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A Message from Michele
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Ok here we go part two #2458695
06/09/14 11:40 AM
06/09/14 11:40 AM
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Cw_wc Offline OP
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Re: Ok here we go part two [Re: Cw_wc] #2458698
06/09/14 11:55 AM
06/09/14 11:55 AM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 13,007
NY
Cadet Online

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Welcome to your new thread CW

Something that was told to me is that new threads bring change.

I think if you re-read your old thread you will see that the seeds of change could have been planted.

These seeds will need to be watered and tended to in order for them to grow.

That part will be up to you.

I hope you are up for the challenge.


Me-65, D32,S31
Re: Ok here we go part two [Re: Cadet] #2458705
06/09/14 12:17 PM
06/09/14 12:17 PM
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Cw_wc Offline OP
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Thank you cadet.
I have a very long journey ahead. I gave had a dark and horrible few days. I won't elaborate because it is something that only a few close friends will understand. I have read my w words again words she has written over 19 months. I know I was told to believe only half of what I read but I do know parts of my W and her words are her heart. She has moved on. She is happy and it is clear she has little respect or trust or faith in me. It hurts but it is something I must own. I don't know why I came to this forum. It is to save a marriage. I think I knew mine was over. But the truths and support I received over the last few very dark days have meant a lot. I will continue my work with my C. I will read the suggested readings because I think they will help me in the future but I won't continue to post. This place is for people with hope at saving a marriage and it is a good one. You've all gone through some much and to that end I know I'm not alone. I honestly thought I had given everything of myself to W. But I failed and gave her not much at all. I think. I'm going to take time to grow with myself and find my own happiness.

Thanks all.

Last edited by Cw_wc; 06/09/14 12:19 PM.
Re: Ok here we go part two [Re: Cw_wc] #2458708
06/09/14 12:34 PM
06/09/14 12:34 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 13,007
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Cadet Online

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CW I will respect your wishes.

Let me just say that your marriage was over a long time ago.
So was mine and everyone else's that post here.

Whether you can build a new marriage or not is really up to you.

I can tell you that first you must save yourself.
Cause you are no good to anyone else if you don't.

Whether you legally stay married or not, you will always be connected to your wife as
she is the mother of your children and when you look at them
you will see 50% of your wife and 50% of YOU.

So it behooves you to do the work if for no one else, your children, but
really for YOU!

Stop searching for happiness and look at the person responsible for your happiness.

YOU!


Me-65, D32,S31
Re: Ok here we go part two [Re: Cw_wc] #2458709
06/09/14 12:35 PM
06/09/14 12:35 PM
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Mach1 Offline
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I'm thinking that you should stick around a bit and post...

Yes, this forum is about saving a Marriage, yet the best way of doing that is by saving yourself FIRST....

Your end goal not need to be the marriage for now, and you are getting some valuable feedback for yourself, and that is very important.

I'm not sure that I understood your initial reply to me...

Elaborate a bit ???

Re: Ok here we go part two [Re: Mach1] #2458711
06/09/14 12:52 PM
06/09/14 12:52 PM
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Mach1 Offline
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One of the things that you have said here, is that you do not believe that Love is a Choice...

And being a perspective kind of guy, I want you to think about something that opened my eyes a bit....

Do you love your children ??

I mean really LOVE them, with all of your being ??

Is it because of what they do for you ??

Like any other parent, I would say NO...

If my connection to them, hinged on what they did for me ???

Then I would be in trouble...

It is what we give, instead of what we take that fosters our love for another human.

And yes, we CHOOSE to give ourselves to them....

From your posts, I would say that what you EXPECTED, was the fairy tale life with her. You expected your love to foster itself, without having to put in the work. That the elevation of hormones, would last forever, and your distinction between "new" love, and "lasting" love became jaded. New love takes care of itself, and requires very little work.

Lasting love takes WORK, every day, knowing, and fostering those feelings. Building the emotional connection that keeps your partner BESIDE you, not in front, nor behind you.

Yes, you did things for her, we all did things for our spouses, yet we all wanted more. Like I said earlier, unspoken, unmet expectations result in anger, and resentment.

You may very well have been doing those things. What you failed to see, was that you were trying to fulfill her emotional needs, the way that YOU needed them, not the way that SHE needed them to be fed....

