What's New: We have a big conference next week where we are supposed to hash out a settlement and it's making me really anxious. This may be one of the very last times I'll see her and I've been doing a lot of reflection. I've just confirmed with my L that I will actually be able to address her directly for the first time since February.
Need Help: I have some questions for you guys, especially the vets and any former WAWs that might be reading this.
I know that as a LBH, there's nothing I can say to change things. Her fog has to lift on its own. But I know my wife and I'm worried she may assume the worst about at me and think that I hate her, that I'm trying to screw her with the settlement, etc. I've seen her do this with her friends and co-workers where once they are on her bad side, she reads everything they do and say in the worst possible light.
1.) I really feel like I need closure and I need to apologize one last time, this time directly to her face at the conference, and let her know I don't hate her. Is there any point to this? Will it only harm any future hope at R? Divorcebusting is so hard when the WAW's complaint was not enough pursuit / engagement! What I am thinking is of saying is something along the lines of: "I am sorry things have come to this, but if this is what you need to find happiness then I understand. I know you're upset that I have a lawyer, but I didn't have a choice given the circumstances. I wish we could have done this amicably like we discussed at the start. Please know that what I am asking for in the settlement is not meant to punish you for leaving, it is just a business transaction and I am trying to look out for myself." Yes? No?
2.) My therapist (and myself) think there may have been an OM at some point for various reasons. I know the common wisdom on the internet is "once a cheater, always a cheater." Do you guys think this is true? I don't know if I do or not.
3.) How can I forgive myself for throwing my marriage away? I honestly don't know how.
Hi - I wouldn't call myself a vet and I'm not a waw, and also my wisdom is debatable... But I saw your post and hope my thoughts help a little.
#1 I liked your first sentence and I think you should stop there. All the following sentences read to me as if her interpretation of things is bugging the cr*p out of you and you want to make her understand things as you see them. She has a right to her interpretations and you can't control what she thinks. You can only control your own actions and do the right thing regardless of how it might affect her opinion of you. Some here would say you're being controlling, by trying to explain until she interprets things your way. And the "I wish" sentence implies blaming her and being defensive. I don't think you'll win points with anything but the first sentence, and I'm not sure what you'll gain in terms of taking the opportunity to speak your mind if what you choose to speak is a bunch of self-justification and finger pointing. The first sentence sounded peaceful, honest, loving, and accepting even though it isn't what you had hoped for, which sounds like just the message that would feel good to have communicated for yourself. That's my 2 cents.
2. I don't believe anything that denies the power of a person to change if they want to. I also think in a lot of cases the existence of an OP is a symptom of problems that were more within the marriage. In my sitch I have sometimes suspected but I really don't care and it really wouldn't affect my actions, because I know our marriage wasn't good. It doesn't excuse an A, it just makes an A way less relevant to me than doing the work to be better at connecting and loving. Do you have things you're focusing on working on to become a better relationship partner? Or is "once a cheater always a cheater" a way to absolve yourself of responsibility and move on without seeking personal growth?
3. Did you throw your marriage away? Or was it two people's actions and decisions that killed it, one of whose you have no control over? Do you mean how can you forgive yourself for being partially responsible for problems that led to her leaving? If that's the case, I believe, and found in my own case, that you can forgive yourself if you can learn from it and change. Good can come from bad. In my case, I could feel it's hard to forgive myself for getting lazy and taking my marriage for granted, and where does that bitterness and disappointment get me? Or I can learn why I did and practice daily being more intentional and more grateful for what I have, and practice daily applying my priorities correctly, so I can move on as a better person. Then my past faults at least got me somewhere good. Do you think that could apply to you too?
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
Hi - I wouldn't call myself a vet and I'm not a waw, and also my wisdom is debatable... But I saw your post and hope my thoughts help a little.
