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No, I was saying this because if you haven't actually experienced any of it, it is all an interesting hypothetical on your part.

A couple of useful analogies to illustrate:

I can tell you all the individual movements and limits to movements of the pieces on a chess board. I can tell that "white starts first." I can tell you what constitutes "checkmate" and how that ends the game. I can define for you what a "stalemate" is and how it differs from a "draw."

But do you "know chess?"

How about riding a bicycle or using a pair of skis or snowboard and "balance." I can describe what to do, you can read about other people's experience, and watch other people and imagine what it might be like if you could achieve the level of balance to begin skiing or snowboarding. Interestingly, your own sense of balance from walking or running gives you only some small amount of knowledge (in that you don't fall and you might know the sensation of falling). But your sense of balance and your
ability to describe it or have it described is very, very limited.

Why? Because you developed the muscle motor skills and the neural pathways to have it function in an automatic way without language.

Or how about my current interest and activity: running marathons? You can read about what it takes, what people experience, how to train, etc. But until you actually step up to the training and ultimately to the starting line and finish the race. it is all an interesting hypothetical.

Or how about a not so analogous example: the intimate sexual experience? You can read about it, learn about some things that may be pleasurable for you or your partner, maybe what constitutes "good sex" and "bad sex" or what you might feel when intimately connected to another person through sexual experience(s). However, those imaginings are probably far less vivid than the actual experience.

And that was the intent of my comment. It makes for an interesting hypothetical discussion if you've never gone through it. But the reality of the experience is likely to be far different than thinking about it in the abstract and hypothetical world.

The Captain


Last sex: 04/06/1997
Last attempt: 11/11/1997
W Issues "No Means No" Declaration: 11/11/1997
W chooses to terminate sex 05/1998
I gained 60, then lost 85 pounds.
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You pick some amusing examples. Yes, I play chess, ride bicycles, ski, and run marathons. And I certainly never had a problem with my own sexual functioning, but I have not had all the facets of a good partnered experience which might be considered normal for most people.

You're right, I wouldn't truly know what divorce is like until I have it. But I disagree with what you seem to be implying, namely that if I did A, then it would result in B which I haven't experienced.

Just as an example of my point, not everyone handles or reacts to a situation the same way. Several people in my extended family had apparently open marriages (I say because everyone knew about, it though they didn't announce it) and nobody divorced anybody, nobody was angry, nobody felt betrayed, and everyone was on very good terms, including my own parents. So you could say I wouldn't know about the effects of extramarital sex because I haven't seen the pain of betrayal and divorce. And my answer would you're wrong because those aren't always the effects.

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Originally Posted By: ssmguy
You pick some amusing examples. Yes, I play chess, ride bicycles, ski, and run marathons. And I certainly never had a problem with my own sexual functioning, but I have not had all the facets of a good partnered experience which might be considered normal for most people.

You're right, I wouldn't truly know what divorce is like until I have it. But I disagree with what you seem to be implying, namely that if I did A, then it would result in B which I haven't experienced.

Just as an example of my point, not everyone handles or reacts to a situation the same way. Several people in my extended family had apparently open marriages (I say because everyone knew about, it though they didn't announce it) and nobody divorced anybody, nobody was angry, nobody felt betrayed, and everyone was on very good terms, including my own parents. So you could say I wouldn't know about the effects of extramarital sex because I haven't seen the pain of betrayal and divorce. And my answer would you're wrong because those aren't always the effects.


Each of you extreme sexless are under the same effects as anyone else who is suffering from extreme sexlessnes. The soul looks deprived. In order to maintain momentum, you have a lot of anger to be in extreme activities, but each and every day you know you are cheated out of life and you move on. Compartamentalizing that portion, but you can see it in your soul in your image. There is no good reason for it. I'm really down about people being abused and neglected like this.

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Wow. I'm totally blown away. I'm so very sorry to hear of your history and of the childhood wounds denied. I'm not sure if you've mentioned this aspect of what it was like for you to be a member of your family before, but I've not seen you mention it.

Have you looked at how the dysfunction has affected your ability for intimacy? Have you ever tried any 12-step programs, for addicts or co-dependents? Have you ever thought that your wife might be a sexual anorexic, which is a type of sexual addiction? Melody Beattie's work on codependency might be helpful.

Thanks for your openness. It helped me remember my compassion.


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Are you kidding me? I had to double check that you were actually replying to me. I suppose you're going to say I'm in deep denial. Your response is hilariously patronizing.

Childhood wounds? No. And by the way, I've been over my childhood in therapy as part of our marriage therapy. Not an issue. My parents set a good example of being loving and caring without jealousy, secrecy or dishonesty. I'm not sure what kind of yardstick you're applying to my life, but it feels judgemental, rigid and cold to me. That's not to say that it doesn't work well for you.

Or am I totally misunderstanding something here?

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And yes, I read Patrick Carnes book on sexual anorexia. But just reading books and getting tons of intellectual insight only goes so far.

As for 12 step anything, you have to get your partner to be interested in doing it. If I could get just that far, I'd almost consider my problem solved.

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Originally Posted By: ssmguy
You pick some amusing examples. Yes, I play chess, ride bicycles, ski, and run marathons. And I certainly never had a problem with my own sexual functioning, but I have not had all the facets of a good partnered experience which might be considered normal for most people.

