My old thread went over 100 posts and was locked, so here is my new thread.
I mulled over what to name it, and settled on "Becoming Patient Man". I had my UN changed to "PatientMan" early on because I wanted it to remind me of who I want to be every time I logged on. Patience is a attribute I have to work on and cannot get complacent with, but I realize it is worth it because it is who I want to become.
Originally "PatientMan" was about how long I can endure the suffering of my sitch (basically just the "patience" part suffixed by the fact that I am a man), but this week I have turned yet another corner. I realize I also need to focus on the "Man" part of my UN. I need to reclaim who I am at my core, with of course applying what I've learned throughout this journey that has lasted almost a year and a half now. What self attributes I want to keep and improve on, and what attributes I want to change or get rid of.
In short, I am on a journey to be a "Patient" "Man", knowing I have to focus on each one of those words in their own right.
Thank you to all who have contributed to my thread. Your opinions have been taken very seriously and given a lot of thought.
--- Update to my sitch:
sandi2's comments have really hit home with me, to the point I realize I have probably made a HUGE mistake waiting this long to take the step I have taken this week. BUT, I cannot change the past. I need to learn from it, but not dwell on it.
I have reviewed the divorce decree several times and am sending back my revisions to her today.
She has definitely noticed my lack of attention to her and is responding in kind, but is still amicable. She seems to currently be reciprocating the much reduced communication between us. I suspect she thinks it's because of the finality of D approaching, which is not the case, but I really don't feel the need to correct her false assumption right now. I was betrayed more than I am willing to allow, and I simply won't tolerate that person in my life if she is going to treat me this way. I am still cordial and in no way rude, but I discuss the kids with her and then wish her well for the day, and that's about it. I *think* she is trying to reciprocate my actions in order to give me a taste of my own medicine, but it isn't bothering me at all. I'm having trouble being around her or even looking at her right now.
One of my for sure action items was that post-D the ML would stop, but I am going to cut that off now. I am not a backup option and her temperature checking of me is going to come back a different temperature the next time. I am not okay with her continued transgressions, and as much as I enjoy ML, I am not giving her that piece of me anymore.
*I* have recognized my mistakes and have worked/am working diligently to improve them. She doesn't realize she has a lot of work to do to rebuild trust with me. I don't even think she's admitted to herself how much wrong she has done.
I am not bitter. I will not be rude or petty or small or immature. I will create a life where *I* can be happy, a life with my daughters. I will be a good man, a good father, and a good Christian.
A relationship is a two way street. I am willing to work on my side, but if she is unwilling to work on hers then I will drop the rope and move on with my life. Being there for her no matter what is not healthy for either one of us. It has not worked with regards to reconciling our M, but it also has not worked to make either one of us happy. So I am 180'ing that.
She has still been relying on me for emotional support, and I realize and accept the risk that taking this support away may push her towards OM. As I stated, my line was crossed. The behavior is unacceptable to me.
Thanks again to all who have helped me tremendously, both with your opinions, experiences, and just stimulating my own thoughts with different perspectives. I'm sure I'll have more updates to come as things unfold.
Make today great!
-PM
M:12y - BD:12/11 - D:6/13 - 4Ds
"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy." -MLK Jr.
Quite a few emails back and forth today regarding the terms of the decree. I'm just standing my ground with what I think is right and fair trying not to come across as a jerk. Some of the questions she's asking, though, just make me realize she doesn't really "get" what it's going to be like. Part of that is my fault, though, as I always handled the bills and family budgets, and she was always fine with letting me.
M:12y - BD:12/11 - D:6/13 - 4Ds
"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy." -MLK Jr.
...I believe in tough love in most every case. But every case can't go dark, b/c of children in the home. But the H can still detach himself from his wayward wife. If he doesn't detach, he stands an excellent chance of repeating the terrible experience.....if they stay together.
I tried to read most of your thread to see where you are. It seems pretty clear to me that your W has been getting the best of both worlds. Oh I know she cries at times, and I know you still love her, but if I could open her up and allow you to see inside her mind/heart, I think you would be shocked to see how much she's changed from the girl you M. When a woman gets involved (emotionally or physically) with any man who is not her H, it does something to change her. First off, she knows it is wrong, and therefore, she begins to hide it. That is just the beginning of the terrible deceit.
I am not sure how it all came about, but just looking at most of the page on this thread, it seems pretty certain where you are currently in your MR. She wants to be taken care of financially, and you being an honorable man, will support your children, but she isn't quite upfront with you.....is she? It's b/c one act of deceitfulness can easily lead to another.
