at 09:00 I will skip class so we can do shopping and I can be at 11:15 at the clinic. THEN I would agreed. It is a compromise. She does this constantly, get people to work around her gym hours. It is not a compromise. It is YOUR compromise. Maybe she had other thoughts and she thought that she was meeting you in the middle. Instead of getting angry, validate. Im having a bit of trouble following this situation, but in general, validation is much better than getting angry.

We all are tired of telling her to back off pushing herself, so.....stop. she is not a teenager but a 47 year old woman. Her achilles tendons are on the verge of giving up. She relentlessly continues. If they do snap she cannot do anymore of the stuff she does and will become miserable and again My guess is that she is doing it to show you all that she can. The more you tell her to stop, the more driven she will become. ... at home we will have to bear the brunt of her anger.

Try to get her to stop and you are controlling, leave her alone until she falls and then you have to pick up the pieces. No. You dont HAVE to pick up the pieces. SHE has to. You dont have to fix her. You dont have to save her. it is a no win situation. I told her explicity, if you damage your tendons you will be out for months. If you get a job request you will not be able to walk and will lose the job possibility. This affects us as a family unit since we could do with the money and she could do with a job that she seems to baldy want. In one ear out the other. What if you told her what you want instead of how to do it. Start by coming from, Im concerned that ur income is too low. Instead of you cant go to the gym and hurt yourself so you cant work. Shes not working now, so why would she care? Youre trying to solve her problems insead of letting her figure them out.

Any way glad to get it off my chest

Take care bro
[/quote]

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Maximus Offline OP
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Hi Azz,

I understand your comments about leaving her alone and respecting she is a grown woman.

What I find hard to understand is backing off say about the licence. She would still take the car and in case of an accident I would have to get involved. As for finding work, she said she couldnt handle it and stopped doing anything to even try and if I could. I took over sending her CV to job placement companies. All she focused on was going to the gym and getting into the EA. I cant see how in anyone's books that is doing anything to help get a job. She is BTW now actively looking after I mentioned she was doing nothing about it from what I saw. She couldnt say one piece of evidence that she had tried.

As for her tendons we did stop a long time ago.

As for today, we discussed about one of the gyms and the timetable came up of the classes. Some weeks ago she said she wanted to go to a class at 14:00 and I was upset because it meant eating alone. She would come at 11:30 do the food for me and my son, have a coffee and then leave. (I now know I should have let her do her thing). Now she also says there is a class at 16:00 so I ask her why she doesnt do it and she first said because she would not be here for our son when he arrived. I replied he is a grown man and if the food is done there shouldnt be a problem. Also, I would be here so he doesnt eat alone. She then said that before I did mind and got angry. So I told her I was wrong before and if she wanted to do it it was her choice and her life and I really had other priorities at this moment than argue about her gym classes.

later on, I casually asked if she was still going to go the gym I was at because I was paying for 2 people and it was pointless. She got upset and had tears and told me to do what I wanted. That something was up since this morning and when I said why did she get to almost crying she said she didnt she was just angry.

Looking back, the 3 issues I see that could have affected her are:

a) Not picking her up at 9 hurriedly as I did before
b) Telling her to do what she wants as it is her life (in general) and going back on my previous opinion about her timetable for the gim
c) Asking about removing her from the gym

I wonder what message I am giving out to her? Should I care?


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I understand your comments about leaving her alone and respecting she is a grown woman.

What I find hard to understand is backing off say about the licence. She would still take the car and in case of an accident I would have to get involved. As for finding work, she said she couldnt handle it and stopped doing anything to even try and if I could. I took over sending her CV to job placement companies. All she focused on was going to the gym and getting into the EA. I cant see how in anyone's books that is doing anything to help get a job. She is BTW now actively looking after I mentioned she was doing nothing about it from what I saw. She couldnt say one piece of evidence that she had tried. If Im understanding, your opinion is that after reminding her once or twice, that she would ignore her license renewal and drive illegally? I have a hard time believing it. But I suppose it's possible. In my opinion, you could offer to help a little, but it sounds like to commandeered it to make sure it gone done. Same with the CVs. I would have said that you wanted her to look for something that she would enjoy. You can help her with reviewing the documents or something. But I think to just take over is not healthy.

