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So the DB in me tells me that I should weigh this out, continue to love my wife, go on dates, stay positive/upbeat, and to not bring up OM in hope that the changes my W sees in me will cause her to want to leave OM. This was the approach that I took about a year ago (minus some screw ups here and there).


But you see how that turned out, don't you? Do you honestly believe she ever stopped anything with OM? Women can cover their tracks very well. They figure out how to carry the A deeper underground so that H thinks it has ended. The H who really wants to believe her....is usually the one who is deceived the worst. Love can be blind in many ways.

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The other side of me wants to talk to my wife about this. I feel that going down this road will cause whatever progress has been made to go down the drain real quickly and I doubt it will cause wife to want to end friendship with OM. This approach seems to be the quickest way to divorce.


If you mean work things out by sitting down and having a discussion about OM.....and thinking she will agree to end it (again), then it won't work. But let me tell you, you really need to stop referring to this as her FRIENDSHIP with OM. Call it what it is. It is an AFFAIR with OM. Besides, what kind of W would choose a friendship over her M.......if that's all it was! Do you have a "friend" that means more to you than your spouse?

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That said, it bothers me that see is still with OM and I don't know what will give the marriage the best chance in her leaving OM for good. Do I weigh this out and hope she changes like DB teaches or do I need to smell the roses and realize that she probably will never leave OM, even if it just a friendship?


No, that's not how you need to work it. Have you done any of the things I suggested in my previous posts? B/c that was to build up to establishing your boundaries. Stating your boundaries in no uncertain terms is how you deal with the issues of your W and her A with OM. Are you familiar with how that works? Don't confuse it with ultimatums. However, once stated, be ready to carry it out.

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I want my marriage to be saved and I love my wife, but it is hard to see a long term future with trust and intimacy (not just physical but emotional also) when she continues to confide in OM even if it is under the guise of just being friends. I know that OM is a boundary I want to have but is it wise to enforce that boundary now and risk the marriage altogether vs giving her more time, etc.


Can you give me an example of how you would enforces a boundary?

Btw, how long has W gone without being intimate with you?


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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I agree with sandi. You said that she wanted to work on the M. This should include no contact with OM. There is not trust there with him in the picture.

I will tell you that if you confront her about the OM, she will turn it around and make you sound like the unreasonable one for denying her a friendship, etc. Just remember that's all part of her craziness like someone on drugs.

Stand strong.


M-43 W-40
2D - 9 and 5

Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet a new life.

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Can you give me an example of how you would enforces a boundary?


The main boundary is that if OM is in her life, I am out. The only way to enforce that will be to move out of the house and file for divorce.

When my wife told me back in the spring that she wanted to save our marriage, I told her that a boundary for me was OM and that he had to go. I obviously never enforced that.

Ultimately, I had two conditions in my mind that I felt had to be meant if this marriage had any hope.

1.) she had to admit what she did was wrong
2.) she had to remove OM completely out of her life

She never did either of these and I see how I tolerated this rather than sticking to my guns and getting a divorce.

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Btw, how long has W gone without being intimate with you?


It's been at least 2 years. While she asks me to give her a masssage almost every night, there is no cuddling, no kissing, no true affection. I feel like a child starving for food.

Today was rough. My wife got upset this morning because we ran out of groceries/food yesterday. She told me this morning that I was lazy, good for nothing and that she always has to do things if they are to get done. This was really upsetting as I felt that I've really been there for her since she asked to make this week. This week I've had to work late several days but the days I am home I almost always do the cooking, cleaning, etc. She was complaining that she has a lot to do already and was trying to come up with a grocery list. She asked if I can transfer some money to her so she could go buy groceries (I hate not having the same account but she told me that I will only screw her if that ever happened). I told her since she was that busy I can go ahead and get the groceries myself. She had a fit and told me that I am being controlling and that I don't want to support the family since I am not giving her any money for groceries. I would have gladly given her some $$$ but I didn't ever get a chance to clarify, etc. She ran out of the house super upset and hasn't been home since. I know she is going to give me the silent treatment and probably not even allow me to sleep on the same bed as that is what she normally does when she is upset - so what boundary/enforcement can I do here to let her know that is not acceptable?

