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I don't know if it's a matter of detachment. I think the ground is moving under your feet and your are having trouble maintaining your balance. You know you need safe ground but don't know where to step, especially not knowing if there's a life line that can be thrown your way if you need it.

I was hoping you could find an IC familiar with PPD (lifeline) in your area. They can ask some pretty simple questions and give you their impression, even if your W isn't involved in the beginning. They could also guide you in helping her get treatment as needed.

An IC familiar with diagnosing and treating PPD is the way to go. I think it's good that your W asked for a referral to woman C but that doesn't mean she will be effective with PPD.

A phone consult may be really helpful for you if there is no one in your area.

What could it hurt? You may find out I'm completely off-base or you may get some really good insight into what you're facing.

Either way, you've gotten a bit of solid ground under your feet.

What were your impressions after reading the book?


Me 57/H 58
M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do.
I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
Caroline Myss
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Originally Posted By: labug
What were your impressions after reading the book?


After reading the book, I would say that PPD is easily likely in this scenario. As in all of these matters, not everything matches up, but many things do.

I would also mention that before we had our current children, our first attempt resulted in the loss of twins half way through her pregnancy. It was a horrible experience and one that brought us even closer together. We did not give up and ended up having a beautiful son two years later.

After reading the book, this is an important piece that also plays into this equation.

I looked up the names of the two counselors he recommended and one of the two does list experience with PPD, although I am not sure I can call and grill her as I am not sure who my wife will choose. I cannot weigh in on this one.


W: 40
Me: 44
M: 12 years
Together: 14
Three children (S-4, D-3, S-1)
EA started in April, discovered in 07/12
ILYBNILWY: 07/12
MC Started: 09/12
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I am so, so sorry for your loss. That is so hard on a family.

Did any of you (you, her, couple) get counseling after the first loss?

About the IC, doesn't mean she can't counsel you as the H of a W with PPD. But, you might want to wait and see who she chooses so as not to create a conflict for the IC.

This is a tightrope but I think you're up to the challenge.


Me 57/H 58
M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do.
I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
Caroline Myss
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You may have seen this phrase in some of your reading

You are not alone. You are not to blame. With help, you will be well.

As you can't really say that to her at the moment, if you could convey it in quiet way it might be helpful. You know we all get very good at conveying unspoken feelings through body language, facial expressions and gestures. Watch that.

Exude nonjudgmental acceptance for now.

Have you thought about IC for you? You also need support.

This is a family problem.


Me 57/H 58
M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do.
I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
Caroline Myss
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Can't get my quote box to work.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
"First of all, were the two of you in a mutual agreement that you are (have been the past two weeks) actually "working" on the M? Did either of you tell the MC that you are/would actively work on the R? If yes, what have you seen her do that would be considered working toward a better R?"

Nick's Reply:
"In our fifth session we did agree that we were going to make time to spend one-on-one at dinner or some outing and have the nanny take care of the kids. The MC specifically asked do you want me or her to take care of the planning. W said she would be more comfortable doing it so there was less chance of me having high hopes or expectations for the dinner.

In the end the dinner was never planned. When the MC asked us in our last session why she did not pursue it, she said it felt like pretend still."

My take on this is that the MC was trying to start with baby steps toward her working on the MR. He probably knew she wasn’t going to jump in all the way. However, she may have left the impression she was more “willing” to do what he suggested than she truly was. Notice this part again……
“said she would be more comfortable doing it so there was less chance of me having high hopes or expectations for the dinner”.

I tend to believe she wanted the control….but not necessarily to save your hopes, but more so that she would not be pressured by whatever you planned. Make sense? She knew she wasn’t going to have any romantic dinners, long moonlit walks, or even a chance at any alone time. She doesn’t want to be alone with you unless it’s to discuss D.

Nick, I remember how I would react when my H showed any sign of hopefulness or “happiness”. To me, it was him thinking everything was going to be okay and the problems were over. I had seen this from past times and I had to intentions of him mistakenly thinking I was “coming around”. It actually stirred my anger more and as a result, I treated him even worse in order to get him to see how serious I was. So, I can see why your W gets mad when you are acting happy & contented all the times, as she said to the C.

