"Seeing" Both Possible Futures!

[S4tk]

sandi2,

Your post is very meaningful to me and I plan to respond but I just want to acknowledge it briefly and say thank you for writing. I will post more later.

s4tk

[S4tk]

In time it should, if her idea of that H is the same as yours. But I think when a woman is ready to walk away from the M b/c she has basically given up on getting her needs met in the MR, and after she reaches that decision she sees her H doing things that he wouldn't do when she wanted & tried to get him to do in the past.... yes, it could cause anger. She is angry b/c you waited until now to do it.

Sandi, this makes sense. My therapist wants me to get away from a "fix it" mentality, because he says real change requires true understanding. I get that, but I've had 20-some sessions with him and sometimes I leave confused about what he is getting at - especially since I feel that real change has been happening in me for the last several months.

I don't how you respond (if any)to her anger, but if you can understand why she's angry, it might help you to be sensitive to her feelings. You probably think you can't do anything to please her at the moment, and a lot of that may be true, b/c

I can understand her anger. It is true, I cannot do anything to please her at the moment. On the contrary, almost anything I do in her direction angers her. If I go participate with the kids' bedtime routine, it angers her. If I don't participate, it angers her. I almost feel a freedom to try anything, because both doing and not doing are currently producing the same result, at least on the outside.

she has a lot of "stuff" that she has to work through. Just as you can't expect overnight to become that man only a fool would leave, neither can she get her stuff together that quickly.

She does have "stuff" but I am beginning to doubt whether she has the self-awareness or courage to deal with it. How does a WAW ever shift from blaming their spouse and seeing him as the enemy, to seeing both sides of the coin and accepting her part? How did it happen for you?

Since you both are Christians, I will tell you this about my own stitch as a WAW who got busted on her EA. I did not happily make a decision to stay in my M. I was not eager and did not care about putting forth one ounce of effort to improve the R. I was extremely resentful of many things in our past MR together and had no desire to continue on with my H. My decision was simply made to "do the right thing". I had always done the right thing (based on what I was taught) except, of course, during the EA/WAW time. However, my decision to do "right" did not bring me happiness.

Recently my W agreed (after I found out about the EA, or as she calls it a fantasy) to take things a day at a time and "go with my idea to go out once a week together." This was something I don't know if I ever mentioned. My therapist suggested I gain more clarity by asking whether she was choosing willingly to spend time together once a week, or whether it was a concession to delay making a choice about leaving or staying. When I asked her if she was choosing it willingly, she said that was a good question that she would need to talk to her therapist about. That was a few weeks ago and we haven't followed up on that. I know that she doesn't want to do this but since she brought it up as an idea would if be harmful if we try it?

She has mentioned more than once not wanting to go to hell for her decision. I thought we were both people who believed in grace and forgiveness (the heart of the gospel) but I am seeing now that maybe she has often "done the right thing" out of fear. I don't know how to respond when she says things like that. I've told her I believe God forgives even when we make the wrong choice, but I don't know what else to say.

I hate that, in her mind, she is so ready to be out of the marriage that she is willing to risk eternal consequences for it. But it does give me a real hard look at how "done" she is if these are the thoughts going through her heart.

My H & I were going through several very tough transitions in life....our ages, increasing health problems,finances,family, MR, etc. In trying to escape from my reality through an EA, actually made these other problems escalate. My H's health steadily got worse. I won't go into all of it, but my point is that we had to get through all those other transitions whether our we stayed together or not.

She is going through a crisis of faith, vocation, and identity along with the M problems. I believe she feels that the M problems (i.e. me) was the catalyst for everything. So she blames me for the whole ball of yarn. Did you feel that way?

Lord only knows what kind of mess I would be in today if I had left. I will forever be thankful I chose to do the right thing. However, positive feelings were not there for me. I was just there....and for a long time, that was the best I could do. I realize everyone is not the same, but that was how I was at that time.

Do you now feel that you have intimacy with your H? Did you feel something like bereavement toward your marriage back then, almost like your H was dead to you? She has mentioned that several times, along with the feeling that once something is dead, it is dead.

Once I made the decision to stay, then I had to get through the withdrawal addiction of the EA. It was very difficult and if not for this board talking to me every night, I don't know if I would have made it.

She has only her thoughts and journals and has ended discussion with most friends who would support working on the M. Her daily interactions are now mostly casual friends, or old friends who are going through divorce, and possibly still the OM (or if this diary was really a fantasy, the man upon whom at least the bulk of the fantasy has to be based). If you were the one in the EA, what caused you to seek out this site?