I am really upset and sort of depress with her she acted today. I felt like blowing up but I held my tongue and didn't really say much to her. All it would take would be for me to find out that she ran to OM today for comfort and I would be out the door so fast. Grrhh. Okay, just venting here.

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just as expected - I am getting the cold and silent treatment from wife. Days like this makes me want to give up on this marriage. On top of that, our daughter is sleeping on the bed with wife while I sleep in another bed room. Wife told daughter that she can sleep there for the not. Very frustrating...

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Originally Posted By: lovenomatterwhat
Quote:
Can you give me an example of how you would enforces a boundary?


The main boundary is that if OM is in her life, I am out. The only way to enforce that will be to move out of the house and file for divorce.

When my wife told me back in the spring that she wanted to save our marriage, I told her that a boundary for me was OM and that he had to go. I obviously never enforced that.

Ultimately, I had two conditions in my mind that I felt had to be meant if this marriage had any hope.

1.) she had to admit what she did was wrong


I admit this strikes me as punitive and unhelpful, but allow me to say why, please.

Since most women justify their affairs (b/c they're rarely "meaningless, or just for sex" which SOME men can probably say)....why would she have to think it's wrong?

What if she felt it was justified but then you became the man you were meant to become and she took you back b/c of the changes you made?



2.) she had to remove OM completely out of her life

This^^ makes sense. I agree,although I'm not sure how fast one can do it or what it means to say "completely" if they work together or some other odd situation exists. But in principle, yes I am with you on this. And transparency too.


She never did either of these and I see how I tolerated this rather than sticking to my guns and getting a divorce.


Would that really be better than trying to save the marriage? How so? What would be better in your life if you were divorced now? And for your kids?

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Btw, how long has W gone without being intimate with you?


It's been at least 2 years. While she asks me to give her a masssage almost every night, there is no cuddling, no kissing, no true affection. I feel like a child starving for food.

To this day you two have not been intimate for 2 years AND she still sees the OM?
I'm confused.


Today was rough. My wife got upset this morning because we ran out of groceries/food yesterday. She told me this morning that I was lazy, good for nothing and that she always has to do things if they are to get done. This was really upsetting as I felt that I've really been there for her since she asked to make this week. This week I've had to work late several days but the days I am home I almost always do the cooking, cleaning, etc. She was complaining that she has a lot to do already and was trying to come up with a grocery list. She asked if I can transfer some money to her so she could go buy groceries (I hate not having the same account but she told me that I will only screw her if that ever happened).
so you WOULD like to have joint accounts but SHE REFUSES to? Why not just point that out?

OR was she asking you for money and you refused, or what?


I told her since she was that busy I can go ahead and get the groceries myself. She had a fit and told me that I am being controlling and that I don't want to support the family since I am not giving her any money for groceries. I would have gladly given her some $$$ but I didn't ever get a chance to clarify, etc. She ran out of the house super upset and hasn't been home since.

Does this^^ happen often? Where do you think she goes?


I know she is going to give me the silent treatment and probably not even allow me to sleep on the same bed as that is what she normally does when she is upset - so what boundary/enforcement can I do here to let her know that is not acceptable?

How do YOU act when she returns? Don't be a dog with your tail between your legs. I'd have a BLAST while she's gone, GAL with the kid or friends and regret that she missed the fun - but make NO apologies for anything other than what you do feel you did wrong...or if you hurt her, etc.

You are responsible for your own happiness -so stop making it her job.

IOW, go have FUN and act as if you think she wanted to take a walk or get some air or whatever - b/c frankly you do NOT know what upset her, or do you? I mean, really? What matters is what YOU want to do and how you go about doing it.



