lost and desperate

[Ss06]

I'm very new here. I have been reading threads like crazy and admire so much of the work people do on themselves and their marriages. I am lost though. I am lost and so severely desperate that I'm drowning. I've read DB and DR as well as The Sex Starved Marriage. I have spoken to Laurie, my DB couch, who is amazing and thoroughly helpful. But here I am lost. Desperate. Scared.

My husband of 12 years wants to leave. He has 10,000 reasons to leave and I understand every single one of them. I have not been a good wife at all. A year ago I made promises to make changes that I never followed through with completely and now he's done. Completely DONE. He has lost all hope. We've talked about changes I've made and intend to make but he doesn't trust me or trust my motivation. He sees divorce as the only answer to him regaining his self respect. I don't want to be the person who made him lose his self respect. I don't want to be the woman who made him hate himself. He says he feels dead inside, that this past year was the end for him and he has no more to give. He can't even wait around to witness the changes I've said I've made because he doesn't have it in him to wait. I understand all of this. I know how horrible I've been and I'm working on significant, meaningful, powerful and permanent changes. I want to like myself, too. He deserves a loving, non-emasculating wife. I want to be that for him. I love him and he says he loves me but I've broken him and wounded him so badly that my promises of change are only that to him - promises. A divorce provides happiness right away, he says, whereas staying even though I'm making changes means he still has to wait around to see the changes and he doesn't have that in him. He says he has to trust his instincts and his instincts say he needs to do what's best for him which is not being in our marriage.

I'm devastated. I've done this. I've caused this. I've brought this pain on myself and I've caused him so much daily pain an apology would never help heal the wounds. I don't say that to gain pity or sympathy, I say it because I need to come to terms with the truth.

He's still living in the house but in a different room. He says it kills him to be here because he's so unhappy. He's mentally checked out completely. We have one 6 (almost 7) year old daughter with SEVERE behavior problems that we can never seem to get under complete control despite massive efforts to the contrary. He seems to think that she'll be "fine" eventually; that he's not worried about her at all. I am petrified for her and will be the primary person dealing with the blowback of whatever this potential divorce could do to her. She has enough to contend with already.

DB talks about backing off, not chasing, pleading, GAL, etc. I tried all that for three weeks and he told me it seemed like I didn't care, was indifferent to everything going on. So, I did a 180. He's a man who needs reassurance (who doesn't, really?) so we started to talk more about us, what I want, what he wants - I find myself trying to convince him to stay. That my perspective and awareness are different - permanently and that he can expect bigger and better things. That I can't guarantee his happiness but that I can guarantee there will be reasons to be happy together in a strong, loving marriage. We've talked multiple times about it and he seems hellbent on leaving. I want us to be a family. I want to be his support and his strength. I want to give him hope. I want to be his home and for him to be my home. I KNOW I can do all these things but he doesn't believe me. I can't force him to believe me but if I have the hope that he does not, how can this work? I can make changes until I'm blue in the face but he doesn't care. I've wounded him that badly. What have I done?

My appointment with Laurie was last Tuesday and we came up with somethings I can do (to shut up and stop criticizing, to stop emasculating, to stop taking over when he parents our daughter, etc) and to look for small signs that he's softening (laughing with me more, maybe talking about the future). It turns out him laughing with me more was just reassuring him that we'd be great divorced because we'd be good friends, and the future he was talking about never included me but him as a divorced bachelor having fun with his daughter on his custody days. Backfire.

Where do I go from here? I feel pressed for time and impatient because once he leaves, that's it. We'll have to tell our daughter and while it breaks every child's heart to hear of their parents getting a divorce my daughter has many issues and this will destroy her. DESTROY her. Her heart will crash into a thousand pieces and I'm not sure I can handle that.

I'm lost and Im desperate and I could use some help and encouragement. I'm trying to follow the rules in DB and DR but my husband is throwing me for a loop. He needs to see my changes and my commitment to further change himself but how? How? How?

How do I instill hope in someone else when I have so much of it? I know that shouldn't even be my goal but it is. Because I was so detached in our marriage before I feel like detaching isn't the answer. How do I do this?

I apologize for the lack of reasonable order in my post. I'm trying to type this while managing my daughter have an epic meltdown. One of many more to come I'm sure.

[Ben2010]

Can you tell us more about what issues he has with you?

What has he said that he dislikes?

What are some of the promised changes that you have already not followed through on?

What problems do you see in yourself right now?

We need some more information in general to see what it is that youre working with here. Try to fill in the blanks here with a little more detailed history and try to be as thorough as possible.

