WTF?!?! - Artpay Otway

[Denver_2010]

UPDATE....

I did not receive a response from my W after my last email on Monday night. She is obviously extremely p!ssed off at me. I am feeling a lot of anxiety about that. I am concerned that my laying it out there that I will not be a part of her life, spend time with her, talk with her, etc. under the terms that I was from April through July, will push her away.

I am concerned about W throwing her hands up and giving up on any possibility of reconciliation.

At the same time, I think about how disrespectful W has been to me and our M during those months.

OTH... I empathize with W's confusion, and still recognize that I was the major catalyst to all of this happening in the first place.

So yes, I am still all over the board.

----

I've ended things with OW. It has been tapering off over the past week or so anyway, but I finally told her that I am not ready.

------

Last night was the concert that I had gotten W, SS and I tickets for back in June. As I said in my previous update, W sent me a text on Monday night asking me if I want to go with them. I told her that I didn't think that was a good idea... and that set off some angry responses from W.

I did not hear from W yesterday. I called SS at around 5 p.m. to tell him to have a good time at the concert and to apologize to him again for me not going.

SS said, "Then just go! You are the one holding back. Mom wants you to go. She is mad because you won't."

I explained to SS that I just couldn't go, that his mom and I needed some space away from each other, and that I wasn't mad at her. He said okay, and then told me that he had a friend that was going to use my ticket and go with him.

I was very sad last night knowing that they were at the concert and I was not.

I miss both of them more than I can express in words.

______________________________

Response to some posts from last thread...

This is by far the best communication you have had with your W that I have seen.

You kept your cool and more importantly your LOVE for your W drove the choice of your words........

BRAVO !!!!!!

It is good to hear a little positive reinforcement MHL. Thanks. And yes, my love for my absolutely drove my choice of words. That email came straight from my heart... unlike last week's which was more strategical.

I know that many think that this email was not advisable, but I had to send it. I do not want my W "assuming" that I am sleeping with OW. As hypocritical as it is, I've concluded that me dating would most likely be the final nail in the coffin for W.

My W's insecurity regarding my feelings for her during our M was, and is, too big of an issue for her. Her distrust of me is too big of an issue for her.

I regret having told W that I was considering dating.

Remember what MWD says....sorry I do not have the page number....

"It is the smallest consistent actions that get noticed the most."

Remember to give this its proper time to work.......

THIS IS huge for me. I was just complaining last night that THIS is not working. My fellow bits reminded me that I have given it less than a month. That I need to give it at least 1/2 of the amount of time that I gave my previous approach.

Unfortunately, my emotional tank is running on empty, and my fuse on patience is short.

I'm trying to regroup, but it has been difficult for the past 2 weeks bc W has been contacting me so much.

You are watching out for your feelings while at the same TIME you are communicating with your W in a firm but LOVING way.

I absolutely think you did the right thing by not going to the concert, and you even said why........you did not leave your actions open to interpretations by her.

I hope so MHL. Following through with not going did p!ss her off. My fear is that I provide her with the justification that she is looking for to throw her hands up and say that she is DONE.

It was interesting that her text to me that she was giving my ticket away since "you don't want to go with us" did not reflect the reason that I actually gave her for not going. Of course I wanted to go with them! I told her that I didn't think it was a good idea.

Why she twisted I don't know.... probably bc she's trying to find a reason to hate me again.

Keep yourself centered, there will be more tests to come......

don't read any malice into her words.......she does LOVE you and she does MISS you. If she did not she would not be so upset and angry with you.

Can't have Anger without Love........if she did not care she would not be angry.

I really hope that you are right. My W is so damned stubborn though. She could choose to give up rather than falling on her own sword and moving closer to me.

This approach did not work for her so she may try a softer approach next.......that will be even harder for you. Be prepared, send the same message over and over and she will hear it eventually.

I am somewhat prepared. But this is not easy. Like I said above, I miss my W and SS a lot right now. I feel much weaker than I did 2 weeks ago.

Still would like to hear more about YOU.....

What do you want in your life???

Is it to hike Mt. Everest??

Jump out of a plane? (with a parachute )

Run a marathon??

Meet the Dalai Lama???

Start to tell us what YOUR dreams are, what are your goals in life, what are your aspirations???

You know, I've done a lot of thinking about this. I honestly don't know MHL. I like to travel and would like to begin doing that again someday.

