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I went to the private dance lesson without my W. She chose not to go, threatening to take separate lessons from this point on (we've been there before). The studio was empty when I arrived, which is just as well, as I wanted to cancel anyway. I replaced the fruit, even though I don't think I did anything wrong last night.

She states that I'm negative to be around, that I take out my problems on her, that I create messes for her, that I don't take out the trash consistently, and that I'm not grateful enough when she cooks. I thought I made a fuss when she cooked on Thursday. I guess it wasn't enough of one. I'm bewildered by her comments, so will let time pass, and see if clarity increases. I guess I'm on my own tonight, so may take the dog to the dog park, or a path in a park. I'll go to church tomorrow, and probably swimming again.

CL


CL 53 W 54
M 20 yrs.
03'-09' Separation + Old Patterns + GAL
10-14' Piecing

"The Master allows things to happen. She shapes events as they come."

----Tao Te Ching
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Originally Posted By: Concerned_Listener
I'm guessing there's more going on than this, which probably has nothing to do with me.


In my opinion, it's not about the fruit, but it's very definitely about you. Re-read my last post, and ask a few women to join your thread and see what they say.


Starsky


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)
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Originally Posted By: Starsky309


In my opinion, it's not about the fruit, but it's very definitely about you.


Starsky


We stayed in last night, which was a welcome break from dancing and being together. She was on the phone complaining about me to her mother. I did apologize for losing her shoe (which I retrieved later). I could have taken better care of checking to make sure we had everything before we left, as her shoes were in my bag. It seems like the unspoken rule is she's allowed to be be moody and say what she wants, but I'm supposed to be pleasant no matter what.

I still think that if we're going to be dance partners, than my needs are important too. If we're going to take ballroom lessons, than I have to practice socially to improve and maintain the skills. She will need, for two hours per week, make the best of a social situation. I am willing to explore other venues to find one that fits her better, but simply stopping social practice is not an option. She always has the option of saying she no longer wants to take ballroom lessons, in which case it becomes a casual hobby, with no practice expectations. My mistake was allowing her mood to overly influence me. I was frustrated because she wasn't having a good time at the ballroom venue.

We talked somewhat about the evening, but the focus was on me. It was about how my behavior made her evening more difficult, and my failures throughout the evening. I gave myself space from the R, took the dog for a walk, and went to bed on-time.

I need to work on not being reactive to her moods, allowing things to be imperfect, and going with the flow of events, even when they're unpleasant. I'm working on it. I go to church weekly, and read religious books to help me find the right state of mind, so that I don't go back to old patterns.

CL


CL 53 W 54
M 20 yrs.
03'-09' Separation + Old Patterns + GAL
10-14' Piecing

"The Master allows things to happen. She shapes events as they come."

----Tao Te Ching
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Originally Posted By: Concerned_Listener
My mistake was allowing her mood to overly influence me. I was frustrated because she wasn't having a good time at the ballroom venue.

We talked somewhat about the evening, but the focus was on me. It was about how my behavior made her evening more difficult, and my failures throughout the evening. I gave myself space from the R, took the dog for a walk, and went to bed on-time.

I need to work on not being reactive to her moods, allowing things to be imperfect, and going with the flow of events, even when they're unpleasant.
I'm working on it. I go to church weekly, and read religious books to help me find the right state of mind, so that I don't go back to old patterns.

CL


CL, I disagree. Yes, there are times when that is good advice, and those of us who are "sensitive types" have to constantly work on that. And there are SOME situations with your wife where yeah, it's a question of not letting her mood affect you.

However, it's not just her MOODS, in my opinion -- it's her BEHAVIOR -- toward YOU -- when she is IN one of her moods. Much of it is what I call "crap behavior" (CB), and I think more than that they are TESTS, and that after some good successes in this area you're starting to fail them again.

I think you should try to make a distinction between her just being in a MOOD -- and mostly keeping that to herself (pouting, brooding, etc.) -- and her BEHAVIOR TOWARD YOU when she is in a mood (scolding, belittling you to others (like her mother), hurtful comments, etc.

Do you see the distinction?


Starsky


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)
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Originally Posted By: Starsky309


However, it's not just her MOODS, in my opinion -- it's her BEHAVIOR -- toward YOU -- when she is IN one of her moods.

