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A Message from Michele
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Re: 25yearsmlc Reply [Re: stilllookingup] #2319958
02/04/13 08:50 PM
02/04/13 08:50 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 678
Jacksonville, FL
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InAPickle Offline
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Gotta add my 2 cents.
I seldom visit these forums.
(Honestly they are a reminder of a lot of pain)
My thread is all but dormant now.
But when I do visit, I always read 25's comments.
And still learning from them.


Me 53 XW 50
M 18 Years +2
S14 D19
Bomb 10-24-10
Served 1-27-11
Mediate 4-21-11
Civil D Final 6-2-11
No church anullment
"A man is not finished when he is defeated, he is finished when he quits."
Re: 25yearsmlc Reply [Re: Navyguy] #2319967
02/04/13 09:09 PM
02/04/13 09:09 PM
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back56 Offline
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I add my thankful heart to this list for your help and input and constructive empathy 25. I do not post much here, but have benefited enormously from your comments and from our direct conversations. Your insight has been incredibly helpful when my own vision has been clouded with pain and angst to the point I could say I am metaphorically "legally blind". We know "rose colored glasses" do us no good whether whether we wear them in an attempt at unrealistic optimism or the abyss of despair. There is nothing like the voice of someone who has been in the trenches and knows the land mines to dodge. Thank you for your efforts on our behalf.

Re: 25yearsmlc Reply [Re: 2chiquitos] #2320010
02/05/13 12:42 AM
02/05/13 12:42 AM
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Posts: 13,511
CA- now East coast
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Thank you all, again! I had STARTED to post the summation of what I think I've learned here, months ago. But this thread makes it easier to keep it a little more concise.

I meant to say this the other day, but got a bit caught off guard. Here it goes.

When you get the bomb, I always say "look in the mirror", b/c we have to, and because it's the only way for us to grow from this ordeal. But there are times that you get deserted and it's not you.

I'd argue that It's impossible for a WAS to have "no reason" to leave, but on occasion, the reasons have nothing to do with you.

What then?

You'd STILL have to ask yourself, "what now?" So yes, you'd STILL be best to work on yourself, GAL and move forward---as part of, and separate from--DBing.

You'd still know that the WAS has his/her reasons. Reasons do exist. But they are not always your responsibility to repair, or within your ability to do so anyhow.

So then, the remaining issues are how can you navigate through THEIR turmoil, and or contain it. Most of the original GAL etc applies then too.

But I didn't mean to imply that the LBS "always" bears responsibility. I'd say the vast majority of the time we play a role in the problems, and sometimes, SOMETIMES when we read posts from LBSers here, we see that in fact, they caused their spouse to flee. On occasion, I've wondered what took their spouse so long to leave.

I hate saying that, but it can be true. My own loving kind hilarious younger sister, was deserted by her h. Though I hated how he handled it, I have to admit, I knew he was miserable. My siblings once talked about their m, before the BD, and we did not see what he got out of the marriage.

My sister revolved around him, giving up all her hobbies and outside interests, which he DID mind. He once told her (she admitted this years later) "You don't do anything!" NOTE TO SELF--if your partner ever says something like that, consider it a red flare into the universe. You need to do some changing ASAP.


Once married, she never worked, they never had a child (the job would have "taken from h time" and she wasn't into working hard, to be honest. She wanted to be rescued and taken care of, actually.)

But the child thing always puzzled me. She would have been a good mother. Maybe her h knew down deep he did not want a child, with HER, (b/c he had a child after their divorce). ANYHOW, his leaving her shocked her, but did not shock any of us. WE could not tell her that then, obviously. Even after many years, she still doesn't really get it. She blames OW. But he looked miserable before he had OW....anyhow, I digress.

Those folks can be the hardest people to help. It must be devastating to feel responsible for being left. I did not feel responsible for my h's fascination w/living on the tundra BUT I was still devastated.

And I was/am responsible for how I handled his choices, and how I raise our children.

We are living the lives we created. If we don't want THIS life, we have to change it. Can't wait for the other shoe to drop, or the spouse to "wake up", or the lottery ticket to work...

For ladies, the days of a prince rescuing & taking care of us, are long over. Gentlemen, a woman's love is not guaranteed if you simply don't hit her, get drunk or cheat. Marriage is easier to get out of and while that's mostly bad, the upside is we tend to want more out of our marriages. And sometimes, that's good. Sometimes it means both partners work to help the other self actualize and act in each other's interests and then both, together, are more than they'd be as two separates.

In some ways, we're all on our own. But instead of letting that frighten us, we have to see it as empowering.

IF YOU TO GO A MARRIAGE COUNSELOR / individual counselor OR therapist, OR you have a conversation w/your WAS


and you feel attacked, I suggest you give thanks.

