Hi. I will start out by saying I think this forum is incredible. My story goes like this. Been together with my w for 15 yrs married for 12yrs. Our marriage has always been relatively normal great times, rough times but always able to work through the issues. Except for one issue that has been at the root of basically all of our problems I believe. That is children and when to have them. Before we married we went to pre-marital counseling. We both expressed the desire to have children together but never discussed when to start our family. Parents and in-laws wanted them right away. The pressure was evident. My wife agreed that right after M was too soon and we should wait. I agreed with this and we had a great couple years. Vacations, buying anything we wanted all the toys before kids. Then my wife started wanting kids. After running up some debt and not feeling so comfortable financially I told her we could not afford them at the moment in my opinion. This, of course, did not please my wife but we got through it. Problem is this went on for about 5 years. My W is 13yrs younger than me so I kept telling her we had plenty of time and I kept paying down debt in order to be able to start a family.I knew my wife was unhappy about this but I did not see how unhappy. Then something happened in 2010 that changed everything for me and I thought my wife. Good friends of ours had to deliver and bury a stillborn baby. My wife and I both mourned for them. We followed their story together and I thought by us doing this she and I were on the same page finally and I would tell her I was ready for children. Because of this event I knew we had to start trying for kids because tomorrow is never guaranteed and you have to act in order to fulfill your dreams. Only problem is that I was afraid of what her reaction would be if I came right out and said lets have a baby. After all she waited 9yrs so far and she had a right to be upset. I decided that that I would drop subtle hints and maybe she would then ask me to have a baby and I could give her a resounding Yes!! This was a big miscalculation on my part. We went 15 months with me giving hints but no reaction from her. Finally in late 2011 that same couple we had been mourning for had a beautiful baby boy. My wife said can I go off the pill? I said can we wait till after the holidays? She reluctantly agreed. In Feb. 2012 she stopped taking the pill because the doctor said if she was not on the pill maybe her migraine headaches would go away. She came to me and said " I am off the pill so you have two options. First we dont have sex or second go buy protection. I on the other hand thought of a third option but kept it to myself again fearing her reaction. That option was to just let nature take its course and in due time we would be parents. Knowing full well that this was not going to happen overnight I prepared myself for this by continuing to pay down debt and praying for it to happen. Unfortunately it didnt happen. Then in Jun 2012.I could see my W getting frustrated with everything, me, her job, life in general really. Then one night we were have a fight about her wanting to go somewhere but I wanted her spend time with me. Her mother chimmed in and I told her to mind her own business because all she wanted was grandchildren. Well as you can imagine this did not sit well with my W and I knew it. 2 days later she left me and stayed with a relative. I did all the usual begging,pleading and crying asked her to come home. She finally came back after 2 weeks but ask me to move out to my parents house because she wanted back in the house because she felt like a prisoner where she was staying. I agreed but was miserable. I continued to do all the wrong things. Then about a week later my wife became ill and needed surgery. I moved back home to take care of her but slept on the couch because she still was not happy with us. We finally got back to our bed together and I thought this was going to be when we would be blessed with a baby. Her health problems and job switch added stress to her that I knew was hampering our efforts. Fast foward to 5 months ago. She had told me last year that she wished at some point when we were out for the evening instead of staying out till closing time that I would just go up to her and say lets go home and make a baby. So last May something came over me and I did exactly that and it felt so good and so right. Her reaction was not bad but it was not what I expected. She said all our friends are here can we stay. I understood and and said sure. I figured the next morning we could talk about it and we did. She proceeded to tell me that she felt like we were room mates. I knew she was not completely happy with our M but I didnt think it was that bad. I then started to try and fix things. I asked to talk about it she said she couldnt asked her to go to couples therapy she said she didnt feel like it. This went on for a couple months all the while I was still asking her to have a baby with me. Then I couldnt handle it anymore and at the end of June we were at a