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#2499999 10/23/14 07:23 PM
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So, a week ago Monday I came back home to stay in our guest room. I had been spending M-F at my parents and weekends with our boys at the house...Leaving my WAW to have the weekends free to do as she wanted.

I came back 10/13 and said I was coming back home. The week has been fine, but mostly because now that I am back, WAW leaves after dinner and stays out until 12 - 1 am every night.

There has been some mixed signals. I was leaving nice notes and setting up coffee maker in the mornings all last week. These weren't 'lovey' notes, just nice notes. W texted me and thanked me and mentioned them. Then she left for the weekend. I had children all weekend, and told her she was welcome to stay. I've been giving her space, not asking where she's been, who she's with. No arguing. No following her around.

After weekend, I wrote her a letter that was focused on her and my empathy to her feelings. I specifically said in the letter it was not to change her mind or convince her. No excuses, no justifications for things I've done that have brought her to feeling the way she feels. She had texted me this Monday morning and lamented she was disappointed I had not left her a note. I went home for lunch, when she wasn't home, and left her the letter I had written. She is not comfortable discussing feelings or emotions at all really, and she said later in the afternoon she was having a hard time with the letter.

After I got home she went out with a friend to 'discuss' the letter.

I have not been leaving notes or coffee set up since. I've been LRT and detaching and mentally preparing that this is it and permanent.

Tuesday after work she went to a meeting about an upcoming school auction. I was at home with the boys. She didn't come home until 1 am. We now have a guest staying with us in the guest room, so I was in our bed. She got in bed and went to sleep.

The next morning we were both up early, as she had agreed to watch a friend's baby. As I was about to leave to take S7 to school, standing in entry way, she placed her hand on my arm. Subtle, but the first time she'd initiated physical touch in a few weeks.

Then yesterday she texted me and asked if I was distancing myself from her. I had no idea how to answer this. She has been blatantly distancing herself from me, emotionally, physically, and stated as such.

I answered that I am focusing on what I have control over. I am working on me. Doing what is right for me.

She asked how that related to how I currently feel about her and changes in behavior with her. I asked her to be more specific and she refused. She said I seemed closed off.

I said I am moving forward and feeling good about myself. I said I stand by not wanting a divorce but I will accept that reality.

She then said, "so all the niceties are over now?". I completely didn't understand. She has said she's done. I began to feel that leaving the notes etc. was pressure and pursuing her. I stopped for 2 days and she's upset. I said no, but I am evaluating why I'm doing those things. I want them to be no strings attached, not because I expect them to get a certain response from her.

She then said "whatever. I don't know if I can be in the same house as you right now. I knew it was all BS."

I assured her is wasn't fake, I meant the things I've said and feel. But I am prepared to move forward alone. I said I am here and available if she wants to talk. She said she has closed up shop, she's done. Then said "let's file".

I reiterated I did not want a divorce, and I would not file for divorce, but if that is what's right for her then I will accept that reality. And again said I am available to talk.

She said she was tired of the therapy speak. She then asked "What do you want from me?" I tried to get her to open up a little more about what that means, I wanted to understand the question and why she asked it.

She said my answers seem vague and non-specific.

Got home yesterday with PMA in full swing, gave her a big hug in kitchen, which she accepted and I could feel her release a little and lay her head on my shoulder.

Then we had an ok conversation...that turned into her wanting to discuss some specifics about divorce, and her saying she does not want me at the house. I argued a bit, and tried to stand my ground about not leaving. That I am giving her space, she's free to come and go and she pleases and I am not pressuring her or following her around. That I want to be there to provide as stable an environment for kids as possible. She said she wants distance, doesn't want to be living in same house. Wants to go back to our 'nesting' arrangement; kids stay in house, we rotate. (of course though, she still wants me at the house on the weekend. There isn't a particular OM, but she has dated, and I think interested in one guy).

We argued a bit. I left to go to gym, and read more of DR.