No marathons, major hiking, or jumping out of airplanes for me though! lol

In some ways MHL, I feel like I am going through my own MLC. Maybe I am... and maybe it started even before W left me. Over the past 9 months, I have questioned whether or not I want to continue with my career, whether I want to sell our house and move to the city, whether I want to move somewhere completely different...

I have put the answers to all of these questions on hold hoping that W would reconcile and we could work these things our together.

I'm not going to lie, she and my SS are still my #1 priorities right now. I know that at some point, I will have to let that go and figure out my own life. I'm just not ready to do anything major right now I guess.

I do have GAL activities... 25, Val, and Mach, have all asked me what I do for me. I don't talk about it much here though.

I go out and spend time with friends a lot. For example, I went to a pool party last weekend with a buddy. Most of this involves sports bars and drinking though.

I go to the gym 3-5 times per week.

I have tried to start reading again. I have always enjoyed it, but stopped reading anything but R books when W left. I'm having problems with this simply because I can't maintain focus.

I spend a lot of time talking with other bits. They have become some of my closest friends. We are traveling to meet over the labor day weekend.

OW was a GAL activity for about 4 weeks... but that is over now. I don't plan on dating anyone at anytime in the near future. I need to get through this without that crutch. If and when my W is out of my head, I will reconsider that possibility.

"W you know where I stand on all of this." <---- if you believe you made yourself clear by your email. Only you can say.

That inlcudes comments meant to make you feel guilty about not going to a concert with SS. (stepson is a button for you Denver)

That inlcudes questions about what, where, who, when and why you are doing anything. (other woman is also a button for you)

So is ("it's always secrets with you Denver")

How many more buttons did she push?

Yep, she pushed quite a few buttons Gritter. She knows me well.

"W, you know where i stand with all of this." I believe is a very appropriate response going forward. I think that my 2 major emails over the past week have made my position very clear.

Answer me this:

What made you respond to her again? Emotions or your values?

Strength or self doubt?

I partly agree with you. Certainly fear and self doubt entered into my decision to respond. But I also needed to be sure that I was clear about a few things with my W. She is insecure when it comes to me... it is something that I seeded long ago during our R. I needed to make sure that I was very clear with her that I was not dating anyone and that the only person that I want to be with is her. BUT, I also needed to be clear on the fact that I won't do it unless and until she commits to working on the M.

You are right though that she pushed some buttons with me that did cause a reaction.

I am not trying to bust on you D there IS one right answer here among all these opinions about the details of what to do or not.

That lies in your ability to put your fear and self doubt away and stand up for what you believe and value.

Everything else is just noise. Everything else is a non starter.

I actually understand what you are saying Gritter. This makes sense.

My problem is that I keep thinking that I can say or do the right thing that is going to make my W see this.

I know that this needs to stop... bc that is going to have to come from within her.

Is she ready to commit to your M? No?

Then

"W you know where I stand on all of this."

Calm. Cool. Collected. Confident. (nickel Gnosis?)

Yes... this is right.

Since my thought/advice usually go over like a lead balloon, no harm in putting it out here.

I disagree with MHL, by a lot.

First of all. I'd cut the DB speak in the emails to your W. It doesn't sound natural and things have different meanings outside this world that others may not get.

Second, I think you are being too much of a lawyer in your responses to W. I know it's hard, but you gotta take off that hat and start just being you...the good you.

Ex. You said that you told her, "W, I said in that email that I am not dating this woman."

This is what you actually said.

"I haven’t meant to avoid that question W. I just don’t see why it really matters to you at this point. ...., I need to move on with my life. That is what I am trying to do.

As far as dating goes, I was very honest with you that I am opening myself up to that happening. "

Do those even remotely sound a like. Especially with your history (her version) I'm going with your W.

Hey Harrier... er, lead balloon! LOL...

Man, I appreciate that you follow my thread and give me honest opinions. I don't always agree with you, but sometimes I do.

For example... I think that you are probably right about the email that I sent to W last week... I probably was too cutesy with the wording. I admit that I was very being very strategic when I was writing it.

The second email, the one that I sent to her on Monday night though... was straight from my heart. As Gritter points out, it was sent as a result of an emotional response. Maybe it shouldn't have been sent, but I feel that it had to be.

And regarding your example above as to how I am too lawyerly, I think that you missed a shorter email that I sent to W. There were 3 emails in which I addressed her question about me dating.

Lastly, I'd stop telling her how much you've suffered this 6 or 9 months. I looks like you completely disregard her feelings over the years. She knows you are hurting you don't need to tell her every time. She knows this is difficult.