concert and I was drinking but I didnt think to excess more than I normally would have drank. All the feelings that were bottled up inside me just came out. I accused her of cheating even though I trust her and ignoring me on purpose because the baby was my idea not hers. I knew I was heading down a slope but couldnt stop. She asked me to go to my parents house to give her space and time to think which I did. I started solo marriage therapy to learn relationship skills, I stopped drinking, joined a gym, lost 35 lbs basically started GAL before I knew what it was. I gave her space we text or talked on the phone I went over to the house to see my dog. None of this was really working working so I started contacting her less and less this seemed to work. Because she would then contact me. All this time we still had not talked about the R. Then she brought it up in Aug. and said she wanted a D and I started to tell her everything I never told her about wanting kids for about 3 yrs now this upset her and she kept saying no it is too late. I told her I would regret not expressing my feelings back then until the day I die. But at least I did get to ask her to have my baby before we were separated. So that she knew I meant it and it was not something I said to get her to come back to the M. Now just a few days ago she says we have to get the D rolling but doesnt want attornies involved. She said that she would love nothing more than to go out to dinner with me after this is all over and talk with me and then who knows in a couple yrs maybe if we are meant to be we will get back together. I told her we didnt have to divorce for all this to happen we can have kids, we can rebuild from here, we can forgive each other for mistakes from our early years. All she says is "you are just telling me things I want hear. I dont love you. I dont want to be married to you right now". Please, if anybody can relate to this can you offer some advice on what to do. I have read DR twice already. It just seems like I am so close but so far away from getting her to start working on things. I just want to start the process before she does something she might regret for the rest of her life. She has told me that she still wants a baby. She says she knows after all this is over there is a family out there waiting for her. I kept telling her it is right in front her she just has to take a leap of faith and trust that it will so much better than before. She just says "I wish you would had told me your feelings about babies back then" Any help is greatly appreciated.
Me 47/W 34 T 16 M 13 No kids BD 6/2013 W asked that I move out 6/2013 I moved back and W is upset with this 12/2013 separate beds not much talking Served D Complaint 5/2014 W moved out 9/27/2014
Your wife had lost her feelings for you when you finally decided that YOU wanted kids. I'm sure at that point she was no longer sure you were the man she wanted to start a family with. In reading your story, it seems as if your marriage approach has been to satisfy your needs as they came up, while putting her desires on the back burner. Does a person like this sound like someone you'd start a family with?
I don't point this out to be an a@@, just to point out what may be escaping you right now. Re-read your posts. You sat around for 15 months waiting for her to ask for the millionth time to have a child with her? Really? Your communication together is lacking to say the least. The last thing I would have advised you to do after you moved out was to cut down your communication with your wife as you did. Good communication stands out to me as one of the biggest hurdles you two need to overcome. You need POSITIVE interactions with her now more than ever.
In your other post, you wrote that she says you scare her. Why would she say that? What was the context? It sounds as though if you don't get your way, you essentially bully her into your way of lookingmatbthings, rather than you trying to see things from HER perspective. Perhaps in making your "points", you are very forceful and thus scary to her?
Take some time tonight to list what your wife's most important emotional need are, and which ones you can start meeting (pssst! Put good conversation on that list!). Next, make a list of the bad behaviors you have gotten into the habit of displaying in your marriage (for most of us guys, correcting our wives and showing anger top that lost). Resolve to make every attempt to meet her needs, while eliminating your bad behaviors, on every interaction with your wife going forward.
Your wife needs hope. Hope that you can be a man that will love her, and that can show her future child love. You have to slowly fill her up with that hope by being the man she thought she was marrying twelve years ago.
Nit, Sorry if my post came across as unsympathetic. I know that you are going through an extremely difficult time right now. Welcome to the boards. There are lots of experienced folks on here that give great advice. Breathe, relax, and realize that the situation is still very fluid, and that it can be turned around.