I came home about 8:30 and asked if we could talk for a minute. Had a very civil conversation. I said I wanted to give her what she wants right now. That if that's the kind of space she needs, then I'm open to working out an arrangement. She said she doesn't want to be divorced, but can't stay in this R. We didn't really have a R talk. (I of course, after this wake up call, have been making great strides and changes...although typically too little too late).

ANYWAY, she left. I cleaned up dinner, kids in bed, etc. I went to bed about 10:30, tossed and turned, really beating myself up about the argument. Shouldn't have engaged, should have redirected conversation. Oh well, it's done. I really wanted her there. I haven't been feeling that way, been detaching and ok with it. But last night I was aching, restless, mind racing. Wished she were there, even if cold. Finally fell asleep.

Woke up in the night, and she was by the bed, about to lay down. I said her name, and she said "I came home" (This morning I saw that she had texted me at 12:20 saying she was coming home. I'm pretty sure she went to her mother's.) She laid down, and against ALL my better judgment, I reached out and touched her back. I caressed her. Then I asked her to come to me, and she did. She rolled over and laid her head on my chest and we fell asleep.

I know this doesn't mean anything. And I know I am screwing up.

I am getting crazy mixed signals. I don't understand anything.

She wants to have an amicable divorce, remain friends, not involve lawyers...but also wants to stay in the house with the kids, I leave, I pay child support.

I don't know if she's confused or having an internal struggle, or if I am being played / manipulated.

We haven't talked about it today, but she wants to go back to rotating in / out of house. Should I agree? Should I stay?

ANY advice would be appreciated. This is complicated because while I feel she is the WAS at this point, because I want to work it out, very recently, 4-5 weeks ago, I was the WAS, with her begging to reconcile...

We are very very off track and screwed up right now. I don't know what to do.


H - 33 W - 31
Married 7 years 9 mos
2S - 7 and 3
Joined: Oct 2014
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Don't leave! Keep reading DR book. I think you are making some good progress. I am a newbie but your W seems like she wants this to work but she has a hard time believing it is possible.

Hang in there and don't leave. Stay calm, read and study DR and hang in there.

Sending good vibes your way.


M:25 years at BD w/ 2 daughters
BD: 5/14
Separated 6/14 - H moved cross country w/OW
D Final 9/17

“I can be changed by what happens to me. But I refuse to be reduced by it.”
― Maya Angelou



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In our discussion yesterday, when I put my foot down and said I would not leave (She's welcome to leave, come and go as she likes, I'm giving her space), she seemed to make it clear that if I did not give her the space in the way that she wants it (ie. us rotating the house, but not living together, me not staying in the house full time), then she will file for divorce.

She pulled the "if you respect me as a person, if you love me the way you say you do" card.

I know, I know, believe none of what you hear and half of what you see.

Should I stay firm and not leave the house? I'm not badgering her, asking her whereabouts, nothing. But she is uncomfortable with me being there and almost every night has left after dinner and come home at midnight or later.

Am I doing more good or damage by not leaving?


H - 33 W - 31
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Pretty standard advice around here, especially with young children involved, is not to leave the house. At least not without seeing a lawyer first. Can be considered abandonment in a lot of states.


Everybody hurts. It's part of life. Don't miss the good stuff.
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I also sort of feel like she is giving me positives to warm me up to the idea that we can have an amicable divorce, be friends, etc.

I feel like as long as I am going the direction she wants, then she will play nice, but if I don't, then she is going to throw a fit. I also feel like she's playing me that if I resist, it is further damaging her trust in me, or that we can reconcile.

Ugh...


H - 33 W - 31
Married 7 years 9 mos
2S - 7 and 3
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Drew - I'm in OK. I wouldn't be 'moving out' per se. She wants to go back to her at the house with the kids M-F, with me having dinner or interaction with kids one day a week, or more, and taking S7 to school in mornings.

Then I would have the boys, at the same house, our house, Friday afternoon - Sunday evening.

I don't think it would be interpreted as abandonment.

