Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 12 1 2 3 11 12
#2162723 06/23/11 12:27 AM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,496
2
Member
OP Offline
Member
2
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,496
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2120126&page=1

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2123701#Post2123701

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2125481#Post2125481

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2127029&page=1

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2129206&page=all

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2131013&page=1

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2133038&page=all

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2135425&page=all

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2137971&page=all


http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2141563&page=1

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2147094&page=all

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2154891&page=all



I will begin my post with a story.

The other day I was walking my dog along a trail. A storm moved in and the trees swayed back and forth. In the forest I could see trees fall over, usually it was the stronger bigger trees. The ones that refused to bend to the wind. The smaller more flexible trees would move back and forth but did not break.

On my drive home I remembered something I read awhile ago regarding change.

"Only to the extent that we expose ourselves over and over to annihilation can that which is indestructible be found in us"

If you fight change, if you resist it you will self-destruct. Life in essence is change. This will not be the only time in my life I will experience insurmountable pain, this will not be the only time that I will feel as if the ground should swallow me to avoid the pain. If we become like the smaller trees that move and bend with the wind we will sway we will get to the point where we feel like breaking but as is the law of nature we will always return to our natural form.

However if we are like the strong trees who refuse to move, to accept the unstoppable force that we face we will collapse under our own weight.

A lot was said on my previous thread, I found it fascinating how two opposing points of views clashed and even though they had read the same book and read the same threads they could not agree on its meaning.

I suppose this is the case with many things. People have argued about the bible for thousands of years and still can't agree.

There is nothing new to report in my thread other than I continue to move along with my life. Some days are good some days are still a little rough. The pain is real. The feeling in my gut still lingers. Her memory still haunts my thoughts.

I am living though. It is a shame that in order for me to live a part of me had to die.

But

I am moving on. Man cannot discover new oceans unless he is willing to lose sight of the shore.

I have stayed away from posting for awhile and probably will continue to for the time being. I imagine I will do like so many other veterans and return at some point to help those that are just starting out. If it was not for their support in my first few days I am not sure where I would be right now. I would have been like the oak, collapsing under my own weight.

Words fail me!

I cannot describe the unbearable pain I was in, the darkness in my heart. Everything I knew was over. Everything I was. I saw no light. No future. No hope. My life had unraveled and was slipping away. Every phone call made my stomach turn. I remember back in Feb she sent me a picture of her swollen eye. I looked at it for hours. I could not believe what was happening. Each day turned into an eternity each night into a living hell.

YOU cheered me on. You held me up. You supported me. You held my hand. You saw the pain. You encouraged me to continue. You gave me advice. You gave me wisdom. You kept me in check when I lost my way, and when the whole world seemed to have turned from me I came here and found the support I so desperately needed. So I would like to extend a special thanks to all those who have followed my sitch. Who did not give up on me even though I wanted to give up on myself. Some are still around and some have moved on from the boards.

I have been lucky for the most part. I have had some of the wisest posters contribute to my thread. I am very thankful for that.

If you are starting out I will say this:

Not every sitch is salvageable but you will never regret walking this journey. My consolidation prize?

I did EVERYTHING I could to save my M. For me, For her, For my D, and while I can’t claim being totally healed yet, I imagine that it will take years, I can say that I am recovering; slowly at first and much more quickly now. I handled myself with dignity and class and that you will NEVER regret.

It did not happen overnight. It was not one single event that gave me permission to move on. It was a progression. The final “straw”? OM. Each person has to find their inner peace, their Invisible line. I have comfortably found mine.

It is not about OM. I don’t blame him at all. It has more to do with what I can live with and what I refuse to accept. The R did not start overnight. It had been going on for some time and while I’m sure it was not physical it was certainly emotional and heading towards the physical. This was clear to my X. In the back of my head I feared this to be the case. She did not wake up one day and say “I think I will move in with OM next week”. This was discussed in great detail prior to her moving. I have played our convo’s in my head for days now, weeks even. I have gone back and re-read them. Our last “real” convo was 1 week before she moved. She told me about her talk with Jody (DB Coach) she told me how sad she was about the lost dreams and hopes. When I mentioned it did not have to be this way she agreed. She intentionally kept the intent secret from me and while I agree that she owes me nothing I think it is at least common decency to set proper expectations.