HS, Thanks for responding. You have some very valid points about our marriage. I agree that I have not been the best husband. Bullying my way to getting what I wanted is a pretty eye opening statement for me. I know I was very unyielding in some situations but never considered it bullying. It is very confusing for me right now because I always thought I put my W needs ahead of my own when it came to almost everything but children. I do regret not being a strong enough man just to come right out and tell her I wanted children instead of beating around the bush or when she asked to start a family just going with it since it something we both wanted and money issues can always be worked out. I also know that communication has always been lacking between us. When I started MC I told the counselor I needed to learn relationship skills. For the last 4 months I have worked very hard on this. I have put myself in my W shoes and didnt like how it made me feel. I must have been a real treat to live with at some points in our marriage. Since I started MC we havent had any fights like we used to where one of us would start yelling the other would become defensive and start yelling, hurtful things were said and we went to bed mad with neither of us getting our needs met whatever they were that particular day. Now when we disagree or get upset with each other I have been able to step back and realize at what point I would have become defensive and started yelling before and now I am better equipped to handle the situation in a calm rational way. My W seems to sometime test me on this new found calmness by continuing to yell to get her points across and see if I will engage her. I havent back slide on this effort as of yet. I never wanted to avoid communication with her after the separation. I just thought by giving her time and space and working on myself. It would be a benefit for us both even though it was very hard for me. She now admits that I have changed no drinking at the moment, nicer guy, losing weight but I think she still is leery about trusting that these changes will stick. We have talked about the relationship twice since we separated both times she brought it up. The first time she was extremely upset to find out that I had been wanting children for a long time and not telling her. Also, that is was too late to reconcile even though I was taking steps to improve myself. The second time she was telling me that I was just saying things that she wanted to hear and that she really wished I would have told her about babies sooner. I asked to move back home to the other bedroom for right now and she said we could not live under the same roof. Even though she has mentioned D I dont think she is completely sold on the idea. She said she has feelings for me but does not love me. She knows I love her and that puts me at a disadvantage. I just told her that we could start to rebuild if she could just let me back into the smallest part of her heart for now. If I am not living with my wife how can I try and meet some of her emotional needs? I have asked her out for dinner or to watch a hockey game together she says she appreciates the offer but not now but maybe in the future. Only problem is does that mean after the D? When I know something is bothering her I ask if there is anything I can do to help she says no or it is none of my business. But the next day or next week she will tell me what it is without me even asking about it. Before in the M I would keep asking her what is bothering her until she became upset, which in turn would upset me and make feel unloved when she would not say what is was. It is a work in progress I just hope it can be turned around because I have loved my wife from day one with all my heart. Any more advice would be most welcomed.
Me 47/W 34 T 16 M 13 No kids BD 6/2013 W asked that I move out 6/2013 I moved back and W is upset with this 12/2013 separate beds not much talking Served D Complaint 5/2014 W moved out 9/27/2014
Nit, It could be that your wife is, in fact, testing you. Seeing if your temper control is just a ruse to get her back. Proving to herself that she really should leave you. As I wrote before- control your reaction! Don't slip up and make her case for her!
Why would your wife not tell you what was wrong before? Well, some wives think that you should know and that if they have to tell you, well........... More likely, however, is that your wife didn't like the way you reacted when she told you how she felt. You may have invalidated her feelings ("you shouldn't feel that way", "you're overreacting"), pouted and got your feelings hurt (ie: made it about you), became disrespectful ("look, it's easy, here's how you fix it", implying she's not as smart as you), or any number of other things. Look there first. Think back to some of the things you each said during arguments of the past. Chances are, at some point or another, she's told you why she doesn't like your reactions. Try to recall what she complained about.
You haven't listed what your wife's greatest emotional needs are. What are they? Conversation? Admiration? Affection? You can't meet them if you don't know what they are. Remember that ANY interaction is an opportunity to fill her love tank- even if only a drop at a time. It's also an opportunity to empty her tank with bad behavior. Remember that. The goal is to fill it up as much as possible. The needs of conversation can be done over the phone, or with pleasant emails or texts. Many people fall in love with folks they have never met in person by chatting on-line or on the phone. Don't underestimate meeting a need for great conversation! If you are unsure what "great conversation" means, look it up on the Internet or read a book! Almost all of her needs can be met (at least enough to get her to soften) without actually being in front of her.