You have been confused over being friends b/c she doesn't treat friends as bad as she treats her H. True, and let that be a lesson well learned. She wants you for the times she "needs" you. When she wants to cry or vent, or need you for the kids. You keep saying you will "be there for her no matter what", but I think that's where you need to reconsider.
At the rate things are going, she will get whatever she wants in the D, and maybe keep the A ongoing. If so, then she thinks things will continue with the two of you as they have been these past few months. You being there for her.......even though you say she can't treat you just any old way......she has, hasn't she? IDK the whole story, so I could be missing something, but from what I've learned, the WAW who is in an A usually doesn't reach the point of wanting to R as long as the LBH is always there for her. (This is not the same as continuing a R with his children. However, she can use the kids as a tool....as well as he can.) In the successful R that I know about, the W has to recognize or experience loss. That loss has to be tied in with the life she had with her H. If he always makes himself available (being there for her no matter what), then what will she lose that she wasn't willing to give up? And if she began to wonder if she really had lost something from him, she'd just test him to see if it was true. Intimacy? Sure, why not! Just b/c a couple is D doesn't mean they can't still have sex once in a while.
I don't mean to sound cocky or cruel. I just want you to get your eyes open. What you've been doing hasn't worked. You need to do a complete 180. What do you have to lose? Her friendship? It's not a friendship. It's a usedship. frown
Oh, I almost forgot about the question you had asked me from Alan's thread.
I believe the less you explain to the WAW, the better. Remember in DR when Michele talks about the importance of having that mysterious element? Well, if you don't how, just start by not telling her everything. In the past when you both were working on the M, it was important to explain your reasons, etc., but everything.....and I mean EVERYTHING has changed now. You must stop thinking of her in terms of being your W. Besides, it defeats whatever you may wish to accomplish.
Learn to give very vague answers to anything regarding your feelings, actions, details of events (especially if it is asking "who with"), or future plans. wink Keeps life more interesting.
Bare in mind that you are not required to give her answers about anything other than questions regarding her children (and anything else the court so orders). Don't try to see how big a jerk you can be, by giving snide remarks, or with a bitter attitude, etc. At the same time, you can't slide too far the other way and think that by telling her everything is going to help bust the D. It is to your advantage not to reveal everything you know right now.
Drop the rope, end the personal contacts (expect regarding kids only stuff....and keep that to a minimum), and stay away from her. Start a life of your own and be determined that your happiness will not be codependent on her. You have to reach that point before she will ever be serious at R.
So a complete 180 would be:
1) NOT being there for her no matter what (not much at all, under the current circumstances) 2) Further detaching: do you suggest going as dark as possible (given we have 4 Ds)? This week I have begun to go very dark, though I suspect she thinks it's because the D-talk has ramped up when it is really about my disapproval of her actions and decisions (essentially my line has been crossed). 3) No sex 4) If she asks about my recent changes, be vague (even though she may be under the wrong impression as to why I've changed my behavior) 5) No hanging out with her (which is very natural to both of us) 6) Don't ask her about her day/actions/events/feelings
Any other suggestions? You seem to have me/us pretty well pegged, so I appreciate your input...you have no idea. Those 6 are not a problem for me (except maybe #3) and I basically started implementing them last Thursday, so it's really new to her.
Obviously I will be cordial, calm, collected, and confident when interaction is necessary.
Maybe one other clarifying question is: if she does corner me and want to talk to me/vent, do I listen and validate? I am under the impression that I am creating distance and at this point I need to NOT listen/validate, but exit the situation in a polite way. Since DB'ing began, I have been listening/validating as best I can, but since I'm doing a 180 now, it seems like the time to stop. (This may seem an obvious piece of "not being there for her", but I do just want to be clear.)
Is there ever a time I should tell her why I've changed so she understands it isn't the D (divorce), but the other D's: deceit and disrespect? If she forever thinks it's because of the divorce progression then she will be missing the point entirely...maybe. I don't mean I'll start the conversation, but I can certainly see myself saying something along the lines of what I posted before (and below) if I've given her the vague reply several times and she keeps asking:
Quote:
"Look...you have engaged in behavior that I said was unacceptable to me, and so I don't care what you do any longer. I have decided that I am going to live my life....and I'm going to do what makes me happy."
-PM
M:12y - BD:12/11 - D:6/13 - 4Ds
"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy." -MLK Jr.
