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HWA as far as the family saying you should get on with life and never bring it up... well until you've been through a similar experience, it is so hard to empathize with those feelings. I have had friends/family go through similar experiences and I was not very supportive because I did not "get" the amount of pain involved. I probably said crap like move on, forget her/him etc. I actually went back to those people and apologized and asked for forgiveness.

I am not sure what is going on with your sons however I believe they are hurting and don't want to hear any complaining from you because well, they are hurting. Find someone else to fill that area, I understand your need to vent and relieve pressure... I think it's okay to show emotion, just not negative emotion directed toward their mother, because at the end of the day she is still their mom.

It's a hard place to get to however, your Wife's decisions are not necessarily about you. They are about her perspective and where she is right now. Really try to understand her position and how she may be feeling, obviously she is still hurting. Hurting and confused enough to destroy a family and run to someone while still married. Once that place is reached it is easier to forgive, and move forward with life.

Like everyone on these boards, take what you need to own and own it Change what you feel needs to be changed and try to let the rest go. Grow stronger for you because you deserve the best HWA possible.

Keep venting and talking here because we all get it...


You can not change your past, but you can ruin a perfectly good present by worrying about the future.
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HWA,
What a post…I have a hard time imagining what you are going through these days and I am real sorry that you have to. This is more than anybody deserves.


What really hits me in all of this is your R with your sons! That’s what I believe matters the most in all of this.
I do not have the experience to comment that much on this but when I read this it comes out strange.
Originally Posted By: HWA
I asked how is mum? Has she gained or lost weight? Got a haircut etc? So it seems I need to shut my mouth with regards to anything about their mum.

To me it seems like you do not bring up the subject but if they do, then you talk and ask to much…don’t! Next time ask about the movie or what else they might have been doing. Do NOT discuss W with them AT ALL, do not ask questions about her, do not comment on her – leave her be but if you have to state something make it something nice. If they bring her up then listen and only if asked a direct question you should talk, but again only if you have something nice to say. Your sons could be hurting a lot and if you come out as downtalking their mother….well you get the picture! They will take it out on you! They might already be doing that.

I really hope some of the VETs will comment on this one – I do agree with Subguy comments!

I also want to ad that your sons staying at SIL could simply be them trying to avoid taking side. They might be afraid of how your W would interpret them moving to your place. I certainly remember these thoughts when my own mom and dad split up!
They might be walking egg-shells as well!


While this stings I also think there is some positive to it! SIL and friend did open up. They shared. If they didn’t care at all I do not believe they would have done so. It is my hope for you that this honesty can continue – because for the first time in many months you actually now have some kind of picture of what is going on. You got some of the answers that you have been longing for! These answers make it a lot easier to work things. I know they are not saying what you would like to hear and at the same time what they are saying can come out unreasonable. I think SIL and others are defending the family peace to what they believe is the best. They are guarding the peace.

- You now know that most of the people around you, knows about the affair – even your sons.
- You know the family might even blame the affair for breaking up your M and that they know W broke the M
- You know that the family does not like the new W better than the old. That they – as you – see her changes and find them negative.
- You know they think she was nasty against you and that they do not like her attitude

…but you also know that the family has to get around with OW – what else should they do? It is Ws family.

This is her sister talking to you! When I finished writing this it hit me hard that this is not a negative! She is confiding in you, she is trusting you, and she is downtalking her sister, BUT at the same time she is standing up for her family…

Originally Posted By: HWA
Again it seems that everything I do or say is taken out of context.

That’s why you need to do as little as possible and what you do should be positive and nice all the way as long as the family might see it.
I have earlier on spoken my opinion on the tattoo and I can still see why the family sees this like they do. You got clearance on this part to during this talk.

You got a lot of clearance and IMO they did NOT put you down. They pointed out the mistakes you have made and the hurt you have caused during this. They also excused you by telling that no matter what you do – you have no chance of doing right. And then they downtalked W.

HWA, take all of this to the bank and start working it – you already came up with a good list of thing you have to do.

I do hope the VETs will chime in and help you with advice regarding your sons!