HS, My wife's emotional needs are conversation affection and acts of service. I haven't always been great with conversation but over the last year I have tried to be better. It was pretty good up until the room mate speech in May. Then she was more interested in Facebook or TV after dinner than talking. I believe it was to avoid talking about the R and babies. As far as affection I have always loved holding hands in public or even if we are just sitting on the couch at home, kissing in public or private. I always kissed her goodbye when I left. Would kiss good night when I remembered until she spoke up and said why don't you kiss me goodnight so I remembered from that day forward. Problem is she says my love was all encompassing and smothering no romantic love. I told her I understood how she could feel that way and validated her feelings but respectfully disagreed. In regards to acts of service, I started helping with household chores about 18 months ago. She admits to this. I am not very handy so fixing things is not my forte and when I attempted to fix things I would get frustrated very easily and quit or she would tell me I was doing it wrong and I would give up. I was always too stubborn to ask for help from family because I had nothing to offer them in return. This would upset her. Since the separation I have started to get things together to fix up the house. I have made a vowel to myself and to her, but she doesn't always listen to me, I would no longer get frustrated and I would do things that she wants to fix up the house no matter how long it took me. My Family has assured me that they will help with anything I need. Problem here is when I say I would like to come over and do something I get an answer like "how will this inconvenience me". Or "why are you doing this now when I asked you to do it last year. You are just throwing it in my face because we wont be here and you will make me look at it till we leave.". She just told me the other day how lonely she has been the last two years and would cry herself to sleep. I was doing the same thing in the same bed ironically. She had caught me a few times and just fluffed it off. She also said she was lonely after we split. And also after our dog passed away last month. I told her we could rebuild from here and she wouldn't have to feel lonely. I told her all romantic things I loved doing with her running my fingers through her hair, stoking her cheek with the back of my hand, and holding hands. She said I was just saying these things. But she said she knows I heard her because she said she told me these were the things she liked last year. I told her we could start a family and she said "why didn't you say something sooner. I explained I wasn't sure of her reaction but that it is no excuse and I will regret it till I die.
@labug We were both drinking and never heard each other because we were both yelling. I always asked her what was bothering her and she would say "I have to work it out myself that is how I always have done it." I explained to her that I am her husband I was there to help and comfort her. She said she knows that she just has to do it herself. Most of the time I knew it wasn't me that was upsetting her but she still wouldn't open up. I have learned Patience and I am willing to wait. I think she knows this and it is working against me to some extent. Please keep the advice coming if you can it will be a great help.
Me 47/W 34 T 16 M 13 No kids BD 6/2013 W asked that I move out 6/2013 I moved back and W is upset with this 12/2013 separate beds not much talking Served D Complaint 5/2014 W moved out 9/27/2014
Not sure my previous response went through. I have another question though. If my wife thought my love was smothering wouldnt my 180 be to back off for a bit and give her more space? In the last two weeks I texted her about covering our pool. She agreed and said she would do it within a couple days. Didnt talk to her for three days she called but I didnt answer as I was out with friends during that afternoon. I did text her back 3 hours later and asked what she needed though. I think she wanted me to help her but since I am not living there and she is against me moving back home I made sure did not give in. If she says my love was not romantic should I give a "thinking of you" card or something like that? She is keenly aware of my love for her because she tells me about my feelings and how she hasnt done alot for herself because of my feelings for her. I dont know what that means. If we lacked communication and didnt always have "great conversation" would my 180 be to try and have talks with her about nothing in particular? When I try and do this though texts or phone calls most of the time I get the standard one word responses. When she iniates a call or text it seems like it is because she needs something. This isnt always the case some times she calls up about random things and it is appearant she wants to talk so I will try to keep it short. When she does open up about something other than the M that is bothering her. I listen intently and empathize with her and tell her if she needs anything in regards to it I am there for her. Am I doing this correctly considering we need to better communicate? How can I get her to open up more about our M? When I ask her to do something watch a game or movie go out to dinner she always says thanks but I have plans or not right now but maybe in the future. It is very frustrating because through MC I have recognized where I have shortcomings when it comes to my M. I want to correct them but I am confused because I am not sure if I am DB ing correctly or if it is hampering my chances. The last I want to hear from my wife is "if you would have done this you would have showed me that you cared for me and you meant everything you were saying but because you didnt I figured you didnt love me any more". It does seem like she is sending mixed signals. I try and not let it affect me but I would be lying if I said it didnt. I try not to believe anything she says but when in the same breath she says " it is hard not to have feelings after all these years but it is too late and maybe in a few years if we are meant to be we will get back together but for now we have to get past the D. I just wish you would have said something about babies sooner". Or " maybe I need to talk to somebody" when I then bring up IC or MC she backs off. I told her I didnt think we have done everything possible to give our M the best shot at being better than before. She feels like she has. Which is her right to feel that way. One last thing for now. She says she has put herself in my shoes and cant imagine what it must be like. I told her it is tough but I accept the way she feels at the moment but I am 100 percent committed to our M and I will be just fine no matter how it turns out. I then explained to her that I also have put myself in her shoes and didnt like how it felt thereby validating her feelings. She comes back with " You couldnt possibly be doing that because if you were you would be falling apart right now." This just two weeks ago. Then she said have we talked enough for now? I said yes and told her I would finish watching the game then leave while she got her dinner ready upstairs. She said that made her uncomfortable. I asked why and she said because she thought I planned on staying there and moving back in right then. I said no but I would like to move back sooner rather than later. This upset her. Did I screw up the R talk we just had by telling her this? Please any thoughts will be appreciated.
