How To Be A Man Only A Fool Would Leave

[Karma12]

You are getting stronger Hp. You are holding her accountable to her responsibilities with your S.

[Dawn70]

Hi, HP! I have been out of town and finally catching up with everyone. I admire your strength in how you respond to your W's texts and such. My XH rarely contacts me, but when he does, I always struggle with what to say or whether to say anything at all. Your posts have been very helpful to me and I thank you for that.

[HPoirot]

Hello everyone. Thank you for the kind words of support. I think too that I was right to hold her accountable for her promises.

I see now very clearly she agrees to things without thinking when she feels trapped or knows she's wrong. When she agreed to take S12 on weekends, it was right after S12 had been yelling at her about fixing her lies and coming back to us. She just knee jerk reacts to things and digs her hole deeper.

Like this morning... I sleep late. When I wake up, I see W has tried to call me 3 times. Her VM says she has been trying to call S12 but he has not picked up. She says she is worried sick and doesn't know what's going on and wants to call the condo front desk or the police to make sure he is OK. She asks for me to please text her or have S12 give her a call.

I sigh. Go to S12 who has been awake. Ask him to please plug in his phone. He does and she calls.

Later she texts me... "Thank you for making it possible to talk to S12 and for next weekend." I haven't agreed to anything about next weekend. I don't see why it takes all weekend to attend an awards banquet. She will have to explain that to me.

Funny how I thought I was going to take a break from my W and this board for awhile.

Regarding my M and R... I don't know if what I'm doing is working at this moment. I read other sitches here where the LBH is having good contact with the wayward W. Going to lunch... family time... good interactions. I see Jefe's W is asking what a new M might look like. I feel very happy for his apparent progress.

I feel like I'm battling my W. She threatens again to call the police. I've kept S12 95% of the time for over a month after she let me take him from our home... got him to and picked him up from school, and basketball, and guitar practices on time everyday... washed and ironed his clothes... kept him entertained and fed and happy... paid my part of his tuition bill as I promised... and she has threatened twice to call the police on me. This while she is out of town when she said she would spend time with S12 on weekends. This while she pays nothing but spends money on trips and hotels. This while she's tearing apart her family.

I'm feeling hopeless about my M again. Not sad or sick or anything like that. Just feeling this is stupid and my W is manic.

I was just watching a documentary about Lance Armstrong. How he was able to boldly lie to the world and then even now feels justified and a victim.

It reminded me of my W. How even now she feels a victim of all this while continuing to hide truths and even lie about her situation and what she's agreed to do and pay. Saying all she wants is for all this to work for me. What a ridiculous thing for her to say.

I know my treatment of her must get better and more cordial. I know it's right to pull way back from her and let life show her the consequences of her actions. I know she's an anxious person who is going through a hard time and I need to be the lighthouse for her. I know I'm only 1.5 months into our physical separation. I know her saying she thinks of me and she misses me even after all that has happened could be a tiny baby step.

But can a really have faith in a new M with this person from this point? I know I would be 100% committed to building a new R with her. I've learned so much. I'm not even really angry anymore. I'm on my way to forgiving her.

On the good side... I've not yet really shown her anything extremely new about myself. She already knows I'm a great dad and am more than able to live on my own. That was actually one of the things she said a while back... that if something ever happened to "us" that I would probably not care that she was gone.

I guess by cutting her off so extremely, I'm showing her what she expected... that I don't love her and think little of her. She wants someone of high value to value her and hear her. I can't do that while she thinks I'll say nothing while she just leaves town without clearing it with me first.

I want to do better over the coming months to create a possibility of my family coming back together. To pull way way back from her while showing that I am a man with options.

Right so I'm back to simply being cordial and GALing and feeling and looking my best.

Going out now with S12 to buy a new pair of dress shoes. When W met me, I had a couple pair of $500 fine Italian shoes. I love dressing like a big success but now I dress like a computer hacker who works in a robe all day. I don't even own a suit that fits anymore. Time to change that if I'm going to attract a high value woman again.

This should be fun.

[SunnyB]

I read other sitches here where the LBH is having good contact with the wayward W. Going to lunch... family time... good interactions.

HP, you may or may not have been including me in this group, but it's true. We do have a lot of pleasant contact, lots of family time. But it doesn't change anything. He still lives in his own apartment, we still shuttle our child back and forth, he still is breaking his fidelity vows. When he knocks on my door, it's with every intention of leaving in a couple of hours.

Yes, it's probably more pleasant my way than yours. But it doesn't change the end product. So hang in there.