As for her tendons we did stop a long time ago.

As for today, we discussed about one of the gyms and the timetable came up of the classes. Some weeks ago she said she wanted to go to a class at 14:00 and I was upset because it meant eating alone. She would come at 11:30 do the food for me and my son, have a coffee and then leave. (I now know I should have let her do her thing). Now she also says there is a class at 16:00 so I ask her why she doesnt do it and she first said because she would not be here for our son when he arrived. I replied he is a grown man and if the food is done there shouldnt be a problem. Also, I would be here so he doesnt eat alone. She then said that before I did mind and got angry. So I told her I was wrong before and if she wanted to do it it was her choice and her life and I really had other priorities at this moment than argue about her gym classes.

later on, I casually asked if she was still going to go the gym I was at because I was paying for 2 people and it was pointless. She got upset and had tears and told me to do what I wanted. That something was up since this morning and when I said why did she get to almost crying she said she didnt she was just angry.

Looking back, the 3 issues I see that could have affected her are:

a) Not picking her up at 9 hurriedly as I did before
b) Telling her to do what she wants as it is her life (in general) and going back on my previous opinion about her timetable for the gim
c) Asking about removing her from the gym

I wonder what message I am giving out to her? Should I care?

Who knows? Maybe it's cloudy? Maybe she slept badly? Maybe her leg is hurting? Could be anything. I wouldnt focus too much into it.



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Maximus Offline OP
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I agree,

Taking over and controlling is NOT healthy.

Thanks


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Originally Posted By: Maximus
I agree,

Taking over and controlling is NOT healthy.

Thanks


maximus I know you said that I should stop writing on other people's posts but I felt that as you have given me so much on my thread It would be only right To give you some advice ....

Now as we both know I am not the best at listening to advice and perhaps it seems that you too have this problem the thing that you have to realise just as I do ....your w is gone your marriage is over and just as I will have t get used to this you have to too

It is not what we want but it is not something we have any control on so buddy please for your own sanity let her go ...let her go and live her life the way that she wants to ...sure she might come back one day but you cannot live your life on this small hope.

Yes it will be tough being on your own at our age [censored] big time

Ghost


Me:48 W 41
M:18 T:26
2 D 18 & 4
2 S 17 & 13
Bomb: 20/7/2015 in house separation
D filed 06/17
Separate houses 10/17
D Final 29/12//17.
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Oh one other thing

I notice in your signature you say
Sharing house W won't ask for separation or divorce

How long are you going live like this it seems the trust has gone from your relationship if she has had an EA and perhaps a PA do you really want to be second place

Hard as it is when the love goes a part of her dies inside .....but yes she has walked I do feel your pain

How sad it is for all of us we are all here for the same reasons it is not the fun club

It will be ok you can get through this but you have to let her go ..Do not crowd her this is not what she wants

move on do things for you do not worry about W stop persuading

Read the rules you were making too many mistakes I feel from what I have read you are just pushing her further away until she will leave is this really what you want

Go out get a life for you

Take care

Ghost


Me:48 W 41
M:18 T:26
2 D 18 & 4
2 S 17 & 13
Bomb: 20/7/2015 in house separation
D filed 06/17
Separate houses 10/17
D Final 29/12//17.
Joined: Jan 2013
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Originally Posted By: Maximus
I agree,

Taking over and controlling is NOT healthy.

Thanks


Originally Posted By: Azzork

I hope someone else comes on and can help too. These are my thoughts though.

Maximus,
I was going to ask you to read these:
Originally Posted By: Maximus

The objective is to try and keep her but not at any price and not wait for her.

goal relation wise is make W want to have loving relationship with me.

I began to see a light at the end of the tunnel but still did not know what other buttons to press to maintain this situation
I also know I have to control my impulses or urges. I admit they do get the better of me.