Why? B/C that is valuable "intel". And if some problems originate w/ YOU,
then you are Not powerless. You CAN DO something about it.

As I said earlier, it's "vindicating" to hear that your spouse is being selfish. Its momentarily satisfying to hear or feel that you are "right". But it also means YOU are powerless.

If you are doing nothing "wrong", and they still want to leave, THAT'S BAD NEWS my friends. It's the worst possible news actually.


I have a brother who went to mc w/his wife, and they BOTH went to "change the spouse's behaviors" and I knew then & there they'd end divorced, and they are divorced and to this day neither sees anything on THEIR end that they'd change if they had it all to do over again.

Learn to take the "negative" (I call it constructive) feedback for the golden nugget it is.

If there are changes you need to make, thank God someone told you!

Now you have a road map. Read it carefully & don't dismiss the hurtful stuff. It's often the most useful. if it's someone else's baggage they're projecting onto you, make damn sure you're right about it, & then ditch it.

But if it's something that truly bothers your WAS, then changing that, is going to be more easily noticed.

Moving on....

Losing the scorecard...The Story


I grew up living near a family of 7, and the dad was a COL in the Army, former POW for years. I wanted to ask him about his years as a POW and he seemed willing, but his wife would interrupt or change the topic. Back then, I assumed it was off limits to protect him. But I was wrong.

The COL was fun loving and told great stories. My parents found him charming and so did we. He helped my h get into the Army Officer Corps and was very kind to us.

Evidently, the COL had had an affair some years before they moved near us.

You may ask, How did I, a 17 y/o girl, know he had an affair years earlier? Oh, b/c his wife wanted everyone to know it. Their kids knew it all! So This would mean he wasn't a real hero. After all, he had hurt HER deeply.

At every social gathering, @some point in the evening, a thinly veiled snarky comment would come out of her mouth and he'd just take it. I never saw him fight back. And trust me, if I picked up on it, so did everyone else. Maybe she wanted it that way but it seemed cowardly to me then. I recall thinking, "just bitch at him already, stop using your NOT so secret code".

So evidently the affair was admitted and he chose to give up OW & stay w/his family.

But I think his wife made the worst of all choices. She stayed married & stayed miserable. She never forgave him, & in effect, she held it over his head the rest of his life.


Only one of their 5 kids are married today, 30 years later. Some legacy she passed on.

She COULD have learned & modelled forgiveness in a marriage, and redemption, and courageous love. That's what their children could have learned.

But to them, mistake are not forgivable...they are 'retained" on a ledger, and even if they wanted to forgive, they'd have to learn how b/c it's not easy for those of us who never saw it growing up.

And the irony is that even though we knew affairs were "wrong", all we knew in that present day was that HE was fun and kind, and SHE was bitter and mean.

She never dropped her scorecard. Ironically, it hurt HER the most, in the eyes of the children and in her h's eyes. Who would want to be with her then?

I think if you KNOW, really down deep, that you cannot get over your spouse having an affair, (and you only know if you try OR consciously decide not to try)

and your spouse has one,

then get out now. Either fix the marriage to restore it, or end it.

Don't prolong the agony, especially if there are children, b/c the damage is generational.

A few times I've wondered if an LBSer is here to stay married & stay miserable b/c there's NO talk of forgiving. It's all about the "conditions" they want to impose on their spouse.

Though boundaries and transparency are givens, you get the feeling, now & then, that there are a few too many punitive elements in their "boundaries".

Just food for thought.

Thanks for listening.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
Re: 25yearsmlc Reply [Re: 25yearsmlc] #2320017
02/05/13 01:25 AM
02/05/13 01:25 AM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 224
USA
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Dm45 Offline
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I also agree with all the praises here to you 25, and thank you from the bottom of my heart for the advice you've give me so far.


Me 46 W 43
S 21 D 18 S 17
M 22 yrs
Discovered OM 9/10/12
W moved to sister's 9/15/12
W moved to OM 9/27/12
Tried to DB until 7/13
W filed 10/7/13. Did not serve.
I counter filed 12/2/13.
Re: 25yearsmlc Reply [Re: Dm45] #2320041
02/05/13 03:07 AM
02/05/13 03:07 AM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,695
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JuneReN Offline
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Thanks to you also 25, I am moving over to MLC soon and you an inspiration in the things you say, advice you give and experience you have. I cannot say my H will be back, but I learn everyday how to be okay with that smile

Re: 25yearsmlc Reply [Re: 25yearsmlc] #2320042
02/05/13 03:10 AM
02/05/13 03:10 AM
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 642
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FloydMan Offline
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Posts: 642
Oh boy, I get this. But now what? Was I too punitive? Was she not transparent enough? Or somewhere in the middle?


