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C, while I agree with your statement that the two of you may never agree on what happened, I'm not sure that's something that can be tossed off so casually, like remembering what happened at a casual social event. There will always be times that you don't agree on something. Heck, my H and I often don't agree on what happened 20 minutes ago.

Your exW shared some very personal feelings about her interpretation of your actions during the D. She basically saw a very dark side of you. Now maybe you see it very differently, I understand. But I believe most of us are not very good at holding a mirror up to ourselves and our behavior. Your exW is doing that for you.

Here's the kicker for you. If you don't at least get to a point where you understand what actions of yours caused her to feel that way, I'm not sure she'll ever feel like she can trust you again. My H has a quote taped on his mirror that reads, "Feeling heard is so close to feeling loved that few people can tell the difference." If your response to her is "I'm sorry you felt that way, it wasn't my intention," though it may be cordial and self-sharing, it will not address her fear. All that will translate to is that you did what you did and you would do it again because you don't see anything wrong with it. Giant red flag to someone that is already skittish. Especially since this is on top of her already feeling like she tried to get through to you within your M, yet you didn't hear her and see anything wrong with your actions then either.

BTW, I'm not judging you. I wasn't even there.

My H and I had an issue 3 months into our M. He let his unlicensed D drive my expensive sports car and then told her and her sister not to tell me. We have talked about this incident ad nauseum over the years, even in counseling. He keeps defending that it was only about a 1/2 mile, and that she actually had her permit. I keep saying that it was his deceitfulness that was the problem, that if he didn't think there was anything wrong with it he wouldn't have tried to hide it, plus that he taught his daughters that it was okay to disrespect me and my things. My point in all this is that I don't believe to this day that my H understands what he did wrong, and has done similar things since and lied about it to evidence that. I simply can't believe that he won't do it again.

If your exW doesn't believe that you hear what you did "wrong" in her perspective, then she has no reason to believe that you won't do it again.


Me:49 WAW H:59
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C

This is a tough issue. I completely agree with Crazyville in some regards.
- We should hold up a mirror and look at our mistakes, understand how they hurt our spouse so we can try to avoid them in the future. I think Crimson has done an amazing job since his stich started of looking at his role in the R and tried to fix and change his mistakes and issues.
- We should not only validate, but understand the deep hurts our spouses feel and try to re-establish their trust when re-building the R.

Yet, what Crimson's wife is bringing up re. the D can be a different situation. I believe that Crimson was acting in good faith to protect himself and his son's best interest and not being vindictive when he was fighting for 50/50 custody, to not be kicked out of his own house and to not be stuck with 10k of his wife's lawyers fees.

I am going thru the same issues with my own D. Everything I do, my H sees as me being vindictive and out to hurt him. I know in my heart, my L my family and those who know the situation understand that my position in the D is 100% based on what I believe is the best interest of my kids. Yet my H just doesn't agree, because HIS opinion of what is in the kids' best interest is different from mine. The difference is that I don't think my H is being vindictive (even though a lot of people believe so and have tried to convince me of that).

I think that D is not a time to try to appease your spouse or go against what YOU believe is best for you and your family just to try to make your spouse look at you in a good light. Chances are they wouldn't even if you gave in on all their demands because they are in a state of mind where they just want out, they want what THEY perceive is the best, they are on the defensive and they feel guilty on top of that.

If I remember correctly, Crimson himself also doubted his wife's intentions during the D based on what she was asking for. So it is not just her.

We usually don't discuss our intentions or motives with our spouses when we are divorcing, we are all protective and defensive (isn't the first piece of advice we all get here to "protect ourselves"?)

So I am not sure that there is anything Crimson could have done differently to change her mind then or even now. He might try to validate and try to understand her until the world ends, and try to convince her that he truly acted in good faith (and I believe he did), yet he might never get her to see things from his perspective.

I want to be clear - I do believe that Crimson (and all of us) should listen carefully to his wife's feelings and complaints and work on those that he CAN do something about. I just don't think it applies to the D.

