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My W is a wonderful person. Smart, excellent judgement, great body, completely selfless, tireless homemaker, boundless self-control, people gravitate to her for advice. But as the years have gone on, I've grown to feel more and more left out of the picture. It's to the point where I feel like the only thing she wants from me is to be left alone. So that's what I've done, I've tried to stay out of her way. Live my own life without imposing on hers. Carry out my responsibilities, do what's asked of me, and get out of the way. And that's left me feeling isolated, unneeded, unwanted, and wondering why I'm still here.

She says she loves me but that's not what I feel. Sex has become a once a month encounter if it can be squeezed into the commercial break. Trying to find out the daily activities and plans is hit or miss because she's always busy or distracted. Any deeper conversations just don't happen. We have few common interests. She's so tired that anything I ask of her seems like another burden to saddle her with.

But I'd resigned myself to this existence because she's such a wonderful person. She's devoted to the kids (one with a long-standing serious medical condition) and her ailing parents. She doesn't waste time. She doesn't relax. She has no interests other than creating memories for the kids and assisting her parents. How can I complain about lack of attention from someone who's so selfless? Backing off was my way of supporting her.

This year, I started thinking, what about my memories? I'd like to have memories of a satisfying sex life with my wife. I'd like to have memories of companionship and intimacy with my wife. What I'm going to have is a lot of resentment and bitterness unless something changes. Because for years I've just been rolling over and muttering my mantra about what a wonderful person she is and how selfish I am for wanting more from her.

As I've slowly realized that maybe I should expect more, other crises have developed. Her mother took a turn for the worse this fall after several years of illness. Last week she entered palliative care. Okay, maybe not the best time to bring up relationship issues. Support her by backing off on that stuff. I tried to talk to her, or listen really, about her mom. That led to a new discovery.

One night a few weeks ago, after hearing the latest updates on Mom, I jokingly asked if she was chain-smoking by now. After some prodding, I learned the answer was no, but it was a daily habit. This just kinda floored me. You need some backstory here.

About ten years ago I was getting one of the kids ready for a bath when I noticed a cigarette butt in the toilet. I called my wife in to show her and shake my head at the gall of the plumber who'd been there that day to smoke in our non-smoking house. To my complete shock, she admitted that it was hers. We'd been together for about ten years at that point, six of them married, and I had no clue that she'd ever smoked. She filled me in. She'd started long ago, maybe before we met, smoking with her friend from work. Just occasionally when they'd sit and have long talks. I can't remember if she mentioned other times or when she'd started up again. But she felt very guilty about it, and made me promise not to tell anyone else, especially her parents or her aunt, who's already suffering from smoking-related diseases. She promised to stop, too. We cuddled, had a long talk, no anger or accusations, just revelation and support and agreement. I do remember telling her how in my single years, seeing an attractive prospect light up was an immediate turnoff, but I could deal with this now. We never said another word about it for years.

I suspected she was still smoking at different times - caught a whiff now and then. But I've got a bad sense of smell and she's always got different lotions and things, so I was never too sure. Once, I said I had a dream about her smoking, and she gave a vague acknowledgement that she had in the few years since I first discovered it. No details. That was it until this spring. I stumbled across a cigarette on our bedroom floor. I pulled it out that night after we were in bed and jokingly asked for a light. She didn't say anything. I hadn't had any clue in a long time, years, that she was still smoking. Not even dreams. I still wondered and suspected occasionally but not with any basis. She was mad at me that day anyway for something, I don't know what. But when no further comment or explanation was offered in the next few days, I got mad. As per my pattern, I backed off and left her alone, don't want to add to her stress of the sick kid and parent. But it kept eating at me, waiting for a chance to find out more. Which brings us back to a few weeks ago.

She didn't want to talk about it. She still feels guilty about it, is embarrassed to talk about it. I left her alone for several days. But my mind was off and racing. Daily? For how long? Years? How did I not know? Why didn't she tell me? What other skeletons are in her closet? Is her usage increasing as mom gets worse? She says she'll stop when mom passes, but will she be able to if she picks up a regular habit now? Can I do anything to help her? Have I failed to provide her the support she needed to keep her from smoking? I started losing weight and sleep. I couldn't focus at work. I started noticing evidence of smoking everywhere I looked - in the car, on her clothing, in the house, on her. I finally couldn't hold it anymore and told her how smoky she smelt the night before, and she should be careful while visiting her mother. She still doesn't want anyone else to know, especially the kids who now of experimenting and impressionable age. I shortly after picked her up and we talked a bit more about specific clues that she should watch. And she clarified that the daily habit only started with the fall's downturn in her mom's health. It'd been maybe weekly over the years, with frequent stretches of weeks or months with nothing, and a longer period of frequent usage (months?) during a particularly bad phase with a sick kid. And no more skeletons. But she doesn't want to talk about it, at least not right now.

