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MM

I have stopped posting to you because IMO, you really are not ready or do not want to hear what EVERYBODY has been saying to you. For the most part everyone has continue to say the same thing to you. IMO, you have had some of the best poster that I know post to you and you still defend, and still cannot see what people are trying to say. Einstein definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

Let me ask you a few questions….are you really ready to hear what people have to say? Are you really ready to walk away from this man, if only for a period of time to work on YOU and to get YOU to a place emotionally where you feel better? Are you ready to finally face your fear of losing him? IMO, you are so afraid of losing him that you will do anything it take to keep him. Yes this site is about saving marriages/relationships – that is true. The approach though is one that you do not seem to be able to grasp, which is …..SAVE YOURSELF, FIX YOURSELF FIRST and then try and salvage the R.

IMO, because everything you continue to do is to GET HIM BACK – you are not spending the time on trying to fix yourself. I agree with the others that you really need more help than this board can provide; however, if you were willing to really LET GO…then maybe…maybe…you can finally begin to fix yourself.

A couple of examples:
1) You want to buy a house for YOU – it will, according to you help you feel independent. Interesting enough…you claim to not have the money for IC. So to me, this tells me that YOU are not willing to do what it takes to fix YOU. The house is more important. IMO, you will remain on the hamster wheel until you decide to finally but YOURSELF first.
2) You continue to defend him – a clear sign of an abuse victim. Yet you do not see it. An IC would help you realize this – IF you went in to see the person to fix yourself – NOT to get him back.
3) I have posted that what you do are ACTIONS to get HIM back. Ya know MM, the same people that you claim do not SEE It from your perspective WERE IN YOUR SHOES before. I understand why you do what you do – I really do. I also know why I did what I did – initially.
4)
Quote:
I already understand that I cannot fix, push or manipulate him.... I goofed this time, it was a mistake.... pushing and manipulating. 2 x 4 to self!! I am still impatient!!

Do you really understand that you cannot fix him? You said it was a mistake your actions…you even gave yourself a 2x4….yet you brush it off as a simple mistake. What you FAIL to see is that this ^^^ is a clear sign that YOU are not spending enough time trying to FIX YOU.

Quote:
I am doing the work to improve myself...

Only you know this….what I find interesting is that most of the poster that have posted to you….would disagree, but then again…I know what your answer would be…. “we just do know…you see more in him….you are working on it….you are making progress…so is he…..” DB101 – validate. Read your responses to your fellow posters. Do you feel you validate US? Do you think your response just to the people on this board are consistent with who YOU want to be? Honestly, they are quite dismissive. I will not speak for everyone else… but when I spend time to try and post to you time after time after time….only to be dismissed. Why should I keep trying?


Quote:
I am wondering why I am not getting more of this kind of advice?...

Because the people who have been posting to you do not agree that this is applicable to YOU. That is why. I am not here to tell you what you WANT to hear. If you want that….ya came to the wrong place.

Quote:
it "seems" as tho many of you expect him to be offering marriage or to be ready for counselling...

Actually…..what you interpret as “seems”…is the problem. You hear what YOU WANT to hear. YOU interpret the way YOU want to interpret it. Personally, I think I have said 1,000…..work on yourself and let him go. That is not saying he should offer marriage. More importantly….. look at most of your posts….notice your thought process is what we expect “HE” should be doing. You see you want US to change HIM. You want us to tell YOU how to change HIM. MM, no one is gonna change HIM except himself. When you realize that you may finally take a different approach. Like……work on CHANGING YOURSELF.

So you ask….how are you not valuing myself….

IMO, the way you post, the way I see you think about things……if your BF were to say to you….. shove a banana in between your arms pits and jump up like a chicken for 4 days and THEN I will take you back and we will go back to the way things were….I actually believe you would do it.

Another point….your anger…..

Yep…subtle as it is…..is usually directed to the poster that do not agree with you. Why not take some of that anger and direct it towards HIM for once. Know why you will not…..cause you afraid to lose him.

When you finally stop being afraid to lose him is when you will find yourself.

When you find yourself …..that MM….

Is when YOU give yourself the best chance to have the R that you want….be it with him or with someone else.

Oh…and MLC or NOT….the steps are the same…..