I am sorry that you had to go through this but I do hope that all the answers given to you will give you a little peace when it sinks in and the hurt lessens.
F


Me:44 W:43
D7, D5 (S11 from other R)

T: 8y - not M
ILYB: 8. Mar 2013
W moved: 1. Aug 2013
LRT: 20. Aug 2013
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HWA,

Oh boy!! This is a challenging situation for sure...no two ways about it.

Speculating about a person's sexuality is just that...speculation. The main issue is that your W is now with OW. Not too different from 325 DBers here. If your W was with an OM, would that make things different and alter your DBing? Nope...DBing is the same principle across the board here.

Now to the real nitty gritty here. I think there are some valuable takeaways here, HWA.

1) Your sons' seem not to feel comfortable with you nor trust you for whatever reasons of their own. I think it goes back to the tattoo controversy and it just snowballed from there and on. To bury it for once and for all, don't do anything like this again. I was afraid that it would have been a serious setback for you. I do hope you recognize and realize the seriousness of this matter.

My suggestion is to work on your relationship with your sons. Meaning taking a more open and interested approach to them. Ask them open ended questions about their interests, hobbies, dreams and aspirations. Perhaps offer to help with house/car/truck projects as means to bond with them once again. This means NADA, NEYT, NON on W and her situation. Sure, if sons bring up past memories of their Mom, you can say a something positive about the memory.

2) STFU about your W to friends and family...drop questions and fishing for details about W. These questions make them uncomfortable because you put them in the middle and they feel put on the spot. No one likes that at all.

For now, the main focus is to re-build your relationship with your sons. Call them up for chats, perhaps dinner once every two weeks, then have them cover for cook outs. You get the picture, HWA.

Are you able to do this?

And what is the date of your first encounter with W and the OW?

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Thank you to everyone for the replies. Today I go to the solicitor to sign the legal papers to split our assets and take over the homes. I have allowed the W to initiate and control all of this, but the time has come where it has reached the point of legally having to be done. While I understand it is just another step or page in the book, it now leaves only one thing for the W to action. The divorce papers.

Reply time:
Originally Posted By: MileHigh
Was she tired of being hurt by men and made the decision to change?

Not criticizing you for asking - it is something that people are going to be curious about in a sitch like this.

The pain is the same, weather it's an OW or OM for you,

So, we mustn't put them on a pedestal. Also, although we must understand our contribution to marital unhappiness that lead to our partner's having affairs - we must not take on too much of the blame.

Just don't carry too much of the weight of that cross, brother. Let us help you shoulder it.


Yes, in my heart I think the W got to the point she was sick of being hurt by me (her view) and felt that men were no longer going to be part of her life.
Other people might be curious, at initial asking, but then usually come up with someone they know doing the same thing. Yes, the pain is the same whatever the story.
I still continue to put the W on that pedestal. I know I need to take her down, but can't seem to do it. Just like I know I cannot and shouldn't take on all the blame, but it is hard not too, when you have everyone (yes everyone) putting all the blame on me. I don't think I have heard anyone actually say they have said anything to the W about anything bad she has done.
Thank you for the shoulder, it is appreciated and much needed at times. Especially now.

Originally Posted By: labug
Maybe she's bi and while I can imagine it's difficult for a spouse to understand, it doesn't change who she is or was.


And maybe that is a big part of my lack of development or detachment. I cannot change my thoughts, my love, my want for her. Even under all these circumstances.

Originally Posted By: TryingToDo180
Look after yourself, GAL regularly and be the best that you can be smile Sorry to hear that your sons are dreading your phone calls each week, maybe you could lay off them for a while and let them take the first steps.

Stay strong and be the better person HWA smile We're all rooting for you smile


Getting out and GALing, but I really need this 24 hours a day. I come home from a great day doing things and the sitch hits. Not all the time, but it still does. It just makes me want to do something, anything to get her out of my mind. Aargh.
I think the best step for my sons is to lay off them with the phone calls. I will just send a short text every few days. But the biggest thing I will do is no talking about the W for any reason.
Will try to stay strong and be the better person. In a way I still think that I have acted like the better person.