Me 47/W 34 T 16 M 13 No kids BD 6/2013 W asked that I move out 6/2013 I moved back and W is upset with this 12/2013 separate beds not much talking Served D Complaint 5/2014 W moved out 9/27/2014
Sorry about not writing in paragraphs. I will start doing that. Thanks again for the advice.
Me 47/W 34 T 16 M 13 No kids BD 6/2013 W asked that I move out 6/2013 I moved back and W is upset with this 12/2013 separate beds not much talking Served D Complaint 5/2014 W moved out 9/27/2014
If my wife thought my love was smothering wouldnt my 180 be to back off for a bit and give her more space?
Regardless of what she thought before, you've got to give her time and space. She's clearly "done" when she talks about proceeding with D. Nothing YOU can do will change that, it's a journey SHE must make. You work on the only thing you can control- YOU. And give her time and space to take her journey. Maybe at the end of her journey she'll pick you again, but it's going to be a long, long time before that might happen.
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I think she wanted me to help her but since I am not living there and she is against me moving back home I made sure did not give in.
That's mind-reading. You don't really know what she wanted, try not to build all these point-counterpoint scenarios in your head.
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If she says my love was not romantic should I give a "thinking of you" card or something like that?
No. What may have worked to improve the R before does not work after BD. That kind of thing is the worst kind of pursuit and will just drive her farther away, because she does NOT feel that way towards you. So anything like that will just remind her how far apart the two of you are.
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If we lacked communication and didnt always have "great conversation" would my 180 be to try and have talks with her about nothing in particular?
Strive to be the best listener possible. Let her talk and don't agree/ disagree/ bargain/ plead/ reason/ negotiate with her. Just validate her feelings.
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When I try and do this though texts or phone calls most of the time I get the standard one word responses.
It's a strong hint that she doesn't want to talk to you. Honor her request. Let her initiate.
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When she does open up about something other than the M that is bothering her. I listen intently and empathize with her and tell her if she needs anything in regards to it I am there for her. Am I doing this correctly considering we need to better communicate?
Empathy and listening is great, but don't tell her you're there if she needs anything, that sounds too much like you're offering to fix her problems. Men are fixers, women don't want fixing though. They want validation.
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How can I get her to open up more about our M?
You absolutely don't want that now or for the next few months. Anything she says about the M is going to be bad news, so don't EVER bring it up and keep your fingers crossed that she doesn't either.
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When I ask her to do something watch a game or movie go out to dinner she always says thanks but I have plans or not right now but maybe in the future.
Stop asking, that's pressure/ pursuit.
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when I then bring up IC or MC she backs off.
Don't bring it up! That's pressure too.
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I told her I didnt think we have done everything possible to give our M the best shot at being better than before.
That's pressure too. Really, this kind of stuff is just pushing her towards D. I think you need to get a whole lot more familiar with Sandi2's 37 Rules. Read them several times a day at first, then daily for as long as it takes to commit at least the intent of them to memory.
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I then explained to her that I also have put myself in her shoes and didnt like how it felt thereby validating her feelings.
That is absolutely not validation, in fact it's the opposite. Do not EVER tell someone you understand what they are going through or what their feelings are. It belittles their emotions. It's OK to tell them you understand why they feel that way, that is validation. Understand the difference?
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She comes back with " You couldnt possibly be doing that because if you were you would be falling apart right now."
Right, like I said she felt like you were belittling her. Her reaction is "how dare you presume to know my feelings!" Let her tell you her feelings, just keep asking her questions about how it makes her feel, how intense the feelings are, etc.
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I said no but I would like to move back sooner rather than later.
Did you move out? Shouldn't have done that. The WAS needs to make those decisions and live with them.
Keep posting in small increments, you'll be off moderation soon and then thread updates will be instant. Good luck!
