It's Over

[♪CS♪]

Apparenlty I f'd up yesterday and should have just accepted that my W has renewed an A with OM. And not said or done anything.

Is that what the consensus is?

First of all, the choice is yours, and yours alone, but the 'consensus' has nothing to do with the opinions on what already happened. You can take everyone's opinion on that, including your own and throw them out the window. It doesn't matter, it's done.

What was being referred to is that many here have the same opinion one what you should start doing NOW. And that is, step away, remove yourself from this situation, and get back to YOU.

You said a lot of things to your W, and to a point you did paint yourself into a corner. Now I agree that you do not need to file for a D TODAY. I think you can keep your credibility by simply walking away. And credibility aside, it was what YOU need right now anyways.

The consensus is that I have no contact with W. Yes. But is that the right thing?

Right for what? Right for who? But maybe a better way to think about it, how will contact help? What words will fix this?

Yep. I have no idea what I want right now. Not to be in emotional pain 24/7? That would be a start.

Will more conversations like the one you had with your W help or hurt in obtaining this goal?

But are we suppose to wait forever? This is my confusion. Where I am stuck.

Don't wait at all. Get your head on straight. Get your emotional balance back. Find things to work on. Continue to improve. This isn't waiting. This is working. Doing.

I have no doubt it will not be "forever" but it is also not a definable timeline. That is what you need to let go of.

This DOES have you stuck.

You still want to fix the M, and have it be fixed on a timeline you can set.

[Denver_2010]

Thank you for that 2Step.

BITS
Denver

[ericmsant2]

Denver

I want to take some time to think about everything that you said.

Take as much time as you need Denver. The actions that you are pursing right now will have an impact on your life FOREVER. How they impact your life is really up to you and not anything that you should rush into.

And I acknowledge much of what you said about me taking responsibility for my role and my actions.

You know Denver, I used to say the same thing. I used to tell or better yet post that I was controlling, I was jealous, I was this, I was that. What I can tell you is that it took a tremendous amount of energy to really feel my role in the demise of my M. Let me not kid you, most people will acknowledge their role on the surface. They will not come to look and feel it from your spouses perspective. IF they did, many would not rush to file. They would understand the true impact of the actions they took. I for one, had to spend many a nights crying myself to sleep. Was I beating myself up…yeah a bit…but it was something I needed to go through. Something I needed to feel to make ME realize where I failed and where I needed to change. Not to get my W back…nah…she was busy f*cking her boss. Nope…I needed…no…WANTED to make these change in ME. Not for her. Nope. Initially yes, the changes were for her..but as I peeled back the layers of my role in the M, the more I realized just how fu*ked up I was. The more I realized just how controlling I was. The more I realized that I did not understand unconditional love. When that realization came, I was able to forgive myself and her. Was I still angry…Ayep. Do I sometime still get angry? Yep. BUT I can say, that I came to understand my behaviors and therefore I was able to change them.

So Denver, can you feel how you were controlling? Do you understand what controlling really is in an R? Oh, and for the record, saying to your W that she will NOT be a part of your life while she is fu*king someone is NOT controlling – that Denver is a boundary. TELLING HER SHE CANNOT fu*k someone else, especially given the sitch you are in is CONTROLLING.

But what you said about this not happening on my timeline?

Just so that you know I work for an Investment Management company…do you know the market usually does not work on my timeline. I mean chit I wanted to short a few names but the market moved against me. What I found I needed to do…was not set a timeline…but look at the overall condition of the market and do what I FELT best for my clients. So, what is best for YOU and YOUR W? And don’t tell me for her to come home right now. That Denver would be your ego speaking. What may be good for BOTH of YOU….is TIME. But then again, you must give up control in order to accept that things will happen when and if they are suppose to happen. FTR, my lawyer reminded me of this not to long ago…..She said, “Eric there is a process, and the process will happen at the time the process will happen”. This was really hard to grasp as a former control freak.

I know that you and others who have said that are right.

How do you know I am right? What leads you to think that I am right? I am after all just a Rican from NY. That said, I think I am right….but do you know why you feel that I am right? Answer this for yourself.

But at what point do you take action to jar your WAS into doing some real thinking and reflection themselves?

<insert picture of ericmsant2 standing in a crowed room>…”hi I want to introduce myself, my name is Eric and I am a control freak”. You see I want to “JAR” (replace with force, manipulate, etc) my STBXW into doing what I WANT HER TO DO WHEN I WANT HER TO DO IT. Does this seem a little controlling to you Denver?

BTW, I WANT YOU DENVER TO FLY TO CT and COME VISIT ME…RIGHT NOW…THIS VERY second. No I don’t care about what you feel…I want what I want and I want it now. HOW does this sound Denver? What is difference between this ^^^^ and your quote?

At what point are they to do that?