Your fix, for her needs....

It also seems that somewhere along the way, you have mistaken love, for obligation....

How would you describe the difference between Love and Obligation ????

Re: Ok here we go part two [Re: Mach1] #2458714
06/09/14 01:04 PM
06/09/14 01:04 PM
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Cw_wc Offline OP
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Mach

Good analogy about the kids. You're right. My love for them is unconditional. I'm stuck on the word "choice". One gift W gave me is the power and beauty of words. She eats them like a rich chocolatey dessert. I never put much into them until the past few years. The word choice hangs there for me. I loved my children from the very first moment I held them. It wasn't a choice. It was an overwhelming desire. I never wanted kids. They weren't in my DNA make up. But I would give my life for mine.

I fed my W's love in a way I knew how. She did the same. Not an excuse( well not anymore). Just a fact. I'm in sales so I talk a lot but in truth I don't say much. ( kinda a key for sales). I carried that back to the M. And I kept every single emotion carefully packed inside a box. I was an "actions speak louder then words" kinda guy and thought May actions were screaming " I Love You".

Last edited by Cw_wc; 06/09/14 01:10 PM.
Re: Ok here we go part two [Re: Cw_wc] #2458722
06/09/14 01:22 PM
06/09/14 01:22 PM
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Mach1 Offline
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So how much, did your love, come across as "the pitch" from your work in sales ???

What were you 'selling' her ????

Re: Ok here we go part two [Re: Mach1] #2458727
06/09/14 01:41 PM
06/09/14 01:41 PM
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Cw_wc Offline OP
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Actually Mach. It's not that part of sales I brought home.

In the past months,as W and I discussed our M she took responsibility for only one thing. ( the rest she validated or justified). She apologized that when ever we enter a discussion on any topic and she disagreed she would fight until I either gave up and caved of as a last resort verbally withdraw any support for my choice. In effect leaving me alone in the responsibility.
In sales when you know your not going to be heard by the person across the table you pack you bag and walk. You can only go so far.
At home, and this was years into our marriage, I started to pack my mental bag. I knew there would de no give and take. There never was. I couldn't communicate with her verbally. Understand we had thousands of wonderful conversations but when it came to a topic that needed a decision I knew very well where I stood. So I stopped " sitting across the table". But I never stopped showing my love through action. And I never ever withdrew my support of her decisions. Half her choices failed. I didn't say " see wrong!!" I helped pick up the pieces and said no problem. It wasn't until much later that I started to resent having to pick up the pieces( this I own as all mine. And will never let it happen again not with her of my next R)
But I didn't bring sales tactics to the marriage. Lol. No. That wasn't my style!

Last edited by Cw_wc; 06/09/14 01:41 PM.
Re: Ok here we go part two [Re: Cw_wc] #2458746
06/09/14 02:46 PM
06/09/14 02:46 PM
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Damn dude….I came to check back and you are up to 12 pages. Holy Chit.

Quote:
I'm the one leaving because I couldn't stay.

Why couldn’t you stay?

Quote:
I don't know anymore.

More confusion from you – yet you are moving forward with a D. Why? Is it because…

Quote:
I'm hollow. I just got to the end of my rope and lost faith.

I get that you feel hollow. Did you expect your W to always “fill” you up? Was your expectation of HER maybe a bit too much for HER?

Faith buddy…by the way is not based on anything that you see or hear – it is based on an internal belief that is not dependant on anything else or anyone else except YOU.


Quote:
She thought I had affairs, I didn't.

Did you give her reasons to believe that you were having an affair? If you did, can you see why she may have been cold and distant. Affairs leave huge scars man…scars that take a LONG time to HEAL.

Quote:
She said I was cold and distant, maybe, but truthfully I think that was the result of years of being pushed away.

Based on some of your earlier posts….i can see how she felt you were cold (personally I would have used the word condescending). You also say she pushed you away. Once again, that put all the blame on her. Com’on dude – own your chit here. She may have pushed BUT YOU COULD HAVE PULLED HER CLOSER.

Quote:
But after marriage w stopped being w. She changed. And the changes weren't good. And the changes weren't easy to see, they were small and slow but they were there. And after 17 years she wasn't the person I feel in love with.