To me, that state of mind during the D, makes it really, really difficult for her to see any goodwill or good intentions in him. So what is the point to continue re-visiting it?

Sometimes we need to maturely agree to disagree, LET IT GO and choose to be happy and not right and I think both Crimson and his W should do so re. this particular issue.


Me & H: 44
D7, D6, S3
Together: 20y, M: 17y
EA: 11/13/10, Sep: 12/23/10
EA becomes PA: Spring 2011
H filed for D: 09/06/12
D Negotiating began 2/15
OW seemingly gone on 3/15
Still negotiating D






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Thanks CV.

I hear what you are saying -- and I agree, but here is where I am stuggling a bit.

Over time I have owned up to a lot of things in our marriage that I used to deny and/or not see. I have learned not to question the reality of what my XW experienced....her feelings are her feelings - period. I get that 100%.

However, when she insists that something was in my heart and intentions - and those things absolutely were not there I feel like I am being dishonest if I nod my head and say "yes...that's what I was feeling/doing".

CV, I was never overtly hostile, mean, or "vengeful" as she put it. It just wasn't in my heart. I wanted to save my marriage and ANY of those things would have worked against me....big time. I remember deliberating on every word in my e-mails to make sure that they didn't come across as mean or angry....and she still took them that way.

She claims that I fought her on everything...like not letting her take things from the house that she was entitled to, custody time, etc. -- I wasn't fighting, I was defending myself and I never did it in a hateful manner. Sometimes I wonder if her expectation was that I would lay down and let her and her L trample all over me and just take anything that they proposed. When I stood my ground on things it was viewed and "vengeful". I tried to tell her Saturday (calmly) that I was just trying to make it day by day back then and that I didn't have the energy to be spiteful....I really didn't.

Do I have to say that I was even though I wasn't? If I say "I can see how you see it that way but..." she seems not to really take it in. It almost feels as if she WANTS me to say I was out for blood and out to hurt her....I just wasn't.

Again, I have no problem admitting to bad things about myself or my actions -- I just struggle with this one.

What do we do when our respective realities on such a core issue are so out of synch??


Crimson

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Agreed, KG.

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No, C, I don't think you should ever admit to anything that isn't true. The problem boils down to whether or not she believes you're being honest and authentic, or if you're just defending your actions to make yourself look reasonable. Then, if and when she does believe you, she has to determine if she is open to reconsidering her perspective with new understanding. Or if not, if that is something that she can work with or not.

People will always have different opinions, and they'll have a hundred reasons to support it. Abortion is a great example. One person will believe that abortion is completely viable because it's the woman's body and she should be able to decide. The next person will say that it not just her body, it's a living being inside her. The first person will argue that it isn't a being until it's born and can live on it's own. Etc., etc., etc. In the end, even though both people fully believe what they express, and fully understand the other person perfectly, their viewpoints are incompatible.

In the car incident I mentioned, my H would still claim *to this day* that in his heart at the time, he didn't really think it was any big deal. My H has even done what you said, and admitted that "what he did was wrong," but he's done similar things since multiple times. And to this day, I don't believe his declaration of his heart intention, because I don't believe that you hide something or lie about it if you don't think it's a very big deal. But even if I throw in the towel and accept that he really didn't think it was a big deal, then I have try to factor into my M life with a man that considers his actions and lying about it no big deal.

The bottom line for me is that I know he will likely do something similar again, and lie about it again. And I simply find that unacceptable.

You two at least don't have to try to factor D behaviors into M, and that might be your foundation for agreement/understanding/compatibility. In other words, it simply might be irrelevant (but don't tell her that. smile )


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In other words, she can't expect you to treat her like your friend/comrad when she has set herself up as your opponent by filing for D. It simply isn't fair for her to judge your D behaviors against M behaviors.

Unfortunately, it doesn't sound like she realizes that and she's melding it all together.