I am really upset and sort of depress with her she acted today. I felt like blowing up but I held my tongue and didn't really say much to her. All it would take would be for me to find out that she ran to OM today for comfort and I would be out the door so fast. Grrhh. Okay, just venting here.

You guys need new TOOLS for better communications and commitment. Have you looked into going to Retrovaille? You really must. (In case you don't know, it's a retreat for marriages in crisis and it has a good success rate. The "Team" couples are there to help guide you and they have been thru a lot of crap themselves, which is inspiring really. We got a lot out of it.)


I cannot imagine a DB couple piecing successfully without going to Retrovaille, unless they got a really great MC or something else that gave them the new tools.

Otherwise you're going to be back here in awhile...what has really changed? And if nothing huge has changed, then it's "insanity" to assume you'll have different results, right?

And how will it change if you both don't get some new ways of coping and handling things?




M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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What if she felt it was justified but then you became the man you were meant to become and she took you back b/c of the changes you made?


We are suppose to be back together and working on making this marriage work. The problem here is that she doesn't want to get rid of OM while telling me she wants to work on the marriage. I was ready to move on and a week before we were set to meet the judge she told me she wanted to make things work between us.

Quote:
To this day you two have not been intimate for 2 years AND she still sees the OM?
I'm confused.


Yep. OM is a co-worker on top of that (she just moved into the same department as him). She tells me that she says nothing wrong with being friends and since he was there when I wasn't, she thinks it would be wrong to end the "friendship" with him.

Quote:
so you WOULD like to have joint accounts but SHE REFUSES to? Why not just point that out?


I wanted to go full force with making this work. I hate having separate bank accounts, not like that she has her own safe with her only having the key, her being secretive, etc. I really wanted these barriers to come down and have us start working as one.

Quote:
Does this^^ happen often? Where do you think she goes?

Since she told me that she wanted to make this work back in March, this rarely happens. But it doesn't take much to make her upset either. Keep in mind that for the last year or so, I have been cleaning the house, taking our daughter out to events, paying for pretty much everything, even doing her homework/quizzes for her (I was up at 2 am twice this week having to read several chapters and take her quizzes online since she wasn't feeling well). I honestly can say that I've really worked on those areas that she use to complain about. Unfortunately, my work at times can get hectic and that is one of her big complaints is me working these 12 hour days. So this week I had to work a lot and while I made sure there was food for the week, unfortunately it was used up by Friday (which I gave her $$$ to go out to eat since I told her that I wasn't going to be able to replenish our food stock until the weekend).

The last time she acted like this was about two months ago.

Quote:
You guys need new TOOLS for better communications and commitment. Have you looked into going to Retrovaille?


We actually went to Retrovaille back in April and left the next day in the morning. She told me that she wasn't getting anything out of it and that it was a waste of time. Ironically, we ended up spending the whole day site seeing (retrovaille was in a different town so we had to drive up) and had a blast. But I agree - I wish we would work together on getting some communication skills. She refuses to go to counseling, thinks relationship books are a joke and tells me all the time that she doesn't have a problem communicating.

Quote:
Otherwise you're going to be back here in awhile...what has really changed?


I've worked hard on my 180s and addressing the issues that my wife had with me. The thing is that it doesn't take much for any little thing to trigger something in my wife. Overall, we've been getting along, going on dates and outwardly appearing to be working on the marriage. There really hasn't been any fighting until today (which was really me just taking it with not really saying much). I am getting tired and exhausted though - I work 10 hour days most days (with a few days longer than that throughout the month), do most of the cooking, cleaning, make time to participate in my daughter's life (girl scouts, helping with homework, dropping daughter off at school, etc). I've been supportive of wife going back to school and have spent more time helping her with her homework than I ever did when I was an MBA student. It is frustrating because I am trying to make this work and while for the most part things have been good - OM is still there, no intimacy, and no real communications when it comes to the rough issues of life.