Originally Posted By: subguy
HWA as far as the family saying you should get on with life and never bring it up... well until you've been through a similar experience, it is so hard to empathize with those feelings.
I am not sure what is going on with your sons however I believe they are hurting and don't want to hear any complaining from you because well, they are hurting.
Find someone else to fill that area, I understand your need to vent and relieve pressure... I think it's okay to show emotion, just not negative emotion directed toward their mother, because at the end of the day she is still their mom.

It's a hard place to get to however, your Wife's decisions are not necessarily about you. They are about her perspective and where she is right now. Really try to understand her position and how she may be feeling, obviously she is still hurting. Hurting and confused enough to destroy a family and run to someone while still married. Once that place is reached it is easier to forgive, and move forward with life.

Like everyone on these boards, take what you need to own and own it Change what you feel needs to be changed and try to let the rest go. Grow stronger for you because you deserve the best HWA possible.

Keep venting and talking here because we all get it...




Yes it is hard to move forward, to improve your day to day PMA, when the people you know and talk to (family and friends) just only reply "move on" and "get over it". Even my brother who has been very supportive over the time, has gotten to that point where he doesn't want to hear any repeated stories, and feels the time is up and move on.

The sons problem is hard, and the only answer or change I can do is no talking about their Mum. In all honesty I haven't brought up anything negative about their Mum ever. I tried (the last few weeks) to simply ask about their mother when they mentioned her. Acting like a friendly neighbour: "how is your Mum doing", "Is she staying down her long?", "When is she heading back?". But all I can do is accept that what I have been doing is still taken as a negative, so no more Mum questions. In a way it was trying to show the sons that I still care for her, without giving them the "why has she left" type of talk.

I do understand some of my W's decisions. I suppose in her opinion, she hasn't destroyed the family; she still talks quite happily (in her view, not the families) to the sons, SIL and friends. She still comes down to the city and visits them, spends time with them and does all the activities/social events with them. All she has done is left her husband.

Originally Posted By: Fartiltre
HWA,
This is more than anybody deserves.

What really hits me in all of this is your R with your sons! That’s what I believe matters the most in all of this.

To me it seems like you do not bring up the subject but if they do, then you talk and ask to much…don’t!
If they bring her up then listen and only if asked a direct question you should talk, but again only if you have something nice to say. Your sons could be hurting a lot and if you come out as downtalking their mother….well you get the picture!

I also want to ad that your sons staying at SIL could simply be them trying to avoid taking side. They might be afraid of how your W would interpret them moving to your place. I certainly remember these thoughts when my own mom and dad split up!
They might be walking egg-shells as well!

While this stings I also think there is some positive to it! SIL and friend did open up. They shared. If they didn’t care at all I do not believe they would have done so. It is my hope for you that this honesty can continue – because for the first time in many months you actually now have some kind of picture of what is going on. You got some of the answers that you have been longing for! I think SIL and others are defending the family peace to what they believe is the best. They are guarding the peace.

- You now know that most of the people around you, knows about the affair – even your sons.
- You know the family might even blame the affair for breaking up your M and that they know W broke the M
- You know that the family does not like the new W better than the old. That they – as you – see her changes and find them negative.
- You know they think she was nasty against you and that they do not like her attitude

…but you also know that the family has to get around with OW – what else should they do? It is Ws family.

She is confiding in you, she is trusting you, and she is downtalking her sister, BUT at the same time she is standing up for her family…

They also excused you by telling that no matter what you do – you have no chance of doing right. And then they downtalked W.

I am sorry that you had to go through this but I do hope that all the answers given to you will give you a little peace when it sinks in and the hurt lessens.


See this is where I know I need to work on me so much more. Because some days I feel I don't deserve this, other days I feel that this is like karma coming back, I deserve this for what I must have put the W through.

Yes you are right, the important thing now is the sons. And while any talk about their Mum is positive and meant to be simply care and interest about her. It is not being taken that way. Like I have said before, I just need to shut up and stop talking or asking questions about their Mum.

I do agree, that the boys visiting and staying with the SIL is a kind of neutral ground. But saying this, the SIL tells the boys everything that is going on. More so with what their Mum has done or says. So I do struggle that I come across as being wrong for asking about their Mum, when the SIL can talk to them about her being a lesbian and crazy. Let alone whatever she says about me.