At the end of the session, I think she was telling you and the C that she wouldn’t be attending any more MC sessions. The only meeting she is interested in right now is a mediator to proceed with a D.

You see, just the act of attending MC gives the impression to the LBH that’s she willing to work through the problems in order to save the M. The first thing the LBH usually does is beg his W to go with him to C. But her mind is already made up (as far as she is concerned) and most times…she goes just as a way to show her H that it did not work. Many W’s used the MC session to “announce” that she’s ready to proceed with the D.

I personally do not believe going to a MC solves anything unless both parties are ready and willing to save the M.
She has a lot of resentment. She’s carried this around for no telling how long, and you didn’t even know it. Now that resentment has turned into real anger. The more you appear to be trying to save the M…..the more anger she feels. So, my advice is to not suggest going back to any counseling of any kind. Right now, any suggestions alone that line will sound like you are trying to fix things (and of course you are) and it only makes her more angry.

I’m not telling you to give up and file for the D. I’m saying that you have to let this go in order that she can see you are no longer trying to fix it. Just leave her alone. Step away and leave her alone. Put your time, energy, and focus all on the kids and your personal life. Continue to show a good attitude.

In the C session, she was saying she wants you to give her space when she says she has a bad day (code words) and yet when she blows up you are suppose to find out why (more code). But once D, she can’t have it that way….right? I think she should see you “not” giving her any one on one. “Not” giving her any attention or concern about what kind of day she had. She doesn’t want any of that…..so don’t give it. I just don’t think this idea of trying to be their BBF works well in this type of situation. This is the time for her to see that you aren't putting so much effort in her. If she talks, you still show good manners and you listen and look at her when she talks......but don't offer her any suggestions, etc. Do you see what I'm trying to say? I know that sounds opposite of what you think you should do, and it probably was part of the problem at one time. But what once would have worked.....doesn't work now. Just like pursuing doesn't work right now. Don't be a jerk, but you just don't show so much concern like you've been doing. Trust me, she'll notice. She'll realize what she's giving up, if you do this right and if she's not too deep in an A.


This may surprise you to hear this on the DB board (and there aren’t too many) but I’m telling you it’s time for the last resort. You don’t act mean or cruel. You don’t even have to act cold toward her. Don’t go to extremes the other way. But stop doing things for her that you wouldn't do for anyone. You know, like you would still help lift something heavy....but you don't do all the house work just so she doesn't have to do it. Stop helping her with little things so much. Stop trying to fix her problems or rescuing her. Speak to her as if you would talk to a person you just met or a co-worker. Just small talk in order to not appear cold. Avoid being alone with her as much as possible. Continue to be a good father and do things needed for the children. Do things for yourself. If you are having a good time and feel good….don’t be afraid to show it. But do nothing to give the impression to her that you still hold out hope for the R. Continue to improve yourself in order to find the man you use to be, except this one will be even better b/c he has kids.
I hope this doesn’t confuse you more. I know what the WAW feels and most of what they probably think. She’s working so hard to get away from you and to feel free. The more you try to hold onto her, the more she’ll resent you.

This is not giving up! It’s a different method from what you have been doing. Most LBS are afraid to do this, but I think it’s all that you have left…that will actually work.
It’s not going down with the Titanic! I’m throwing you a lifesaver.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Hi NickB. I just wanted to come by and say hello. I have been reading and you have been given fantastic advice from people that know.

And you seem to have a very strong grasp on DBing. It is very encouraging. Keep moving forward.


TPS
Me: 44 H: 42
M14 T17
S10 D7
10/10 H moves out after death of his father-same month
21/04/12 H is 'DONE'
04/05/12 OW/PA confirmed (rumors from 2010)
July '14 H ends affair
May '15 H moves back home
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smile Well Nick, one thing about internet support forums, there's no lack of opinions.

I see that as good thing if it causes you to study the possibilities and explore avenues open to you, thereby allowing you to make the best decisions for you and your family. You have access to the research on the topic and have resources in your home area. I wouldn't expect you to take anyone's word, including mine, on your next step without getting satisfactory answers to your questions.