Work on YOU, fix YOU, GAL, Detach……then maybe….you have shot.


I eagerly await your response, which I am sure will just tell me to explain further...to expand...or that I am not seeing or understanding what you are saying.


"The difficulties of Life are intended to make us BETTER,not bitter".
"Fear is a prison, where you are the jailer. FREE YOURSELF!"
"Life is usually all about how you handle Plan B." - Jack3Beans
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Quote:
I meant to say that your opinion is off because somehow it was either written wrong or taken wrong. I am not out to make you wrong... but to somehow right the circumstance/situation. I hope you understand.

This response from you to smurf...was really enough for me MM.

Good luck. Really. Get yourself into IC. I think it the best thing you can do for yourself. I wish you much love and blessings in your life.


"The difficulties of Life are intended to make us BETTER,not bitter".
"Fear is a prison, where you are the jailer. FREE YOURSELF!"
"Life is usually all about how you handle Plan B." - Jack3Beans
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MM, you say you have GAL, you always say you have GAL, but we hear so little of it that it is hard imagine that it is impacting your sitch at all. Everyone on here echo's the same thing; GAL, GAl and more GAL. And they do GAL and it becomes part of their lives. I don't mean your casual 1 or 2 lines once in awhile that mentions dinner with DD. You need GAL.

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Magic,
You need to get some professional counseling to better understand yourself. If you weren't able to speak to your doctor yesterday, then continue trying until you do. The issues that you have are issues that we can't help you fix. Only you and a therapist can do this, if you are willing to do the necessary work to figure out why you do the things that you do. This board can't help you with those deep underlying issues, but IC will be the key to helping you better understand yourself.


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Eric... how did I offend you in my response to Smurf? I am apologizing for the mix up & taking some responsibility and offering an explanation. Why would I want her (or anyone) to be ill-informed...how does that help her to understand my sitch better or for me to receive proper advice based on truth?... I don't get it... am I supposed to let it slide and ignore it?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My thoughts before bed last night... Yes, I am too available which may come across as needy/clingy. Also, my recent behaviour where I shared my insecurities & it makes me look weak. Add to this, learning about self value.

From this... I am prepared to step back from him (somewhat) and learn to be more independent. Learn what a life without him "there" is like. To be able to do this, I have been taking the steps to purchase a house. Until then, I don't know what else I can do. What can be done today?

Eric...I am responding because you took the time to ask the questions... so, lets break this down, please. If you can, I have asked questions in return which I feel will help me to understand your point better. I am truly trying to understand. However, if you feel that its too much.. I am sorry. I felt that responding in this length would be beneficial.

Eric, you ask... am I READY to hear what people say?... I honestly believe I am doing this already & have for many months and am prepared for more. Otherwise, how did I grow & how he come back?

am I ready to walk away from this man (if temporary) to help myself?... Yes, however I feel that I already did this... and he came forward. Explain why this is not the case? How do you see this differently?

I feel I did face my fear of losing him...it sucked... I was on my path (admit still early on my path) to acceptance & learning to go on without him. I had accepted that he may be with OW & be living a life without me too. I was considering dating. I was considering my business/work options. I was reviewing and organizing my finances. I was spending ALOT of time with friends & going out to concerts....GAL. I belong to a women's group that helps to keep me inline. When you say that "save yourself, fix yourself first & then work on R".... doesn't the above show this is what I have been doing?... my next goals are to work on my relationships with my daughter & parents. They were symptoms to my growth. I need to do some repair there.

Now, I agree with you partially when you say that "everything" I am doing is to get him back.... hmmmmm... I would say that he is on the road back, so everything I have done, has helped for him to come back... but it was NOT just to get him back... it was about changes I needed to make...for me. AND... there are still more to make..for me.... the bonus was getting him to look my way again.

When you suggest in order for me to fix myself, I must let go... how do I let go? Are you suggesting I do it again? (please be specific) Again, I feel like I did... I stopped asking him stuff, I didn't care anymore what he was doing or who he was with, I feel I detached myself because I loved him enough to let him go figure himself out... <<< isn't this letting go?