Once again…your posts are always about HER. Always about what she did wrong.

Quote:
She didn't grow with me as a couple

Notice a patter…”she didn’t”

Dude, she did not have to GROW WITH YOU…. She needed to grow….you needed to grow….. You could have grown separately and then met in the middle. Lemme ask you a question…how often where you home? How many hours was she alone while you were working?

Quote:
but the c agreed that I at least needed some individual work first. I have been in ic ever since.

Does this ^^^ tell you something? Have you thought for a second what the reason was that your IC said you needed individual work “first”.

Quote:
Putting feelings into words is a bit of a struggle

Funny….you have a hard time putting feeling into words…yet it seems pretty easy and consistent for you to write about everything that your W did or didn’t do. Are you starting to see a pattern here?


Quote:
I don't want to be a victim.

Then don’t! I think I have said this before….

A MAN OWNS HIS CHOICES

A BOY BLAMES OTHERS

Quote:
I met my wife and fell in love within seconds. Not minutes not weeks not years seconds. She is /was( please for the love of god don't crucify me on this) first and foremost my very best friend. She was( I can say was now) my lover my support my confident. Everything.

YET you are willing to throw it away.

Quote:
But as our marriage progressed it FELT TO ME that she new I couldn't voice my wants and simply took advantage of that and did as she pleased.

First you are making or made an assumption that she “knew”. Second……”and did as she pleased”… Can see how that sounds? Did you expect her to stay home, take care of the kids, have sex when you wanted and just nicey nicey wife? If you did, it is actually quite normal for men of our generation to feel that way – probable is…women have changed and the way/manner in which we taught to treat them was flawed. She is/was entitled to do whatever it is she wants to. You do not OWN her. Remember…..she was (your words)….my best friend.


Quote:
But my worry my fear is that I have lost all the feelings and they will never come back.

Faulty relationship thinking - …first FEAR is just that FEAR. It is not a fact. In terms of the feeling never coming back – I am believer in never saying never. You nor I know what the future holds…unless your God. The feeling CAN come back BUT it take WORK. Just like any relationship. Us men seem to think….as long we pay the bills, don’t cheat, have sex every now and then….that it should be enough for our wives. It is NOT. Never was. The difference between now and then is that women are more comfortable talking and dealing with there needs. So yeah…the feeling can come back. IF YOU WANT THEM TOO.


Quote:
Recent events which I am not ready to share have also caused me to loose my trust.

Now this quote kinda pissed me off. It is a veiled dig. What is she sleeping with someone else OR is that how YOU feel?

Quote:
F*#k I swear these post aren't me. I can do better then this

Then do better.

Quote:
Cadet
I'm going to disagree with love is a choice.

So what is LOVE to YOU? Define it. How do you receive it? What makes you feel loved? How do you give it?

Quote:
Reading that she saw me as weak. It made me angry. I spoke to a friend last night about it. Those words had sent me to a very dark place on Friday night. He said this might hurt a bit but I need to know, " are you hurt because she wrote those words or are you hurt because you think they may be true?" It was a slap across my face. I didn't know or have an answer. Still don't

So you have seen what she has written about you and NOW you are angry. I wonder how she would feel if she saw what your wrote about HER.

Quote:
But on the other side there were things I voiced as important to me. She ignored them.
How do we correct this in ourselves??? I understand I need to take responsibility for what I didn't say but how do I take responsibility for the things I did say but were never heard?

Give examples.

Here is one I will give you…. I love steak. Love a big rib eye on the grill. So….I ask my partner to cook steak at least one day a week. She doesn’t. I can….

a) Sit, stew and build resentment or
b) Go buy and cook my big steak myself. When she asks why I am doing it, I simple express that I wanted a steak.

Can you see the difference. You can and should not EXPECT that your W always does EVERYTHING YOU want.