Wow, each day seems to get worse for me. I am not intentionally doing this, but I don't want to talk to her or even be in the same room with her right now. I am not very good a hiding this set of emotions and I know I am coming off as being "off" if not a little distant/rude. I just don't know what to do right now. I am so disappointed, betrayed, and repulsed. I HATE feeling like I am being mean in anyway, but as soon as I am around her I just want to leave. I am not being snippy or saying mean things, I am just very quick to end any conversation she engages me in, and it's very obvious. She's reaching out and I just don't want any part of it right now. I really don't like feeling like this, but maybe this is what has to happen to begin to show her what she is losing. Or maybe I'm messing it all up and fueling her fire. Ugh.
She's asked me again what is wrong, and I said "nothing." The natural response for her is going to be that she will eventually stop reaching out to be nice to me if I keep acting this way, I just don't know how to be around her right now. This has nothing to do with the divorce moving along and nothing to do with my grandmother passing away two days ago, which I haven't told her about. It's all my feeling the sum of all the betrayal by her and I can't pretend it's okay anymore and that we're going to be best buds.
M:12y - BD:12/11 - D:6/13 - 4Ds
"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy." -MLK Jr.
Quite a twist to my sitch since my last visit on Thursday. I'm too tired to type much right now, but there are certainly some things to report, such as me quasi turning the tables on her.
Finals week coming up too. Eyelids closing...
M:12y - BD:12/11 - D:6/13 - 4Ds
"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy." -MLK Jr.
So as I previously posted, W has noticed I have been distancing myself from her. (This is not a strategic move...I have been having trouble being around her and I find this particular set of feelings almost impossible to hide.) I turned my phone off early Friday morning for an appointment and didn't turn it back on until 9:30'ish. I usually call my D's every morning, and usually she'll call me after dropping off all the girls at school to let me know the schedule for the day.
She apparently got extremely worried. Called and texted my cell phone numerous times. Called my office. Called my receptionist. I didn't really think about not telling her about my appointment or turning my phone off (maybe I should have), but I let her know I was okay via text once I turned it back on after my appointment. Once she knows I am okay, we text:
W: Well I feel like a total [butt] for calling you every morning on my way to work. Me: Why W: You need space
I let 30 minutes pass before I hit send on my reply, because I wanted to be very careful about what I said:
Me: I didn't want to say anything like that I wasn't 100% sure of so that's why I haven't yet, but yes, I need space. I am having trouble being around you right now...really for the last few weeks, and it seems to be getting worse as things unfold. I'm processing a lot of information and it's changing things. W: Information?
...followed immediately by a call from her.
She pressed me for what I meant by "information", but all I would say is that I realized my line had been crossed and that I didn't think it was productive to get into specifics. She asked things like "I thought you wanted to be friends?" and said some other things that displayed to me she was slightly confused. I was stoic, and I could tell by the time we hung up that she was crying.
Later Friday I'm over at the house about to take D7 to gymnastics. W pulls me into the bedroom to talk and she is very upset. She appears to be in a panic mode of...that fear of losing me [I know the look...I've been in her shoes]. She's saying things like:
-"I know I am all over the place. One day I feel one way and the next day I feel the opposite." -"I want you to know that I DO love you." (She hasn't said this to me in a really long time.) ...
...Darn - I will have to finish my thoughts later. I need to leave now to spend the evening with my 4-D's!
M:12y - BD:12/11 - D:6/13 - 4Ds
"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy." -MLK Jr.
-"Sometimes it's 11 o'clock at night and I just want to call you and tell you to come over, but I know that isn't fair to you and I know it isn't helping me be independent." -"I DO care about you." -"I am so sorry for all of this." -"I feel like I'm making all the wrong decisions."
It reminded me of that desperate "I'm losing you, what can I say to fix it mode" that I have been in so many times before. It was mostly her talking, but things that I said were:
-"I am not going to be waiting around for you to make a decision anymore. I can't promise to be here waiting." -"I am not a backup option." -"My line was crossed and I have been doing a lot of thinking about what *I* want and what is "okay" with me. -"I am making choices that make ME happy." -"My focus is shifting to myself and my life with my girls."
At the end of it she asked for a hug. "I know you need space, but can I just have a hug?" Of course I gave her a hug.
I don't know how she's going to react from this. The two extremes are 1) that it might make her realize what she's losing and jolt her into wanting to reconcile at some point, and 2) she could get angry and convince herself that it is just me leaving her all over again and she is glad she got out. I'm not going to allow myself to waste my energy worrying about her reaction, I'm just going to be me.
That was really all I had to finish off what happened last weekend, but it WAS difficult for me after the fact. To see her in such pain and despair and have every cell in my body wanting to jump into action to help, and I just stood there as stoic as a stone. I can get off track and begin to second guess myself, but I recognize it quickly and can usually get back on track just fine.