M17 yrs.
me49
xW47
d15
d11

BD1-Jul/11(Affair found out)
Therapy 9 months (tried 2)
BD2- May/12(sep)
Court Jul/13 - I got 50/50
Sold home - Aug/13
Court #2 - Dec/13
Court#3 - Apr/14 ... She lost again
We settled.
Re: 25yearsmlc Reply [Re: FloydMan] #2320072
02/05/13 06:05 AM
02/05/13 06:05 AM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 206
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25yearsmic,
You know what, I never got to break the secret code behind your name. Is it 25 years of mic, is it 25 year old smic ? I can't seem to figure out what this name is...

Enough lol...

About "the worse possible situation" you describe above, I'm afraid I'm in that case. Without wanting to play victim again, there is little fault in me, and WAS still wants to leave. I wish she did reproach something big to me. But she always remained very vague about her reasons, making it super difficult to know what to address and do next.

Anyways, more on this on my thread, I'm here to give big thanks obviously for all your help, and wish you blessings from above for the pain and relief you bring to people here,

Bruce.


Me:34 ; W:28
Son: almost 2.
Married : 14 March 2009
DBomb : 18 June 2012
Separated since Jan 2012 (different countries)
Same country and city since July 2012
Re: 25yearsmlc Reply [Re: Big Bruce] #2322530
02/14/13 08:03 PM
02/14/13 08:03 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,511
CA- now East coast
2
25yearsmlc Offline
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Originally Posted By: Big Bruce
25yearsmic,
You know what, I never got to break the secret code behind your name. Is it 25 years of mic, is it 25 year old smic ? I can't seem to figure out what this name is...

Enough lol...

About "the worse possible situation" you describe above, I'm afraid I'm in that case. Without wanting to play victim again, there is little fault in me, and WAS still wants to leave.

Bruce, I cannot say I agree with this^^ take on your situation, but I answered on your thread. I hope you'll see that you are NOT powerless in your situation, even now.




I wish she did reproach something big to me. But she always remained very vague about her reasons, making it super difficult to know what to address and do next.

Perhaps she discussed it with you but you did not hear her or listen. Come to think of it, she wrote you a letter in which she mentioned the "talks" you had in the past. So issues were discussed before she wrote you the letter.

So I think if you dig deeper, you'll see that indeed she did tell you. Also, you yourself admitted in your posts, that you ignored her when she was "in a bad humor" and she had just had a newborn baby, whom you resented & chose to ignore b/c you were 'waiting" for him to be older so you could then play with him. Those are your words Bruce.

I suspect if you really look hard, you'll see that you did play a role in her departure.

What I really hope is that you see that in a way, that^^ is GOOD NEWS...b/c you don't have to wonder about it happening again & again...

b/c you will behave differently and you will make different choices in your next r, with her or with someone else. Surely you will not repeat the same mistakes.

And that means your chances of reconciling and staying reconciled, or building a better m with someone else, are much higher when you see your role in things.



Anyways, more on this on my thread, I'm here to give big thanks obviously for all your help, and wish you blessings from above for the pain and relief you bring to people here,

Bruce.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
Re: 25yearsmlc Reply [Re: 25yearsmlc] #2323647
02/20/13 08:27 AM
02/20/13 08:27 AM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,511
CA- now East coast
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25yearsmlc Offline
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I wanted to add something that has come up with our family that I didn't expect.

As h and I pieced towards reconciliation and continued, we took steps towards a full recon. But we seemed to take for granted that our children would agree with all of our choices. Turns out, not so much.

As we faced life's curve balls (which don't stop just b/c you reconcile) like h's mom's terminal illness, we got some new tools at Retrovaille.

That was excellent for us, btw. Things felt STRONG and as good or better than the "old days." Time passed.

Though I felt we were working on things, truth be told, mil's illness and death took a lot of focus off our rebuilding the m.

That's not necessarily bad, (b/c taking the temp of the R at all times really stinks and isn't productive either) but--

In retrospect, I think taking the focus off our r, and putting it onto MIL, caused some processing of things for our children, to be delayed.

Time passed...

Recently I notice our youngest d, now 15, deeply resents h. Mostly for "being gone all the time" and or "so controlling when he's here".

He was deployed to the Middle East and came back at Christmas. D15 adds that time to our sep and his MLC. And he works out of town during the week for reasons that are not clear to her (and those reasons were Not to last this long).

So in her mind
, he has racked up a lot of away time. To HER it's a rejection and his misplaced priorities.

