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Thank you AS.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Yes, Thank you Sandi!!


Me 47/W 34
T 16 M 13
No kids
BD 6/2013
W asked that I move out 6/2013
I moved back and W is upset with this 12/2013
separate beds not much talking
Served D Complaint 5/2014
W moved out 9/27/2014
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Hi,

Sent it over to Newcomer forum and a moderator is looking it over

Regards,
Charlie

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Update after a month or so of living dim and just trying not to poke the bear.

We talked tonight because W needs to fill our HR person in on how things are going, specifically with the four requests/guidelines we were given for our 6-month assignment here. They asked us to make efforts to move toward one another, to connect with people in this area who could walk through this time with us, to continue our individual counseling, and for me to continue in my directing role, preparing to transition out of it if necessary.

(For those confused, we have a faith-based job and our M crisis affects our careers and so this thing is just a mess in some ways).

Anyway, I talk with the male HR person about every two weeks or so, even though the requirement was just every six weeks. W hasn't spoken with the female HR person since November.

This morning W asked if we could have a conversation tonight since she has to speak with HR. Though inwardly I dreaded the idea, I calmly said sure and then left for work and to drive D5 to and from preschool for the day. I prayed for a surrendered heart.

We spoke tonight after the kids were in bed. I asked her what she wanted to talk about, and she said we needed to talk since she hasn't really lived up to the guidelines given to us. Throughout the conversation, I felt that she was wanting me to lead it but only toward the conclusions she wants (separation or divorce, figure out child custody, etc.).

I mentioned several times that I accept where she is. She asked me what we are going to do, and I told her that I accept that if she makes certain choices then I will need to respond to them. If she chooses to find another job (she mentioned temping or waitressing today - this is the level of her desperation) and our current employer lets us both go because of it then I have been preparing my resume and will begin looking for a job. If she finds a lawyer, then I will go find a lawyer. If she leaves, then we will figure out custody situation.

She mentioned that she is sad every day, and lonely every day. I told her that this sounds like a terrible place emotionally, and I would not wish that for her. I asked her if she felt leaving would make her happier, and she did not like that question. It brought a lot of defensiveness. She said she is lonely because she doesn't know many people in the area. What I wanted to say - well, there was much I wanted to say but I held my tongue.

She continued to ask why I continue to seem surprised by her desires. I told her every one of the people in our lives, friends and family, were surprised. She said that "if I know her even just a little bit, I will know that she is done." Since she has said this a few times before in other conversations, I respectfully and gently asked her what it meant. I asked if it meant that when she decides to stop liking someone, or to stop investing in something, then she ends the relationship and it is a done deal - and that I should know this pattern if I know her? This kind of confused her, because I don't think she knows what she means when she says it either. She did respond by saying it wasn't a choice, or something that she could change - that the connection has been lost.

She told me she couldn't "make me understand." I affirmed that I have listened these 8 months and that I see the holes in the marriage, and that things weren't perfect. I affirmed that I understand her complaints.

And I said that if by making me understand, she means me agreeing (heart, mind, and soul) to her solution of ending the marriage, then I was not able to make that desire mutual. I did also tell her though that I am not going to push against her desire to separate, if she chooses that. I told her that in order to respect her and give her dignity, I would accept where she is at.

She asked how we would make it work financially, and this question really did stump me. Two people with a formerly decent income soon to be potentially unemployed - barely swinging things at the moment without having to pay even one rent or utility bill ("barely swinging things" partly because of moving back, counseling costs, etc. - things I didn't mention to her). I told her it would be highly challenging and that all we could do in each look for the best jobs we could find if it comes to that.

She mentioned lawyers, and I have a trusted friend who is a lawyer and is pro-marriage but who does do mediation for couples who are at that point. I mentioned him as an option, rather than fight with two lawyers. Her excuse for not wanting to do that is that he is a two hour drive away. I told her I would consider other options.

I asked her if she had thought about the kids. She said she thinks about it everyday. I asked her if she had thought about custody options, and she said maybe "someone has them during the week, someone on the weekends or vice versa."