[Karma12]

HP,

I think her saying she was going to call the police because she was so worried is her own guilt talking. She knows she has not been the Mother she should be and it probably makes her feel better when she says she was really worried and going to call the police. To her she could say to herself see I'm a good Mother. It's really not about you or the job you are doing with S. iMHO. In fact she obviously trusts you are doing a good job with son because she is leaving him with you 95% of the time.

I think your plan to dress for success is a great idea. It will do the world of good to look in the mirror and see yourself looking your best. It is more than depressing to see your self wrapped in a robe all day. A lazy Sunday is one thing but all week is unhealthy. Project what you want to be and where you want to be. It's a positive step. Happy shopping.

[sandi2]

I guess by cutting her off so extremely, I'm showing her what she expected... that I don't love her and think little of her. She wants someone of high value to value her and hear her.

You know what I would say about this, right?

I want to do better over the coming months to create a possibility of my family coming back together.

How would you create a possibility?

I know you are still on a roller coaster b/c one time you talk about moving forward and make a life without her b/c you can't be M to her as things are. You start using firmer boundaries. Then you start beating yourself up.......even though she is totally out of line.....and you fall into your own victim pit. Now you say it's up to you to "create" a possibility of your family coming back together. Did you not try to do that when you still living with her? Just asking.

I have asked you several times if she has always been this irresponsible, and wishy-washy on everything around her. I know being a WW can intensify this behavior, but were you and S12 constantly having to readjust your lives b/c of her? If you were, then nothing has changed in that department.

I have to wonder when you are pointing your fingers at yourself and talking about getting your family back..........are you seeing that picture with your W as she was in the past before she became wayward? HP, she has not changed.

I see LBH'S wanting their WAW back at almost any price. But I don't see many of them say they want her as she is now. It's as if they think she'll automatically change back to her old self again. That is why I have asked you how much of her actions are the same as she's always had. (And I apologize if you have said and I missed it or have forgotten.) Have you always had to rescue her? Has she always expected you to bend to accommodate her? Has she always been bad to make agreements or promises, only to break it time and time again? And.........would you take her back if you knew she would never change (minus the OM).

HP, what are you willing to live with, if reconciliation is possible? We do a lot of talking about the LBS changing, and not enough talk about what the WAS needs to do to make it work again. I am pretty sure you would insist on her ending contact with OM, and things along that line. However, that has not come into your conversation much lately (which is good), but it is her unwillingness to stick to what she says she'll do. That seems to be the sore spot for you (and who wouldn't get fed up?), so will she stop that behavior pattern....or could you live with it for the rest of your life? When you see the "picture" of your family together again, how she is acting on a daily bases in that picture? Not what you dream about, but on what you know about her. IMHO, that is the decision you need to consider at this point. You are the only one who can answer the question. You are the one who knows her. Do not confuse your hopes by being completely unrealistic. I am not saying you are or aren't. I just want you to keep a clear head and thereby having a clear vision.

Everyone would want to reconcile if the spouse became what/who we wanted, right? You may, or may not, decide to move forward and be happy while she either becomes someone you would love to live with........or you may decide to take her as she is right now, without any expectations of her getting better. Perhaps that choice would give you a better perspective.

Of course you want to be a man that any woman would be a fool to leave. In reality, there are a lot of fools in this world. . Don't lose your own self worth and core values. Don't sacrifice your own happiness and love out of what you see as being that man, okay? You are seeing her wanting a H who values her and will listen. Fair enough, everyone wants that much. But you get down on yourself and get all out of balance and don't think about what you deserve. Don't you want a W who respects you, be your lover, and will be an equal partner in life?

I am not trying to get you to decide one way or the other. I just want you to keep a clear vision and decide what is best for HP.

P.S. You are still allowing what she said about missing you to weigh too heavy on your mind. She just said it that once, that I know about, but you continue to make reference to it. You were the one who made it into more than how she meant it, IMO.. She "used" it, HP. Now you need to get past it and stop lingering on it. Can you do it?

((HP))

[nit84]

Great words Sandi, We can all use what you said to help us.

Sorry for the Hijack HP, Hang in there

[sandi2]

Thanks Nit.

[HPoirot]

I guess by cutting her off so extremely, I'm showing her what she expected... that I don't love her and think little of her. She wants someone of high value to value her and hear her.

You know what I would say about this, right?

Hello Sandi. Thank you for your thoughts. I believe you would say I'm being ridiculous and there nothing else I can do at this point except move away from her. I can't be the one who listens to her right now. I can't allow her to lean on me emotionally.

I want to do better over the coming months to create a possibility of my family coming back together.

How would you create a possibility?

Yes I did do 180s and good listening and acts of service when I was living with her. She said I was kind and understanding. And that didn't change her lying or disrespect or anything.

From here there's nothing I can do to improve myself and just be cordial.