The main thing that I see here so far is that you are wanting to talk about your changes. Dont talk about them. Do them. Let him see you changing and dont bring it up at all. Dont ask if he has noticed. Dont try to point it out. Let him see them on his own. And be consistent in whatever they are. You need to make them a permanent thing and not something that is to win him back. He has no reason to trust that you will make the changes and for them to stick based on what youve already told us.

Thats really all the advice I can offer based on the information that you have given. Keep posting here often and we can dig deeper into some of these issues.

[Ss06]

Oh the issues are big and deep. Where shall I begin? We've had an unhealthy marriage for so long I can't really pinpoint the exact issues except to say that I've treated him like a child forever, emasculated him, distrusted his ability to handle pretty much anything without my criticism or correction, been disrespectful, and emotionally beaten him down to where he has nothing left. Nothing. And to make matters worse, I spoke badly about him (every single thing about him) to other people via text and he found them. I did this while he was going through treatment for thyroid cancer last year. Yes. I did that. He's so hurt by my backstabbing and complaining about him that he can't get those words out of his head. Understandably.

He has said that he dislikes everything about our relationship. That he can't trust me, questions my principles, morals and thinks my promises are empty. He wants to feel appreciated (which I never did), loved (which I never did), emotionally connected with (which I didn't try hard enough to do in a way that would work), like a MAN (which I beat down and to be able to have self respect (which I took from him). These are all things he deserves unquestioningly just simply because he is human. I have truly been a monster. Last year when I made promises I promised to be more loving and to be more affectionate and to have sex more. It lasted a month, maybe. It isn't that my promises were empty but I was looking for HIM to change and meet me half way. HE needed more from me to make changes and I see that now. If I'd read DB last year things would be different but I didn't and they aren't. I know now my path. I know what to do if things get rocky. I know now how he feels when I reject him sexually. I know now how he feels when I emasculate him, even inadvertently. I know now how much I've done to him and how much I've stepped on him. I now have a path, goals, a process, a plan. Last year I had none of those things, I was just flying by the seat of my pants hoping he'd see changes in me and when he didn't, I just said, "Oh well, there's only so much I can do alone in this". Now I know differently.

I know what you mean by not talking about my changes but I'm at a loss with this one because he doesn't want to see my changes. He's happy I'm making changes so the divorce will be easier. That's not what I want. I'm making these changes for ME so I can be a better person to HIM and for our relationship. I know the road will be hard and jagged and super rocky but I am willing to walk it because WE are worth it. If I don't ask if he's noticed he'll go a year or two without seeing them and I'm not exaggerating. My changes don't make him want to stay so how are they going to make him want to stay if I don't bring them up? I agree, I need to make them permanent and lasting - my #1 goal above all else. Nothing matters to me more.

He works ridiculous hours so if he moves out, I will quite literally not see him unless it is to exchange our daughter. A "hi, how'd things go?" or a "she has karate on Friday at 5 pm" isn't going to be enough for him to see ANYTHING let alone permanent changes I'm making. And let's say he does recognize changes, he will just say, "that's great" and move on. He won't relate it back to himself or our relationship.

I'm just so upset about all this and the ache I feel in my heart of regret, sorrow, loss, desperation, fear, anger, frustration. You're right, Ben, he has no reason to trust that I will make the changes and for them to stick. Except that I now have a path. I didn't have that last year. I can now own my role in all of this like an adult as opposed to the petulant child I've been all these years ("I did that because of YOU..."). Why should he trust me other than because I want him to? I don't have the answer to that. I wish I did. Because this time I mean it. What a sorry excuse for a reason. I know that. But I don't have endless months for this because once he's gone, he'll witness NO changes. Once he's gone that's it.

[pilot]

He works ridiculous hours so if he moves out, I will quite literally not see him unless it is to exchange our daughter. A "hi, how'd things go?" or a "she has karate on Friday at 5 pm" isn't going to be enough for him to see ANYTHING let alone permanent changes I'm making. And let's say he does recognize changes, he will just say, "that's great" and move on. He won't relate it back to himself or our relationship.

Not true at all. In my situation, my W and I separated, and I had zero contact with her other than a single daily text from whichever one of us did not have the kids asking to facetime with the kids. We would then see eachother briefly every 10 days or so to swap kids. But I used the time to myself to do some 180s, and when I did have contact with her, I made sure every second counted. 6-7 weeks into this and she is contacting me and being very friendly and affectionate. This from a person who was completely checked out in May and was having an A.

It is important though you do not underestimate the amount of time and patience you will need to save your M, if it can be saved. It took years to break your H, it will take a long time to pick up the pieces and put him back together.