About rescuing, we all need it at times. Mental health issues are wrapped in stigma and judgment that make it difficult to admit that there may be a problem, even with great family support. I see your W as trying to find her way by going to MC with you and in asking for referrals to ICs. People don't choose to seek counseling if they think everything is OK.

I don't think you can fix her, that's not your job but you can support her even though right now that may be very difficult and it does require a certain amount of detachment.

None of this is easy and it is a tightrope walk at times. But as I said, I think you're up to the job. I wouldn't be revisiting this if not for the red flags I saw in your first posts along with the new one you threw up today.

Good luck.


Me 57/H 58
M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do.
I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
Caroline Myss
Joined: Oct 2012
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Bug,

You are right. The beauty of this board is the wealth of diversity and experience. We are all learning that even if our sitches differ in some ways there are lots of common bonds. We are all also learning that DB'ing ultimately says to do what works which is sometimes frustrating as well want easier answers and challenges at times.

I have benefited tremendously from the reading I have done on this board and also am blessed to have so many wonderful people learn of my sitch and offer, support, guidance and recommendations. It is helpful to me in many ways.

Long ago in my career I learned that a person's greatest strength is also their greatest weakness. Over time I saw this same axiom play out in other professional arenas. I have now also learned that it is true in personal relationships as well. One of my greatest strengths in life has been that I do not rattle easily. I can stand strong during times of great challenge and adversity, but I also believe that this can come off as too cold or uncaring rather than strong and unwavering.

Nothing like a few self-inflicted wounds to get your Monday started!

Stay strong. We are helping each other and many others with the sharing of our experience, pain and triumphs.


W: 40
Me: 44
M: 12 years
Together: 14
Three children (S-4, D-3, S-1)
EA started in April, discovered in 07/12
ILYBNILWY: 07/12
MC Started: 09/12
Patience Tested: 1,245,963 times since 07/12
Joined: Nov 2011
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I have now also learned that it is true in personal relationships as well. One of my greatest strengths in life has been that I do not rattle easily. I can stand strong during times of great challenge and adversity, but I also believe that this can come off as too cold or uncaring rather than strong and unwavering.

Yes, the very thing that makes me excel in my career made me a very difficult person to live with.

But I've learned that the world is not as black/white as I had seen it and that there is a middle ground.


Me 57/H 58
M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do.
I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
Caroline Myss
Joined: Jul 2007
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"For me DB’ing is about creating a healthy distance right now in our relationship."

Based on what I have read you are not doing this. I don't want you to take that the wrong way. But you are just not doing it. Here.. take this example. Go back to when you were dating. How would you react differently if you had just met this "person"?

"I am struggling with identifying potential 180s."

And this is why I do not think you are doing a good job. Why is it your "struggle" to figure out how to change?

With me so far?

"For example, she has mentioned she would appreciate small gestures such as getting her coffee when I am out. This wasn’t something I used to do in our past and is something I would have thought was pursuit behavior in some small way. Because she mentioned it, I have been stopping occasionally for coffee on my way back from the gym in the morning."

Why did she become bored with you? Or in me asking you that question can you see why she "wants out"? Can you define yourself without "her" in it? I am not faulting you.. or telling you that you are failing. It is what we are taught everyday in life. Men should be men.. and work towards making our "women" happy. But what we are taught everyday becomes the thing they "hate" the most. It pushes them away.

"I get comfort when the MC gets her to open up because she is calm and is beginning to offer me a sense of what she sees as the problems in the R."

She did not seem calm at the end of the last session. Lets just go out on a limb here.. What would you do to change things if I told you 100% that right now she feels and has NO attraction to you at all?

I read your thought about the other man. And I understand.

But here is my question. And I want you to understand that your answer drives this conversation. I want you to understand that it is a yes or no question. There is no in between. So think about what I am asking you here.

Is a physical affair a deal breaker for you?

Now.. Even though Sandi 2 in my nemesis (Not really.. I really do like her. I just enjoy poking at her a bit) I am not to far off from her thought about you needing a LRT. I am not sure you really understand how far she has gone away from you. Answer the questions! And read my signature. They are there for a reason.


Relax
Eat
Think
Act normal
React.. Smartly.
Do something different.
Emulate.
Do Work.

Lets get "RETARDED" in here.


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