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Originally Posted By: Jack_Three_Beans
About Trust...

This is me, this is 100% true in my case and I think, believe it should be true for almost everyone here.

I gave it back to my wife far too soon, it wasn't earned and it wasn't deserved.

Because I did that? I was a fool, and I was mad at her for what? Because I wanted to trust her and she didn't deserve it? Because SHE made me a fool...hehe...notice that? I made it her fault. When it was in fact mine. Wanting something badly doesn't make it happen.


I believe in Starsky's point...with an addition.

Trust must be earned by them BUT;
Trust must be verified, by you.

And only when they want it and only when you can give it.


So true JTB. I made the same mistake. Trusted too soon, did not verify. And what happened? H started the affair back up again about two weeks after he came back home to 'reconcile.' I blame myself. I wanted things to go back to normal overnight, without doing the hard work and having the tough conversations with H. I was a doormat because I was just so happy he was back home.


M:12yr
06/11:IDLYA
07/11:Moves out
08/11:PA disc(began in May)
09/11:Moves w OW
10/11:Breaks up w OW;gets apt
11&12/11: Touchngo w me
1/12: Comes home-PA resumes
2/12: PA disc; PA ends
Today: Piecing
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Originally Posted By: Some Day

So true JTB. I made the same mistake. Trusted too soon, did not verify. And what happened? H started the affair back up again about two weeks after he came back home to 'reconcile.' I blame myself. I wanted things to go back to normal overnight, without doing the hard work and having the tough conversations with H. I was a doormat because I was just so happy he was back home.


This happens very, very, VERY often.


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)
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I'm only on like post 15,000 or so of this thread and I am sure people saw this and will spotlight it...

Starsky, Denver, LITB, I think Jack and even 25 (who has been absent this topic) do certainly have one thing in common...

Their spouses confided that what really did convince them to come back, was not shame, financial loss, fear of being alone, etc, etc...

Rather, it was fear, yes... it was the fear of loosing their best friend, a great person, the love of their life, etc...

And I'd say that was in the face of an OP...

The LBS really does need to present as someone the WAS might desire, or desire more than the alternative, for them to first change their mind... and may or may not be important the LBS takes the tough stance of closing the door metaphorically... some DO come back before the door is closed... others may waver and might need that incentive...

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Starsky, I do want to bring something up specifically with you, because your sitch was, for all intents and purposes quick over to the positive and (I don't know your position on this except for responsibility regardless, yet I do mention it for analytical purposes) your W was apparently not MLC.

And yes, at this time, at least for you, this is somewhat moot... what you did worked, and for you that's what matters... I just mean that in a subjective kind of way...

What I wonder though is... I know this sounds crazy... your W still remember the good guy you were when you went AtLRT and Ultimatum on her...

Do you believe that is likely?

I ask because I do wonder at the speed it worked for you and your W's "reason" (your charm and wit) for choosing to R.

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Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem
Starsky, I do want to bring something up specifically with you, because your sitch was, for all intents and purposes quick over to the positive and (I don't know your position on this except for responsibility regardless, yet I do mention it for analytical purposes) your W was apparently not MLC.

And yes, at this time, at least for you, this is somewhat moot... what you did worked, and for you that's what matters... I just mean that in a subjective kind of way...

What I wonder though is... I know this sounds crazy... your W still remember the good guy you were when you went AtLRT and Ultimatum on her...

Do you believe that is likely?

I ask because I do wonder at the speed it worked for you and your W's "reason" (your charm and wit) for choosing to R.



I'm sorry, you lost me KD. confused


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

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Just to add that MLC doesn't have to last "years". In fact, it can last just a few months depending on the person's willingness to accept their life changes. Again, MLC is not a disease, it's a transitional period which some people handle better than others.


M-43 W-40
2D - 9 and 5

Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet a new life.

RECONCILED AND WISER
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Originally Posted By: zig
in the end though, it is still about saving our marriages. and it doesn't seem emotionally feasible to me that if it can take up to 2 yrs or more for the changes to make a real difference to the was, that unless the lbs had enormous faith, expectation and hope, that they would be able to sustain staying in the db arena that long


Wanted to pull this out for a spotlight, as well.