So I backed off, don't say anything. I did write her an email, giving her my support no matter what she does with it. I also asked her not to hide it from me, and let me help her hide it from the kids. She read it, thanked me, and hasn't said a word since.

So I've been bursting for the past couple weeks. I still want to talk about it. How often did she turn away from a kiss or say not tonight because she didn't want me to smell the smoke? How often did she avoid my company for an errand or walk so she could smoke? Why can't she talk about it? Is this a sign of the lack of intimacy in our marriage? Some days she's smokier than others. Why doesn't she ask me for a sniff test when she comes in so she can figure out which methods are better for hiding the smell? I'd so desperately love to help her with it because then it'd be our little secret, and I'd feel like she needed or wanted me for something. But she won't let me in.

At some point in there a few weeks ago, shortly after the first revelation, I had spent the day reading about intimacy and marriage on the net. She was already half asleep but I couldn't hold it in. I burst out with something about how we need to work on our marriage after this crisis passes. I know, I know, bad timing. She was a bit angry, but we had a bit of a talk, a start anyway. We've since started having an occasional little kiss goodbye. We stopped doing that long ago. I didn't realize how much I missed it. I told her that by email, and it's continued. So she is responsive, but there is so much more to talk about and work on. And she doesn't want any of that right now.

To fill the void, I've jumped into the world of relationship books. I'm almost done SSM, and I'm on my third audiobook. They just give me even more I want to talk about with her. I told her about the books, and left them sitting out, but she hasn't looked at them or said anything about it other than a "sounds good" when I mentioned it.

What I'm wondering is if the time will ever arrive to talk. Yes, it's a particularly acute crisis right now with her mom having perhaps weeks left. But this has been the case for years, she's always too busy to talk. There's always some crisis or distraction or lack of sleep. And I just keep holding my tongue and feeling isolated. Her mother will pass, and the bereavement period will begin and last for who knows how long. This is coming to a head for me because of the crisis with mom. Is that what crises do, blow up the log jams?

I just needed to get lots off my chest. Thanks for reading.

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Welcome to the board

Get out and GAL.

DETACH.


Believe none of what she says and half of what she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Most of us lose weight after BD.

You are on moderation right now on the forum.
SO post in small frequent posts until you get off of it.

Your W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.

USE it wisely.

Knowledge is Power - Francis Bacon


Me-70, D37,S36
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Originally Posted By: banjopicker

She says she loves me but that's not what I feel. Sex has become a once a month encounter if it can be squeezed into the commercial break. Trying to find out the daily activities and plans is hit or miss because she's always busy or distracted. Any deeper conversations just don't happen. We have few common interests. She's so tired that anything I ask of her seems like another burden to saddle her with.


Hello and welcome to the forums! You're actually in a pretty good spot to fix things I think, because it doesn't sound like your W is at the crisis point yet. Nearly all of us here don't find our ways here until the crisis point has already come and gone, and then it's not about repairing a M, it's about trying to put the pieces back together. Have you read Divorce Remedy? What about the 5 Love Languages? I think both would really help you in your sitch. Both will tell you that what you're guilty of right now is sitting around doing nothing and expecting your W and your M to improve with time. It won't happen. YOU have got to do something to change the dynamics. And the sooner the better. 5LL will teach you your primary love language, but more importantly it will teach you your W's, and it will teach you that your PLL and hers are probably not the same. So if you're trying to show her love using your PLL (like most of us do), then it's not registering with her. You have to show her love in HER PLL, and when you do then great things will usually follow!

The key is to not sit around and wait for her to fill your love tank first thinking you'll reciprocate later. That's what happens in most marriages, both spouses sit around on empty doing nothing while griping about how their spouse isn't filling their love tank. Fill hers first, then she will WANT to fill yours.

Good luck!


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
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I agree with AS....

I was at this point 5 years ago and I did nothing to fix it. It got to the point where, i stopped filling her love tank and I am where I am at because of that.

Fill her love tank, be the 1st to do it. Don't wait, take actions. Your at a great place!!! A place many of us LBS want to be in. Realize our issues before your Spouse Drops the bomb.