I tried to let her talk, but she continually asked me questions, almost expecting that I would have the solution.

We didn't make any decisions, but I just let her know that I am not closed to these discussions.

It does, unfortunately, look like at least separation looms on the horizon. Maybe this is for the best (sigh).

How did I do, DB-wise? Any corrections? How should I handle it the next few days?

Personally and spiritually, I am more prepared for this. I have been considering job opportunities, and other cool opportunities in the area. I have hung out more with friends, have taken the kids for a weekend trip to some friends a few times, and have begun playing guitar more again (played a lot in younger days and got too busy for it the last 5-6 years).

I also began what I am calling "40 days of surrender," where I am just not initiating, not pursuing, not trying to control, etc. etc. I have been "doing" this for months, but not consistently. Essentially going as dim as possible considering we have two young children and still live under the same roof.


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Me: 37 W: 37
M: 11
D:5 S:2
IDLYA, W removed rings, BD 07/13
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And sandi, I know it has been a few weeks since your last two replies. They have been more valuable than gold. I do plan to respond to them.


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M: 11
D:5 S:2
IDLYA, W removed rings, BD 07/13
EA/Fantasy (PA?) confirmed 12/13
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Originally Posted By: sandi2
WAW's are usually angry (visibly or not) and are not looking for solutions to improve their MR. She is past the desire to have it fixed. Just as it angers her to see you doing things now that she wanted you to do in the past, it also makes her angry to see you seeking or suggesting solutions to fix the broken MR. Truth is, the man is making it much worse on himself.


This makes sense, and it is of course what it took me some time to embrace even though people on the boards were telling me the same thing. When you say that the man is making it worse on himself, do you mean the frustration of spinning his wheels and seeing no results? This was definitely hard in the early months, and I still struggle with accepting the fact that I can do nothing to change her mind or heart. But this is the truth.

Quote:
I get amazed at a lot of LBH'S who "claim" they do certain things for themselves, when really they are doing it to emotionally impress the WAW. She may be in a fog, but she stills knows her H better than anyone and it would be hard to fool her regarding his true intentions behind his actions. Not that I'm comparing our S with God, but you know how the scripture teaches that God sees the heart of man and knows our true intent? We have to dig deep sometimes b/c we can lie to ourselves about why we are really doing good deeds, etc. Right? I think a lot of LBH's convince themselves they are changing and doing certain deeds in order to be a better man......when in fact, if his W left, he would stop doing it. Perhaps a good measuring stick would to ask yourself if (whatever the action) is something yowidowed do even if your W never knows about it. If you can remove the "earning browning points" from the equation, then it may help you see the true reason behind your actions. If you are not doing an action to make brownie points, then you will be able to withstand her negative reactions.


I think that the 180s I am doing, they are for me - but some of them were birthed from the awareness I have received through this crisis. Getting fit again, dropping the extra weight, getting back into my guitar playing - those are all things I wanted to do but they took a back seat for years. On the other hand, "seeing" as I see now that the intimacy in our marriage was of a much lower quality than I was willing to consider - well, what that does to me is it makes me yearn for real intimacy now that I see the "illusion" of what I was settling for (i.e. - I live my own life most of the week, she does the same, we both pour our lives into the kids, we do our weekly date night and make love once or twice a week BUT we are somewhat like islands living under the illusion of marriage).

The irony is that now I see it and want intimacy on a much deeper level - probably what she wanted for years - and I may have lost my only chance for it, at least in a romantic sense. My feelings may change if she leaves for good and a few years go by, but right now I still believe that I have been given one spouse for a lifetime.

So there is a deep loneliness within me and it is compounded by seeing her daily and not "meeting" emotionally.

Just as I am in the process of understanding that control is an illusion, so I am understanding that the pursuit of happiness is an illusion. We may grasp happiness for moments, but if we make happiness our goal - that idol will inevitably fall due to any number of factors. I believe my happiness was an idol - or that I was my own idol - and now I am paying the price. Of course, I never would have seen that before this crisis but I really thought we will both happy. There was a lack of awareness or a blindness.