Yes, there are some positives with the SIL and friend talking to me. I do also take that very carefully. Because everything I say or do is also sent back. And it does seem, whether my fault with the way I say things, that a lot of stuff is interpreted wrongly.
It is nice that I got quite a few answers that I was looking for. It is nice (not being nasty) that I can hear them say that the W is coming across as a not so nice person. It does make me feel better knowing she isn't necessarily living this great and perfect life now.
I agree with you that the SIL and friend and simply keeping the family peace. Yes they are simply accepting her and OW (when necessary). For example the OW wasn't invited to Xmas day, but the W stated she (OW) was in the city for a funeral (Xmas Eve?) and it would be nice that she didn't have to drive all the way home (1.5 hours?). So the W ended up inviting her to the Xmas Day. So I do get the feeling that the W is bringing her or demanding her to come to these events more, rather than the family saying, bring the OW to this event.

The SIL and friend did confide in me, but trusting me, no I don't think so. I am still guarded on this, I still expect the SIL especially is just getting ammunition to take back for the future. The friend is different, he is trying to help no matter what.

Yes, I suppose they did agree that I cannot do anything right in their eyes, that I am always the one (compared to the W) who didn't do the right thing. It is right also that they are downtalking the W, but again, this has gone on for quite a while and sometimes (especially from the SIL) seems just her way of trying to get negative stuff out of me.

Again thank you to all the help, the positives for me to focus on and the simple fact of just being here for me. It is very much appreciated and needed.
I do know and accept that a lot of this negative talk from my part is based on the conversation with the SIL and friend. As I have/had been doing quite well for the last few weeks. So I know I can get back to that spot.
A little positive and feel good situation. After finishing the talk with the ex best friend (a good 3 hours), the discussion went to the shipping container that W and I have had in his house since we went country. He wants it emptied and gone. He is a natural hoarder of everything. I explained to him that W and I discussed this way back at the beginning of our country tour, that we were going to give him the shipping container as a form of thanks. We are talking a very good conditioned container, worth probably around $4000. Anyway I told him that I still support that idea, and it has nothing to do with trying to win his friendship back again. But simply something that I feel good in regards to a choice that was made a long time ago. He knows selling that container would make things a lot easier, moneywise for me. Anyway, his jaw dropped, it was certainly something that was not suspected at all. I told him he can have a few days to answer whether he wants it or not, and again, it has nothing to do with whether he chooses to form a friendship again or not.

Wish me luck with the paperwork signing.


ME:51 W:46
M:25
S:22, S:20
Divorced 16/9/15
BD 10/12
W left 12/12 with OW, affair confirmed Nov/12.
Dark since 6/13
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Originally Posted By: Wonka
HWA,

Oh boy!! This is a challenging situation for sure...no two ways about it.

Speculating about a person's sexuality is just that...speculation. The main issue is that your W is now with OW. Not too different from 325 DBers here. If your W was with an OM, would that make things different and alter your DBing? Nope...DBing is the same principle across the board here.

Now to the real nitty gritty here. I think there are some valuable takeaways here, HWA.

1) Your sons' seem not to feel comfortable with you nor trust you for whatever reasons of their own. I think it goes back to the tattoo controversy and it just snowballed from there and on. To bury it for once and for all, don't do anything like this again. I was afraid that it would have been a serious setback for you. I do hope you recognize and realize the seriousness of this matter.

My suggestion is to work on your relationship with your sons. Meaning taking a more open and interested approach to them. Ask them open ended questions about their interests, hobbies, dreams and aspirations. Perhaps offer to help with house/car/truck projects as means to bond with them once again. This means NADA, NEYT, NON on W and her situation. Sure, if sons bring up past memories of their Mom, you can say a something positive about the memory.

2) STFU about your W to friends and family...drop questions and fishing for details about W. These questions make them uncomfortable because you put them in the middle and they feel put on the spot. No one likes that at all.

For now, the main focus is to re-build your relationship with your sons. Call them up for chats, perhaps dinner once every two weeks, then have them cover for cook outs. You get the picture, HWA.