I think you should try to make a distinction between her just being in a MOOD -- and mostly keeping that to herself (pouting, brooding, etc.) -- and her BEHAVIOR TOWARD YOU when she is in a mood (scolding, belittling you to others (like her mother), hurtful comments, etc.

Do you see the distinction?


Starsky


Yes, I see the distinction. As far as Friday night, a behavior I would point out to her would be when she called me a deadbeat at the dance venue, because I failed to turn in a meal ticket. Everything else, I would call tolerating her mood, or not worth pointing out.

I have to remember that it's important sometimes for me to speak up, even when it's not validated by my W. I'm holding onto myself in the ballroom dance area. If we have further conversation on Friday night, I will remind her that she called me a deadbeat, and that I thought it was harsh for simply failing to turn in a ticket. I will leave it at that, feeling like I've said my piece.

My W is a verbal bully sometimes. In the past I've tolerated it, and allowed it to overly affect me, and would suffer in silence. I bought into her interpretations, that somehow I was failing as a H. I now need to at least speak up, not allow her to control the story, and let her know how I see things.

Thanks. I feel like I'm getting more clarity on the situation, and can make better choices on how to repond to today.

CL


CL 53 W 54
M 20 yrs.
03'-09' Separation + Old Patterns + GAL
10-14' Piecing

"The Master allows things to happen. She shapes events as they come."

----Tao Te Ching
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Hi Concerned Listener - I so admire your consistent and patient journey to understanding yourself and taking responsiblity for your reality and your happiness. I think you're great.

I was just reading something on Accuray's thread about "admiration" and was contemplating the difference between "words of affirmation" used commonly around here as associated with Chapman - The 5 Love Languages, and "admiration" ... and I thought it was a really good point and a subtle, but extremely important difference, particularly in relation to feeling safe enough in a relationship to truely open yourself to your partner.

I was thinking about it from the woman's perspective, but I suspect there is really no difference, see when a woman feels complete adoration by her partner, when she knows, because he tells her in words and actions that he loves how she looks, he adores how she does a particular thing, that the annoying little habits she has are adorable and deliciously desirable because they are her annoying little habits - the adoration provides an environment where a woman can completely be herself, regardless of the social and cultural norms she brings as baggage. I was reflecting that it has been my experience, that my partners who have had the ability to really verbalise and demonstrate that level of admiration for me - have certainly had the best of me. Those were the relationships where I left my baggage at the door and was able to be my true emotional and sexual self.

Words of affirmation are nice "You're a great dancer and I love it when I feel your hand in the small of my back as we are counting in to a waltz - I'm so glad we make the time to do this together" ... Admiration is amazing (leaning in to whisper in your ear) "you are the most desirable man in this room, and I'm the one who is going home with you tonight where I plan to show you how much I love having your in my life." (lifting left hand from shoulder to gently brush your ear and a subtle wink).

You have to be pretty ballsy and feel pretty safe to talk to someone with that level of abandonment (or be a complete sociopath/player/award winning actor!). It's that level of connection then that leads to the emotional intimacy that's required to develop the kind of adult connection we all crave.

Now, the thing is, in abusive relationships, or those where the partners don't have the skills to verbalise or demonstrate their admiration, it's difficult to reach that level of openess. You need trust to get there. If your experience in the relationship is that your partner will blame and punish you for everything that goes wrong in their life, regardless of if it had anything to do with you or not - it's absolutely impossible to get there.

The more I read, the clearer it becomes that your wife does exhibit abusive behaviours towards you - and perhaps she always has. Ask yourself the following questions that are sometimes used as generic indicators of verbal & emotional abuse against men. (WHO 2004)

Does your wife get upset at things you say that you consider just normal conversation?

Are you confused about what you can say to your wife because you never know what will upset her?

Does your wife treat you like a child and only “let” you do certain things of which she approves?

Do you avoid activities when your wife is around because you fear she will criticize you or disapprove?

Does your wife continually criticize who your are, what your do, your clothing, possessions, opinions, and decisions?

Do you feel like you are always at fault and can never do anything right?

Does you wife tell you she is smart and knowledgeable and you are dumb and stupid?