Quote:

You are sorry she isn't happy that you are present while children say their nightly prayers (for example), however, as the spiritual leader in the home, this is your responsibility and you will do it whether she's there or not......until the kids are older. You don't have to give a sermon about your purpose behind what you do, you just quietly continue doing it. For me, I have found that if I am not doing something in order for "Sandi" to get personal glory from it, then it's usually for the "right" reasons. But it hard to get "self" out of the way.


This is the prelude to the gospel. It is also what is helping me to surrender control. I cannot get myself out of the way by "trying" to let go. Trying to surrender is an oxymoron. I am beginning to understand that surrender means letting go, not trying to let go.

Quote:
When you consider how the LBH has to learn by trial & error and all the time used up just for him to "get it", and double that time (at least) for her to wake up, get through the withdrawal & depression, and finally start trying to make your reality better........well you see where I'm going. I think your key words in that quote are "self-awareness" and "courage". By her referring to it as her fantasy, tells us she is trying to escape from the reality around her. When you use the word "courage", that immediately causes me to think one of two things. There is something scary in her reality or she is emotionally frail. I see missionaries in foreign countries as anything but frail, but that's just me.


She had a very hard early life filled with various types of abuse and neglect, which I believe makes her emotionally frail deep inside. She saw me as her knight in shining armor to rescue her from her inner pain. When I proved to be both unable to do that (I'm human) and full of my own baggage (I'm sinful as well) then she saw that me as her savior was not a good plan. She had made me an idol, and I enjoyed that role. Until the illusion faded and she did what she really should do to an idol - hate it for not being able to do what you want it to do.

My therapist talks about triggers, and I might not know the trigger which finally caused her to snap, but it isn't really important.

Quote:

For me it wasn't so much a lack of courage as it was lack of energy........and hope. Hopelessness is like a death. I see so many LBS here who don't want to lose hope. Well, I had lost hope for my M and I think it was like a death. It didn't happen in a few months. It took years for it to die. It does seem easier when you think about a new one...instead of resurrecting a dead one!


This sums up my W 100% right now,

Quote:

Your question is hard to answer in a few words, but I will tell you that my foundation I had in the church and the teaching of forgiveness was my crossroad with my H. As a Christian, I had to deal with the issue of unforgiveness. I had to admit to myself and confess to God that I had not truly forgiven my H of a lot of things over the past. I had so much i had pushed down that was never r esolved in our M. I'm talking many, many years of deep resentment. Over time, that resentment turned into a monster! It turned me into a bitter and critical person who blames my H for practically everything. So, after coming here and getting excellent advice, I had to make a decision (my crossroad). I had to forgive my H, even though he has never asked me to forgive him.....or admit he had a part in the breakdown of our M. I had to forgive him, for me.


W says she has forgiven me for my part in all this... but she is definitely that low-energy hopeless WAW and I have seen (7 months into this) that only some kind of inner insight or divine intervention could change her heart.

Do you think blaming your spouse for everything is simply a natural way to avoid the energy-consuming process of taking responsibility for your part in the relationship, and to rationalize your own poor decisions like the affair? I'm not talking about you personally sandi, but the average WAW.


[quote ]I had to forgive him in order to go on. Your W, hopefully, has the same teaching. How long it will take her, we don't know. The thing about forgiveness is it involves our own free volition to actually do it. Some people had rather hang onto all that anger and have another person to blame instead of taking responsibility for their own happiness. (which is another long topic for another time,) [/quote]

You kind of just answered what I just asked smile. You must have read my mind. W has told me several times that, "if you know me even a little bit, you will know that I am done and nothing will change that." I asked her once if by that she meant that I should know her pattern of ending friendships once she decides there is something about the person she doesn't like. I told her I didn't see her that way but I was curious what she means by this. She didn't really have an answer.

Quote:
Let me stop here, due to length of post, and I'll start another one. I tend to get sidetracked and end up not answering the actual question.


I will also stop here and respond to part 2 of your post later. Your perspective, sandi, is invaluable and I am "hearing" it with the utmost respect.