I just don't know if I should do what I feel is right for me, or what I think might give me a better chance at reconciliation. I do think there's a chance. Should I let her throw her fit, or not risk it?

123Gwen - I absolutely agree with you. She definitely has a hard time believing it's possible. she thinks there are things she can not forgive or get over. I just don't know how much of a harda** to be right now about what's right for me and our children.

Last edited by Chnging; 10/23/14 09:43 PM.

H - 33 W - 31
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Well, I'm definitely not a vet at this, and have had similar confusions as you have regarding physical contact and such. Just an outsider looking in, I see cake eating. She wants you as the back up as she goes out all night to carouse around. Now that you are pulling back and detaching she feels that and it bothers her that you may not be there as the back up should she want to come back.

I'm in the boat that you should stay in the house, maybe in different beds. I'm in the same bed with my WAW, but I sometimes think I'd sleep better with her on the couch. However, there are plenty of DBers out there who wish their WAS was in their bed at night, so I try to be careful about what I wish for. However I don't think living apart would help my sitch. I give her space when she's in the house, even told her she was free to go out when she wants as she's an adult. But having her stay out all night, knowing when she does it's to swill 3x the beer she would have before this started, and getting home at 3:00am, rubs me wrong for a mother of two.

HOWEVER, what we need to know about is how you were the WAS 5 weeks ago. She might be justified to jerk you around (maybe) depending on what you were doing. What did you mean by saying you were the WAS? Fess up. We might beat you up, but promise no bruising. . .


Me: 37, W: 36
S6, S3
M: 8
T:11
Discovered 1st A: 9/3/14
Began DB: 9/20/14
W "ended" 1st A repeatedly
Discovered at least 3 more A's, filed 10/29/14

God is great, beer is good, and people are crazy.
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Blndsid - I'll try to make this as succinct as possible.

Along with typical bad husband / wife dynamics for several years (ie, me responding as if she were attacking me when she was trying to express concerns, although her approaches were not gentle. Me responding defensively, her being defensive, bad communication, etc.), we recently made some very serious mistakes in regards to our marriage.

Through some poor choices, and over confident belief that we were more stable than we really were, we opened our marriage to non-monogamy. My W was interested in exploring her attraction to women, alone. She also encouraged me to have a physical relationship with a woman. I was at first reluctant, believing the reality would be different than what she claimed to be ok with.

Glossing over a lot here, she had a steady thing with a woman from couple friends of ours. I met a woman, also married, that I enjoyed seeing and we hit it off.

We actually felt that being 'open' contributed to honesty in our marriage. We had no reasons to lie. We were honest about our desires, whereabouts, and more. And it didn't seem to be affecting our relationship negatively, actually making it better.

My W initially expressed concerns over the relationship going beyond just physical. I was selfish and reasoned away her concerns. Things were fine for a while, and in fact we were all friends. Let me be clear, I was becoming emotionally involved with the OW, but I had absolutely no intention of leaving my wife. I did not love the OW more than my wife, I had no desire to divorce, or be only with OW. Ever.

My W then began to express dissatisfaction. She said it was hypocritical of me to have a relationship with someone of the opposite sex, and her not be able to. This had been my boundary from the beginning. She wanted to explore a same sex relationship, and she wanted me, as the HD partner, to have the option to see someone else as well.

I was not ok with this. I argued that we were both getting what we had wanted and my boundaries stood.

Long story short, she ended up hiding and lying that she had met up with the woman I was seeing H.

This devastated me. I viewed this and felt that it was cheating. Although we were definitely engaged in an alternative relationship, that didn't mean to me that boundaries didn't need to be respected.

She, of course, reasoned that I had made her feel controlled, and that she wanted what I had.

I reacted very poorly to all of this. I took the pity party, I'm a victim, you've wronged me stance. I threatened breaking up our marriage. She begged and pleaded for a while for me to let her love me, to close our marriage, to put things back together.

I was staying at my parents, we had 'separated', and I had asked that both of us immediately stop doing anything else to damage our marriage. I went NC with the OW. W and I were talking. I was stating that if we were going to move forward, things have to be different. Advocating for getting us back on a healthy relationship track.