Do you feel that you just can’t make smart decisions and you mentally beat yourself up when you do something that your wife calls stupid?

Does your wife threaten you with physical harm?

Have you ever feared being around your wife?

Has your wife told you to get out, or actually kicked you out of the house, only “allowing” you back on her terms?

Do you feel like you can only stay with your wife’s approval and that your wife is in control of whether you stay together?

Does your wife ridicule your children and blame you for their terrible upbringing?

Are you afraid to even mention your children because you know everything they do which your wife disapproves of will be “your fault?”

Does your wife insult or make fun of your friends and family?

Do you feel uncomfortable talking with your wife about your friends and family, or having them around your wife?

Does your wife read your mail and e-mails?

Are you always cautious about what you write for fear that your wife might read it and get angry?

Is your wife extremely jealous and accuse you of flirting with any female you happen to speak to or compliment?

Have you changed your behavior around women to the point where you feel like you are actually being rude to them in order not to anger your wife?

Does your wife continually doubt your fidelity and accuse you of having girlfriends?

Are you afraid of even mentioning females in conversation because you fear your wife will somehow turn them into your "girlfriends?”

Is your wife jealous of your job, hobbies, interests, and even your pet?

Do you avoid discussing your job, hobbies, interests, and pets because you know your wife will probably get angry about them?

Does you wife tell you that she will always “know” what ever you do when you are not with her, insinuating she has special powers, or friends who will report on you?

Do you avoid doing certain innocent activities while you are away from your wife because you are afraid she may hear about it and turn it into something that angers her?

Does your wife demand to know what you do and where you are all the time?

Do you rush home from work, or other activities, for fear that your wife will be angry because you arrived home late?

Does your wife accuse you of no intimacy while she is the one who is seldom or never intimate?

Do you feel like you are extremely lucky whenever your wife decides to have an intimate moment; a gentle hug, a snuggle, a kiss, or even more?

Does your wife constantly criticize the way you do things, either verbally or with gestures and facial expressions?

Do you feel inadequate doing things you used to do rather well?

Does you wife constantly demand that you do more, make more money, acquire more things for her, take her more places, or satisfy more of her needs?

Do you feel like you can never do enough and you are constantly exhausted with no way of ever catching up?

Does your wife criticize the foods that you eat, or don't eat?

Are you uncomfortable eating around your wife?

Does your wife criticize you for trying to be healthy while she is always sickly and needs attention?

Have you changed from a healthy lifestyle to an unhealthy one because you do not want to anger your wife?

Does your wife blame you for her illnesses or ailments?

Do you sometimes feel like you are the cause of her physical illnesses or ailments?

Has your wife created an intolerable amount of stress in your life?

Do you suffer from physical illness or mental confusion that you cannot connect to any known cause?

Does your wife criticize the way you spend money?

Do you feel like you can only buy things if your wife approves?

Does your wife build up her religious and moral convictions while criticizing yours?

Do you sometimes feel like your spiritual life and morality are lacking and you just are not a very good person?

Does your wife call you derogatory names?

Do you sometimes feel the derogatory names might be true?

Does your wife blame you for everything that goes wrong?

Do you feel like you can never do anything right, or at least well enough to please your wife?

Does your wife threaten to punish you if you misbehave?

Do you fear what your wife might do to you if you do not behave in a manner in which she approves?

Does your wife justify her abusive behavior by saying that she only does it because she loves you?

Do you feel like you live in a very conditional relationship, where if you are good then your wife will love you?

Does your wife accuse you of lying when you know you are absolutely telling the truth?

Do you feel uncomfortable in normal conversation with your wife, friends and family because you fear that your wife will accuse you of lying?

Does your wife accuse you of being disloyal because you did not take up for her?

Are you confused as to why your wife says you are disloyal since you feel like you always support her?

Does your wife always need to “get credit” for everything because everything is always her idea and she always knows what’s best?

Do you hesitate to tell your wife about your new ideas or things you hear because she will say that she told you that long ago, and that you never listen to her because you always need to hear it from someone else?

Does your wife turn normal conversations into opportunities to criticize you and blame you for things from the past?

Do you hesitate to have conversations with your wife because you know they will end up in her criticizing or blaming you for something that has long past?

