To Stir Or Not to Stir That Pot

[Gerda]

Thought I would start a new thread on this but did just try to post this post on another thread --

A lurker posting at last. What do you think of this whole Stirring the Pot notion? It seems from Wonka's posts (I have read many) that when MLC is in the fog, no fork, knife or spoon could stir him out of it. Once the fog lifted, stirring was not needed.

Folks who know -- Is this accurate or do you believe in stirring the pot? I am content to wait on my in-house MLC'er as long as it take, but the one thing that is unbearable to me is my 9-year old son is totally unraveling, and I don't know how to deal with it. I pray a lot and try to give this over to the Lord too, but it's impossible to be a mother to him and my 5-yr old daughter when he is always in a mad rage. And I have to be, my in-house MLC H barely talks to the kids, let alone is a father to them. So though I never say anything at all to my husband relating to our relationship, I keep thinking about stirring the pot in regards to my son. Mostly I conclude that it would be pointless, if I say anything to him about anything relating to him or relationships, he goes vacant or furiously says he can't talk about it, etc. But after the daily few hours of my son calling me a f-ing b-tch and an a--hole, idiot, I hate you, etc., I start to lose my resolve. I usually run-don't-walk to the church at the corner to cry for a while and get it together to return so that I won't start a conversation that is pointless.

So I wanted to get a discussion going on the pros and cons of pot stirring. My husband is I am pretty sure in the crazy cycling of withdrawal/depression stages, 2 or 3 years after the MLC started, one year after things got crazy, bomb drop, etc.

[Cadet]

My husband is I am pretty sure in the crazy cycling of withdrawal/depression stages, 2 or 3 years after the MLC started, one year after things got crazy, bomb drop, etc.

Welcome to the board.
I will be honest but I don't believe he is stuck in withdrawal/depression stage based on what you have posted so far.

Why do you think that?

My guess he is still escaping and avoiding.(Replay)

Tell us more of your story.

[kml]

But after the daily few hours of my son calling me a f-ing b-tch and an a--hole, idiot, I hate you, etc., I start to lose my resolve.

I'm sorry - this is your 9 year old saying these things to you? If so, I assume he learned these things from his father? In which case your husband is abusive and you need to get you and the kids out of that house NOW.

Why would you even allow your son to say these things to you for hours at a time? Do you think he's just reacting to the tension at home, or does he blame you for keeping them in the home with the abusive husband, or does he somehow believe your H that YOU are the cause of the marital problems?

This is serious and must be nipped in the bud or your son will grow up to be an abuser of women also. Please contact a shelter or someplace that works with abused women. This is not garden variety MLC and you need to get out of there with the kids.

[job]

Please provide a run down as to what may have triggered the mlc. Generally 18-24 months prior to the bomb drop something happened to him, be it a promotion, firing, accident, health issue, death of family, friend or co-worker, etc. As for the time line, toss that out! He will take as long as it takes him to get through his crisis. Some are 5 years, 7 years, 10 years or longer and then there are some that remain stuck for life.

Just from what you've posted, I'm w/Cadet and it sounds like he's still acting out in replay.

As for your child cursing and acting out, I'm w/kml, this has got to cease and the sooner the better. Your home situation isn't working out for your children and you. It's time to consider either booting him out or you and the children leave. No child should be subject to such stuff and then turns around and curses and acts out from what he's seen and heard. You might even want to consider some counseling for child.

[Gerda]

Thank you for these replies, everyone. I realize that I am probably not ready to post here because I am a very devout Christian and have no plans ever to break up our family. My husband is awful but he is not dangerous. And my posting name is Gerda from the story The Ice Queen. Gerda walks through the snow barefoot for years, faithful to the end for her childhood love, whose heart has been frozen by the Ice Queen. (It's what Frozen the movie is based on, but it's much much better!)

http://www.online-literature.com/hans_christian_andersen/972/

I am navigating my son's rage and we have our good days and bad days; I wrote that on a very bad day. My husband does spew at me but not anything like that, it's all the usual MLC stuff blaming me for everything and misremembering our life together. My son is a beautiful boy and I have no fears for him in that regard, he is just very very angry and I am a safe person to express it to.