Have you ever once acknowledged that the process is difficult for her?

I have... but probably not in a while. I think that the closest that I have come to this is in my email from last week when I told her that i understand why she is unsure about us.

You are right.

See... point taken!

I'm going to say this, and you might think I'm an a-hole, I don't think you've changed as much as you think you have. Personally, I look at my situation 'I can always do better'

I definitely know that I can always do better Harrier. And you are right that I haven't changed as much as I'd like. I've identified a key issue about controlling behavior that I am trying to address... ONe of my main epiphanies is that that behavior can be much more subtle than I ever really considered.

I'm struggling with this for sure.

But I have changed a lot in other ways. I do know that it is always going to be a work in progress and that sometimes, I am going to fail.

There's a good point in there about HER view of you and secrets NOT changing...what's with all that? You never cheated---or what? You flirted and "made her feel" insecure? Is there some truth to that, and or, is it mainly her own inner crap? Make that clear.

Some of it is based in reality. For many of the early years of our R, I kept my W separate from another part of my life... some of my friends. I told my W that i was still close to a couple of ex girlfriends that I wasn't going to stop being friends with those women just because it made my W uncomfortable.

That was in probably the first 1/2 of our R.

The second half though, I really was NOT close to those ex-gfs... and I did not keep my W separate from any part of my life. BUT, I also did not communicate to W that I had stopped being friends with ex's bc I respected HER feelings. AND, I kept those ex's as 'friends' on FB ... which always bothered W.

I was also very private with passwords to my phone, computer, etc. this always bothered W too.

But some of what W is feeling is based in her own insecurities too. She never had to worry about any of my ex girlfriends... they were just friends. I explained that to her over and over... yet she was always very insecure about it. And like I said, this was not an issue the last 4 or 5 years that we were together. Yet W was still insecure about it... and is to this day.

BTW, what the heck are your 180s and GAL Activities?
(I keep forgetting to ask that, which is weird.)

What are you doing for you?

Do you see how that MIGHT help your marital situation, but will certainly help your personal one?

Why isn't that a good enough reason?

I think that I answered this question in an above response to MHL. Val asked it too.

Why isn't it good enough? BC it just isn't. Life is not everything that I want it to be right now. I'm striving to get it back to being the way that I want it to be... BUT with a new understanding as to how to appreciate it and keep it.

I do understand how it can help me personally. Not positive that it can help my marital situation though 25. My W assumes that when we are not talking, that I am out all of the time. That isn't true, but that is what she assumes. My point is, is that she already thinks that I am out doing god knows what.

Thanks everyone for your support and advice. Greatly appreciated as always!

Denver

[Redo]

Denver, I know i am still a newbie to all this. Here's just my own experience and 2c. I read here a lot about 'letting go the rope'. I knew what it meant. Did not know how to achieve it. But i guess somewhere in july, i started paying more attention to my life, my activities. Kept myself busy, hit the gym and felt good physically. Also ended up buying a motorcycle

I dunno, doing all this, i totally neglected the sitch my wife. Yup, i did keep a regular schedule with my daughter. But i really did not care too much about Wife.

Right now i see my wife trying to contact me, figure out what she wants in her life etc.

Not that this might lead to a reconciliation. But i know what i am worth. And thats a big thing.

Try to let go of that rope. Love and live your life. If your wife wants to be a part of it, she will make an effort. If not, know that you will always be okay.

[Drew]

^^^^^^ This!!

[FooFighter999]

^^^^^^^Agreed

[25yearsmlc]

Denver,
I don't want to nitpick every single thing in your m. I really don't want to pile on more either buddy.

But I have to say something about your answer to my question re: "all the secrets" your w referred to in her email (obviously, aside from legally confidential matters). I assumed she was wacking out with her insecurities.

As a married woman I don't get a lot of this behavior. On one hand, I don't feel my h is "entitled" to know what my girlfriends tell me about their private lives. But we know each other's passwords. I think I have looked at his fb page once or twice and I posted a pic on it. He knows mine too, but I doubt he's ever looked.

I have 2 ex bf's from high school/college on FB. I asked h if he minded. He said no. Sometimes I share their posts with h. But - I'd stop in heartbeat if h minded. H just isn't threatened by them or if he is, he hides it well. I have complimented them without flirting, (or so I think.)

It's the hiding that matters, not whether something is actually behind the door, but that the door is locked...make sense?