#1 I liked your first sentence and I think you should stop there. All the following sentences read to me as if her interpretation of things is bugging the cr*p out of you and you want to make her understand things as you see them. She has a right to her interpretations and you can't control what she thinks. You can only control your own actions and do the right thing regardless of how it might affect her opinion of you. Some here would say you're being controlling, by trying to explain until she interprets things your way. And the "I wish" sentence implies blaming her and being defensive. I don't think you'll win points with anything but the first sentence, and I'm not sure what you'll gain in terms of taking the opportunity to speak your mind if what you choose to speak is a bunch of self-justification and finger pointing. The first sentence sounded peaceful, honest, loving, and accepting even though it isn't what you had hoped for, which sounds like just the message that would feel good to have communicated for yourself. That's my 2 cents.
I understand what you're saying, sort of, but I have to admit it angers me that you are calling my behavior controlling, defensive, and self-justifying. I have had no control in anything pertaining to our R since the BD. If I am defensive it is because I have been accused of horrible things I did not do. Is it really self-justifying when she makes false accusations and then is shocked that I have a L?
As I type this, I am realizing that it has made me very angry that these words have been thrown at me, and maybe I haven't come along as far as I would like. It just hurts when you have been painted as an irredeemable, villainous brute for six months without a chance to defend yourself or to make amends.
Should I really just say nothing at this point? I really don't see how i'm going to come out of this meeting looking worse to her regardless of what I do or don't say.
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2. I don't believe anything that denies the power of a person to change if they want to. I also think in a lot of cases the existence of an OP is a symptom of problems that were more within the marriage. In my sitch I have sometimes suspected but I really don't care and it really wouldn't affect my actions, because I know our marriage wasn't good. It doesn't excuse an A, it just makes an A way less relevant to me than doing the work to be better at connecting and loving. Do you have things you're focusing on working on to become a better relationship partner? Or is "once a cheater always a cheater" a way to absolve yourself of responsibility and move on without seeking personal growth?
I'm trying to seek personal growth, but I'm not sure exactly what my goals should be. I've kind of lost touch with who I am. I've been taking better care of myself physically, something I didn't do in our M, and I'm taking steps to fight my depression and anxiety that took a horrible toll on our M. I feel our M suffered from huge external stresses that I did not know how to deal with properly.
I take responsibility for being a lousy husband, but I don't think that excuses an affair.
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3. Did you throw your marriage away? Or was it two people's actions and decisions that killed it, one of whose you have no control over? Do you mean how can you forgive yourself for being partially responsible for problems that led to her leaving? If that's the case, I believe, and found in my own case, that you can forgive yourself if you can learn from it and change. Good can come from bad. In my case, I could feel it's hard to forgive myself for getting lazy and taking my marriage for granted, and where does that bitterness and disappointment get me? Or I can learn why I did and practice daily being more intentional and more grateful for what I have, and practice daily applying my priorities correctly, so I can move on as a better person. Then my past faults at least got me somewhere good. Do you think that could apply to you too?
I think it was mostly my fault, but she even said post-BD that she was to blame too. I am learning and changing from it, but I cannot find it myself to forgive myself. I feel like I threw away the best thing that even happened to me and will never find happiness again.
Thanks for the reply, it's given me some things to chew on.
I'm surprised how strong your reaction was. I'm sorry that my words made you feel angry. It sounds like it is very important to you to be able to say your piece, to get "on record" about how wronged you were, regardless of whether it has an impact on W or not. In all likelihood, at the point you two are at, it won't have any positive impact on W.
I have had a long tendency to look at what benefit there is from saying something, and to say "what's the point". That's not necessarily good, though it works for me.
I read your words, and wasn't in any way condemning you, but was just pointing out that I felt "what's the point" about a lot of your words that you were thinking of saying. I'm sorry that hurts.
It sounds like you are doing a lot of work to rectify the depression and anxiety that contributed to your marital problems. It sounds like your lack of forgiveness for yourself (for what, being depressed?) is part of the depression. You did what you could with the tools you had at the time. Hopefully you are developing better tools and coping skills. Getting through this is a test of them. Rising above, taking care of you, and intentionally looking for and building a better future is part of fixing what you did wrong in your marriage, can you see that?