I cannot say she is "wrong" b/c that is her perception. But h has pension concerns, which she does not have...which I partly share with my h. NOT fully, but partly. I get where she is coming from and where he is coming from.

When he's home, d15 smirks and rolls her eyes often. WHen he's not home, she bad mouths him to me, and I defend him.

She does not see this as loyal of me, so much as me being "weak", which is NOT what I want for my d's to see or believe about DBing!! She also thinks I'm in "major denial" about h. That is a fav phrase of hers.

Furthermore, the older kids seem to agree with d15's resentment of h, although they see me in a different light & manage their feelings beter. (They "get" DBing way more than d15).

Yes I realize a lot of this is d15 being 15 y/o... some of it is archetype behavior from a text book, I swear. Luckily, she's witty as he!! and her humor helps diffuse things, AT TIMES...but she can be mouthy as heck to h.

She's not very different than I was at that age. But my dad was a raging alcoholic. Compared to what I grew up with and put up with, I'm amazed at her attitude.

Here are my issues/concerns/realizations.


Never mind a reconciliation or a marriage that never rocked. --

What is the role of the co parent when conflict arises between one parent and the kids?

I know it varies with age. Truly young kids need not see conflict or fighting between their parents.

Later on, I think seeing conflict is fine- IF conflict resolution is also witnessed.
Otherwise we only teach the crappy part and nothing about solving problems. This IS a solution based approach, remember?

But aside from that, this is what I've come up with so far and I invite other's thoughts.

Assuming the children are old enough...

I'd say it's Not our role to fix things between others. We can't.

We can facilitate, as we would with children's fights and conflicts.

But with the conflicting parent, facilitating won't work well, if everyone isn't on board. That is a goal itself. Getting everyone to agree to work on their r's.

The parent Not in conflict can stand back and let the cards fall where they fall. MAYBE with adult children, that's the path...maybe not. I have a hard time believing we should just let things fall apart but we do have to remember what we actually can help make a difference in, and what we can't.

I think we have a duty to assure our children as best we can, of both parents' love. I don't think that ends with age.

(I'd say that in all cases, really.)

H seems to feel alienated from them when he's one on one. And he IS alienated, And HE created the alienation, I know this.

I'm torn by the constant need to defend the kids to h, and h to the kids.
Please Note, they involve me in their complaints and disputes!

SO Here is what I realized.

When we reconciled, I assumed the forgiveness work I was doing, and the rapprochement H & I experienced, would "filter" down to the kids...

that they'd be on board OF COURSE...

Subconsciously, for me It was as if THEY had gone to Retrovaille with us...made the same breakthroughs, had the same insights and awakenings.

But that isn't a given at all.
How those concerns affect a long term marriage is what I'm discovering.

Other realization:
...I can suggest h take each d out to lunch/dinner, one on one, monthly. I believe that would help IF H could handle it. But he resents feeling alienated "for so long" b/c I think he feels he is being punished. I'm mind reading, btw and I concede this.

With the youngest, boundaries are needed to show respect to each parent, regardless of her "opinion" as to his/my/our choices. Seriously, she just has to deal with them. When she's with her dad, she describes it as AWKWARD. Well, okay. I get that. But so what?

Finally, now I wonder if my 91 y/o mother worries about me and my 8 siblings.

Good grief, this does not get easier without conscious effort to let go and let God.


well, enough rambling for now. Suggestions/insights? Any couples out there that resolved conflict between ONE parent and not involving the other?

How did you keep it from affecting the marital relationship? How do you defend without looking like a sheep?


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
Re: 25yearsmlc Reply [Re: 25yearsmlc] #2323651
02/20/13 11:02 AM
02/20/13 11:02 AM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 13,279
NY
Cadet Offline

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Cadet  Offline

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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 13,279
NY
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Truly young kids need not see conflict or fighting between their parents.
Thanks for sharing 25.
I think your D15 is forming her own ideas about relationships and who does she mirror?
The best thing you can do is keep your own relationship strong, wear YOUR oxygen mask first and that will help to PAVE the way for her.
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Finally, now I wonder if my 91 y/o mother worries about me and my 8 siblings.
I have no clue what she thinks although you as the apple more than likely doesnt fall too far from the tree.
Your mother is the most together 91 year old I have seen.
Heck she still goes ziplining.
Are you asking this about whether you should worry about your daughter?
In 40 years when you are 91 then it will be a relevant question.
Right now......well what do you think?

Yes I think you are correct that some of this is normal for a D15.
On the other hand, the part about the denial.

What parts of that are true?
What can you control about this and change?

I think that your husband needs to be involved here and you need to make these decisions together.
Not unilaterally.

Well, my .02
Keep discussing.


Me-67, D34,S33
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