[25yearsmlc]

A running theme in your description, though it's still really vague (a few specifics would help a lot, instead of just saying you were a "monster"), is one of negativity.

And you are doing it now to yourself with a hopelessness throughout. We cannot help you if all you do is argue about why our suggestions won't work. Okay so open your mind up to the possibility that we MIGHT be able to help you IF you allow yourself to be helped. That will mean you change the way you think and behave. So that means you don't keep coming up with reasons for NOT changing or following our advice.

Give this/us a chance.

Oh the issues are big and deep. Where shall I begin? We've had an unhealthy marriage for so long I can't really pinpoint the exact issues except to say that I've treated him like a child forever, emasculated him, distrusted his ability to handle pretty much anything without my criticism or correction, been disrespectful, and emotionally beaten him down to where he has nothing left. Nothing. And to make matters worse, I spoke badly about him (every single thing about him) to other people via text and he found them. I did this while he was going through treatment for thyroid cancer last year. Yes. I did that. He's so hurt by my backstabbing and complaining about him that he can't get those words out of his head. Understandably.

Sounds pretty bad. So, why do you think you did all this? And what were thinking at the time, or did you not ever examine your behaviors?
What was your childhood and parents marriage like?


He has said that he dislikes everything about our relationship.

Sounds as if you do too...


That he can't trust me, questions my principles, morals and thinks my promises are empty. He wants to feel appreciated (which I never did), loved (which I never did), emotionally connected with (which I didn't try hard enough to do in a way that would work), like a MAN (which I beat down and to be able to have self respect (which I took from him). These are all things he deserves unquestioningly just simply because he is human. I have truly been a monster.

If you are even half right, then you have a long road ahead of you and you really MUST NOT trust only your views on this. When your coach or we suggest something, try NOT to come up with a reason for why it won't work in "your case" b/c as unique as we all are, there ARE patterns in these situations. You need to accept that we might offer you something.

Stop wallowing in hopelessness. You have a child who is going to be watching you and this is NOT a trait you want to pass onto her.

Last year when I made promises I promised to be more loving and to be more affectionate and to have sex more. It lasted a month, maybe. It isn't that my promises were empty but I was looking for HIM to change and meet me half way. HE needed more from me to make changes and I see that now.

Usually the LBSer comes here thinking they have to take the first step.

I tell them this: "Yes, And you have to take the 2nd step, and the third, and the next 3054 steps - b/c THEY ARE NOT HERE TRYING TO SAVE THE MARRIAGE; You are..."

and that is the truth.


If I'd read DB last year things would be different but I didn't and they aren't. I know now my path. I know what to do if things get rocky.

Such as? Can you list 2-3 things you would DO/SAY differently if you had the chance?



I know now how he feels when I reject him sexually. I know now how he feels when I emasculate him, even inadvertently. I know now how much I've done to him and how much I've stepped on him. I now have a path, goals, a process, a plan.

Sounds great. So why not begin? Why so hopeless?

Last year I had none of those things, I was just flying by the seat of my pants hoping he'd see changes in me and when he didn't, I just said, "Oh well, there's only so much I can do alone in this". Now I know differently.

You must drop the scorecard (whereby you measured what HE had done to keep things 'even' with you.) You cannot pick that scorecard back up again either. Ever.

The problem with scorecards is that they "keep a record of wrongs", which is detrimental to happy marriages. AND the other thing is that our spouses have their own scorecards and on theirs, we are NOT ahead.

Our vows often say "from this day forward" and I think those are genius words! That is how you have to take this, from this day forward. Drop the past and be here now. Drop the list of grievances that are used to berate and negate.

Don't borrow trouble from tomorrow either. That's stinking thinking and it's negative and wasteful and downright harmful...and miserable to be around.


I know what you mean by not talking about my changes but I'm at a loss with this one because he doesn't want to see my changes. He's happy I'm making changes so the divorce will be easier.

NOT making the changes will make the divorce easier, on him, b/c it'll serve as a reminder to him of why he's leaving you. Talking about the changes never helps and you will have to trust us on that.

Talk is cheap AND it tends to mean that your "changes" are merely tactics to get him back; not sincere genuine authentic changes you make for YOU so you can become the woman you were meant to become.

These are changes anyone would make if they had a come to Jesus moment like you have had. No need to tell him. Telling him undermines the very claims you are making about the changes being for you.


That's not what I want. I'm making these changes for ME so I can be a better person to HIM and for our relationship.

Then make them. I don't understand what you mean by "not what I want". You don't want the divorce to be easy on him?

Then BE the changed woman he's wanted for so long. Let him SEE & BELIEVE that you have finally become the woman he wanted/needed. That will make anyone second guess their choice to leave, especially when there are kids.