Throwing yourself under the bus and acting like no one in the world will be a better match for you than a woman who also had such poor coping skills that she cheated on her marriage...sounds to me like more of the same for you. Allowing negative thinking to hinder you.
You have so much potential. You cannot control your W. It's not your fault that she cheated, she has free will. But you need to find yourself, and grow from this or it will have been a pointless waste.
BTW I think it's really cool that you expressed your anger the way you did, instead of attacking me. You did better than I have done in my own thread when challenged.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
I'm surprised how strong your reaction was. I'm sorry that my words made you feel angry. It sounds like it is very important to you to be able to say your piece, to get "on record" about how wronged you were, regardless of whether it has an impact on W or not. In all likelihood, at the point you two are at, it won't have any positive impact on W.
I can see how you might think that, but that's not the goal of what I wanted to say to her at all. While I am very upset at the way I have been treated, the goal of what I wanted to say was to try to make things better, not to get on some sort of record as being a victim. I can see how the second and third sentences in my proposed statement could be interpreted as blaming though.
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It sounds like you are doing a lot of work to rectify the depression and anxiety that contributed to your marital problems. It sounds like your lack of forgiveness for yourself (for what, being depressed?) is part of the depression. You did what you could with the tools you had at the time. Hopefully you are developing better tools and coping skills. Getting through this is a test of them. Rising above, taking care of you, and intentionally looking for and building a better future is part of fixing what you did wrong in your marriage, can you see that?
I wish I could. I think I have made big strides and if, by some miracle, we had a second chance, things would be very different. But I see taking care of me and building a better future as a selfish and solitary act and nothing to do with fixing what I did wrong in my marriage.
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Throwing yourself under the bus and acting like no one in the world will be a better match for you than a woman who also had such poor coping skills that she cheated on her marriage...sounds to me like more of the same for you. Allowing negative thinking to hinder you.
Yes, I have a problem with negative thinking and it was one of my W's complaints. I thought I was doing better, but this conference has me backsliding hard. I don't know that my W cheated on me, so I am really uncomfortable with her being called a cheater.
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You have so much potential. You cannot control your W. It's not your fault that she cheated, she has free will. But you need to find yourself, and grow from this or it will have been a pointless waste.
This is something I've been hashing out with my therapist. It's my negative thinking again, but sometimes I feel like my whole life has been a pointless waste.
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BTW I think it's really cool that you expressed your anger the way you did, instead of attacking me. You did better than I have done in my own thread when challenged.
Well, attacking was my initial response, but I realized you are just trying to help and probably didn't mean it as I took it. I got pretty hostile with some of MrBond's comments in the past, so I guess I'm improving.
I think your W knows because you have already told her. My opinion is that you are looking for the same perfect works that will turn her around... the same words that all of us LBSs are looking for.
They don't exist. Seriously.
I hope she does. I told her a long time ago and a lot has changed in the sitch since then. I know those words don't exist, but wouldn't it be nice if they did?
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I compliment you on the weight loss. I have lost 90 pounds in the last year and a half. I know the positive effects it will have on your life.
I have been following your sitch for awhile. I don't always say anything because other people give you great advice and I would just be parroting them.
Thanks, I'm grateful for all the support I can get. I read yours as well, I just feel like I have very little practical DB experience to offer.
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I understand the depression you went through. I don't know exactly how you feel nor will I pretend to. I just understand it. I went through my own stuff.
Unemployment is a bitch. Looking for work is not a lot of fun. It is a job in itself. People who have never been through it don't understand. It is a blow to your ego. It weighs on your psyche. It creates self-doubt. BTDT.
Yes, it sure does. But right now, I can see the light at the end of the tunnel!
Well, she apologized for being, in her words, "a bitch." But then she said she was sorry that she didn't fall madly in love with me. She asked if we could settle soon and said this is "killing" her.
So, still rewriting history and still wanting a D... But, she apologized for something and communicated with me for the first time in months, so that's something.