You don't even need to talk, show actions of her love language.


Me:36 W:34
T:15 M:10
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S8 S5 S1
D-Day 9/17/2012
OM Confirmed 9/18/2012

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Originally Posted By: lostsoul13
I agree with AS....

I was at this point 5 years ago and I did nothing to fix it. It got to the point where, i stopped filling her love tank and I am where I am at because of that.

Fill her love tank, be the 1st to do it. Don't wait, take actions. Your at a great place!!! A place many of us LBS want to be in. Realize our issues before your Spouse Drops the bomb.

You don't even need to talk, show actions of her love language.



Agree, would kill to be in your place! You have huge potential to fix this. You are at the beginning rather than the end, and your way back is a heck of a lot shorter smile

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Thanks all for the encouragement! Good to hear there's hope. I think so, too. It's just so frustrating that I can't get her attention.

I've almost finished Sex-Starved Marriage. I've listened to Fighting for Your Marriage by Markman, Stanley, & Blumberg. Also Four Seasons of Marriage by Gary Chapman, and I'm almost done Chapman's Five Love Languages Men's Edition. And I've several other books from the library waiting to go next. Never read any of this stuff before. Didn't think I needed to. Now I wish I had.

Yes, I'm seeing the same things you're all suggesting. The idea of acting first has come through quite clearly.

I'm trying to figure out the love languages we've got. Elements of each seem to be there. It's hard to tell even for myself. As for her, I can't tell what she likes. I think I've tried out each language in recent weeks before I even read the book. Bought flowers for first time in years, several chocolates. Words of affirmation, verbal and by email, also something new for me. Touch, peck, cuddle. Some extra chores. Offered quality time but that hasn't gone anywhere. But I can't tell if she likes any of this or is just being polite and putting up with it. I guess the trick is to keep it up for awhile.


M: 44
W: 42
D14, S11
T: 20, 21 years?
M: 17
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Banjopicker,

I actually think your sitch is already in the red zone. Good for you for finding your way here and reading relationship books to try to improve things. I will add "His Needs, Her Needs" to the books you should read. The "Five Love Languages" is awesome, but the 5 might be too high level, "His Needs, Her Needs" is a good follow up because it gets more specific.

Originally Posted By: Banjopicker
Backing off was my way of supporting her.


This is a deadly cycle to get into. You were assuming this was what she wanted, but to her it might have looked like emotional withdrawal. I'm sure you didn't discuss that you were withdrawing to support her, and she probably assumed the worst about it and withdrew herself. It's a chicken and the egg dilemma in terms of who withdrew first, but it's a cycle that feeds itself once it starts.

In my own situation, I also came to feel like "persona non grata" and also decided to make the best of it and "do my own thing" to be happy, supporting W as I could. On the surface it would have looked like a good marriage because we were cordial, worked well together, and generally were a good team. Under the surface, however, she interpreted my withdrawal as a judgement that she was not worthy, and that I wasn't interested in spending time with her. Therefore, when I would approach her she would be snippy and standoffish which reinforced to me that she wanted to be left alone. Over time, that drained her "love tank" to the point that even if I tried to engage she was no longer interested. I fear that you may be at that point now as well, and it's much worse than it looks, because there is a lot of resentment there that she hasn't given voice to and you haven't seen.

As you've figured out, your marriage has now become devoid of intimacy, she's keeping secrets from you with regard to the smoking, she's not making any effort to pursue shared interests, and she is investing her emotional energies elsewhere. There are two scenarios here: (1) either she has accepted the situation for what it is and is satisfied with it, or (2) she is getting her emotional needs met with another man via an emotional or physical affair.

In either case she doesn't have the motivation right now to do anything different with you, and you cannot make her change.. That's going to be a hard thing to come to terms with, because like you I thought "who wouldn't want a better marriage? Who wouldn't be willing to do the work to have more intimacy?" The answer is, she may not be.

So what does that mean? You are now trying to engage with her and "wake up" your marriage at a time when her head is not in the game. If you start pursuing her, arguing with her, pleading with her, you will make your situation a lot worse. If you go to marriage counseling with her and expose all your emotions and fears, you'll make your situation worse, so tread carefully!