Are you able to do this?

And what is the date of your first encounter with W and the OW?



Sorry Wonka, your reply came while I was finishing off my last reply.

Absolutely there is no difference with my sitch compared to all the others. Just a different sex of other person, but the working/fixing/repairing is all the same. Agree.

Yes I believe the tattoo was the main problem. In my defense, when I got it, I told the boys about the positive reason I got it done. To remind me, not to let things slip by, by finding excuses not to do them.
I did tell the SIL and friend that the other day as well.
I also did spend a lot of time thinking about getting the tattoo, it wasn't a thing done on the spot. But yes, I do agree about how serious the repercussions were from it.

I do need to and want to work more on my relationship with the sons. Again it is hard, when for the last six months, our conversations have been all about them. I have asked questions, both open and closed, about their activities, work and social life. I have offered, while now back home, to help with working on youngest son's van, to help with fixing oldest son's car tyre. I have offered them to come and swim or play pool at my/our house. I think the biggest thing I need to do, as mentioned already, is STFU about the W. Simple as that. While I thought I was trying to show some empathy or care by asking simple questions, they are just coming to the boys as nagging, complaining and demanding of answers.
So that is my next big step to take. STFU.

This also goes for the SIL and friend. I have heard enough, I have had some of my answers I was looking for, found. There is nothing else to talk about. So STFU to them as well.

This is probably the biggest change that will be a positive for me. Can I do this. Yes. Will I do it. Yes. Is there any options? No.

The date of the 21st party is the 22nd Feb. At this stage, I am probably going to go. To be the better person, to focus on being there for the future DIL. If I am not going to talk to my sons about the W anymore, then how do I even think about bringing up the party issue. Bugger the W being there with the OW.


ME:51 W:46
M:25
S:22, S:20
Divorced 16/9/15
BD 10/12
W left 12/12 with OW, affair confirmed Nov/12.
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HWA,

I'd cool off on the texts with W for a while until early February and then send a text to W asking how she would like to handle the 21st party. And offer to help with expenses. Begin the text in an upbeat way saying "wow, our boy is turning 21 toooo soon! " then ask W about working together on the party.

Oh and let W be the one to file D. Let her do the paperwork.

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Wonka, this 21st party is the son's fiancee. So her family is organising everything. My son's was last year. It's ok I understand the mix up. :-)
I will be letting the W be the one to file. Again, my belief and value all along was not to initiate anything at all.

As an option: I was thinking the first text to be around the 28th Jan, when she starts the new teaching class for the year.
I was thinking along the lines of: "Wife, I hope you have a fantastic class of students this year, all the best for a good year. HWA".
Your opinion on the timing?


ME:51 W:46
M:25
S:22, S:20
Divorced 16/9/15
BD 10/12
W left 12/12 with OW, affair confirmed Nov/12.
Dark since 6/13
I"m in a new relationship since Feb 14.
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,319
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Thanks for clearing up who's having the 21st party, HWA. I'm having a hard time keeping track of MY OWN schedule as it is. grin

That line about wishing W a great incoming class sounds fine. As you know, things could change between now to the 28th. If nothing changes significantly during that time, then I think it would be nice to send the text.

One step at a time.

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Thanks Wonka, appreciate the feedback. My next step will be to send that text around the 28th. No expectations.
I will then ask what and how to proceed with the next step.


ME:51 W:46
M:25
S:22, S:20
Divorced 16/9/15
BD 10/12
W left 12/12 with OW, affair confirmed Nov/12.
Dark since 6/13
I"m in a new relationship since Feb 14.
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 833
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Dear HWA,
It was good to catch up with your last few updates. It appears you have a good focus regarding your sons. ("The Five Love Languages" book may aid in your goals to help reconnect a bit more with your sons.) Also, you have the future goal of your Feb 22nd party for your future DIL. Do you have a vision/goal/hope of what would be a positive outcome at that party? I get the sense that you might. smile


Laurie,
Divorce Busting Coach
Contact The Divorce Busting Center at 303-444-7004 or 800-664-2435 if you would like to schedule a telephone consultation with a DB Coach - or email virginia@divorcebusting.com for info.
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