To be specific to your examples:

1) I do not take a weekly income. We take annual income ... this is changing (our accountant is back in 2 weeks, this is our new agenda). Therefore, my cash flow is limited. I have large funds available to place a down payment on a house, but my pocket money is nil.... I find $250/visit VERY expensive. What do others pay "out of pocket"?
2) If & when I get to counselling... it will be to fix myself....then aim for MC
3) I believe you.
4) yes, it was my mistake... and I have been very hard on myself for 2 years. Afraid to make a mistake. It was Job who suggested at one point to learn by my mistake & not do it again. To not beat myself up so much.... I am still in "school". I forgive myself too (this is new, this is growth)

dismissive? I am truly sorry if you feel that way and if my ways come across like that. I KNOW that you and many of the wise posters on here spend ALOT of time trying to teach me & get frustrated. Please believe me I get frustrated too... but, never dismissive. I look back at times to review what you have said & try to apply it. to try it on... to see if it makes sense. You say many of the posters would disagree that I am working on myself... this is upsetting because I know that when I look over my shoulder to where I was & where I am now, there has been change.

Believe me... I do NOT want the advice of "tell her what she wants to hear".. this would not be helpful. I do want to know why its not applicable...because if I look at him & where I was almost 2 years ago... he is not gone, he is around, he was completely gone before... now he is sniffing...checking things out. Isn't he? This is how I see it... .and his words are now lining up with his actions... its a start.. isn't it?

Admittingly, at times I want him to do more changing and I guess it comes across as me asking how to make him change (He needs to want the changes himself... and he says he does). I guess what I am after is what further changes can I make in myself to get what I want from him.... I want it faster. I am impatient (I get that).

Knowing me.. the new me... I would NOT do a ridiculous dance to get him back... this is hurtful. Ouch. I guess it appears to many on here, that I would... not sure what to say or do to make anyone believe any different.

It is my recent training & belief to learn to sit back and allow him to do the work. To see what HE really wants. Manipulation and controlling has worked in the past to getting what I wanted, but only temporary. I am learning that "IF" I can hold off, listen & watch... I may see & come to know what HIS wants are. <<< this is more authentic!! smile

I will take what you say about losing him... I do not want to lose him... however, I don't "fear" losing him anymore. I am not near as scared as I used to be... I have lived through almost 2 years of him not by my side. I have more to go on this (getting a house will help). I know other men would desire me & some may treat me even better than him. It is my choice to want to work on things with him.

Yes, MLC or not.. the steps have been the same: continue to work on me, GAL, and stay detached (until safe).... I am determined. I am the prize.


M:46 H:49 T:20yrs
myD:22
H distant summer/12
H sleeping in b'ment: Nov/12
BD: Dec 2/12
asked me begin to move end of Jan/13
moved Jan 7/13 (left my stuff)
"agreed" to "working on r" Mar 3/13(lipservice!)
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hey Magic! I just wanted to remind you how to find any poster's old posts. Click on his or her name (in the column on the left, next to their message). A drop down list will come up. Click on "view posts" - a grid will come up with all of that poster's posts. To see those he or she created, click on "topics created." I did that with Sunshine Lewis, and found her old posts back to December 2008 in ten seconds flat.

I'm sort of sad to see so little progress in your sitch since I last checked in on you; I think last May when my D was finalized. Best of luck to you, and my advice to you stays the same - detach, let go, move forward, move on, God bless. smile


Linda

Me 65, Ex 64
M 38 y
2 adult S, 4 G-Kids
MLC 11/07
BD 12/09
D 3/14
Dating nice guy 7/14
Engaged to nice guy 12/17
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Magic,
When someone makes a mistake, once, twice or even three times, they shouldn't beat themselves up over it....however, when the person continues to make the same mistake over and over again and doesn't learn from that mistake, then that person needs to sit down and take a hard look at themselves and ask....why do I continue to make the same mistake over and over again?

Your behavior and the way that you interact w/your former partner reminds me of an addict. Your former partner is the drug. You can't leave him alone. When he drops a few crumbs of warmth, you are right there gobbling them up. You have even admitted that you shouldn't do certain things and yet the minute you are given an inch, you do them. Your words that you post here do not match your actions in many instances. Before you ask for examples, go back and read your posting of the other night.

When you are ready to do the necessary work on yourself, I will be more than happy to come back and post to you.