TALKING about it will not help you - and it may well hurt your cause.

I know the road will be hard and jagged and super rocky but I am willing to walk it because WE are worth it. If I don't ask if he's noticed he'll go a year or two without seeing them and I'm not exaggerating.

Stop the negative projections. IF you DO ask him if he noticed, what then? You think he will THEN notice what he had not before?

You think he'll slap his forehead and say "You are right! FINALLY I can come home!"??

I think it's much MUCH more likely he'll say "Oh, she's doing her tactical superficial GAME again...I'm not buying it again".

If you really did the DB work we do here, it will show and saying nothing about it - would help you convince him FAR MORE than talking ever will.

You already talked about your changes before, so why repeat failed behaviors?

My changes don't make him want to stay so how are they going to make him want to stay if I don't bring them up?

OMG it's the opposite! If the changes don't make him want to stay ---then pointing them out will make him want to run.

And How would you know if the changes won't "make him stay"? I Know one thing, NOTHING you do will MAKE him do/feel anything. Those are his choices. All you can do is change YOU. Stop trying to control who/what you cannot control, like HIM or his reactions. Let go of that this minute. It's an illusion anyhow, but it's a dangerous illusion.

Okay so You think a month of "change" is enough? It's not. You need a month of contrasting new behaviors, to undermine every year of past negatives.

So that means if you have always been a "monster" in the marriage the whole 12 years, it will take a YEAR of new changes to get him to buy into the changes being real or lasting.

You have NOT done that, so how can you so certainly negatively predict how you'll fail (unless you get to do this your way)? Your way is the OPPOSITE of what we are telling you -but You seem to think your failed way is mandatory. I just think it's another same old thing, and I don't get that. Stop resisting a program you have not tried b/c you have NOT Done real DB work yet. Not that I know of.


I agree, I need to make them permanent and lasting - my #1 goal above all else. Nothing matters to me more.

He works ridiculous hours so if he moves out, I will quite literally not see him unless it is to exchange our daughter. A "hi, how'd things go?" or a "she has karate on Friday at 5 pm" isn't going to be enough for him to see ANYTHING let alone permanent changes I'm making.

NOT TRUE. We have done it so WE know. Short interchanges can be lengthened and will be, IN TIME< if he learns he can relax around you and not flee. If you don't pressure him with more arguments about how you have changed and he can stay now and blah blah blah then maybe he'll take a breath and feel safe enough to have coffee with you. But not if you're going to harangue him.

So how to be noticed for a change in 3 minutes? You can look great and be happy which will shock him enough as it is. You can give him 1-2 authentic compliments when you see him, which will be noticed. You can text him a thank you and send him a cute picture of your d or something positive she said or did, when he's not around. THOse things alone will be noticed. Plus your d will speak about the fun things you have been doing and how nice you are and playful and artsy, etc.

You can thank him for awakening in you the real you. The "Unafraid to be wrong" you, the optimistic you, the spiritual you, the beautiful healthier you. And you can tell him the truth -- which is that you are grateful he woke you up, that he has done you a favor by getting you to shake off these negative chains you have been wearing too long. You can be happy and loving and lovable and when those things are happening, they will radiate and yes they will be seen.

Pointing them out is so unnecessary as to almost negate them. Certainly in this scenario pointing the changes out is so self serving that is exactly how they'll look and since the changes are for YOU and NOT to get him back, telling him makes zero sense. Do you get that?



And let's say he does recognize changes, he will just say, "that's great" and move on. He won't relate it back to himself or our relationship.

Man, you need to change the negative tape in your brain's cassette recorder. Too much mind reading and ALL negative.

You have it set up so no matter what you do, he'll never come home. So give up.

Oh you don't want to give up? Then don't come up with reasons NOT to try this program, before you even begin. I thought you had a plan. Is it to keep saying "no this won't work for ME b/c MY situation is the only one in the world like this"...?? That mindset does not help you.

If he sees changes in the mother of his only child, at some point he's going to wonder if "NOW" things could work out. That is at least a possibility and it's the only way I can imagine it happening.



I'm just so upset about all this and the ache I feel in my heart of regret, sorrow, loss, desperation, fear, anger, frustration. You're right, Ben, he has no reason to trust that I will make the changes and for them to stick. Except that I now have a path. I didn't have that last year.


You keep saying "now I have a path" but it sounds as if your path is to TELL HIM IN WORDS - and we are telling you that won't work.

What is this "new path" and are you on it now?