From December till she moved she was building the foundations of her new R while making sure I did not go too far. She wanted to keep me holding on and while I don’t think every interaction had a hidden meaning I do believe she knew exactly what was happening. This to me is unforgivable.

Before everyone jumps down my throat and tells me forgiveness is a gift I give myself I will explain.

I understand and I agree. I do forgive her but forgiveness does not include my acceptance of the actions, and this is where SBH post comes in.

Originally Posted By: sad_but_happy
“I will not duck everyones critisizm of my take on the WAS situation. I am here and I will answer the questions.

Yes, I guess you could say I am a success story. My W has cut off all ties, wants to be married, and wants to spend "forever" together. We ML all the time again and do lots of things together. So from that aspect I guess I have been a successful DB'er.

I don't claim to have all the answers, nor did I try to offend. I'm simply tired of the constant bashing each and every LBS takes upon themselves.

WE need to look back and change

WE need to do better

WE need to treat our S better

WE WE WE WE WE




And after all is said and done, the WAS has the CHOICE to stay or go. The WAS makes the final decision. This after MANY OF THEM do more hurt than can be imagined. And we wait for them.

And you know why?

Because WE allow it.



We tell them things like:

"I am here for you".

"Here, let me help you move all my stuff to your new home".

"If you need to talk after having sex with OM, I will be here for you".

"I want to be your friend".

"Oh and W, if you need a set of Ba!!s, you can have mine as I really don't need them any more".



And I am not speaking from any anger. I am in no way upset or hurt by my W actions. I am confused why I put up with it. I know the answer why, but I don't like it.

It wasn't love first and foremost.

It was fear.



In my mind there is more right and more wrong in life which I understand some on this board don't agree with.

And I will keep you all posted on my decision to stay with or leave my W.

The nice thing about piecing and gaining a comfort level is you get to reflect on your situation WITHOUT fear or emotion. You get to decide if staying IS really the best option.


Sometimes one little kiss is enough 25. Sometimkes one EA (even one that lasts only 45 days) is to many. I just haven't decided yet.


As MWD says, DB'ing is about finding yourself. Finding what you deserve. Finding your happiness. And finding a person that would not cheat.


I really do like you all and admire everyones strength. And I look forward to reading great success stories in the future.”



I believe that most of us act out of fear. Fear that they will leave us, stop calling, and leave with OM and so on and so on. It is this fear the stops us from making rational decisions. That allows the control of the sitch to shift in favor of one person and when that person has the control it is almost always exclusively exercised to manipulate and in some extreme cases to hurt. It is our love for them that allows us to stand and take this because of fear and blame.

Ideally, a marriage should be viewed as sharing a vision of the good life,in building a partnership to achieve important life goals, and working to develop the personal virtues that will sustain and enrich that partnership. For the most part, a sincere effort by you [b]and your partner [/b]to live by these virtues will help us avoid many of the problems that arise for us during our marriage. When we build our relationship on a foundation of true friendship, sincere forgiveness, a willingness to look past each other's weaknesses, a commitment to fairness, and a deep loyalty to each other, we are often able to prevent troubles from becoming a threat to our marriage.

However, there are times when even the best of marriages go off track. Marriage and family life can be hard.

Personal virtues such as fairness, generosity, and loyalty, are core features of strong, lasting marriages. For most of us, we grow in our ability to live according to these virtues as we confront the day-to-day ups and downs of real life. However, it is in times of serious challenges or troubles that we truly learn how deep our convictions to these virtues really are. Indeed, the strength of our commitment and dedication can only truly be determined when our relationship is troubled. In times of marital trouble, we find out what kind of commitment we have to our spouse, our children, and our marriage.

Based on my feeling and all the books and articles I have read IMO there are two kinds of marital commitment. The first, more tentative types of commitment have become increasingly popular in our culture that stresses personal happiness and self-fulfillment. We can call this "commitment-as-long-as." This type of commitment usually involves couples who are committed as long as they make each other happy, as long as they get along, as long as their individual life goals line up, as long as they don't fight too much, as long as the sex is good, as long as the relationship meets their needs and helps them grow as people. The bottom line is: we are committed to staying together, not as long as we both shall live, but as long as things are working out for me.