Even so, sometimes I want to reach out to her and just talk. Every contact she makes she asks to talk. She gives me opportunities to talk everyday. She still complains I don't answer the phone even after I've told her I won't.

I just have doubts sometimes. I find my firmer boundaries suck to do. I didn't like seeing W cry. Today I made W angry in a text conversation. Didn't like that either.

Yesterday, after I asked why she had scheduled 2 weekend away in a row, she said she was flying to the West Coast with her boss on a work trip to an awards ceremony next weekend. I explained that she said she would take S12 on weekends and she did not ask me about her change of plans.

I recognized her pattern of lying in her explanation and asked her this morning via text where she and her boss would stay and be reachable on the weekend she said she would be here with S12.

She reacted as expected and said her boss wasn't going on the trip and she was flustered when she said so and she was sorry for the confusion. Asking her again led her to threaten lawyers and a legal separation. She left a cursing VM, said I was now hurting S12 with my behavior, that she loves S12 and is insulted I would suggest otherwise, that she was worried and shaky about me b/c I was texting her about her trip.

Then she says she's sorry for lashing out when she feels angry with me and that I don't deserve that and I'm a great dad. She offered to get a friend to take care of S12 that weekend. She took the time to schedule a play date for S12. Mentioned our joint bank account was negative.

Around this time she called again and left a second VM asking if we could talk and be nicer to each other.

I told her not to change the subject. Asked her if she can confirm what she told me about her trip was honest.

She asked me why I didn't believe her. I reminded her I believed her every time she walked out the door (to her A). Asked her if she is being honest now.

She said it was a work trip and said she was tired of texting. Talked about how S12 would not be disappointed with her not being there b/c she would talk with him. She said he would be disappointed if he can't have the playdate she scheduled but it is my call.

I texted her that I was not happy that she broke her commitment to me without asking me or explaining why. Told her it didn't help to hear her story change with every text. Reminded her that, if she needs to break a commitment to me, I have the right to ask her why without getting vagueness and threats and to tell her no. Told her it was not a matter of keeping S12... it is a matter of me feeling like I've been taken advantage of and lied to. Reminded her that, if I need to break a commitment with her, she can count on me to be prompt, courteous, and transparent to her and S12. That I understood the need to build trust and to do the right thing given the difficult circumstances.

She again said it was a work trip and that she would get me the details when she can. She offered again to have a friend cover for her.

I declined... said I'm thankful for my time with S12. And agreed to the play date she set up.

Later, I asked her about her mom as she's home visiting. She texted me a picture of them both saying she was great. I texted W "you look nice." She thanked me for the compliment and sent a smily face.

...

I do not believe she'll get me anything to confirm her trip is for work. There's nothing I can do about that. I don't even know if taking this so far was the thing to do regarding my R goal.

So I didn't tolerate her changes without her asking me or her inconsistent story.

This works if I'm D.

Does it work if I'm trying to save my M?

I have asked you several times if she has always been this irresponsible, and wishy-washy on everything around her. I know being a WW can intensify this behavior, but were you and S12 constantly having to readjust your lives b/c of her? If you were, then nothing has changed in that department.

Around money she has been irresponsible. Last summer, immediately before this started, she decided to spend our joint money on her trip to Europe with her BFF without telling me the full details beforehand. This caused a huge problem with our taxes and S12's tuition. It was the start of her showing the real strain I recognize in her now. I can see now how she was sick of our regular life and wanted more.

Even so, I encouraged her to go to Europe and told her it was b/c I wanted her to come home happy. I took the strain of the taxes and tuition on myself which she also didn't like b/c she said didn't feel included.

I can see how my setting budgets and not spending money made her feel trapped in our M. I'm sure that will continue and she will blame her financial issues on me.

As far as being wishy washy or unreliable... she has been very reliable. I would say she thinks she is being reliable now. Earlier today she talked about how she has done everything she said she would. That she is doing her best. If I point out how she has not kept her schedules and payment agreements, she will simply cry it's not her fault.

So yes the not great part of her have been intensified regarding how she acts with me.

I have to wonder when you are pointing your fingers at yourself and talking about getting your family back..........are you seeing that picture with your W as she was in the past before she became wayward? HP, she has not changed.

I see LBH'S wanting their WAW back at almost any price. But I don't see many of them say they want her as she is now. It's as if they think she'll automatically change back to her old self again. That is why I have asked you how much of her actions are the same as she's always had. (And I apologize if you have said and I missed it or have forgotten.) Have you always had to rescue her? Has she always expected you to bend to accommodate her? Has she always been bad to make agreements or promises, only to break it time and time again? And.........would you take her back if you knew she would never change (minus the OM).