I think that most who read MWD's books understand how PRO-M she really is (or opposed to D, depending on your desired perspective).

It appears to me that, again, while she does state that she agrees that in some cases, D is the right option (and she states abuse as being one of the few reasons)... I'd guess that for MWD, if it took 5 years to DB and save the M... or more... then a success is a success, a M is saved, and her job is done...

I think there's also something important to note about the books and this site...

It is my opinion that, many people who find their way here... well... they probably should have read the DB/DR books a year or two before the registered on this site. If only more people were more proactive in working on their M... BEFORE it needed work...

Anyhow, for that reason, it seems that many people who come here are probably already due for LRT, the 37 rules, etc... AND... a lot of damage already done with broken trust, infidelity, perhaps some form of abuse...

So when they come here, there's huge amounts of fear in them which may come out in the form of clinging, controlling, snooping, daemonizing their spouse, anger, even possible suicidal or violent tendencies, major depression, etc...

Part of why a lot of us, I'd say pretty much all the vets, promote a "chill first" support...

Anyhow, I suspect that for some who read the books early enough, and I think we see a lot of it in the "success" forums... some GAL here, a 180 or two there, and everything is peaches in their M... here... not so much... grin

So while some newbies we see who come here, who are over the top po'd at their WASs... it almost seems that AtLRT might be the right option. I just wonder if their WAS will remember and miss and want the good person they might have been... or if that LBS might be honest enough as some of our members have become, to admit how serious and harmful to their M some of their past behaviours may have been...

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Originally Posted By: MrBond
Just to add that MLC doesn't have to last "years". In fact, it can last just a few months depending on the person's willingness to accept their life changes. Again, MLC is not a disease, it's a transitional period which some people handle better than others.


I do agree, bond. I know those of us who talk about MLC do stress the crises part. I personally look for transition OR MLC, because IMHO, they should be handled differently.

I am actually looking at some crises tools to see if there might be an application for those who have a MLC partner.

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Let me pull out the important part:

Originally Posted By: Starsky309
Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem



I'm sorry, you lost me KD. confused


grin

Was your W's A in the midst of a "good" M, where she knew you were a good man? And that she really was "exploring options", at least initially, rather than actively getting herself out of the M?

Did that make more sense?

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Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem
I'd guess that for MWD, if it took 5 years to DB and save the M... or more... then a success is a success, a M is saved, and her job is done...


I think Oldtimer wrote about this once -- that the WAS and the LBS roles are really closer together than many think and they will often reverse given enough time. My MC also said that the tragedy is how long it takes to heal a relationship. He said that 95% of the time one of the two give up before *sufficient* time has past. The problem is that there is no rule for what is sufficient, because there are so many variables. I think a lot of it has to do with just how bad things got, and how long the "bad" state persisted before it blew up. If you had a bad argument and were asked for divorce in the heat of passion, that's going to be quicker to turnaround than a spouse who was dissatisfied and resentful for 10 years!

Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem
It is my opinion that, many people who find their way here... well... they probably should have read the DB/DR books a year or two before the registered on this site. If only more people were more proactive in working on their M... BEFORE it needed work...


Yeah, I read that 95% of the time people are starting marriage counseling 2 years too late. My good friend's wife had the foresight to see that if their current marriage trend continued, they would get into trouble even though things weren't bad yet. She made them go to couples therapy and it actually pretty quickly made everything a lot better. After the bomb it seems to have a really crappy success rate.

I think like anything else, people don't believe it can happen to them -- I certainly didn't. Reading self help books would feel like asking for trouble where none exists. I certainly thought this kind of thing would *never* happen to me, so I had no motivation to even think about addressing it before it was too late.

Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem
So when they come here, there's huge amounts of fear in them which may come out in the form of clinging, controlling, snooping, daemonizing their spouse, anger, even possible suicidal or violent tendencies, major depression, etc...

Part of why a lot of us, I'd say pretty much all the vets, promote a "chill first" support...


It seems that in most cases its impossible for a newbie to chill. I don't know how to help people with that, I don't think we can, they have to go through it and come out the other side. From my perspective, all we're trying to do is help them to minimize or avoid any further damage while they panic.


Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced
M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11
Start Reconcile: 8/15/11
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced)
In a New Relationship: 3/2015
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