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Originally Posted By: Smurf_SMR
Well silly me for interpreting wrong

As I said in my 2nd post

>>>>> your threads are full of people offering advice, just to be rebuked. I don't intend to be another.


Sorry for the hijack MM

Simon - welcome back, looks like the last purge did in your resources thread.

We have been trying to put them back together and any help you can give, please post here on this thread

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...600#Post2481600

Hijack over.


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Originally Posted By: makingmagic
Eric... how did I offend you in my response to Smurf? I am apologizing for the mix up & taking some responsibility and offering an explanation. Why would I want her (or anyone) to be ill-informed...how does that help her to understand my sitch better or for me to receive proper advice based on truth?... I don't get it... am I supposed to let it slide and ignore it?


For many that post...

Often, it is the behavioral patterns, that our posts are directed towards more so than the direct events in each sitch...


Everyone that posts to you, "gets it"....

The details really aren't THAT important...( yes, really)

It is your behavioral patterns that send up the red flags.

And they have not changed....






Smurf, good to see you here : )

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MM

I decided to respond to your last post to me. I do not intend to spend much more time going back and forth with you. That said, I believe that deep down inside you really do want to change. I think just do not know how to and the deep seeded issues I see in you may never allow you to see the bigger problem – hence I do feel that you need to get yourself into therapy as soon as possible. Cost IMO, should not be a consideration. I would ask yourself…how much is your happiness and emotional well being worth to YOU? Me? If it was 1,000 a session – I would pay it. I would borrow it. I would sell stuff to get it. It really does matter. What matters is that YOU get the help that you need.

You seem to need a play by play of EXACTLY what to do and what to say. So I am taking the time as a last ditch effort in the hopes that maybe just maybe this is what you need. I do not expect to have to spell it out any more specifically than what I am about to write. NO one here is sitting/standing next to you when you communicate and deal with your bf. Maybe that is what you need – even though…that would not address the bigger issues that I believe are in play here. As Mach posted…it is the behavioral patterns that are the issue.

Have you ever heard of a cycle….you know something that goes round and round.

Step 1 – MM post update. Ask for advice.
Step 2 – poster responds.
Step 3 – MM claims poster did not understand what she wrote
Step 4 – Poster responds
Step 5 – MM claims poster did not understand so she had to “clarify” so that the advice was “fact based”.
Step 6 – Poster responds
Step 7 – MM responds and says poster does not get it and cannot see what she sees.
Step 8 – Poster responds and tries another approach.
Step 9 – MM responds claims poster did not understand what she wrote and start to defend
Step 10 – Poster responds
Step 11 – MM says she gets it but that poster a, b and c, did not understand what she is trying to say.
Step 12 – Poster responds
Step 13- MM apologizes if she has annoyed a poster. She then proceeds to Step 2, 3, 5, 7, 9 or 11.
Step 14 – Poster stops posting to MM.

Stop…repeat…start at Step 1.

I hope one day you see this patter MM….I really do.

Anywhooo…getting back to the play by play of exactly what I would do if I were YOU.

In short…you want to know what to do to accomplish your goals right? The goals are broadly defined as 1) get him back or back to you in a manner that you deem acceptable (i.e. just a good R with him again) and 2) learn self worth and become more independent. My response is based on trying to provide you with as much specific to achieve the goals I mentioned above. If you have additional goals….I cannot help with these.

Here is what I would do.

Schedule a meeting with your BF. It will be discussion between you and him. It is not a work meeting. It is a relationship meeting (yes I know you are gonna say…you are not suppose to have them – I get that. FTR, the tips that people give you are not black and white. Every person sitch is different. The tips are GENERAL in nature and are intended, at least IMO, to give you guidance toward general behaviors and actions that you may want to consider using to achieve your goals)

At the meeting you will be giving your BF the option to choose. His choices should tell you all that you need to know. At the same time you will be laying down boundaries that are needed for YOUR emotional health, while also being considerate of his needs. The key though…is that YOUR needs/boundaries come first – cause…at the end of the day…you are responsible for your well being.


- BR, I have something to discuss with you and I ask you to listen to me in totally before you respond. Please give me this time as what I am about to say is very important to ME.

- BR, I have been thinking about our R lately. I believe that both you and I have work to do on ourselves. We can either do it together in a committed relationship OR we can do it apart in a strictly business relationship capacity (these are the options MM).