I went home one Thursday night, and talked to W. Then we went to bed. I woke up and used the restroom and left my phone there. I went back to bed and snoozed. Then needed to know what time it was and if I needed to get up. I really was NOT snooping on her phone. Cuddling in bed, I felt her phone by my hand and picked it up to check the time...and saw a text from a man I did not know.

I confronted her and asked who it was? Why was she texting with him if we had agreed to stop seeing or doing anything to add to our damage?

She stood firm that our 'separation' meant we could do as we pleased. She viewed it as a trial divorce.

I threatened then to file that day. (I didn't) I left for work angry.

She left for the weekend and I had the children. Something changed that weekend. I could sense it.

When she came home Sunday I sat down with her and asked what was going on. That's when she said she "had heard me" and she was done.

Since then, I completely woke up. I completely accept my responsibility for the mistakes I've made. All of the sudden, when faced with the actual reality of my W leaving, I have realized what is most important to me, what my priorities are, how many mistakes I and we have made. I have 180'd in many ways, and genuinely. I'm in counseling, and am very very clear about what I want.

But since that episode, she has definitely become the WAS. I did all the wrong things, too. Pleaded, begged, cried, guilted about our family, shamed. I stopped quickly though.

Listen, I'm absolutely aware that we have a LOT to deal with, if we reconcile. It's really not as screwed up as it sounds. We are very normal, intelligent, middle class people. There is a lot of good and love in our R. We've just made very poor choices.

So...that's roughly why I'm here. And I'm not sure how to handle my interaction with my W. I do not want to divorce. I want to reconcile, and address our issues, and have a new, much much better marriage. She now, is classic WAW. Although, I feel like I was there recently, although in hindsight, not seriously. It was manipulation.

Lay it on me. Judge me. Tell me how badly I've screwed up my marriage. I'm aware.

I'm reading DR, and then DB. I do not want to lose my family. I don't want to lose my wife.

I guess I don't have any specific questions right this minute. I'll wait to hear what you all think of how bad my sitch is.

And to top it off...now I'm getting bizarro mixed signals from her.

Last edited by Chnging; 10/24/14 08:26 PM.

H - 33 W - 31
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Reading through your email there are multiple issues at stake. I am glad that you are reading DB and DR. At this point, I urge you to speak to a Divorce Busting Coach to really focus on your marriage goals and try to get your marriage back on track. The expert professional one on one coaching will make a difference in your situation. There is much that can be done. Call me to discuss our coaching program. 303-444-7004


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Roberta - I would very much like to. I need to get some financial ducks in a row.


Anyway, I'm having a hard time deciding what tact to take here. Am I the LBS at this point? Or do I have responsibility in playing into her possible feelings that she was recently LBS?

I have been placating to keep some peace, but I also feel like this plays into my "nice guy syndrome" (Also reading No More Mr. Nice Guy as suggested on another thread). I feel like I should be assertive, not controlling or demanding, but assertive.

I keep reading others say "don't leave the bedroom, don't leave the house," and that's what I want to do. If she wants to leave, then it's on her. I know, however, in my sitch, this will cause gnashing of teeth from her.

I need to gain / earn respect back here. I'm willing to work on the M / R. I'm working on myself, absolutely. I'm also ready to accept her at her word and GAL, LRT, and move on, although I don't want to.

Last night she said she didn't want me to sleep on the couch and welcomed me in bed. We weren't affectionate, but this morning as I got ready in the bathroom, she came in and gave me a prolonged hug.

Miiiiixxxxxxeeeeedddd signals.

I recently said, after our argument on Tuesday, that if she wanted space that involved us rotating in the house for the kids, I would be open to that.

I've now rethought that, and I don't want to leave the house at all. In fact, I don't want to leave our room. If she wants to leave, she's welcome to.

Thoughts on this stance?


H - 33 W - 31
Married 7 years 9 mos
2S - 7 and 3
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