Did your H finding out about the EA kind of bust the romance of it, since it was now revealed? Did you resent him even more for that?

After I got through the withdrawal period, then I thought I would nearly die with depression. It was horrible. I had a lot of work to do on myself before I could get enough strength to work on the M. When you have no desire to be in a position you're in.......how much do you really give it? I can tell you..... not very much at all.

Did H leave you alone during this time, kind of do his own thing and LRT? Was the depression still directed toward H?

When she does talk to me, it is almost always about her desire to go back to school. I have just been trying to listen and validate, and encourage her with the idea that she has the smarts and drive to do it. I would love for her to go back to school and "find herself again" in normal circumstances. But right now, it feels so threatening. I am being very vulnerable admitting that.

I've not told many folks this, b/c they don't want to hear what I'm about to tell you. After making the decision to do the right thing....it took around two more years of me getting through my personal "stuff"...and getting my heart right... and able to feel like I could put some effort toward a better M.

During that 2 years, was H aware that you had decided to stay, or was he just waiting out the uncertainty?

I don't tell that information often b/c it must sound discouraging to newcomers. I am not sure why I'm telling you, but just felt like I should. I do want the LBS to know that sometimes just making the decision is exhausting b/c it affects the rest of life.

This seems to be a meaningful glimpse into the heart of my wife. She feels like she has failed with everything in life, except for motherhood, and that the marriage is a joke. As a man, I compartmentalize things and this idea is hard to understand. Your comments help with that.

Remember, you are on a path that is not going to be parallel to hers for quite some time. You both will take a lot of twists and turns before traveling down the road as a happy couple. You may observe her and listen to her, but you don't know what all is going through her head/heart. When she gets in a mood over you trying to be that wonderful guy, just remind yourself she has so much of her own stuff to get through...and it will take time. And if she does make the right decision, don't expect her to be excited about staying.

That is also a meaningful glimpse into things. I appreciate your honesty here. I know I probably am still "new" at this situation, even though six months from BD feels like forever.

The right decision is her first step, but those emotions you have about a new MR probably won't be her emotions for a while. That's not to say it's hopeless! It will come, but it takes time.

The general advice here is to avoid relationship discussions. Would sharing my vision for a new M be harmful for her, or is the advice to avoid R talks more to protect the LBS from losing hope? My therapist (not exactly in line with brief solution oriented therapy but not anti either) has suggested inviting her into a new relationship, letting her know what I would choose and inviting her to consider choosing that as well.

Some LBH's let these everyday things push them to give up, but I'm telling you if you can hang in there, the M can be saved....even if she's not putting anything toward working on it right now.

I don't want to have future regrets about not trying everything I could to re-create our M. I really value the time you spent to share these experiences with me. Thank you sandi.

[sandi2]

You are seeing a therapist and she is seeing a therapist, plus you are getting advice on the DB board. I would think ir must get confusing sometimes, especially if the advice is contrary.

I agree 100% with your T in getting out of the "fix it" mode. First of all, she doesn't want you trying to fix her and will cause more problem for you. Second of all, some men take a certain pride being Mr Fixer......but what they don't understand is that women may not be asking him to fix something. An example would be her needing to talk about something stressful at work. He hears with his man ears that she needs solution, so he tells her what she needs to do to solve the problem. This frustrates her emotionally b/c she just wants him to listen to her talk about her feelings.....and to sympathize.

WAW's are usually angry (visibly or not) and are not looking for solutions to improve their MR. She is past the desire to have it fixed. Just as it angers her to see you doing things now that she wanted you to do in the past, it also makes her angry to see you seeking or suggesting solutions to fix the broken MR. Truth is, the man is making it much worse on himself.

I get amazed at a lot of LBH'S who "claim" they do certain things for themselves, when really they are doing it to emotionally impress the WAW. She may be in a fog, but she stills knows her H better than anyone and it would be hard to fool her regarding his true intentions behind his actions. Not that I'm comparing our S with God, but you know how the scripture teaches that God sees the heart of man and knows our true intent? We have to dig deep sometimes b/c we can lie to ourselves about why we are really doing good deeds, etc. Right? I think a lot of LBH's convince themselves they are changing and doing certain deeds in order to be a better man......when in fact, if his W left, he would stop doing it. Perhaps a good measuring stick would to ask yourself if (whatever the action) is something yowidowed do even if your W never knows about it. If you can remove the "earning browning points" from the equation, then it may help you see the true reason behind your actions. If you are not doing an action to make brownie points, then you will be able to withstand her negative reactions. You are sorry she isn't happy that you are present while children say their nightly prayers (for example), however, as the spiritual leader in the home, this is your responsibility and you will do it whether she's there or not......until the kids are older. You don't have to give a sermon about your purpose behind what you do, you just quietly continue doing it. For me, I have found that if I am not doing something in order for "Sandi" to get personal glory from it, then it's usually for the "right" reasons. But it hard to get "self" out of the way.