Does your wife constantly bring up things you did in the past that angered her and accuse you of never learning from your mistakes?

Do you feel like you just can’t win no matter how you try to be the best husband possible?

Does your wife demand that you stay with her because you are obligated or because you have nowhere else to go?

Do you feel trapped in this relationship because you fear what she will do if you leave?

Has your wife threatened suicide, or other bodily harm, if you leave her?

Are you afraid of leaving your abusive wife because you would feel responsible if she did harm herself?

Does your wife treat you like you are less than her, or like you are a child?

Do you feel like a child living in fear of a domineering parent?

Does your wife accuse you of not being the man you were when she first married you?

Do you feel like less of a man than you felt when you first got married?

If you answered Yes to some of those indicators, until you guys deal with the behaviour, until you decide what level of behaviour you are prepared to tolerate, it may not be possible for you to feel safe to open yourself to the true emotional and sexual intimacy you are seeking. Know what I mean?

Whew ... that was a ramble ... it took me a while to get there ... smile

Keep at it CL. You are learning to know yourself and that is truely admirable.


V

Never make someone a priority, who makes you an option.
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Originally Posted By: Walking
Hi Concerned Listener -
If your experience in the relationship is that your partner will blame and punish you for everything that goes wrong in their life, regardless of if it had anything to do with you or not - it's absolutely impossible to get there.

The more I read, the clearer it becomes that your wife does exhibit abusive behaviours towards you - and perhaps she always has.


I decided last weekend that I would not "walk on eggshells" around her for two days. We stayed apart for one day. I decided one day was enough. I proposed we have an active day, and she agreed. We talked about the events of the forgotten shoe, and meal ticket. I told her I didn't appreciate being called a deadbeat over a meal ticket issue. We got back on track that day, and have been fine ever since.

I'm getting clarity regarding the role I have to play with my W--a combination of strength and kindness. I think simply speaking up more, when I'm upset with her comments, rather than tolerating her sharp comments will help me and us to move things forward.

Thanks for the encouragement, Walking.

CL


CL 53 W 54
M 20 yrs.
03'-09' Separation + Old Patterns + GAL
10-14' Piecing

"The Master allows things to happen. She shapes events as they come."

----Tao Te Ching
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Right on my friend!

I think you should not "walk on eggshells" around her for all your days. She tests you constantly and you passed this test. She wants a man, I repeat a man, who can handle her. Quiet strength and kindness is a winning combination. You will find it works pretty much everywhere.


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Originally Posted By: DownNotOut...yet
She wants a man, I repeat a man, who can handle her. Quiet strength and kindness is a winning combination. You will find it works pretty much everywhere.


DNO,
Well stated.

CL


CL 53 W 54
M 20 yrs.
03'-09' Separation + Old Patterns + GAL
10-14' Piecing

"The Master allows things to happen. She shapes events as they come."

----Tao Te Ching
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,778
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A week ago my W was yelling at me because I didn't throw out a leftover in the refrigerator quickly enough for her. I started to go over to get it, and then I stopped. She continued to yell. I stared at the food item, refusing to go any further. She got it herself.

I think one of the upcoming tests will be around finances and her working. Her part-time job will end around Labor Day. Her sister, who is going thru a D, is not in a position to pay her anymore to prepare family meals for them. This job served as a buffer when my W lost her other job about two years ago. It's allowed her to take some time off from the world of work, but now I think she uses it to avoid finding another position. The job accounts for about 1/3 of our income, so it will need to be replaced. I'm hoping she will be eligible for unemployment benefits.

I haven't said anything about it yet to her. I was hoping she would take the initiative and begin looking for work, but that hasn't happened. In my opinion another part-time job would be in her best interests. I think she needs more structure in her life. She stays up all night, and spends the day sleeping. Her main activities are with me when I get home from work and on the weekends. She gets a visit from her mother weekly.

I'm feeling a need to influence the situation and push her to do something, but my guess that is not the best approach.

CL


CL 53 W 54
M 20 yrs.
03'-09' Separation + Old Patterns + GAL
10-14' Piecing

"The Master allows things to happen. She shapes events as they come."

----Tao Te Ching
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