You're right... I have had to rescue her, bend to accommodate her, and it was hard for her to stay on the budget she agreed to. Not always but big decisions in our life went wrong b/c we didn't communicate well on our differing needs. I would still bend to try to accommodate her but it wasn't enough or wasn't right for her. Yes we were often not on the same page. Yes she would have to be change regarding communication, M effort, and honesty. We both would.

HP, what are you willing to live with, if reconciliation is possible? We do a lot of talking about the LBS changing, and not enough talk about what the WAS needs to do to make it work again. I am pretty sure you would insist on her ending contact with OM, and things along that line. However, that has not come into your conversation much lately (which is good), but it is her unwillingness to stick to what she says she'll do. That seems to be the sore spot for you (and who wouldn't get fed up?), so will she stop that behavior pattern....or could you live with it for the rest of your life? When you see the "picture" of your family together again, how she is acting on a daily bases in that picture? Not what you dream about, but on what you know about her. IMHO, that is the decision you need to consider at this point. You are the only one who can answer the question. You are the one who knows her. Do not confuse your hopes by being completely unrealistic. I am not saying you are or aren't. I just want you to keep a clear head and thereby having a clear vision.

Everyone would want to reconcile if the spouse became what/who we wanted, right? You may, or may not, decide to move forward and be happy while she either becomes someone you would love to live with........or you may decide to take her as she is right now, without any expectations of her getting better. Perhaps that choice would give you a better perspective.

Of course you want to be a man that any woman would be a fool to leave. In reality, there are a lot of fools in this world. . Don't lose your own self worth and core values. Don't sacrifice your own happiness and love out of what you see as being that man, okay? You are seeing her wanting a H who values her and will listen. Fair enough, everyone wants that much. But you get down on yourself and get all out of balance and don't think about what you deserve. Don't you want a W who respects you, be your lover, and will be an equal partner in life?

I am not trying to get you to decide one way or the other. I just want you to keep a clear vision and decide what is best for HP.

I understand Sandi. When my W is happy she is a wonderful and caring person. Over the years she has shown herself to be high strung and anxious and she stresses about not having enough money. The life she wants a man to give her now is low on all those things.

In any case I think you're saying right now I have to turn my back on my M. She won't give me what I deserve right now. Maybe she never will no matter how I treat her now.

P.S. You are still allowing what she said about missing you to weigh too heavy on your mind. She just said it that once, that I know about, but you continue to make reference to it. You were the one who made it into more than how she meant it, IMO.. She "used" it, HP. Now you need to get past it and stop lingering on it. Can you do it?

((HP))

I can do it.

[/quote]

[LisaB]

Hi HP, you are sounding so much stronger and better.

A few things I have noticed.

Your W is being a very disorganized and unreliable person, at least from the details of your stories. She changes the information every single time you communicate. This is unacceptable when you are taking care of your son.

As Wonka (and others) said, this needs to stop. The schedule needs to be set and she needs to stick to it unless there is an emergency. I know the housing situation is part of the reason this has not been set yet. But I wouldn't hold my breath for that to be cleared up soon. So she moves in on Feb 9, no wait, the 15th, no .. the 17th. Yeah sure. And then oops she doesn't have a bed for your son, or some other such excuse or problem. She is out of control.

The problem is that your son cannot suffer because of it, so you have to be flexible. But I think continuing to draw a hard line about her promises is a fair thing to do. So if she says "I'm moving Feb 9th" and then she says "I'm moving Feb 17th" call her out on it immediately. "I thought you said Feb 9th?" and do this each time. "I thought you said every weekend?" You don't have to be mean or rude, just firm.

However what I would NOT do is ask her stuff like where she is going or who with. Honestly that is not exactly your business. I mean, yeah she is having an A or As but getting involved in discussions or arguments about that sort of thing will not help you. Just hold her to her promises, be short and blunt and drop it.

"You said you would pay X, I expect you to do so."
"You said you would have son on X date, I expect you to do so"
"If you cannot do something don't say you will"

That's it. But don't ask questions about OM, her activities or anything.

I feel your pain and confusion in wondering if this is all bringing you closer to your W or just pushing her away. If you were just very very loving and kind would she crumble. But to be honest she sounds like a mess. A mess she needs to solve herself. She needs time and boundaries.

The bit about her calling the police because she didn't reach you all morning... this is just utterly ridiculous. If she was someone I knew and she did that to me... I would tell them to go get their head checked. Really? Someone doesn't answer the phone for a few hours and they must be in mortal danger. Oh the age of cell phones is truly annoying sometimes. Your wife is really irritating me, can you tell?

HP you are doing so well. Keep your chin up and stay strong.

hugs, Lisa