Quote:
My w was a sahm. But our home was always a huge mess. More like a frat house then a home. This wasn't just the case while kids were in diapers but the norm even to today. I told her repeatedly that coming home to a clean house made me feel good. It was important to me. Her response was always "you want it clean then clean it. I'm not that type of person." It felt to me that she didn't value my efforts to provide her and the kids with a nice home and nice things. I felt like I was taken for granted

First…when you are a SAHM…it is not easy. Kids running all over the damn place, the minute you clean they make a mess. I can relate that what you were looking forward to. Lord knows I am a very neat person (no comments Mach)….What I see though is you trying to CHANGE her instead of ACCEPTING her the way she was. So…could you have hired a cleaning lady to come in once a week? I remember having this very same complaint about my ex. And FTR, she is still a slob. What she did bring to the R though was different. She was a good mom, a good cook, she was “simple”…My point is that she had a lot of positives that I CHOOSE NOT TO LOOK AT – in part because I allowed resentment to build up. Can you see where you may have done this?

Quote:
Clearly most of the responses seem to indicate I'm the one who should change. Why is change only expected on one side? Thoughts please!!!

Would you rather by HAPPY or RIGHT?


Think about it….for a second…on one hand you wanted to provide your W and kids with the best you could, you wanted to be home and spend time with the family – these are YOUR words.

Remember we talked about WORDS and ACTIONS


You now want a D, chances are the income now has to support two households…so you going to have to skimp on giving the kids the “best”….. did you spend as much time with the family OR where you emotionally unavailable and distant – in part because you were depressed?


My point, is that as DB teachs….”re-frame how you look at things”. Yes maybe the house was a mess, maybe you could have turn it around and offered to take W out on a romantic get-a-way or just a night out, then throw on some candles and have a little porn star sex. If you always look at the NEGATIVES….you will never see the POSITIVES.

Quote:
Ok enough bs
Here we go
I can walk into the most dire of situations and take control. As an emt I have done that from everything from drug beating car accidents cardiac arrest and deliverying a baby. No issue here. As long as it doesn't involve me I'm solid strong and capable.
But the minute it's about me. My wants my choices. I revert to the child who only wants to please everyone and be liked. At 46 I am still the child I was taught to be. It ended my marriage. It built up bitterness and self loathing. And it made me feel weak.
So now I'm here. A starting point. I have an ic. I have friends who I've said this to and who are working to support my changes. I am on step one.

BEST FU*KING THINGS I HAVE SEEN YOU WRITE!

So how do we get to Step 2?

Originally Posted By: POSTED BY WONDER WOMAN GABBYMOM
And it's not about changing who we are. It's about improving who we are. Being better for ourselves. Usually these changes improve all different relationships in our lives.

Bingo ^^^^ Hey CW….I asked an old poster this and according to him….it help clear up things.

Would you want to be married to YOU…the way you are today?

If NO – keep posting and working.

If YES – stop posting.

Quote:
I invaded her privacy and read her words. I saw a truth about how she saw me and was destroyed by it. In that way she was right. I am weak

WOW that is pretty f*cked up. A little controlling if you ask me and creepy. What I find interesting is that you are invading her privacy yet you say you have no feeling for her. Personally, I think you still love her and really want this to work. Personally, I think you just may be using this forum to communicate to HER, which honestly is a little manipulative. I think CW….your actions needs to start matching YOUR WORDS.


Quote:
When we finally started talking about problems at the beginning of S W said she stopped the physical because she didn't feel loved.

Write this down – she stopped “feeling loved”. This BTW is a hint for YOU – how does she want to “feel loved” – You’ll need this if you are to try and reconcile.

Quote:
And she need to feel the emotional to give the physical. I didn't understand exactly because I can have one or the other or both.

Women are very different than men – emotionally connect with her and her body will be yours. The key is to understand how to “emotionally connect with her”.

CW…I asked earlier in this post…how you receive and give love. This is going to be key. I believe that YOU like many men (myself included)…give love the way we want to receive it. I have since learned just how selfish that is. We must learn our partners. Learn how they want to receive love and then disperse our love in a manner that they can receive it. For example: I love to be talked to, engaged emotionally…that is how I receive and “feel loved”. My fiancé “feels love” when we are physical. In many ways she is more of the traditional male in our R. My point though is how do YOU think your W receives love. Apparently it was not the physical – otherwise you would not have not had sex for 5 years.


"The difficulties of Life are intended to make us BETTER,not bitter".
"Fear is a prison, where you are the jailer. FREE YOURSELF!"
"Life is usually all about how you handle Plan B." - Jack3Beans
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