Busting this Divorce - 90 Days NC #6

[HPoirot]

Here would be my advice for now. Be warm and friendly in response to her overtures. Be polite. Listen when she talks but don't engage or argue. Validate and let it go. Respond to calls and texts in a friendly timely manner. Hopefully this will bring you some peace as she will maybe calm down and stop harassing you all the time with a million texts and calls. And then maybe you won't feel so angry and irritated and you can have some peace to work on yourself.

When that calm comes, don't use it as an opportunity to cling on to your WAW and start obsessing on her whereabouts. Use that calm peace and friendliness as an opportunity to GAL. If you don't have to spend so much time and energy avoiding her calls and being angry and fighting with her about not responding to her, and writing on here about your experiences (although I do always read your sitch).. you can use that time to GAL! You need to GAL! And keep focusing on your own happiness and fulfillment.

Thank you LisaB. I'm thinking your advice was the advice I've been getting all along. I've been resisting it b/c of ego. If I'm to do this then I'll have to check that. I'm still searching for that line between DBing and doormat.

I initiated the talk today b/c I know her and I knew my listening to her would reach her. That is what she says she's always wanted... to be heard... really SEEN and understood. I guess that's why she talks so much. Conversation is her love language.

At the same time, I can't be too available. So, like you said, I'll do a little more of the above when she initiates contact. Maybe that will keep things peaceful so I can really detach and feel calm and confident instead of trying to hide anger all the time.

She was crying last night about how I can't ignore her and not talk to her... especially around S12. Not that I can trust her crying anymore. I'm so wary of being manipulated now that these choices are hard.

So me being authentic is polite and calm and upbeat. That's the choice to make. If she's going to be manipulative... that's her problem then.

Tonight, I texted her to thank her for dinner. She replied... "My pleasure! :-)" Noting I still don't trust when she uses exclamation points.

We also texted just now about her picking up 12 in the morning for school. She asked if I would be at the basketball game tomorrow night. I immediately replied yes. She replied OK.

One week after the first disastrous game. We'll see what happens. Maybe I'll buy a new pair of pants for myself.

[happy1]

How about pants AND a shirt!! Go crazy, H

[HPoirot]

So I'm thinking of doing the February Essential Experience Workshop.

Good for you. I have heard 25 yrs praise it highly.

I do hope you can find balance, HP. I agree that your anger is eating up most of your energy and the inconsistency keeps you frustrated.

I do have a suggestion, however. In these contacts with your W, you do not have to contend with her verbal disrespect. As soon as she starts raising her voice, or says something to cause your anger to rise, interrupt and say, "I am going to hang up now". It takes two to fight, so if you can be strong enough to listen to warning sirens blowing.......you can end it in it's tracks. Don't slam the phone down, but tell her you are ending the call and then put the receiver down. As much as she craves conversation with you, she will eventually learn she can scream and curse at you or you will end it.

I have noticed when she has a call from S12 that isn't to her liking, she immediately calls you and vents her anger or frustration. Usually, you are as upset as your son with her, so it doesn't end well. Perhaps you could address this with her (when the timing is good) and ask if she will agree not to call you immediately following an upsetting talk with her son. Present it as a better co-parenting skill, or a better communicating relationship between the two of you......or whatever, but it is clearly a bad habit she's forming that needs to stop. Even scheduling a set time once a week to discuss all her concerns with S12 would seem better, b/c it would give both of you time to settle down.
However, even as I write this, I really doubt she could stick to not texting of some alternative to calling.

Hello Sandi. Yes it was the verbal disrespect that started me off last night. She started cursing me again. I hung up... but then I called her back and asked her where this angry cursing was coming from. In all our M she's never spoken like that to me. It's only been since my not letting her in the condo that she's started that. But yes that led to more yelling and then the terrible R talk. Backsliding.

I'm tired of this anger from both of us. My idea today to just completely shut down communication seemed to promise to make that worse. Immediately after I told her I'd only accept emergency calls, she called and texted me. All the ended in an angry email.

One friendly but not friends phone call changed the dynamic today.

So you said this in an earlier post...

HP, you can reach that level of calmness that will allow you to deal with the irritations of your W. I still believe she is wanting to get her needs met through both you and OM. She wants your friendship, conversational relationship, and family events. If you can settle for that without any expectations.......that is your decision to make. Some people, including MWD, believe in being friends with the WAS. However, she says in Divorce Remedy that if the S refuses to end their A, to get a lawyer and file. So the way I interpreted much of her advice was not applicable when the wayward spouse simply refused to end their A. But it is the personal decision of the individual as the length of time they endure the infidelity.