WHEN and IF they decide to do it. You see Denver, your W is living her life. She is doing things on HER terms and that buddy pisses you off. Right? Hmmm…I guess so. I mean are we not all responsible for our own actions? Are we not all responsible to live the way we want to live? I say yes. That said, I Denver, made a choice…to live my life a certain way and to let my W live hers the way she saw fit. I did not want a divorce and DID not file. Why? Cause honestly dude, when I became real with myself I realized that SHE gave me much more time….than I was giving her. I did not file because I was not ready to. I did not file because I had people smacking me upside the head helping me to see, that what I wanted was my M back…and I wanted my life. Let her go Denver….Work and focus on YOU. Stop looking at her. Stop expecting her to all of sudden snap out it. Oh…and if you think the divorce threats will work….your wrong. They only show her that you continue to be a controlling pric*. No, I say distance yourself, heal, work on yourself, protect yourself and leave her the f alone………………..FOR NOW.

But are we suppose to wait forever?

AND what would her answer be if I asked her? What If I Iasked her how long she waited for you to change? What would she say? That aside, her answers should not change yours. IF this helps……

I stood waiting for mine for almost 2 years. FTR, she gave me 18 years.

Another way to look at it….how much do you really love her? You say you do? BUT do your actions support that? Hmmm…….

This is my confusion. Where I am stuck.

You are stuck because YOU are here ONLY to get her BACK. When you stop focusing on getting her back on YOUR timeline…you will begin to unstuck yourself.

What is it that you want Denver? How much are you willing to pay for it? The price should NOT be your soul….or your man card. No…but what would a real man do in this sitch? What type of man does Denver want to be. ONCE again, I am not saying that you should allow her to come home and f*ck the next door neighbor while you watch. No – clear boundaries buddy.

I’ll tell ya what I would do….if I sooooooo loved this women…..I would pour a large glass of STFU (shut the F up), start to figure out what things about myself I do not like…(like maybe being controlling, which is really you holding YOURSELF hostage), start changing them, start healing, living my life and IF and WHEN the time comes, show her the man you have become. Oh…and I sure as hell would not set a timeline. The time will come when it comes…but then again, I’m not controlling anymore.

And much of it is right

F right! I’m here because DB is a way of life buddy. I saved myself and for this….I can honestly thank my wife.

My pride, my ego, my pain... all very large within me right now.

Pride has a time and a place as does ego. For example, I pride myself at the work that I do. I do not let my pride stop me from saying sorry, I do not let my pride force me into a corner.

I DON'T know what to do.

Control freak lesson # 2….when you do not know what to do, and do not HAVE to do something….well then DO NOTHING. You see, sometimes doing nothing is doing something. But if you want to control everything you will not see it that way. You will see yourself as a victim, see yourself helpless. That buddy is the control freak in you that you are fighting. Man, once you let it go….you are FREE……..AND here is the cool thing….so is EVERYONE ELSE In your LIFE…Including YOUR W. She is now free to make the choice that she wants to make AND that choice Denver COULD BE YOU.

Did I make a mistake yesterday? BAckslide? Maybe. I am human. It doesn't diminish the work that i have done. Nor does it take away from what I have learned about myself. At least IMO.

No it does not Denver….BUT the fact that you felt the need to point it out tells me that you probably have an issue with always feeling the need to defend yourself. A bad habit that often times gets us into sitch that we wished we were not it. FTR, I am not saying to never defend yourself…No…what I am saying is that HOW you do it is what matter most.

For example….say your W comes to you and says that you were wrong for driving by her house and spying on her. If you respond with you are right BUT I wanted to see if you were seeing someone else. Well that may not be the best way to defend yourself. Can you see why?

Denver, I want everything in your life to work out. These things take time, they take work…a lot of work. Are you up for it? Can you push aside the ego?

Can you tell your friend co-worker, everyone to mind their fuc*ing business? Can you make a choice today….to stop controlling chit? Can you make a choice today to stop trying to manipulate?

If you can promise yourself to stop these behaviors today….well then you have a lot of work to do next.

Let me know what you decide….

Some others may be able to tell you how to reach me….

You got this dude….stop defending your need to control. Stop saying you hear the advice but do the opposite….just stop….

And….

Think about your W……

Think about why you are here….

Think about what YOUR goals are……

Then breath…and do nothing tonight….just think…..

For better or for worse….

Give it everything you have Denver…..you will not regret it! That my friend I can promise you.

God Bless,
Eric

[Denver_2010]

You still want to fix the M, and have it be fixed on a timeline you can set.

Damn. You are right CS. I am stuck on this.

BITS
Denver

[cat04]

Denver,

Today has been a long, emotional, day full of traveling for me after a very busy weekend...

So forgive me if I stray a bit...

I actually only came on to check on a friend who posted to you earlier (sorry E, didn't even get to read your novel...)

I know I come across as a total hard a$$ sometimes...

I challenge, irritate, whatever you want to call it...