The second kind of commitment that we can achieve in our marriage is not tentative or conditional. It can be referred to as "commitment-no-matter-what." This kind of commitment is "the long view of marriage in which you don't balance ledgers every month to see if you are getting an adequate return on your investment." This type of commitment is a critical part of working through the rough patches that confront every marriage. When both partners are committed to making things better and in finding ways to improve the situation, there is real hope that relationships will help them survive marital troubles. Moreover, many couples get past these troubles and come to know each other in new, more meaningful ways and achieve a deeper level of love and friendship. This is very evident in my own family and several close friends of the family.

Married life is not always easy and it certainly isn't carefree. The reality in life is that life-long marriages almost always experience times of difficulty. Marriage is about working through problems, holding on to hope, letting go of negative feelings, looking past a partner's faults, seeking help when needed, remembering our promises to each other, and caring for each other even when we feel disappointed or hurt. We learn to treasure companionship when we feel alone and we appreciate all the good things in our marriage when we experience some of the tough times.

Nothing meaningful in life comes without effort and sacrifice, but in the end it is our sacrifices for things that make them meaningful to us.

I think in a way this is the point SBH was trying to make if it is not, then I apologize to him, but it is never the less my opinion.

In order to keep this post from becoming overwhelming I will post part two of how I am doing and what is new.

I will also post my own rebuttal because as is the case with everything there are two sides to every story and I would hate to give the impression I am placing blame.


BITS

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,024
N
Member
Offline
Member
N
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,024
Wow 2step, I am speechless. Your wisdom and words humble me to the core and I wish I could see things the way you do and then be able to write them. Outstanding, I would like to borrow some of your words and keep them for years to come.

I hope you dont disappear here and I have said this before, YOUR wife is a fool. If she cannot see the man you are that anyone would be proud to call their mate, then she deserves what she gets. I can assure you, it wont be with OM. No freaking chance.

9


BITS
M-46
W-42
M-16y
T-19 y
s10 s15
BombDec.19/09
Sep-F16/10
Sep Papers signed by W- June 30/10
Recon July 5/10
PA foundOut- Oct 30/10
Mental HospNov/10
moved out Nov/10
Leg Sep Mar 15/11
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,031
D
Member
Offline
Member
D
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,031
Well said my friend. While I don't agree with everything in your post, I think that most of it is wisdom that we can all learn from. Whether or not your DB journey is truly over 2step, I KNOW that you will find happiness again regardless. I also know that you are a better person for having gone on this journey...

Talk to you soon man.

BITS
Denver


M 43
X 38
T 13
W moves out of home 11/2010
Roller coaster from hell 2/2011-5/2012
I request divorce 5/2012
W moves home 6/2012
Good time 7/2012 - 1/2015
I leave 3/2016
process of divorce
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,949
~
Member
Offline
Member
~
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,949
2step-

Your post is amazing. I actually teared up while reading this, because I find a lot of my answers to my questions in your post.

I do hope you pop in from time to time, you can offer so much to people like me who are really, really struggling.


"Everyone you meet has baggage. Find someone who loves you enough to help you unpack."
¤Formerly DelinquentGurl¤
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,511
Likes: 1
2
Member
Offline
Member
2
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,511
Likes: 1
2step,

your post reminded me of several important things. Like

THIS SITE!

Who knew I'd randomly stumble upon a book in the store, read it and then come to this "place"...

where I found people I'll likely never meet, who may have nothing in common with me

EXCEPT a terribly painful, ultimately beautiful journey...

these strangers, never to be met, who came to my aid in my dark hour of need...and made such a difference!

I am so grateful for the men & women I've met here. Truly. Your post reminded me of that upside

for regardless of what happens in our individual situations, THIS EXPERIENCE

of unknown anonymous people reaching out and lifting me up, is so valuable, it will always move me. At times, it felt holy.


You also discuss OM, your boundary and forgiveness. B/C this is you writing,

I won't belabor the whole forgiveness thing. I know You get it.


If it's a boundary that you simply cannot get past b/c there's something in you that doesn't allow for it, and you've examined this and must choose as you are, that's NOT the same as being punitive. It's a tough call with most people but not with you. (You're too honest for that poop.)


You have owned your part in your marital history and you are a better man for it. This, I know. And This, is very valuable.

I wonder about your comment re:how unforgivable her "stringing you along" was...

I offer a comment and a question.

My comment is that you are doing some serious mind reading/characterization of her behavior

which I am not sure is accurate or fair.