It's what needed to be done. What we were doing wasn't working in any fashion.
An update from last night. We had been watching TV on Thursday nights together, but this week I again went to leave after tucking the last kid into bed (the oldest). She didn't get home from work until after I had begun tucking the kids in, and she changed the channel to her show that we typically watch together while I was upstairs with the girls. I came back down to make the youngest a "baba", saw the TV show that was on and began making smart-alecky comments about the show/actors/plot, etc...it's what I do to entertain myself: just make fun of whatever is going on. She was laughing and remarked "it is so much more fun watching this with you here than by myself."
I finished up and headed for the door, and she got up to walk me out. We briefly talked about the next day's schedule (today), and then she asked me for a hug. Again, of course, I gave her a hug. She began weeping.
I took the opportunity to reenforce what I said last Friday. She again talked about how she is fearful of not being able to make it, not being okay, feeling like she's never going to be okay, telling me she is back to crying 2-3 times per day. She kept apologizing for crying and said she really did just want a hug and didn't expect to break down right then.
I also took the opportunity to remind her to pray, even if it is just at night before she goes to sleep. I know what it feels like to feel alone and not be able to feel God there, but He is and He wants you to talk to Him, and He can help if you let Him. It's worth a shot.
I also told her that I knew she would make it just fine, that she WOULD be okay, and that *I* believed in HER, because - after all - "do you think I would let you just have my children if I thought otherwise?"
Regards,
-PM
M:12y - BD:12/11 - D:6/13 - 4Ds
"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy." -MLK Jr.
Wow, it sounds like she's really responding to the DBing. But from what I've read, it sounds like you're on the fence now about whether or not you want tokeep trying to restore your M. I wonder, are you feeling this way because of what you've been going through since BD? Maybe you don't want to set yourself up for a disappojntment? Or are you letting the fishing line play out, waiting for the hook to set?
Odd, I've been focussing so much on LRT, I've got no clue what to do if the WAW starts to respond! Keep us posted, please.
M41 W42 M 12 T 15 S10, D9, twin Ds 3 1/2 BD 1/2/2013 Living as roommates Working on D agreement w. mediator 5/13
I am willing to work on our marriage...absolutely, but it would be a slow process for me...almost like starting completely over. For me, she has to prove to me that she WANTS it and that I'm worth it to her. I have been working on me for a year and a half - I have made great strides, but I am still working and I've learned that this work should never stop.
A relationship is a two way street, and she has to do her part too. I thought I could love her enough for the both of us, but I can't. It isn't possible. It takes two. At times I didn't want to hear or believe that, but it's true.
She originally told me, 17 months ago, that she needed space. THIS is space. And it isn't out of anger or spite or anything petty or small or ugly. It's what she asked for and it's really what I think we both need to mend ourselves, as individuals, first.
I am in no way playing games with her or trying to manipulate the situation. I have had difficulty being around her for about a month now, with it escalating as April went along. I couldn't hide this set of feelings, and it turned into what is happening now.
What sandi2 was posting to others and then what she posted directly to me clicked perfectly at the exact time I was reading it. It was just what I needed to read/her at exactly the right time. She probably doesn't even realize how much what she wrote meant to me, but I can't thank her enough for smacking me upside the head like that. Selfishly, I hope she keeps up with me and makes sure I'm on the right track, but if not, she has done more than enough already.
My W is very determined to be independent, and she has convinced herself that this is the only way out for her. So whether or not this "works"...I have no idea. I know that it hit a "Reset" button on our relationship. It showed her that I'm not waiting around for her like a lost and starving puppy. That I'm figuring myself out. That I'm back - me, the man she fell in love with, not the awful caricature I became - and I'm a better man than I was before, and I will NOT be going back. There are no steps back for PatientMan here. What is behind me is to learn from only; it is not a place for me to visit.
If she isn't attracted to that or if I have done too much damage for her to forgive me as a spouse, then I will go on with my life. But *I* took control of *me* back. That was important.
No hook. No fishing line. You have to be real. You have to get there. To steal a really good lyric:
"Well, I looked my demons in the eyes laid bare my chest, said 'Do your best, destroy me. You see, I've been to hel1 and back so many times, I must admit you kind of bore me.'"
You have to go through it. There's no faking it.
I would JUMP at the chance to reconcile.
INTERNALLY.
Then I would remember everything and realize this is going to take a lot of work. But it, and she, is worth it.
M:12y - BD:12/11 - D:6/13 - 4Ds
"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy." -MLK Jr.
"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy." -MLK Jr.