It's not like I have to endure anything as I've separated from her. It's up to her to file although she seems to think I'm going to.

I've told her I let her go... I'm moving forward. That sent her in a little panic today before I was friendly with her.

Like you said... she still places a high value on me treating her nicely and talking with her. I believe she would love to come over to the condo to see S12 and watch TV with us like she used to.

So, if I, like you say, settle for occasional friendship, conversational relationship, and family events without any expectations while just being friendly but not friends about it... does that help me grow and help my R goal? That seems to go with what DB Coach Chuck said. Slowly create more emotional connection as that is what she really wants.

My doing the hardline LRT/NC has been hard on all of us with my anger/irritation over her texting and changing schedules and her sadness/anger/cursing over her transition failure. I think I've had only 1 full day where I have not heard from her so that's fail.

And yes I like your idea about talking about S12 weekly. As I'm going with him to the IC sessions, maybe she and I can do a weekly call about progress. More growth for me then.

So then...

I'm calm, confident, and authentic. That means I care about my son's welfare and want him to have a good relationship with his mom and to be ok in this "transition" of hers. I'm accepting her transition so I'm partnering with W on IC and S12 discussions.

At the same time, I'm having a revelation that I'm enjoying my single life. I'm GALing... dressing better... looking attractive... moving forward. I have no problem talking with W when she needs to talk but I'm brief and purposeful b/c she's only a co-worker.

Every now and then, for S12, I say "We're doing X... care to join us?" I accept her and focus on the moment and let it go. No expectations.

Something like that.

No problem.

[HeavyD]

I conncur to be calm and ignore as much as possible the spew. Walk away if you can or just hang up the phone. My WAW kept goading me last night with her texts, we were settling up some bills an I just ignored all of the provocations.

Example -Get the picture? I don't care about you anymore
Example - I need to see receipts from now on about all bills

I took photos with my phone of the receipts and replied cheerily "Hope this helps".

It made me feel better to be in control and not respond to her bullsh*t.

[TLEE86]

So, if I, like you say, settle for occasional friendship, conversational relationship, and family events without any expectations while just being friendly but not friends about it... does that help me grow and help my R goal? That seems to go with what DB Coach Chuck said. Slowly create more emotional connection as that is what she really wants.

My doing the hardline LRT/NC has been hard on all of us with my anger/irritation over her texting and changing schedules and her sadness/anger/cursing over her transition failure. I think I've had only 1 full day where I have not heard from her so that's fail.

I have said it before but I agree that you taking the hardline approach definitely seems to not lead to a path of R, but continues to cause anger and irritation within yourself.

I actually asked myself this exact same question today. Does being friendly and conversational to W help grow and enable R by creating a more emotional connection? Because it does seem like W wants it. My DB Coach said the same thing. Be friendly and conversational. Be her friend for now. Though Sandi hit the nail on the head, how long are you willing to endure the infidelity and at what point are you giving her the best of both worlds?

The question I have for you HP is, can you really be friendly consistently? Or are you still in a place where you may have a blow up sometime because you are angry (understandably). Small, consistent actions will be noticed. If you don't think you are able to consistently be light and friendly, it may be worthwhile to wait a little bit until you are able to do that.

[claire7]

Though Sandi hit the nail on the head, how long are you willing to endure the infidelity and at what point are you giving her the best of both worlds?

I don't think he is 'enduring' the infidelity-- he has moved out and is not pursuing his WAW. I don't think that being friendly and polite (not "friends"-- and HP, I would recommend not asking so much about her job, etc.) is not giving her 'the best of both worlds'.

There does not seem to be a benefit to HP OR his son by continuing to respond angrily OR ignore her.

[TLEE86]

When I say "enduring the infidelity" I mean how long are you willing to put up with the fact that she is having an A, how long are you willing to wait. I don't mean accepting or condoning the A. It is clear that you are not.

I think there is a fine line between being polite and friendly, versus giving her the best of both worlds. She is already in an active A. She clearly wants increased and friendly contact. Yes, I agree there is no benefit to anyone by continuing to respond angrily or ignoring her. But too much friendliness may begin to satisfy her desires.

Im not sure if this is coming off clearly. Basically, at what point will her emotional needs be satisfied by you HP, and just be careful that you don't reach that point because then she will have no reason to change her actions

[HPoirot]

Thanks you Jan, TLEE, and claire. Woke up this morning shaking my head about this whole thing. I've imagined a life without my W many times in my M. She has been difficult to live with in the past... not supportive and easy to give up in the face of challenges. I know now that I should have been the one to reach for her and support our M instead of waiting for her to be friendly again. That was my pattern... waiting for her to change without me changing.