My husband is following the MLC script to a T, but he is an in-house prodigal, has never left us and in fact has never really slept away. I am not sure about affairs in general but the main one was/is EA, I think she lives somewhere else and I am not sure he ever saw her in person, all texts and phone calls (endlessly). There may have been other things, I am not sure. He is a classic case -- terrible abusive childhood with the world's meanest father, running away from home, etc., then our years together (we met when I was 23, now am 43 and he is 48) with the usual ups and downs, and certainly I made many mistakes but nothing to warrant this. Then we had two really awful years with the business we own together, terrible financial crises, and years of weight gain for him leading to a huge health scare, he thought he was going to die, endless tests for cancer but he was okay. He started losing weight and eating right, and pulling away from me, and the rest is the usual story of MLC except that we own a business together and I was homeschooling our kids, so there was no escape or way to have boundaries in so many areas. He went full in with secret life, drunk all the time, going out with who knows who, training for marathons, lost 60 pounds, got hair implants, etc. He slowly pulled totally away from us but lives with us and uses his dissertation as the reason -- "I told you this family was going to suffer if I was going to finally get my doctorate," and blaming us for the fact that he never finished it, etc. And then in a prophetic dream a voice told me where to touch my breast and i opened my eyes and touched that exact spot and found the lump. I had a mastectomy on one side. The day of the surgery was my happiest day in the last year because for 12 hours, I had my husband back. It was totally him, it was such a magical night though in the hospital, real love. But by the morning, he was pacing the room, was back to himself, and left town the next day to run a marathon. And when he got back I looked at his phone and saw hehad been texting OW while I was on the operating table. When confronted, followed that script of blaming me and saying he was so scared and he had no one else to turn to but was still kind of in clarity and agreed it was over with her and he wanted to be there for me. But this slowly faded, and he went back full in to the tunnel. I escaped chemo and continue my single mom duties.

I keep watching what I thought was depression/withdrawal but then sadly looking at his eye creams and endless purchases of whatever he wants and sneaking money off my credit cards or from the business, etc., and realize he must still be in replay. And the spew is bad, really bad, if I open that door even a tiny bit. Mostly, guided by faith and those tenets, I am patient and kind and living my own life as much as is possible. I pray constantly and that's where I cry my eyes out, am strong otherwise for the most part except for when I get it from my son for too long. But I guess I still started thinking we were moving ahead and hoping we were going to be entering the next stage, so I am sad to hear from you experts what I was secretly thinking already, that he is still in replay.

He went to his parents for a couple of weeks at end of Dec at my suggestion to work on his dissertation, and it was so awful with his father that he was almost himself on the phone in his longing to come home and telling me what was going on. He came home early to escape and was really nice the first day, and then back to the tunnel, the spew, the withdrawal.

He is so withdrawn and buried in his work that I keep thinking he is through replay. But I guess not. It's so depressing to think of how much longer I have to go. I would say that we're in year three if I really think about the troubles in the first stages, but bomb drop was December 2013, that was when things got really weird and progressively more and more horrible.

I am thankful for this affliction, which brought me deeply to God. I don't think that would have happened otherwise. But some days I am so so so weary.

Love to you all, these boards keep me going when I need some secular confirmation that everything is "normal"! I must have read Wonka's posts on MLC a thousand times. I rely deeply on the daily e-mails from Charlayne Cares, could not have made it this far without them.

[job]

Gerda,
Some of them will have OM/OW and others will focus on work or some type of recreational activity. It sounds like your h had both the OW and now is focusing on work completely. I hate to say this, but you can't put a time limit on his replay actions nor on how long his MLC will last. It will take as long as it takes for him to face his childhood issues, accept what can or can't be changed and then grow up. Some come thru the crisis and others don't.

Do not attempt to stir the pot as the more you try to push, pull or fix him, the longer his crisis will be. Why? Because his focus will be on doing the exact opposite of what you want and his focus needs to be on himself and whatever he's doing. Stirring the pot just makes them more angry and determined that you and the marriage are the problem.

Yes, you may have seen the old h when you had surgery. The surgery snapped him back to reality for a very short period of time and we call that moments of clarity, but they are short lived. I'm sorry he wasn't more supportive during that time. They really can't deal w/illness, surgery or death very well. Mortality scares them and they have this "need" to run and try to recapture their youth, i.e., starting at the time where they were emotionally stunted in childhood. They feel that something is missing and they have to go back and find that missing link.

It's best to not try to focus so much on the stages. A watched pot never boils and that's very true. Put the ladle away and leave the pot to simmer. He needs lots of time and space to figure things out.

Your focus has to be on your son and try to help him navigate his growing up pains. Does your son have a male, other than his father, that he can talk to? If so, then it might be helpful for him to talk to that person. Maybe a counselor, coach or uncle could be a good "listening" partner for him. I can understand your son's anger. He sees his father is not acting properly and he's frustrated w/him. He hears him talking to you a certain way and that frustrates him. I know you are a safe place for him to land, but the anger concerns me w/respect to your son. He needs an outlet to release it and true, you are a safe person to express it to, but he also needs a physical outlet as well. That could be a sport or something such as walking, hiking, etc. This would allow him to work off that anger.

You have to step back and allow your h to find himself. This does not mean that you have to be a door mat and when he starts that nasty spewing, look him in the eye and tell him that when he calms down, that you will happy to listen to him and then walk away. Another good technique is when he starts spewing, change the subject, talk about the weather or something else...this stops them in their tracks.

Keep the focus on you and your son. Your h is on a journey of self discovery and it's going to take a long time. While he's off on that journey, it is a time of self discovery for you and your son. What plans do you and your son have for the days ahead? Maybe it's time to think of some fun and educational things to do.