I can now own my role in all of this like an adult as opposed to the petulant child I've been all these years ("I did that because of YOU..."). Why should he trust me other than because I want him to? I don't have the answer to that. I wish I did.


Because this time I mean it. What a sorry excuse for a reason. I know that. But I don't have endless months for this because once he's gone, he'll witness NO changes. Once he's gone that's it.

Obviously the sooner you make the changes the better. But even after you are apart, you'll surely continue to grow. Do not revert to the old you, and tell yourself you may as well "b/c after all he didn't come home." Besides, I have 2 family members who divorced and remarried their former spouses so yes, it happens.

You will never be glad to have been a monster. Change now.

"Consistent change + sufficient time = change he can believe in."

^^^ That is the 'math' of it.

You will never regret handling yourself with dignity and strength and honor. You need to start that. Don't lose your temper at all. Not in front of him.

If you know the negatives and images he has of you which justify his leaving, then you also know how to contrast and contradict and undermine those images.


To show him that his data about you is no longer valid.

Contrast the images he has of you that are bad, with new positives. If you used to dress too casually, then begin to Dress up. You berated him, now you will sincerely compliment him, do NOT berate him or anyone for anything that isn't life threatening. Life is too short.

* Applaud loudly for the 1% of positives he does.

* Lose the scorecard and never bring up past grievances. Let them go.

* Live FROM this day forward" which is what you'd have to do, to stay married.

* No past grievances get thrown out in a fight or piled on, or hung over our spouse's head.

* Let the inner feeling of contentment, liking ourselves, trusting that our future is bright no matter what others do, radiate from within.

No long term marriage stays together and happy without a CHUNK of forgiveness from at least one party. Learn to forgive and practice it on yourself.

As for your d, stop assuming/projecting the worst. That can be a self fulfilling prophecy.

And if the marriage was as terrible as you say it was, then it's not something she needs in her life either.

She should not learn to treat a man like crap and have no respect for him, to backstab him even while he's ill, to emasculate him while he faces cancer.

That's what you say you did/do, so how can you argue that her NOT seeing that will "destroy" her? What she's dealing with now could destroy her too. Sounds as if she has a terrible model for marriage and perhaps it hurts her interactions socially if this is what she has witnessed all her life.

Your h may find a kind loving woman for himself, and your d seeing him in a healthy relationship is probably what he's thinking/hoping would be good for her and for him.

Your goal is to show him he can have that healthy r with YOU, so start treating him with respect and admiration and tenderness

-- and yes you can do that without overly pursuing him.

What do you think?

[25yearsmlc]

Were YOU ever happy in the marriage? Was he? IF so, What was your marriage like when you were happy?

Why do you believe you changed, or were you always this way? What would your h SAY if HE were here talking to us, and can you give us some specific examples?

Like what were you mad about when he had cancer, and what reaction did you get from the people you "badmouthed" him to?

Did any of them tell you it was inappropriate, or was it "funny" to you or them?

I'm trying to wrap my brain around this situation. Do you want to be married to him? If so, why?

Why did you sabotage the marriage, assuming you love him?

[Ss06]

Holy Moly, 25! You have given me so many nuggets and so many 2x4s that I've had to write them down so I can refer back to them FOREVER!

I should state that this specific post was written at a particularly negative point. I am sure there will be many more but I was definitely fighting against the stream thinking my situation was unique and couldn't be solved the usual way. I was fighting DB'n out of fear that it wouldn't work before I'd even given it a chance, before I'd done the work. Something rather indicative of how i approached my marriage, I think. Fight the discomfort because it's uncomfortable. Didn't work in the marriage, won't work in repairing the marriage, if that's possible so I'm dropping that technique.

A lot happened since my last post in this thread, mostly that I'm doing the LRT and GAL, looking DEEP within myself for the start of what will be a very long reparative journey of ME for ME. I must say, 25, you have really asked some hard and important questions.

Was I happy in the marriage? No, not for a lot of it. We always had good times but I hated that nothing was ever resolved despite our constant arguing or talking about things. I would state a need and he'd tell me how I shouldn't want or need that. He'd state a need and I would tell him how impossible he is for wanting that. Same issues all the time which turned into both of us becoming completely disconnected and emotionally unattached. My frustration turned to resentment which turned to anger which turned to disrespect and obstinance which caused me to bash him to others thinking I was "venting". If I'm being honest with myself, I think I wanted someone to say to me, "he's such an a$$, you deserve so much better" and in some cases, I heard that but in the end, I'm the A$$ because I sat around waiting for changes and kept score every single day.