Denver, I asked you what her comment about the old Denver and "all the secrets" meant, etc.
Here is what I heard from your rather verbose response to my question:

"I openly hid things from my w even though it bugged her and I knew it.
I heard her, but did not care enough or was too proud/stubborn to stop.
I kept in contact with women she was threatened by and kept doing it for years...I gave her reason to distrust me b/c I didn't care how things looked to her. Simply b/c I, Denver, knew I wasn't actually having sex with them, I felt I did nothing wrong " and moreover, blah blah blah....

As I said, I'm Sorry to pile on Denver, but thought you should know how it hit me when I read that answer.

anyhow, carry on. Will post more later...and no, you don't have to have clarity by 9 am tomorrow.

Few of us ever have clarity for long, before something new comes up to confuse us again. Just life.

((( )))

[Denver_2010]

Denver,
I don't want to nitpick every single thing in your m. I really don't want to pile on more either buddy.

But I have to say something about your answer to my question re: "all the secrets" your w referred to in her email (obviously, aside from legally confidential matters). I assumed she was wacking out with her insecurities.

As a married woman I don't get a lot of this behavior. On one hand, I don't feel my h is "entitled" to know what my girlfriends tell me about their private lives. But we know each other's passwords. I think I have looked at his fb page once or twice and I posted a pic on it. He knows mine too, but I doubt he's ever looked.

I have 2 ex bf's from high school/college on FB. I asked h if he minded. He said no. Sometimes I share their posts with h. But - I'd stop in heartbeat if h minded. H just isn't threatened by them or if he is, he hides it well. I have complimented them without flirting, (or so I think.)

It's the hiding that matters, not whether something is actually behind the door, but that the door is locked...make sense?

Denver, I asked you what her comment about the old Denver and "all the secrets" meant, etc.
Here is what I heard from your rather verbose response to my question:

"I openly hid things from my w even though it bugged her and I knew it.
I heard her, but did not care enough or was too proud/stubborn to stop.
I kept in contact with women she was threatened by and kept doing it for years...I gave her reason to distrust me b/c I didn't care how things looked to her. Simply b/c I, Denver, knew I wasn't actually having sex with them, I felt I did nothing wrong " and moreover, blah blah blah....

As I said, I'm Sorry to pile on Denver, but thought you should know how it hit me when I read that answer.

anyhow, carry on. Will post more later...and no, you don't have to have clarity by 9 am tomorrow.

Few of us ever have clarity for long, before something new comes up to confuse us again. Just life.

((( )))

I absolutely recognize that this was wrong of me 25. It is one of the many, many things that I have come to understand over the course of the past 9 months.

I have told W a number of times that I am so sorry that I didn't respect how she felt about these things and that she'd never have to deal with that again. That I would never do that to her again.

I used to be so wrapped up in my fear of losing my independence... my individuality... that I felt that I had a right to this 'secrecy'.

I know longer feel that way at all. In fact, I long for the exact opposite. I want to share everything with my W.

It is one of the reasons that, for the past 6 months, I have been so completely honest with her about everything... including when I decided that I was going to 'date' OW.

I want to be honest with her about everything... including how I feel in my heart. Which... right now I can't be since I am trying to 'move forward' with my life and let her miss me.

It is very frustrating 25.

But I know where I messed up in this area. And it is one thing that I know that I will never repeat again.

[Drew]

I have told W a number of times that I am so sorry that I didn't respect how she felt about these things

So stop telling her.

That I would never do that to her again.

And WHEN SHE GIVES YOU THE CHANCE - show her.

Just show her.

If you tell her that you're showing her - you're back to square one.

[Denver_2010]

I have told W a number of times that I am so sorry that I didn't respect how she felt about these things

So stop telling her.

That I would never do that to her again.

And WHEN SHE GIVES YOU THE CHANCE - show her.

Just show her.

If you tell her that you're showing her - you're back to square one.

I have tried Drew. There have been a couple of different times when I have had an opportunity to show her that I don't have a problem with her having a password of mine... for example with my phone when we were at disney land and she needed to use the navigation on my phone.

The problem is, she just doesn't seem to be getting it.

It's like she is trying to convince herself that I am still this horrible guy who could never change.

[Jack_Three_Beans]

I can't be since I am trying to 'move forward' with my life and let her miss me

What's wrong with that sentence?

[Denver_2010]

I can't be since I am trying to 'move forward' with my life and let her miss me

What's wrong with that sentence?

The quotations around "move forward"...