You're right, I wouldn't truly know what divorce is like until I have it. But I disagree with what you seem to be implying, namely that if I did A, then it would result in B which I haven't experienced.

Just as an example of my point, not everyone handles or reacts to a situation the same way. Several people in my extended family had apparently open marriages (I say because everyone knew about, it though they didn't announce it) and nobody divorced anybody, nobody was angry, nobody felt betrayed, and everyone was on very good terms, including my own parents. So you could say I wouldn't know about the effects of extramarital sex because I haven't seen the pain of betrayal and divorce. And my answer would you're wrong because those aren't always the effects.


In my own sex-life, before it all went south with my first wife with the birth of our son and then a couple of years later with her affair, and then with my second wife as the need for a radical hysterectomy became more urgent, my sex life was good and what I would consider normal, even adventuresome in their own ways. Its the contrast of such a good sex life to absolute zero that was the challenge.

And I'll be perfectly blunt about it, I see no reason to hope that there will ever be ANY sex in this marriage for as long as we remain married. And so I've given up on my sex life and gone on to pursue other things that she cannot. She is in total control of the absence of the sex life and it is something that she is unwilling relinquish.

I've traded an intimate relationship in a marriage for a legal marriage with a housemate where we share responsibilities for a household and occasional time together for dinner, or a trip to the beach. It not that these are unpleasant times, they just aren't intimate.

Actually, you do know that B follows A. You see it all around you and you know better. How do we know? Well, if you really believed that the limited case of open marriage and affairs did not cause any problems and would not cause any problems in your own marriage, it wouldn't even be an issue for you. You'd be married and having a wonderful sex life...it just wouldn't be with your wife.

And the point wasn't that B follows A. The point was that you lack both A and B (or C, D, E, or F which may follow from A) as personal experiences from which to discuss your experience with either affairs or divorce. The example you gave is like knowing the moves of the chess pieces from the outside without actually "playing the game."

The Captain


Last sex: 04/06/1997
Last attempt: 11/11/1997
W Issues "No Means No" Declaration: 11/11/1997
W chooses to terminate sex 05/1998
I gained 60, then lost 85 pounds.
Start running again (marathons)
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 315
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Originally Posted By: DaddyLongShanks
Originally Posted By: ssmguy
You pick some amusing examples. Yes, I play chess, ride bicycles, ski, and run marathons. And I certainly never had a problem with my own sexual functioning, but I have not had all the facets of a good partnered experience which might be considered normal for most people.

You're right, I wouldn't truly know what divorce is like until I have it. But I disagree with what you seem to be implying, namely that if I did A, then it would result in B which I haven't experienced.

Just as an example of my point, not everyone handles or reacts to a situation the same way. Several people in my extended family had apparently open marriages (I say because everyone knew about, it though they didn't announce it) and nobody divorced anybody, nobody was angry, nobody felt betrayed, and everyone was on very good terms, including my own parents. So you could say I wouldn't know about the effects of extramarital sex because I haven't seen the pain of betrayal and divorce. And my answer would you're wrong because those aren't always the effects.


Each of you extreme sexless are under the same effects as anyone else who is suffering from extreme sexlessnes. The soul looks deprived. In order to maintain momentum, you have a lot of anger to be in extreme activities, but each and every day you know you are cheated out of life and you move on. Compartamentalizing that portion, but you can see it in your soul in your image. There is no good reason for it. I'm really down about people being abused and neglected like this.


People be who they be. Ultimately, who they really are "shows up." Chess, bicycle riding, or skiing are hardly extremes. They serve as useful examples and analogies for the discussion.

Can I deny that running is an outlet for the loss of intimacy or a way to channel that unused energy? No. But I don't run angry. Running is a way I defined myself before there was any attachment or love for someone outside of my family. So, in one way I've gone back to a way that I've known myself in the past...though never as a marathon runner.

And why marathons? Because 99.99% of the human population will never run that distance all at once. They won't even put in the time and training that it requires to respect the distance. Of those who do, there are a fair number that will only do it once. I've run three in six months.

There is a calm in the long training runs and during the races. I'm on a summer break from marathons (though I am still running half-marathon races and will be training throughout the summer. So rather than sexless husband, I have an identity of marathon runner.

And once I gave up on having a sex life with my wife and realized that she would never willingly have sex with me again, I rarely think about the loss of sex.

Its just who she is and I did not realize that before we were married.

The Captain


Last sex: 04/06/1997
Last attempt: 11/11/1997
W Issues "No Means No" Declaration: 11/11/1997
W chooses to terminate sex 05/1998
I gained 60, then lost 85 pounds.
Start running again (marathons)
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,502
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I'm getting divorced, I'll let you know how it is on the other side.


Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced
M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11
Start Reconcile: 8/15/11
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced)
In a New Relationship: 3/2015
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Originally Posted By: Accuray
I'm getting divorced, I'll let you know how it is on the other side.


Congrats Accuray. The pain and devastation has continued long enough. Now you are taking control of your life. It doesn't mean you won't be open to a opposite sex relationship partner, but you have some needs that any intended lover will need to meet. Having a female room mate was not in the cards, nor a non-sexual female lover. You can be friends or associates and use someone else for a lover.

I wanted you to provide feedback in the "Sexual Issues" forum to my responses.

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