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I'm curious, C, would either of you consider just living together? I suspect it might conflict with some of your religious beliefs (though that's a whole debate in itself as to whether God recognizes a legal D over a spiritual vow...) but it might solve her dilemma. The question is if she could consider you being a good H in spite of being a bad exH? Living together w/o a legal M eliminates any risk of her having to deal with you in a D situation again. Yet it would open the door for considering a "risk free" reconciliation. And it wouldn't need to be forever.

I know, this is little off-the-wall. I've had a lot of those lately. Probably need some sleep. smile


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"However, when she insists that something was in my heart and intentions - and those things absolutely were not there I feel like I am being dishonest if I nod my head and say "yes...that's what I was feeling/doing"."

C, I think here^^^^is where validation comes into play. It doesn't mean that you are being dishonest just validating what she thought, felt and saw at that time.....If you defend what she says she will become defensive... It's called rolling with resistance. Think of it as mental health martial arts....You are aknowledging what she is saying but not necessarily agreeing. She doesn't need to know that u are not in agreement, just that you hear her. Hope that makes sense.


M 53
D 20
Separated 6/22/11 moved out 10/24
Together 26 yrs
Married 16
W Filed for D 7/21/11
Served 9/6/11
D final 8/28/12

“Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be.”

John Wooden





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Re: the non-linear nature of piecing, Crimson -- re-read what I wrote on the first page of this thread

Originally Posted By: bustorama
Keep living in and enjoying your current reality. Always. Have faith in the attachment between you, and nurture it lovingly, especially when she approaches you.

...

If you sense her showing hesitation or uncertainty about piecing at any point, back off. She may feel scared or worry that her feelings aren't quite where she wants them to be, etc. That's all fine, let her be, and let her re-initiate leading at the pace that works for her. At one point with my W, I had backed off completely again and stopped calling her because she said it just felt so strange and weird (cause I had come on a little too strong at one point). She called me back in a couple of weeks saying, "What you're just giving up? Please make a counseling appointment for us. Give me a chance at least! Don't leave me!"


What I mean by that is if she says she feels weird, unsure, closed, whatever, accept it and act accordingly.

"Yeah, I hear you, you feel closed off and wished you felt differently. That must be hard for you, I totally get that, xW." And then give her a bit of space until she reaches out to you or warms up to you (as she did)

When she brings up ways she felt that you attacked her and were oppositional to her during the D, DON'T DEFEND YOURSELF and if you don't agree with it, don't agree with it. But, like Rick said, VALIDATE IT. Really get down that you can validate without agreeing. Practice it and live it.

"God, xW, I can only imagine how hard that must have felt for you, to feel that I was your enemy and out to get you. That must have been really hard for you and with everything falling apart. I can see how you felt that way, especially with all the fears and feelings that go with divorce. I hear you, I was right there with you. Let's not go there again."

Really wrap yourself in her feelings and how she felt. It's not about or you about you defending yourself. Anger is hurt. And hurt is hurt. She doesn't want to feel hurt by you again. Get in there with her and comfort her when she opens up about how she felt.


Me-53
W-49
D22,D18,D15
T-Since-12/2001
Married-9/2004
She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Piecing start-04/2011
Now-together
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You can absolutely validate her feelings without negating yours, Crim. what Busto said is excellent advice. I had a convo with H that turned a bit accusatory in email ( you know this when the person says, " I am not angry, but..." Lol)
I validated, agreed but also stated why my behaviour was that way. I acknowledged it must have been hard but also let him know that this was my view of things.

He acknowledged he was being a bit of a dickhead and explained that his head and heart basically weren't seeing eye to eye lol!

So, I think you have to throw the validation and acceptance out there and see if that is what she needs. Or does she need you to open a bit further? You can always back off a bit if not. As you said, she wasn't really hearing you anyway. My guess is you were getting a bit defensive. She doesn't necessarily want to see your side, she is telling how she feels. You just have to find a way to be good with acknowledging her feelings without swallowing the validity of yours.

For me, it's being authentic with all I say and feel.

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