He was (and always will be) MIA a lot because of his career. Sometimes I felt like I played second fiddle to his career and other times I actually did play second fiddle. He works in the film industry and even when he wasn't working on a film at the moment he was working 7 days a week, 15-18 hour days. When he IS on a film he works 7 days a week and 20 hour days (not exaggerating at all here) for the duration of his allotted time before the deadline (6 weeks, 3 months, 9 months, a few were a year even). I remember sobbing out of happiness because he said he'd take HALF a Saturday off to hang out with me. HALF. I felt lonely and abandoned and neglected but I had a life. I hung out with friends, had a solid yoga practice, worked long hours myself, even bought opera tickets with a girlfriend one year. Once we had our daughter things changed. He felt a lot of pressure to provide and he's never been a slacker (one of the many things I love about him). Our daughter was a handful since birth and still does not sleep through the night. He started to "escape" to work. He'd still be at work at 2 am while I was STILL trying to get our baby to sleep. I suffered from postpartum depression and he was MIA. I felt lost and alone. In a typical year he'll take 2-3 movies. A busy year is 4 movies. The year my daughter was born he took 7 movies. SEVEN. I am sure I was no fun to be around and our daughter was always crying and upset so I'm not sure I completely blame him for disappearing but I needed support desperately. That's when I started to emotionally withdraw. I saw it as self preservation but I was jealous of him having a life outside of our woefully unhappy daughter. I felt like he was saying, "you handle depressed you and our cranky daughter, I'll make money, see ya". I remember asking him to be more present, more available so we could be a family. He started to come home at our daughter's bedtime to read her a story then would hand her back to me, get back in the car and go back to work. That's it, he honestly thought that was a stellar contribution to the family, afterall, he was making the money. I was depressed (though medicated), exhausted, unequipped to handle motherhood alone and frustrated by his absence. It was around this time that I stopped caring about his feelings, I think. I didn't care if he was tired, I hadn't had more than 4 hours consecutive sleep in 5+ years. I didn't care that he was anxious about his career, I was dragging our daughter to behavior specialists, signing up for occupational therapy, social group, testing, etc. I didn't care if he didn't like how I told him to do something. I felt like I deserved more so I was going to teach him that by treating him like crap because I felt like he was treating me like crap. Super mature, right? And so the score keeping began with a vengeance. I used my resentment (because in my eyes my score was always higher, of course) to let him know he was just escaping and not helping me which turned into belittling, condescension, emasculation and sh!t talking.

Why did I sabotage the marriage? I think because I thought it would eventually motivate change in HIM. yeah, I realize how sick that is now. I need to do more soul searching in this area because i know there is more to it, something deeper to it but I need to think about it some more. Such a great question.

I can't find it now but at some point I think you asked about my childhood and my parents marriage. Good God, both subjects are ripe with reasons why I am where I am. I am the middle child of three, only girl. My parents are brilliant chemists both with advanced degrees but my mother was horribly abusive and my father let it happen. At 16 I was removed from the home and placed in foster care. My mother charged with abuse and my father charged with neglect, they packed up and left the state leaving me behind. I worked hard, got a full athletic scholarship to a Div 1 school and that was that. I met H while in school. I was so full of anger at the world when we met. We were just kids really. He was 18 I was 19.

My parents marriage was always rocky and I mean ROCKY. Always arguing, my father worked in different states but we were always moving which my mom resented. They didn't seem to like each other much and rarely got along. They are still married (44 years). They are now Retrovialle coaches believe it or not. They were close to divorce countless times but somehow have made it work.

I'm going to submit this and come back to other questions...

[25yearsmlc]

Holy Moly, 25! You have given me so many nuggets and so many 2x4s that I've had to write them down so I can refer back to them FOREVER!

I should state that this specific post was written at a particularly negative point. I am sure there will be many more but I was definitely fighting against the stream thinking my situation was unique and couldn't be solved the usual way. I was fighting DB'n out of fear that it wouldn't work before I'd even given it a chance, before I'd done the work.

Agreed. Glad you see this^^.


Something rather indicative of how i approached my marriage, I think. Fight the discomfort because it's uncomfortable. Didn't work in the marriage, won't work in repairing the marriage, if that's possible so I'm dropping that technique.

Drop it - and don't pick it up again. You will be tempted to. Don't.

A lot happened since my last post in this thread, mostly that I'm doing the LRT and GAL, looking DEEP within myself for the start of what will be a very long reparative journey of ME for ME. I must say, 25, you have really asked some hard and important questions.

Was I happy in the marriage? No, not for a lot of it. We always had good times but I hated that nothing was ever resolved despite our constant arguing or talking about things.