"She does have "stuff" but I am beginning to doubt whether she has the self-awareness or courage to deal with it. How does a WAW ever shift from blaming their spouse and seeing him as the enemy, to seeing both sides of the coin and accepting her part? How did it happen for you?"

That is one of those reasons it takes so long. When you consider how the LBH has to learn by trial & error and all the time used up just for him to "get it", and double that time (at least) for her to wake up, get through the withdrawal & depression, and finally start trying to make your reality better........well you see where I'm going. I think your key words in that quote are "self-awareness" and "courage". By her referring to it as her fantasy, tells us she is trying to escape from the reality around her. When you use the word "courage", that immediately causes me to think one of two things. There is something scary in her reality or she is emotionally frail. I see missionaries in foreign countries as anything but frail, but that's just me.

For me it wasn't so much a lack of courage as it was lack of energy........and hope. Hopelessness is like a death. I see so many LBS here who don't want to lose hope. Well, I had lost hope for my M and I think it was like a death. It didn't happen in a few months. It took years for it to die. It does seem easier when you think about a new one...instead of resurrecting a dead one!

Your question is hard to answer in a few words, but I will tell you that my foundation I had in the church and the teaching of forgiveness was my crossroad with my H. As a Christian, I had to deal with the issue of unforgiveness. I had to admit to myself and confess to God that I had not truly forgiven my H of a lot of things over the past. I had so much i had pushed down that was never r esolved in our M. I'm talking many, many years of deep resentment. Over time, that resentment turned into a monster! It turned me into a bitter and critical person who blames my H for practically everything. So, after coming here and getting excellent advice, I had to make a decision (my crossroad). I had to forgive my H, even though he has never asked me to forgive him.....or admit he had a part in the breakdown of our M. I had to forgive him, for me. I had to forgive him in order to go on. Your W, hopefully, has the same teaching. How long it will take her, we don't know. The thing about forgiveness is it involves our own free volition to actually do it. Some people had rather hang onto all that anger and have another person to blame instead of taking responsibility for their own happiness. (which is another long topic for another time,)

Let me stop here, due to length of post, and I'll start another one. I tend to get sidetracked and end up not answering the actual question.

[sandi2]

One of the reasons I found my way to this board while was a WAW in an A, was b/c something inside me was telling me was in a mess and needed guidance. In fact, I first tried an on-line "Christian" forum, but all I found that particular time was some people cutting up and not giving me the help I was desperately needing. Thank God, I found this site and the right people found me.

Most people who come here believe their stitch is different, but mine really was. (ha). The only thing different was that I was the WAS who was in an A that came looking for help. My H never(to my knowledge) sought out any guidance or support. I even asked him if we could attend MC to help us...and he said no. So, that part made my stitch different from most newcomers who come here.

I felt very much like the minority not only b/c most everyone else were the LBS, but b/c of my age. I was terribly embarrassed to be having all the signs of one who was in MLC but have board members tell me I was too old to be going through "mid" life crises. The first year of posts, I make references to my age quite often in my posts, but I finally got over it. Now I have heard MWD say that people can have the crises that is usually referred to as mid-life at any point. The only reason I mention it now is b/c I wanted you to realize the stage of life my H and I are in....is not or may not be the same as a younger couple. With that said, I want you/everyone to know that no matter how long a couple is M, it does not lessen the pain of an A. If anything, I wonder if it's not worse to have decades of complete trust in another.....and discover one day that the person you thought you knew has completely changed into some stranger.

So, whether it was a MLC or not...who knows. But I have noticed so many LBH'S want to believe his W is having a MLC instead of accepting she is a WAW. Either case is not a good place to be experiencing and it sure can turn lives upside down. So the way or timing for me cannot measure every other WAW or MLC. I do wonder, however, if I had been younger if I would have stayed. I like to think I would have.