I told her I didn't want to end up like her... depressed, unfulfilled and disappointed in life and everyone. Hiding from a half marriage in a gym or for a time relying on a 3rd party.
Obviously I can't employ the same emotionally detach symptom so I pulled her first privilege. Took away her smartphone and gave her a normal phone where she can sms and navigate and call but its not the S6 anymore.

Intimacy wise I can touch her but she will not respond. I can hold her hand but she will not close her grip. She will not initiate any contact no matter how small.

I didn't get a thanks or hug or anything. I let it slide. When I discovered the pics a couple of them were with her wearing it.

Without this reassurance everything else is just shaky and I cannot move ahead. She won't even tell me to STFU, that she will give it a go or that she wont. when I read other posts I see the WAS or WS wanting out, getting a life on their own. She can't so the more reason I feel she is trapped and whenever she gets a chance will fly away and again this feeling of being used which I consider worse than an EA or PA. The others happen and you get caught up in strong emotions. With this it is more premeditated and calculated.

If she wants out I would count my losses, sell the apartment and move to a fresh start even though I know it will mean her ending up a divorced 47 year old, living with her parents and no income in a country with high unemployment rate.

I cannot abandon her and not only because of her employment situation or she would have no where to go. That would be pity and not love.

I deiced to still add them as I think it would help, yet Azzork has hit the nail on the head:

Originally Posted By: Azzork

My thoughts are above in blue. My thoughts are that you want to put her into a box and only let her operate in the confines of that box. It sounds like you believe that if she is only permitted to think or do certain things in certain ways, that the end result will be that she loves you in the way that you accept. I think you are extremely hurt by the past and dont want it to go that way again.

Ultimately, I think you are setting yourself up for failure. You can (and maybe should) set boundaries around yourself, but almost all of the points you listed are you trying to set boundaries around HER and it just doesn't work that way. Read what you wrote again and before each point remind yourself that YOU CANNOT CONTROL HER. Now, how do they sound?




Have you tried individual therapy or counseling?
I also deal with control issues and have benefited greatly with therapy.


M46,W41
D16,D18
M22,T25
BD 11/12
W moved out 01/13
Piecing 10/13
Divorced 01/15
"Whether you worry or not has no affect on the outcome. But, moving forward, letting go, and making changes can."
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How are things going for you today?

My situation is similar to yours and I understand how you feel.

Just dropping by to wish you luck


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
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Maximus Offline OP
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Hi Guys,

Things are complicated and I am thrown off.

she is not a WW or WAW as the EA does seem over, her actions have changed and when I did do some checks she was where she was supposed to be.

We are still adjusting and she says she needs time and space to work her s**t out. I am giving that to her and acting as a sort of lighthouse as sometimes I am now leading where she used to and taking control of the house or some chores.

For a woman who entered an EA and sent loving notes and inappropriate pics though not nude, she is anti sex on any level.

Crack a sexist joke it is not her cup of tea. Today we spoke about some boards with Calvin Klein models and G strings and how I bought her some fancy ones years ago when she looked great in them and she wanted to get off the subject. She doesnt like or watch erotic films but read novels with explicit sex scenes by a famous woman writer... megan somethng.

We still do not shake any sheets and she does not initiate at all any form of contact. I am divided as to continue giving her hugs and or spooning in bed or backing off. On the one hand I read woman need this contact that does not always lead to sex as they need to feel secure emotionally, etc. On the other hand I read backing off is the thing to do and let her initiate. I also read that intimacy, especially non sexual is something they treasure. Therefore her coldness gives me a bad feeling.

How long I will continue? Don't really know.

I need physical contact on all levels, I am not asking for the whole package now just real actions or proof that things will change.

I am worried that continuing like this we return to room mates or the sex-is-a-chore relationship I hated.

My final goal is pretty clear... if there will be no sex nor affection our R is pretty much over. It is unnegotiable. It is not control, just my desire. She can leave and live a sexless R with someone else or by herself. Not my issue and not with me.

Hope this clears this up.


M: 50
S: 25

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