Plus it seems like gratuitously self inflicted pain & "stinkin' thinkin'" to me.

My Question is, even assuming you are right, why is that so "unforgivable"?

You can't believe she could be confused, retaining deep feelings for you while also thinking perhaps too much water had gone over the bridge?

Dare I ask, So what if she wanted to hedge her bets?

Is the "unforgivable" part of this, that you believed her to be working on YOU as a couple, while instead she was also pursuing OM and doing some comparison shopping?

I accept your objection to that. I just don't understand your reaction to it, unless you are saying "hey, I 'forgive' but I can't be married to her" which is very different than saying it's unforgivable. Sounds more like a deal breaker. I don't condemn atheists and have many friends who are, but I would never marry one. and that's fine. We don't have to agree. It's your life 2step. cool


Based on your lengthy & articulate history here, I sense you simply know you will not let the A go, and since that's
a deal breaker for you, and therefore it is. So be it.

As for fear...you said:


I believe that most of us act out of fear. Fear that they will leave us, stop calling, and leave with OM and so on and so on. It is this fear the stops us from making rational decisions. That allows the control of the sitch to shift in favor of one person and when that person has the control it is almost always exclusively exercised to manipulate and in some extreme cases to hurt. It is our love for them that allows us to stand and take this because of fear and blame.


First, I ask you this: Is the reason you can't abide by the OM in your w's life b/c of fear? Fear she'll do it again?

If you somehow KNEW that OM was out of the picture for good, what then? Second,

when you say "control is almost exclusively used to manipulate or hurt", I say "no, 2step, not so."

I cannot accept that statement as applying to the bulk of people here. The men and women I meet here may start out punitive and self righteous, but the ones who are loving & brave, never finish their journey that way.


Some argue that there are only two core emotions...fear and love. Anger, they say, stems from fear at some level. Fear of abandonment, loss of reputation, fear of having shame, fear of rejection, etc.

I don't know but I do buy that at our core, fear is huge in this.


When you operate in fear, you are not operating in faith.
I remind myself of that often.

At some point, anyone who marries is making a leap of faith and either losing the fear, or learning to live with it.

Fear is a partner to many gifts in life.

When I gave birth, along with the deepest sense of fulfilling purpose that I discovered within, came a quietly growing sense of terror...

As I held my baby and marvelled at it, I also began fearing the loss of, or damage to him...suddenly, ALL my nightmares and most daydreams were about the baby getting sick, abducted or having a fatal accident.

What a dichotomy!

Even with full trust, we can still lose our spouse to death.

So I say we learn to live with the fear of losing them or being hurt by them. This isn't only about LBSers.

Some of the WASs return b/c of fear or disappointment or rejection in the "outside world". Fear is certainly not unique to LBSers.

But so what? Fear can be linked to deep love in many scenarios, including what I just said about being a parent.


A Brave man is not defined as being a man without fear,

a brave man is the man who plunges forward despite the fear.


Anyone willing to fall in love and make a commitment, is a brave person.

The one who then KEEPS those commitments, is brave, strong, and forgiving person, and dang lucky.

And as you said, long term happy marriages have ALWAYS involved forgiveness of something big, at some point.

My elderly neighbor says she only counts 45 of her 48 year marriage b/c 3 of those years her h was "a real jerk"...

I didn't ask how jerky he was, but I know what she means. She forgave him, she loves him, they're old and cute together, but they did not enter their marriage having all the secrets...they worked it through, like we are all trying to do.

Forgiving Is not a skill we're born with. We have to learn it and God knows I never saw it growing up. My father would yell louder and then they'd retreat....

Never saw an apology until my father was on his death bed. Most of what he said in his final days was about the regrets he had, of which there were many. You won't be like that on your deathbed 2step.

Do you see what a gift your efforts will yield in ways that have nothing to do with your spouse?

THIS IS JUST SOME OF THE VALUE OF BRAVE INTROSPECTION AND GROWTH...which you've engaged in so valiantly.

2step,

I think your w will do a lot of 2nd guessing.

She will wonder about so many choices she made.

Unlike her, you know in your heart you gave it your best. That has value.

Sometimes you may wonder if you tried or hung in there, for too long.

I would rather have that "problem" - than to wonder if I'd tried too little.