Quote:
Would that really be better than trying to save the marriage? How so? What would be better in your life if you were divorced now? And for your kids?


I don't know the answer to this. I am trying to save this marriage for what seems like an eternity now and want nothing more for us to really be close/connected to each other. But I am getting tired, fatigue, and overall my quality of life isn't improving. I can't go on like this forever - at some point I have to face the truth that this marriage might never be saved. A lot of damage has been done, especially by me throughout this marriage and my wife seems to remember more the bad times than she does the good. You can probably ignore this last paragraph - today was just a rough day as I got a verbal beating from her today that I felt was completely uncalled for.

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LNMW,

I hear you.

I'll go over your post more carefully, and I will read your whole thread before I delve deeply with advice.

But know this.

Not all marriages CAN be saved and certainly, some should not.

There is also such a thing as cutting one's losses, learning from it, & moving on.

I'd say if you come to the point at which you can honestly say you have bravely, AND honestly dug deep to face parts of you that you'd rather not face, but you did anyhow,

AND then courageously and thoroughly worked on issues deep within you,

to become truly the best LNMW you can become, then there is only one thing left to do.

At that point you turn your marriage, your pain & your anger over to God.

(Or your "higher power" or "universe," or whatever entity that comforts you)

you hold your head up, and go in peace.

I'm simply not ready to say you are there yet.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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Is this the same W you had back in 2008 when you first joined?

Look, she told you she would work on the M, but hasn't had any form of affection with you and hasn't dropped OM, so clearly......she is not into this M!

All I can say is you need to man up and stop accepting this outrageous disrespect from a woman who has done nothing but play you for a fool. The way you take the sh't she pours on you is so unattractive I can't even explain it. sick I don't know why she is staying with you......but I wouldn't say it is out of love, by a long shot. Maybe she just wants something to kick around.

You have dealt with this since March......and a long time before you were going to file. Obviously, you need to move on or change drastically b/c this isn't working.



It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Is this the same W you had back in 2008 when you first joined?

It is. Can't believe its been that long - where does time go.
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All I can say is you need to man up and stop accepting this outrageous disrespect from a woman who has done nothing but play you for a fool.

I moved out today into my sisters house. Honestly, I feel like crap for doing it. This morning I got another birating about the food. Her aunt called me later that morning and told me that I need to seriously get out of the house – that my wife is never going to change as long as I tolerate her treating me with disrespect. Yesterday I was pretty much depressed all day long and now today I feel awful. Maybe I shouldn’t have left the house. I am so down and sad right now – I keep thinking about my daughter and how it must feel to be her right now. I failed. I feel so guilty and blame myself for allowing the marriage to get to this point. I am not holding up well.

My wife texted me about 50 messages – basically saying that I am coward, selfish, and every other mean thing a person can say. I sent her only one text message telling her that I love her and that I want to make this marriage work, but that I will not tolerate being berated, her seeing/calling/txting OM behind my back and not communicating/working with me to solve issues. She responded that I should just sign the divorce papers. I didn’t respond back but she kept calling my phone throughout the day. I sent her one last txt message telling her that I cannot talk to her right now until we are both ready to have an honest, open and willingness to listen conversation about the relationship. I basically got more verbal abuse via txt messages.

I’ve been crying most of the day and just feel ashamed, guilty and like I am abandoning my family. I know this is not logical but this hurts really bad. I can’t see any hope anymore. I’m trying to stay strong but this is hard.

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Not all marriages CAN be saved and certainly, some should not.

There is also such a thing as cutting one's losses, learning from it, & moving on.



It feels like I am at that point. I never wanted this. I would do anything to reverse time, to start over from the beginning and undo all my mistakes. I realized too late how valuable family and marriage is. I know that she had a part but my contribution to this was big. I don't know what to do any more.

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