[Cadet]

Gerda

I have now been studying MLC for 5 and a half years.
The fact that he never left the home, makes him into what I will call a low energy MLC'er or contact type.
The good news is that the high energy antics are not a wild, the bad news is that this type of MLC seems to take longer to resolve itself IMHO.
I also believe that the length of time may be tied to what age the childhood issue happened and how long it will take to grow up from that point in time, however that is only my own theory.

Job has given you good advice and explanation,
and I tried stirring the pot 5 years ago and it did not help.

My suggestion is to keep focusing on yourself and do nothing that will make this crisis any longer as it takes pretty much forever as it is.

[kml]

He is a classic case -- terrible abusive childhood with the world's meanest father, running away from home, etc.

My husband does spew at me but not anything like that, it's all the usual MLC stuff blaming me for everything and misremembering our life together. My son is a beautiful boy and I have no fears for him in that regard, he is just very very angry and I am a safe person to express it to.

I'm sorry, but hours of blatantly abusive spew at you is NOT just your son expressing his fears in a safe place. This is a boy who is being TAUGHT by his father's example that it is ok to devalue and blame the women in your life. THIS IS HOW ABUSERS ARE MADE. And the fact that you allow it to go on for hours just shows that you don't have healthy boundaries in this regard.

Also, the fact that your son is acting out in this way, shows that the situation at home is having a TERRIBLE effect on him. YOU may be strong enough to choose to sit through your H's spew, but subjecting your kids to this is another matter entirely.

Look, I was raised Catholic. The Catholic church does not oppose separation in cases of abuse. You don't have to divorce him or do anything at all legally. But if the situation isn't improving you may need to get your kids out of there until your H comes to his senses.

There's no guarantee if or when your H will come out of his MLC crisis. You can stand for him from a distance. And he very well may "hit bottom" and come out of it sooner if he has to deal with the reality of being separated from his family.

I know you're financially dependent on him, but it also sounds like he's being very irresponsible with money and charging up your credit cards in your name etc. You need to take steps to protect yourself financially, these MLCers can wreak incredible financial disaster.

Look - a good parent sets boundaries for their kids - they can't eat candy all day, tough the hot stove, (can't call their mother horrible names without being put in TIME OUT or some other consequences!!!). Similarly, you may need to set some healthy boundaries with your H - DBing is not just about being a doormat and letting someone treat you and your kids horribly.

[Gerda]

Job, I want to thank you for your very kind post full of practical advice too, and Cadet, for your kindly realism. It was very helpful to me and thinking about what you wrote has helped to recenter me. I was starting to think that we were moving to the last stages and I realize I have to accept that it could take a lot longer. I knew on some level that it was still replay but I was denying it to myself. And I have been lazy and confused lately about setting limits with my husband, sometimes I think I have to listen to him blaming me for the past because I have read so much about listening to them! But your post, Job, reminded me of the very easy and practical way to listen but limit. I know it seems simple but we forget in the moment!

Job, you are so right about having other men around. I have been on a search for a man and just the other night I think I found a nice teenager to play basketball with him. Thankfully he loves soccer and has gotten really into that this year, and the Coach is a great man. But for the most part, not having any man to fill in for his beloved father is the crisis for my son. No family at all to support me as far as uncles or cousins or grandpas, no one who understands my stand, and no men to fill in and be a friend to my boy during this time. He has counseling at his school and loves soccer, and we own a restaurant which is kind of like a family as far as staff, a few men there who are at least a little bit of a presence in his life, so I feel really lucky to have all those support systems -- and have to remind myself that I could be a lot more alone than I am!

And I would like to say that reading what you and Cadet wrote reminded me that I can't rush anything, and helped to remind me of my path right now, not to expect anything from my lost H but to just be there for my kids and to be so thankful that I can, however hard and confusing it is.

My husband was really nice to the kids the night after I wrote my first post, I even left the house and he was with them alone for an hour, sitting by the fire and playing. And my son and I shared some special alone-time the last couple days taking late night walks with our dog and talking as we always do at night after saying our prayers and shutting the light. And then tonight when I got back from work I found that my son had left me the most beautiful letter you can imagine, all about how he has decided to savor life and to enjoy it because it's too short not to. He even said that though it has been hard, he is trying to remember that everything happens for the Good, and that he has had some great moments in his life and wants to have a lot more with me and with the family. I just sat there sobbing at the table. I felt like my prayers had been answered. If I can figure out how to scan it and post it, I will, it is so touching and fills me with hope.

Thank you for the support!

[LiveNow]

Gerda - sounds like your son is a perfect candidate for a mentoring program. Do you have one nearby? Check with your city or school district. I've just become a mentor for a young girl, and the whole goal is to be a trusted, stable adult presence in the kid's life, someone who will listen to them and do fun things with them but not from a parenting perspective, more as a friend and sounding board. Check it out. But, I agree with KML - the yelling and name-calling should not be allowed to continue...whatever the circumstances. Please don't ignore it. If your son is as you otherwise describe, then it shouldn't take much to set him back on the right path, but the sooner the better. Best of luck to you.