As I said last time, my H was not getting tools, like you are getting to DB. I was getting a lot of support here, but after all, DB is advice for the one who wants to save the M. If my H had received the information available here,it sure would have helped! As it was, he really did nothing as far as making any changes in himself or seeing a MC. So I came here to this board every single night. At first I was helped to see OM and this long distant A for what it really was. There were two women back then who were a godsend to me. At times they had to hold my hand just to help me get through the addiction and grieving period of the A. But do you know who really taught me about the pain I had caused? Itwasn't my H telling me, but the LBH'S who came here seeking help and me reading their stories of how their W was acting. I saw myself over and over and knew before many of them what they would soon discover about their W. You asked me how I came to accept my part of the blame for what was,wrong in the M. I have to give a lot of credit to the people who were here mentoring me when I needed it the most.

"She has mentioned more than once not wanting to go to hell for her decision. I thought we were both people who believed in grace and forgiveness (the heart of the gospel) but I am seeing now that maybe she has often "done the right thing" out of fear. I don't know how to respond when she says things like that. I've told her I believe God forgives even when we make the wrong choice, but I don't know what else to say."

Even God doesn't want His children to serve Him out of fear or obligation. He wants us to love Him and desire a relationship with him. If we use that knowledge of Him and His relationships, then we should not want our loved ones to do things out of fear or stay with us b/c they don't want to go to hell. That's why God gave humans the ability to choose. After all, what value does love hold if you are not free to choose if you love.....or who you love? I know I sure wouldn't want my H to just stay out of obligation! I have read some men's stories where I wonder if they really want the W to stay so badly....even out of nothing more than obligation. Wow, that would be pretty awful for both in the M.

Right now she may be staying more out of the sense of choosing to do the right thing over doing what she believes will condemn her. You said she is having a faith crises. Do you mean she doubts what she was taught to believe, or is she having doubts in God's love, or His existence? She must believe He is real if she's concern about her soul. If she feels guilty over her EA, or other things, it could cause her to doubt salvation, as well as many other spiritual areas.

"My therapist suggested I gain more clarity by asking whether she was choosing willingly to spend time together once a week, or whether it was a concession to delay making a choice about leaving or staying. When I asked her if she was choosing it willingly, she said that was a good question that she would need to talk to her therapist about. That was a few weeks ago and we haven't followed up on that. I know that she doesn't want to do this but since she brought it up as an idea would if be harmful if we try it?"

Why would she feel she has to ask her T about it? How long has she seen this T?

"Do you now feel that you have intimacy with your H? Did you feel something like bereavement toward your marriage back then, almost like your H was dead to you? She has mentioned that several times, along with the feeling that once something is dead, it is dead."

We were so young when we M that I actually mourned over the loss of the boy I M a long time ago. I still miss him and could cry right now. But he had to grow up and so did I. Since then, I've had to mourn again. When I say "mourn" I mean that i feel sad b/c I know he and I can't be those two kids again. I have had to mourn over several things that have past and won't come back. Our youth, health, looks, etc. I would be lying if I denied it. But it goes along with all those transitions in life. It was while mourning my youth, health, and looks, that I got into such a mess and it became a crises. Part of it may have been all the meds I was taking and the way different doctors jerked me around on and off with anti-depressants.....but I had free will, remember?

Now we are older and our health is not that great. I really worry about my H b/c his health went on a downward spiral after discovering my EA. Our health problems have been a "challenge" in the intimacy dept. Life can sure be ironic sometimes. Now I suppose we are transitioning for yet another of life's stages.

Back to what,she said about your M being dead and what's dead is dead. Has she ever heard about these actors who reinvent themselves so they have this "comeback"? That's what you have to do in a MR. Unless you have the perfect M! Sure she misses how it use to be. She may dream of a romantic lover. She may dream of herself looking differently. She's unhappy and trying to find something to make her feel better. Maybe going back to school or reinventing herself? But if she isn't getting her emotional needs met, I think a woman will seek it out some way.

I hope I have answered most your questions, but I'll try to wrap it up with these last few.

"Did your H finding out about the EA kind of bust the romance of it, since it was now revealed? Did you resent him even more for that?"

Him finding out did not bust the romance. I did resent him terribly. He would spy and snoop and I thought I nealrly hated him for it. B/c he was his most I attractive when he did this. So was I.