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Me: 37 W: 37
M: 11
D:5 S:2
IDLYA, W removed rings, BD 07/13
EA/Fantasy (PA?) confirmed 12/13
W moved out 05/14
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Originally Posted By: sandi2
Quote:
But shouldn't this process of "becoming the husband only a fool would leave" be leading us toward some more positive interactions with each other?


In time it should, if her idea of that H is the same as yours. But I think when a woman is ready to walk away from the M b/c she has basically given up on getting her needs met in the MR, and after she reaches that decision she sees her H doing things that he wouldn't do when she wanted & tried to get him to do in the past.... yes, it could cause anger. She is angry b/c you waited until now to do it.

IMO, some WAW probably want to scream at the LBH and say, "Don't you get it? I'm through with all of this! You wait until the M is over and then you decide to do what I've tried to get you to do for years?"

I don't how you respond (if any)to her anger, but if you can understand why she's angry, it might help you to be sensitive to her feelings. You probably think you can't do anything to please her at the moment, and a lot of that may be true, b/c she has a lot of "stuff" that she has to work through. Just as you can't expect overnight to become that man only a fool would leave, neither can she get her stuff together that quickly.

Since you both are Christians, I will tell you this about my own stitch as a WAW who got busted on her EA. I did not happily make a decision to stay in my M. I was not eager and did not care about putting forth one ounce of effort to improve the R. I was extremely resentful of many things in our past MR together and had no desire to continue on with my H. My decision was simply made to "do the right thing". I had always done the right thing (based on what I was taught) except, of course, during the EA/WAW time. However, my decision to do "right" did not bring me happiness. My H & I were going through several very tough transitions in life....our ages, increasing health problems,finances,family, MR, etc. In trying to escape from my reality through an EA, actually made these other problems escalate. My H's health steadily got worse. I won't go into all of it, but my point is that we had to get through all those other transitions whether our we stayed together or not. Lord only knows what kind of mess I would be in today if I had left. I will forever be thankful I chose to do the right thing. However, positive feelings were not there for me. I was just there....and for a long time, that was the best I could do. I realize everyone is not the same, but that was how I was at that time.

Once I made the decision to stay, then I had to get through the withdrawal addiction of the EA. It was very difficult and if not for this board talking to me every night, I don't know if I would have made it. After I got through the withdrawal period, then I thought I would nearly die with depression. It was horrible. I had a lot of work to do on myself before I could get enough strength to work on the M. When you have no desire to be in a position you're in.......how much do you really give it? I can tell you..... not very much at all.

My H didn't have the tools you've received here on the board. He wouldn't go with me to see a MC to piece our M back together. But he was and has continued to be a lighthouse in many ways. His love for me is amazing and I will never be the W he truly deserves. I've not told many folks this, b/c they don't want to hear what I'm about to tell you. After making the decision to do the right thing....it took around two more years of me getting through my personal "stuff"...and getting my heart right... and able to feel like I could put some effort toward a better M. And all those other transitional problems we were facing? Well, they didn't magically disappear once I made the right decision.

I don't tell that information often b/c it must sound discouraging to newcomers. I am not sure why I'm telling you, but just felt like I should. I do want the LBS to know that sometimes just making the decision is exhausting b/c it affects the rest of life.

Remember, you are on a path that is not going to be parallel to hers for quite some time. You both will take a lot of twists and turns before traveling down the road as a happy couple. You may observe her and listen to her, but you don't know what all is going through her head/heart. When she gets in a mood over you trying to be that wonderful guy, just remind yourself she has so much of her own stuff to get through...and it will take time. And if she does make the right decision, don't expect her to be excited about staying. The right decision is her first step, but those emotions you have about a new MR probably won't be her emotions for a while. That's not to say it's hopeless! It will come, but it takes time.

Some LBH's let these everyday things push them to give up, but I'm telling you if you can hang in there, the M can be saved....even if she's not putting anything toward working on it right now.


Sandi2, your advice is absolutely correct. It's amazing that no matter how the details of a situation may differ so many things are the same in a WAW situation. The advice you give here is totally applicable to my own situation with my WAW. The key I feel is time, patience and a genuine desire to make yourself, the LBS, the best you can be. Over time, with healing, I think there is hope for almost all situations like this.