I do think you should have a conversation with her that you are not satisfied with your marriage, and that you're willing to do the work to make it better -- but when you have that conversation you need to be prepared to mainly listen and not try to argue or problem-solve in the moment. Just listen, take in what she says. Repeat it back to her the next day to let her know you heard it. Hold back on presenting a list of "what you want" or itemizing what's wrong with your marriage as it stands. Don't present a list of complaints about her. Just tell her you're not satisfied with the level of intimacy in your marriage, you would like more, and you're willing to work on it.

I don't think you have a "next move" until you get her reaction. Be prepared that more than likely she will tell you she's not interested in pursuing that right now. If that's how it goes, it's very important that you be prepared to handle that with dignity. Think about your response in advance, don't make things worse. She's now in the mode of delivering bad news and will deliver even more if you push her. Once she verbalizes it it becomes more real and she believes it more, so it's better to leave it unsaid for now until she's in a better frame of mind.

Then, you'll need to work on you. You'll need to figure out how to fill her love tank without her help. You'll need to figure out how to be the most attractive person you can be. You'll need to figure out how to get happy, and how to get your emotional needs met without her contribution *for now* so that you are someone who is attractive and fun to be with.

That's where it starts.

WRT the smoking, give up on that for now. Just completely ignore it. Continuing to push that point by either saying "it's bad" or "it's fine" will just make things worse. I think it's a stupid thing for her to do, particularly with kids, but her body, her choice, and until you have a larger balance in her love bank, you can't start making withdrawals to address her smoking.

Accuray


Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced
M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11
Start Reconcile: 8/15/11
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced)
In a New Relationship: 3/2015
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Sorry, two more things -- don't read the relationship books in front of her, and don't leave a pile of them laying around. Read those in confidence. Why? Because doing it in front of her is pressuring her to read them too, or discuss them with you, or engage with you, and no one likes to be pressured that way.

Secondly, start fighting your instinct to support her by withdrawing. If she's going to visit her sick parent and you don't think she wants you to come, go anyway. If she's taking your sick child to a doctor's appointment, make sure you go too. Don't be obtrusive, just be present. If she's going grocery shopping, go with her. Start training her that you are going to support her differently going forward. Start easing into that subtly, a little bit more each month, not all right away. Be smart about it, don't smother her, you want to gently ease into the frame until you have a role in the movie too, so slowly she doesn't notice that all of a sudden you're always where she needs you.

Accuray


Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced
M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11
Start Reconcile: 8/15/11
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced)
In a New Relationship: 3/2015
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Accuray, thanks for the really thoughtful reply. Wow! I've read it many times. Some parts I say yeah. Other parts I'm saying, Really?

I'm thinking the options aren't as stark as you suggest. I can't see the possibility of a PA or EA. I know, I know - coming from a guy who didn't know he was sleeping with a secret smoker for years, my powers of observation are suspect. But still, I think all of her emotional energies are tied up in the children and her parents. She hasn't got any left for me or anyone else for that matter.

As far as her love tank goes, I can't tell if she even has one (although I assume she must). My withdrawal didn't generate any reaction. Just less arguments and confrontation (which is my comfort zone). She's seems okay with it, if she's even noticed. Kinda the same with the positive things I've tried - can't tell if she likes or even notices them.

She does seem open and is agreeable to improving things, judging from her reaction to my little advances. Like today, I hauled her in for a hug after a brief update on mom, told her I loved her, and made a light-hearted reference to my books telling me I have to try and meet her emotional needs. So I need to know what they are. She sounded agreeable, but no mention of any form of followup or timetable or further interest. Is it that she's got deeper problems with me that she doesn't to bring up at this time of crisis? I don't think so. It's more that she wants as much as possible to stay at the status quo while she deals with her mother.

I think I will at least have that conversation you suggest, and try to at least get an expression of interest in working on things later. And maybe some ideas on what her PLL might be that I can work on in the meantime.


M: 44
W: 42
D14, S11
T: 20, 21 years?
M: 17
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 26
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Here's an image I told my wife about that describes how I see my place in our family:

A family portrait in front a fireplace. Wife and two kids are posed together. Me, I'm not there. But I am in a nicely framed photograph on the mantel. That allows them to readily agree that they have a husband/father - just point at the framed photo in a cherished spot as evidence. It also allows them to carry on their lives with the amount of input from me that one gets from a photo. The only upkeep required is a little dusting now and then.

This was a few weeks ago that I brought it up, before my own emotional crisis ramped up. She didn't say much about it. We kinda left it, as we usually do, by chalking it up to my negative thinking and low self-esteem. You know, things for me to work on.


M: 44
W: 42
D14, S11
T: 20, 21 years?
M: 17
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