"Did H leave you alone during this time, kind of do his own thing and LRT? Was the depression still directed toward H? "

At first he pursued and I couldn't stand him near me! He would tell me ILY just to see if I would say it back, and get mad when I didn't. Later he felt so defeated, I think he gave up. Told one of our kids he couldn't make me love hi . He was right. My depressions got worse after I ended EA. He knew I had decided to stay in the M before the two year stretch. However, I think he thought I would put more effort into it.

I don't think I could urge you to invite your W into a new MR with you. Timing is EVERYTHING. You can't do things like that, hoping it will enject some kind of enthusiasm into her or help push over closer to you. Of course I don't know her, but thinking as a WAW, I think it would be a big risk to turning her off even further.

You are probably wondering what's a H to do, especially after saying she probably wants romance.

Since my fingers are worn out from the past two posts, I will have to save that part for next time.

[labug]

Wow, Sandi, that's quite a story. ((( ))) It gives me insight into your POV.

[sandi2]

Thank you, Bug, that means a lot to me.

[sandi2]

Him finding out did not bust the romance. I did resent him terribly. He would spy and snoop and I thought I nealrly hated him for it. B/c he was his most I attractive when he did this. So was I.

I made several typos but wanted to be sure I corrected this sentence. My H was his most UNATTRACTIVE when he was snooping and spying,

[cb4697]

Hi Sandi,

I read your 37 item list a few days ago. I which I was doing everything wrong -- puppy dog, asking what is wrong, etc. I have stopped asking and let ask her first. ATTENTION: Everybody needs to read the "37".

She was staying out 7 days a week out to 2am, 3am 4 am+ going to dancing clubs. Once I called the police at 5:30 no phone response, no text response- they started a missing persons report and a BOLO for her car. She has always blamed me that she can't meet friends on her own. Buying dresses everyday. Acting nasty to me. Does not clean up but only for herself. I allowed the late nights because she met fellow female teachers she like as friends. I tolerated this for over a year alone every night. I used to go dancing before the crazy behaviour; however I only wanted to stay to 11:30 ( got there a 7:30 for lesson) also the music got very loud and hurt my ears. I would dance a few slow dances however she is a super dancer so I would read some technical paper inbetween the slow dances. I am a pilot but not a commerical pilot and I need to preserve my hearing, so I wanted to go after the bands start playing very loud music. One Friday she wanted to stay later than I wanted to so she went alone and met up with her girlfriends. Well that was the beginning and I was such a schmuck as I did not say anything for over a year because she had some friends.

Well about a month ago I was fed up and asked what was going on and I got the 10 word "I love you..... Not in love with you" she want to move out and get a divorce. I asked to go to counseling and she said she asked me to go and I said no ( this never happened) she said she asked me many times. I asked what was the reason to go to counseling and she will not say. If she supposedly told me so many before why do I not remember any of them and she can't tell me?

Everything I have read she fills all of the boxes as female mid life crisis. She is their poster child.

She has actually not gone out every night and I have a device I just patented and had a conference that investors were at on Sat. A few day prior she wanted to go and I said ok well Firday night she rolls in 3:30am wakes me up. I got up at 6:00 AM, she wakes up at 7:45 and comes down to take some vitamins and I said nothing and maybe looked dissapointed ( I think she knew I was leaving at 8:30 with or without her) I never saw her get ready so quickly and she as ready at 8:20

We got down there and she took notes for a solid hours. She has no finanical gain from and our prenup states. So what's up? I do not not know to do? FYI a day after I did not ask her MLK day say was doing some editing on another patent and I would leave and go to the garage or out to the front yard and she would puppy dog me.

We sleep in the same bed but there is the (her) berlin wall between us.

Last night she even spoke to me in bed and was nice.

I do not want to takeover this thread however; you could assist both of us. How do I now when she wants to start being a couple.

I am not normally the person the "37" say you need to be. I appear to moving on. (it is my house in my name) and she knows she could be working for another 30 years as a teacher ( what she hates) and paying all utilites, etc that I have done for 20 years ( her money she makes is only for her). I could walk away with 7 or 8 digits on this one. My blubbering fool to ask her to stay is gone and the confidence she sees what I am when doing business sadly I am now using on her. Sandi I really hate this; however she has gone to female hormone zombiland.

Thank In advance.

Charlie

[sandi2]

Thanks Charlie. If you will start your thread in Newcomers, I'll look for it and try to help you the best I can.

[AnotherStander]

Those two posts were really amazing Sandi, thanks as always for taking the time to share your perspective!