- I want you to know that I love you very much. Over the past few years and with everything that has gone on between us, the business, the family and in general, I have learned a few things about myself and our relationship.

- First, I have realized that I have some faults that I need to work on. Some of them I believe I have really finally fixed, others are a work in progress. I am totally comfortable with that. I understand myself enough now…that I know I am giving my all to be the best woman I can be.

- I also realize and came to the conclusion that I deserve to have the dreams and wishes that I hoped for in my life. I hope that you can be a part of that and I understand if for your own reasons you do not want or are incapable of giving me what I want. I respect that BF. I really do. I finally realize, that regardless of what happens…I really will be okay.

- So what do I want? I wanted to be in a committed relationship, where I am valued, appreciated, loved, cherished and treated like an equal with the constructs of a relationship. I will explain each of these in detail in second so that you understand where I am coming from and I am making it as clear as possible.

- I want to give my heart to someone that worships and respects me. That treats me like a I deserve to be treated.

- I know I have flaws that I need to work on. I want someone to respect me, to understand my flaws and love me not in spite of them but because of them.

- I know that I am good person, that I have a great heart, that I love and I love deeply. I want the person in my life to reciprocate these feelings back to me.

- I want a friendship, I want a lover, I want a confidant, I want someone who will get me – flaws and all.

- I want someone who can compromise, I want someone who’s actions speak much louder than their words. Who’s actions are consistent. I want someone that is kind to me. I want someone that can balance life, where work is not everything but rather…being with the person you love is also a critical ingredient. I want someone that can listen…and I mean really listen…to what I am saying. I hope that this person is you and I understand if you cannot be that person or NOW is not the right time for you. That is fine.

- As I said, I wanted to clarify what these traits and actions look like to me. I am not saying that you do not understand or do not do these things. That is not what this conversation is about. It really is…about me sharing with you my feelings and wants. I understand that you may or may not agree with how I defined these traits. These though are I define them for myself and how I would hope my partner would define them.

Valued: Valued to me means that my feelings matter. It means that although my partner may not always understand my feelings, that my partner can value them as well as me. Value to me means that my partner is reliable. When my partner say or promise something the he deliver on it. I understand from time to time that chit happens and for example my partner may be late…but those times are far and few between. Value to me, means that my partner would value me as a business partner and will work with me to make me an equal part owner of our company. Value to me means that my partner would value where I live and would want to be with me – regardless of circumstances.

Appreciated: Appreciating me means that my partner appreciate what I do for them and that they would do whatever they can to show that appreciation towards me. That would include committing to spending time with me, to talk, to chat and also doing things that I would like to do.

Loved – God so loved the world that he gave his only son. Now that is love. Love is not about keeping score. It is not about tit for tat. It is about sharing with each other. Both emotionally, physically and financially. Love is understanding. Love is compassion. Love is kind. Love to me also includes security. I want to feel secure with my partner, I want to feel like I can share my heart with partner with no worries. I want to share my inner most secrets with my partner. I want my partner to love me enough to a cheerleader on my side. Cheering me on, inspiring me to be the best me I can be. I want my partner to love me enough that If they were see how I was feeling or if I needed and really wanted something…that they would do whatever it takes to help me achieve my goals. I ask for this knowing in my heart that I would do the same for my partner. Love to me – means NO FEAR. It means that fear does not play a part in my relationship. Love to me means, my partner would not be afraid to open up to me and I would not be afraid to open up to him.

Treated like an Equal : My opinion matters. Period. I want my partner to respect my opinion and to treat me like an equal. If I owned a business with my partner…we would own it equally.

Respect : Respect is much like being treated equal. The biggest thing though is that I respect myself. I would not ask my partner to do something that I myself would not do. I would want my partner to respect my boundaries. My boundaries are mine. My partner does not have to understand them – they must though respect them. Not respecting them is a clear sign of disrespect and it would show me that I am not valued, appreciate or loved.

Compromise: Compromise is two people working together to reach an agreement that both people can feel okay with. It is not one sided, it is not manipulation. Compromise takes effort and it take communication. Compromise only works if both people respect and value each other. Communication is so important. I want my partner to say what he means and means what he says. I want to do the same. I want my partner to be able to give and take with me.