Me-40,W-37
D7, D5, S3
Separated Oct 3/2013
T 11 YRS
M 7 YRS
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It's been several months since I was here... I've been accepting things more and just trying to live with the reality of W's choices. She hasn't wavered in 10 months since bomb drop.

She ended up moving out 2 weeks ago. About a month ago, we had agreed theoretically on a shared custody schedule. She then expressed concern with whether it was appropriate for our young children (D6 and S2).

At that point, she was only willing to consider 5-2 at the best (where they sleep at her place 5 nights a week and my place 2 nights a week, but I have frequent access to them the other days). Her two reasons for this are the consistent sleeping environment for children so young, and the attachment-based idea of them needing their mom right now at this point in their development, especially S2.

I then insisted on at least 4-3, and we could not agree. She mentioned lawyers. At that point, I asked her if we could talk with a third person about this.

We talked with a third person, a mutually-trusted friend who is a counselor. This third person suggested we experiment with 4-3. I thought we left the conversation agreeing on this. A few days later, W said she still didn't like 4-3 and angrily insisted on 5-2. I held my ground and she said "fine" and left.

Last week, we did 4-3. This week is S2's birthday and we exchanged a series of texts about this...

W: I wanted the kids to sleep here Wednesday so he could wake up here in his bday morning (it will be 5-2 this week)...And then you can pick them up after lunch. Friday I was thinking we could go to [local kids' play place] in the morning??? It's crazy to go there in the wkd.

Me: That's all fine. I can see if [cousin] can come Friday to [playplace]. And it's a good idea to let them stay Wednesday night so he can have time with you Thursday morning. In that case, I can have them stay Saturday night too and bring them back after church Sunday.

W: No i meant we can do 5-2 this week...I'm off this Saturday...it's Memorial Day weekend.

Me: I am fine with adapting to birthdays and holidays but would prefer, when we do that kind of thing, that we "trade" days instead of just making it 5-2.

W: Well I hear you. I really wanted to do 5-2 all the time; instead we are doing what you suggested.




So, I haven't responded to her last text. Here are the thoughts/fears in my hear:

* I am worried about setting precedent where we just revert to 5-2 any week where there is something weird about the schedule.

* BUT... she has mentioned lawyers and based on the books I'm reading, I really would prefer to not have an angry lawyer-filled legal battle about kids or finances. The reality is that if we go that direction, I'm fearful that based on the state we live in, and the legal advice I have received, 5-2 or worse could be the result.

I feel handcuffed. If I hold my ground, I anger W and risk a legal remedy which I fear is even worse. On the other hand, if I let it go, I am playing by her non-negotiable rules.

The angry part of me says, "She left me (cheated, lied, blames me for it all), why should I even have to live one night without the kids?" The what's-best-for-the-kids part of me says, "Maybe this isn't the hill I want to fight and die upon, if I want to avoid a legal battle where my rights as a father may be denied even more."

This really is sad for all of us involved.


_________________________
Me: 37 W: 37
M: 11
D:5 S:2
IDLYA, W removed rings, BD 07/13
EA/Fantasy (PA?) confirmed 12/13
W moved out 05/14
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If 4-3 is what you believe is best for your children, stand your ground. Do not allow your W's threats to influence you. Where did you get the legal advice that you would get worse than 5-2 if you went to court?

I would call your W's bluff. What do you have to lose? Just bc she says now (in order to bully you into doing what she wants) that she will get Ls involved doesn't mean that there will necessarily be an ugly battle. You can always agree to 5-2, right? Why voluntarily give up what you want right now?

You cannot negotiate coming from a place of fear. You (your kids) will lose.

Did the C agree that it was best (or fine) for the kids to have a 4-3 arrangement? If so, you can remind W that it's not about who suggested what, it's about the best interests of your children, and that's 4-3, thank you, have a nice day.

If I were you I would see a GOOD D lawyer ASAP.


me: 44 XH: 42
M 11 years
D10 and S8
Bomb drop 9/27/13
D final 7/1/14
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