Conflict resolution is more important than the number of conflicts. Life throws more curve balls at some couples than others. But you need those resolution skills.

your parents have learned them and God Bless them! We attended Retrovaille and found it very useful. An individual personal growth workshop we attended years ago, which is in alignment with Retrovaille and DBing and is profoundly life changing, is called "Essential Experience" (aka "EE") and is based in Philadelphia. If you want accelerated therapy, (like 2 years of GOOD therapy in one long weekend), you ought to look into it.

It's "efficient' b/c in weekly T sessions, with a GOOD therapist (never mind the kind who just listen and hope you figure out your issues AND glean tools from the universe), even then you may make a break thru but then have to pick up the kids or go back to work.

It can be fragmented. That's why weekend retreats or workshops work better for ME and MY h. Not everyone is that way, but we are. Please consider EE b/c a lot of your issues are not directly related to the marriage, per se.

Plus if you go by yourself, you won't be as inhibited as you would be with your h, and if he sees the changes in you that I would expect, he may well attend himself. I know my h did, based on what he SAW in me, not on what I said. Although I did tell him "that was an amazing experience" and he could see that I was visibly happier and calmer than I had EVER been in my life.

(I had issues with my MIL, which I did not know til I was at EE. That's another reason It was good he did not go with me).

Make sense?



I would state a need and he'd tell me how I shouldn't want or need that. He'd state a need and I would tell him how impossible he is for wanting that. Same issues all the time which turned into both of us becoming completely disconnected and emotionally unattached.

My frustration turned to resentment which turned to anger which turned to disrespect and obstinance which caused me to bash him to others thinking I was "venting". If I'm being honest with myself, I think I wanted someone to say to me, "he's such an a$$, you deserve so much better" and in some cases, I heard that but in the end, I'm the A$$ because I sat around waiting for changes and kept score every single day.

We had 2 MC's tell my h he was being "Selfish" and not acting like a "family man". While that SEEMS vindicating for me, it also left me powerless b/c if I'm perfect already and he's the jerk, what do I do with THAT?

Much better to realize I too have my issues and I too have some work I CAN DO so I'm not powerless. That's why the best news you can get from a good MC, is that YOU have some work to do.

He was (and always will be) MIA a lot because of his career. Sometimes I felt like I played second fiddle to his career and other times I actually did play second fiddle.

Me too. My h is an MD. So, what are you going to do about that? I can't compete with a heart surgery patient, so I won't. I accept that my h does work which really does take him away. That's that. I'm NOT divorcing him for it. So that means I won't complain about it either.

For years I "welcomed" him home with my arms crossed literally and figuratively b/c he was "neglecting" me/family. Sometimes he took work/cases on he did NOT need to. So maybe he was selfish some times.

But was my approach helping me? NO. Why didn't I give him a real welcome home so he'd MISS being here? That would have been smarter. But I wanted to be "right" more than I wanted to be happy and I did not want to "reward" him for his transgressions....brilliant, eh? Yeah not so much...

Lesson learned and hopefully, PASSED ON, yes?



He works in the film industry and even when he wasn't working on a film at the moment he was working 7 days a week, 15-18 hour days. When he IS on a film he works 7 days a week and 20 hour days (not exaggerating at all here) for the duration of his allotted time before the deadline (6 weeks, 3 months, 9 months, a few were a year even). I remember sobbing out of happiness because he said he'd take HALF a Saturday off to hang out with me. HALF.

Ever think that 1) it really was a gift to you, however small?

2) that if you gave him a home/daughter/wife who REALLY ENJOYED his presence, he might want to be there more?

I felt lonely and abandoned and neglected but I had a life. I hung out with friends, had a solid yoga practice, worked long hours myself, even bought opera tickets with a girlfriend one year.

You GAL< and that helps. Do it again. Seriously.

Once we had our daughter things changed. He felt a lot of pressure to provide and he's never been a slacker (one of the many things I love about him). Our daughter was a handful since birth and still does not sleep through the night. He started to "escape" to work.

Not so incomprehensible, is it? I know you needed more but so did he. And anyhow this is where you are NOW so "from this day forward" is how you must approach this, yes?

He'd still be at work at 2 am while I was STILL trying to get our baby to sleep. I suffered from postpartum depression and he was MIA. I felt lost and alone. In a typical year he'll take 2-3 movies. A busy year is 4 movies. The year my daughter was born he took 7 movies. SEVEN. I am sure I was no fun to be around and our daughter was always crying and upset so I'm not sure I completely blame him for disappearing but I needed support desperately. That's when I started to emotionally withdraw. I saw it as self preservation but I was jealous of him having a life outside of our woefully unhappy daughter. I felt like he was saying, "you handle depressed you and our cranky daughter, I'll make money, see ya".