- I hoped this helped you understand the traits and values that I find important to me and important to any relationship that I am in.

- As I mentioned when I started this discussion I believe we can take one of two paths. Here is how these would work for me.

Path one – We do this together as a team.

o We sign up for therapy as a couple. We go in with an open mind. I will also sign up for my own individual therapy. I would suggest that same for you; however, that is your choice.

o The therapist that we will see is a solution based therapist. Cost should not be an issue. Whatever it cost it cost. I believe that our R is worth the cost. We can deduct it equally from the business.

o During therapy, we focus on finalizing the business partnership agreement. I believe that we can have this wrapped up in 30 days.

o While we do this first as a team, I think it is best that we go very slow, specifically around intimacy. Let’s talk about this with the counselor.

o If we agree to do this as a team, we are agreeing that no third parties are involved. In other words, I will not date and I would require the same commitment from you.

Path two – we proceed as business partners and work separately on ourselves.

o We will maintain our relationship strictly on a business level. This means, that any communication we have is related to the business.

o I will not discuss any relationship topics

o I will not engage in intimacy on any level.

o I will not go over to your place and I would respectfully ask you not to come over to mine. I believe it just confuses things and I would like to respect your wishes and have you respect mine.

o We focus on finalizing the business partnership agreement. I believe that we can have this wrapped up in 30 days.

o I will not discuss with you any personal matters – and I will not ask you any non-business related questions.

o I do not believe that “friendship” is best right now, we may consider this in the future but I do not see that for a long time. I think we can maintain a professional working relationship.


MM, I suspect that he will have some comments. Since I cannot be standing right next to you…I have list a few of the things he may say and how I would respond. (you asked me to be specific I am trying to be as specific as humanly possible).

BF’s responses:

BF - I need more time to figure out how to transfer your share of the company over.

MM Response should be: We will do this in 30 days. I believe this is enough time. You, the accountant, everyone has dragged there feet on this. MY financial security is tied to this and I will no longer wait.

BF – I thought things were going well…why are you pressuring me?

MM Response: I understand that this is how YOU feel. I feel differently. I finally have come to realize my value and I no longer care to wait around for you to finally decide to commit. You are committing or you are not. It really is black or white.

BF – There you go pushing again....

MM Response: I understand that you feel I am pushing. I am telling you what I need – if you consider that pushing I am sorry that you feel that way.

BF – Well how am I suppose to feel like I want to commit again with all of these rules?

MM Response: BF, I matter. So….ask yourself…why should I not ask for what I want. Does being in a one sided R appeal to you? Cause it does not appeal to me?

BF – Okay…so you are saying I can date other people?

MM Response: If you elect to do this with me then NO. If you elect to do this separately, then I am not going to tell you what to do. Your actions would say enough to me. If you are wondering what I plan to do….all I can say at this time is that my plan is to focus on continuing to be the best person I can be.

BF – Do we have any other options?

MM Response – NO.

BF – I feel pressured.

MM Response – I can understand how you may feel that way and I am sorry that you do. I have spent the past two years of my life, and I am not getting any younger, walking around you and waiting for you to realize what you have in front of you. I have come to the conclusion that maybe you are unable to give me what I deserve. I understand that. I am choosing to work on myself and let you figure your own stuff out. I guess I finally realized that I cannot change you. I cannot get you to see what is in front of you. I cannot get you to realize that….with you…..and your actions….I feel used.

BF – I never used you…I treated you good. YOU are applying pressure again. I told you…we will figure out the business stuff…I told you not to push me…

MM Response: I am sorry that you feel this way. IMO, we have wasted time trying to split the business. I have waited for a long time. I am not pushing YOU..I am giving you options to choose from – you are choosing not to do this together.


MM, I can try and mind read all day long. I have tried to explain as best as I can what I would do if I were you. Either way you decide to go…please MM, please for YOUR daughters sake….get into therapy asap.


"The difficulties of Life are intended to make us BETTER,not bitter".
"Fear is a prison, where you are the jailer. FREE YOURSELF!"
"Life is usually all about how you handle Plan B." - Jack3Beans
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Moderated by  Cadet, DnJ, job, Michele Weiner-Davis 

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