We all wish you well 2step, and hope you DO keep posting.
(insert Southern accent here)

"We like how you talk"...so keep it up!


ps
FWIW, I didn't pick up vibes of blame in much of your post.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 332
G
Member
Offline
Member
G
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 332
2step



Top post my friend. I wish you all the best for your new journey, and hope you stay around to offer help and wisdom to others.


Me - 37
W - 38
D - 14
S - 12
Together - 16
Married - 12
Bomb - April 13, 2011
W moved out - May 13, 2011

The man I became is changing back to the man I was........... and more
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 622
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 622
2step:
Thank you for your words. They are truly meaningful. Best to you in your journey


H 51, W 46
no kids
T 22 years
M 17 years
ILBNILWY 2/10
1st D talk 6/10
partial recovery
W files D 5/11
long distance separation 8/11
moving forward on D 10/11
legal separation complete 1/2012
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 791
R
Member
Offline
Member
R
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 791
2Step, For the short time i have know you on these forums, I have learnt a great deal from you.

Don't look at this as some closing of a door, but instead as an opening of a new one.

As pointed out, you have looked back at your contributions to the failure of your relationship. That introspection and your changed attitude from it should guide you well in your future endeavors.

Good luck buddy!


BITS
M 38
W 36
D 7
Married 15 yrs
W left for 6 months in 2009
W Filed for D 01/03/11
piecing now...
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 430
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 430
I agree 2step with almost everything you said.


And I agree with most of what 25 said as well. Here is where I disagree.

"I wonder about your comment re:how unforgivable her "stringing you along" was...

I offer a comment and a question.

My comment is that you are doing some serious mind reading/characterization of her behavior"



All this about mind reading can be accurate, but let's not again ALWAYS look at it that way. She WAS stringing him along. And it's not always mind reading. How about intuition. A sense that something is not right. This is why I get all worked up at the view of the LBS. Again the LBS must look at the WAS differently. WE must give THEM the benefit of the doubt.




"which I am not sure is accurate or fair."


And there it is again... Really? 2step isn't being fair? To this I call foul! Absolute BS. and it AGAIN looks at the LBS as the person not being "fair". Again we bash the LBS no matter how much he/she improves and how much he/she does.




"My Question is, even assuming you are right, why is that so "unforgivable"?

You can't believe she could be confused, retaining deep feelings for you while also thinking perhaps too much water had gone over the bridge?

Dare I ask, So what if she wanted to hedge her bets?

Is the "unforgivable" part of this, that you believed her to be working on YOU as a couple, while instead she was also pursuing OM and doing some comparison shopping?"


With this comment I say that the moral compass of our society is doomed.


"Hedging her bets"?.........

"Comparison shopping"?........


PLEASE MAKE THE MADNESS STOP... She was a MARRIED WOMAN... She used 2step. She played with his emotions.


THAT in my opinion is an unforgivable act. That does not mean you can't forgive the person. But the act itself IS unforgivable.


And AGAIN we hold up the WAS in a higher regard and tell the LBS that the WAS did little wrong.



We can ALWAYS find someone "better" or "sweeter" or "nicer" or "prettier" or "richer"... We could always keep "trading up". Our spouses may not be the BEST for us. There are millions of people that may be better for us. There are no "soul mates".

But does that mean we should?

Does that mean we should "shop" until the next best thing comes along?



Listen, I have no problem taking my lumps for my hard line approach. I have no problem facing the firing squad.


But I do take issue with the constant bashing of the LBS.


I agree that 2step will be happier because of this journey. And he will find a woman that values him and will stay with him during the "bad" times. Because that's what we are SUPPOSED to do. "For better or worse"...

Because window shopping is not an option...


M: 42 - W: 41 - M: 18 - T: 23 - D:16 S:14
EA - July 2010
NC w/EA - Nov 2010
Piecing - Jan 2011
I ask for div - Jan 2012
Div papers filed - Mar 2012
I move out - July 2012
Divorce final - Nov 7, 2012
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,408
G
Member
Offline
Member
G
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,408
This is just ANOTHER example of how the "hanging in there" approach is a recipe for failure...

You say you tried everything. No you didn't.

You didn't try letting go and moving on and getting tough...

Just another example that allowing someone to carry on an affair and not getting tough dooms the relationship by a slow slow drip.....

Page 1 of 12 1 2 3 11 12

Moderated by  Cadet, DnJ, job, Michele Weiner-Davis 

Link Copied to Clipboard