I get this^^. No need to rehash so much and I know you are simply answering my questions. I get that.

I'm just telling you NOW that we don't have to keep doing that - so you can get unstuck, and not keep going in circles of anger/resentment, okay?


I remember asking him to be more present, more available so we could be a family. He started to come home at our daughter's bedtime to read her a story then would hand her back to me, get back in the car and go back to work.

Like I said, "applaud loudly for the 1%" of positives. It's HARD to do, but it helps. I know it.

That's it, he honestly thought that was a stellar contribution to the family, afterall, he was making the money. I was depressed (though medicated), exhausted, unequipped to handle motherhood alone and frustrated by his absence. It was around this time that I stopped caring about his feelings, I think.

or earlier but like I said, no need to keep rehashing b/c it usually (not always but mostly) keeps us in circles and cycles of anger. It does NOT help to vent unless you notice quickly that you feel better, not worse.

I didn't care if he was tired, I hadn't had more than 4 hours consecutive sleep in 5+ years. I didn't care that he was anxious about his career, I was dragging our daughter to behavior specialists, signing up for occupational therapy, social group, testing, etc. I didn't care if he didn't like how I told him to do something.

Your anger was your priority and now it's not. So, moving on....OH but I hope you do get your d some help. You don't need your h for that, it helps but he's not mandatory to you getting HER some sleep help.


I felt like I deserved more so I was going to teach him that by treating him like crap because I felt like he was treating me like crap. Super mature, right? And so the score keeping began with a vengeance. I used my resentment (because in my eyes my score was always higher, of course) to let him know he was just escaping and not helping me which turned into belittling, condescension, emasculation and sh!t talking.

Yep I get it. Many of us put showing our anger ahead of helping our m.

.

Why did I sabotage the marriage? I think because I thought it would eventually motivate change in HIM. yeah, I realize how sick that is now.


It's wacky thinking but very common. Good insights here.


I need to do more soul searching in this area because i know there is more to it, something deeper to it but I need to think about it some more. Such a great question.

I can't find it now but at some point I think you asked about my childhood and my parents marriage. Good God, both subjects are ripe with reasons why I am where I am. I am the middle child of three, only girl. My parents are brilliant chemists both with advanced degrees but my mother was horribly abusive and my father let it happen. At 16 I was removed from the home and placed in foster care. My mother charged with abuse and my father charged with neglect, they packed up and left the state leaving me behind. I worked hard, got a full athletic scholarship to a Div 1 school and that was that. I met H while in school. I was so full of anger at the world when we met. We were just kids really. He was 18 I was 19.

My parents marriage was always rocky and I mean ROCKY. Always arguing, my father worked in different states but we were always moving which my mom resented. They didn't seem to like each other much and rarely got along. They are still married (44 years). They are now Retrovialle coaches believe it or not. They were close to divorce countless times but somehow have made it work.

I'm going to submit this and come back to other questions...

Talk to your parents!! What a resource you have! And do check out EE, seriously. I've been to many workshops (Landmark, EST, among otehrws including some here in LA where I also live.)

By far EE is the most profound and intellectual and deep and life changing. I have heard that Lifespring is also good but I have no direct experience with them.

I think YOU would get a lot out of EE and it's the best way to make sure you follow thru in the changes you want to make.

But I'll stop now so you don't think I'm selling you something (I'm not!, I promise) besides a lot of DBers have gone to EE and they can tell you how it helped them.

Good luck and keep at this.

[Ss06]

Just stating some progress on my part because this is hard... H is home from work today looking at places to move into. when he told me he was meeting with the real estate agent I didn't cringe or feel that stabbing pain in my chest wanting to do everything in my power to stop him. I just said, "Ok, hope it goes well". It feels like such a mixed signal. Ugh!

ALSO, he said in passing this morning that he would pick up D from camp and take her to karate. I haven't reminded him or nagged him about her not having her stuff (her karate belt is in my car) and I noticed her karate stuff is still in a bag by the front door. This is very BIG for me. To let it go and trust that he can do these things without my criticism or nagging. AND, I haven't checked the GPS app on my phone to see if he's on his way to pick up D or if he forgot. See? Baby steps. He said he had it and I'm letting him have it. This is no small feat for me so I'm putting out my fist for some bumps! Come on! Give a girl an accolade!!!

[claire7]

That's awesome!! Congrats!!

I remember how it felt (strange, but also....liberating?) when I stopped worrying so much about how much TV my D was watching with my H, or what she was eating, or whether he had packed her bag the way I would. They were not life or death things. It felt scary, but also good to let go.