So she's done waiting for changes and is very angry. I can't keep putting mental energy into managing her outbursts. So yes friendly in our required interactions helps me and I'll do it. I agree TLEE about too much of that... but more for me b/c self-respect. I choose to stop caring about giving her reasons to change her actions.

Whatever is in her head... she curses me and yells at her son and says she doesn't feel she's ruining anyone's life. Then she cries when I ask her how S12 is doing. It's too much for me to be exposed to everyday. She doesn't seem to understand how dealing with her could be painful. It's going to take a long time for her anger and sadness around us to fade.

So I want to detach from her ASAP so her emotions slide off me for real. Not just keep her and her moods away with anger or boundaries. All this other stuff... managing her emotions, giving her reasons, etc... is games.

And I can detach. The ADs must be kicking it b/c I've felt pretty even the past couple days. I have not cried in days. Even after that last bad R talk... I did not feel crushed.

I'm starting to really look at my dead M and what she's been missing. I see I have a ways to go to be the man she would care to start a new R with. I have to really change... not play games.

And it starts with S12. He has to be fine through this. I have to do whatever I can to make W's plans work regarding him.

Just keep going.

[sandi2]

IMHO, it is difficult for the LBH to distinguish being friends and just showing a polite, friendly manner. Especially when there has been no break or space in the relationship, he gets sucked into her personal life again. Plus, as I have said before, the WAW'S idea of the friendship and the LBH'S idea is usually quite opposite. He (the LBH) is thinking the friendship will eventually develop into more between them. And honestly I believe it can and does happen........once the couple can get past the hurt and anger with each other. But to jump immediately from being cheated on to being great friends? I believe they have two agendas in mind. It is very doubtful the WW, who is still in an active A, is thinking about getting back into an intimate relationship with her H. Her agenda is much different.

Don't get me wrong, I do believe in doing what works. HP couldn't control his anger and she wouldn't control her endless contact. I wished he could have had a long vacation from her, but.....oh well. So again, I suggest you proceed with caution, HP. Take this very slowly and do not get drawn back into her manipulation over confusion of the term "friendly". If you start questioning yourself about what kind of friend you are, etc., then you've slid too far the other direction.

You told her you were moving on, so act as though you are already D and you are being nice and friendly toward the mother of your son. Stay balanced and don't lean too far in either direction. Also be watchful that you do not start pursuing her, under the guise of being friendly. At least for a while, have the mindset that you are strictly co-parenting. Pretend you are co-parenting with your neighbor down the street. Don't get too personal, for now. The mistake I see many H's make is getting into the BFF trap b/c they try to get too close to her too quick.

[HPoirot]

Hello Sandi. Thank you for your help here and I agree. She wants more friendliness as she says for S12's sake but mostly b/c she can feel better by keeping her family despite her decisions. It doesn't help anything if I'm so angry that S12 is hurt so I have to keep our co-parenting relationship positive.

So yes again to what you've all been saying all along... just keep it friendly. I just saw her and was polite and brief. Just a good morning and a wave goodbye. I could have been more upbeat. It was just fine for now and I can keep doing it.

I can be friendly now while still pulling way way back. I realize my anger and the last R talks were very bad pursuing so I'm just going to keep up the no pressure politeness. That will make her more invisible in my life so I can really move on.

I also see that yesterday she interpreted my "I'm moving forward" text as I'm going to file D imminently. I see she's only scared that I'll do it without her input. I won't be the one to file... but yes I will act as if I already am D and just keep it moving.

My W again did not look attractive at all when I saw her this morning.

And then my OW from 5 years ago called on her morning walk. Took a picture of the ocean so I could see her view. She knows I love the water... we used to swim together. My W can't swim.

We talked for a while just about her and her busy life. About home prices where she lives. She made a little fun of her H. I found myself automatically validating her and really listening. Did not talk about my sitch at all. Second time she called me this week. It again was wonderful to hear from her. I see the problem. I'm being careful.

Tonight is S12s basketball game. I'll go and be polite to my W as if she's another mom there. I'll act as if I'm there by myself and enjoy the game.

Then I have the whole weekend to myself. I want to restart work on my side business. I think I will start working on my new "successful man" wardrobe. No more jeans and a sweatshirt for me.

On with my day then.

Good luck to all of us.

Onward.