I have been through this process with anger and bitterness, and I have been through it with love...

The second option was actually much harder but much more rewarding and I don't second guess my decisions now (like I did the first time)...

I just want you to be sure with whatever choice you make...

and if that means drawing on my experience, sometimes playing devil's advocate...

I'm ok with that...

Here is a funny...

In H's first go round, I found another woman's underwear, in some laundry that he brought in from his car for me to wash...

I know exactly what it said to me...what it still says to me...I mean, I like to think I'm not stupid...

However, the possibilities of how they got there, are numerous....

He denied, I took them to OW, showed them to her, she denied (and I don't think they were the right size for her)...anyway...maybe there was a second or third ow that neither I nor first ow knew about, maybe an alien landed in his car and left them, IDK...

What I do know is that for me, it wasn't my line in the sand...

Some days I wish it had been...

We all have to determine that for ourselves and we have to be able and ready to live with the consequences of OUR choices...

I know, people say the consequences of THEIR bad decisions etc...but the truth behind that statement is a question of who defines what a bad decision is...

And since we can only control ourselves, it is our reactions and actions that are the only ones that really matter...

Just be sure that you are doing right for you...

Not out of anger, not out of some strange sense of being disrespected (which must be a male concept because I just do NOT get it), not out of hurt...

Removing yourself from the equation, is not what I question, if it is what you need to do for you to heal...

It is the WHY and the HOW that I have issue with...

I will never advocate being a doormat, however I don't believe digging deep within and doing what is right for YOU, whether it goes against what other people think is right or not, is being a doormat...

When you decide that you are doing what is right for you and you believe it whole heartedly, you won't have to explain or convince anyone (except maybe Jack, cuz he is more of a devil's advocate than I am)...

One other thing, I agree with 25, I didn't really see too many 2x4's today...

Just people who don't want to see you do something you will regret...

[gucci loafer]

Denver,

Have you gone back and actually STUDIED Jack Three Beans threads?

Do you realize that his wife didn't come back UNTIL he told her he was done? (and meant it)

(1/25/06) Jack’s back?

Well no. Not really, not the way I was…before. Being here was really interfering with my job and duties, and well lets see a single parent needs to keep the source of income they have.

Plus several things were hitting me all at once. I had given up computer games, but I still found myself spending a huge amount of time on the computer, still being a ‘dad’ by default. I had traded my computer game addiction for cruising the boards.

I was having a hard time looking at the amount of time this was going to take. Weeks, months, years? Exactly what example was I showing my boys? The one where love is seen as allowing a person to walk all over you, do what they wish and then you welcome them back with open arms? To that end, how much respect does this gather to me? My wife wouldn’t respect me on that, and my boys? My boys…

This was after he had tried the (just be her friend and let her do whatever she wanted as long as she wanted and take her time routine. (which didn't work)

Jack then posted this:

I found myself a hypocrite. I snooped. I had access to both OM and my W’s email accounts. MY worst fears were realized. After months of not doing anything…I snooped. I can say it is human nature, but, I was a hypocrite. Suggesting what other people should do, but not being able to follow my own advice…

Yes they were lovers, in fact I still believe they are as of this moment. She was writing him things she once had said to me. He was writing her things…well… 50 years ago this story would have a different ending one with a wood chipper and a lye pit.

Pop-eye once said “I’ve had all I can stands and I can’t stands no more!” He would then down a can of slimy spinach and destroy Bluto.

Same as you. Jack had deceived himself from his first post in January of 06 until he finally had found out the truth.. THERE WAS AN OM. AND THEY WERE IN A RELATIONSHIP... It was only THEN that Jack was able to FINALLY make the CORRECT decision which was the BEGINNING of his WAW coming back..

She went to California and Colorado for a month. I knew during this time that OM was going to be with her for 9 days of that time. I was hoping that this was a last fling, a good-bye, we need to stop this sort of thing.

It wasn’t, in my mind, after reading further emails. Nothing was going to change when she got back.

My last resort. The end. Over.The Last Resort has to be real. There is no trick to it. I was done. I WAS DONE. Nothing was surer in my mind. I deserved better than this, my boys deserved better than this.
Lis, told you what I did, but not all of it. I packed up all of her clothes all her incidentals and put them in her storage unit. I started my own bank account and took all of the checking and half of the savings. I knew that I was going to splitting half of my boys life with my wife. I owed them to see what a strong man was, to have the chance to see what a real relationship was, not this farce my marriage had become.

I told my oldest that when mommy came home, that we would not be living together anymore. That this was not about him, we both loved and his brother very much, this was about Mommy and Daddy and we were fighting and hurting each other with words and lying to each other, and adults unlike kids…usually didn’t make up after they fight like we do. When we grow up we lose that somewhere, and maybe we shouldn’t but we do. I spent a lot of time with him, and he took this all well.

Same place as you Denver... Looks over huh?
It wasn't going to EVER turn around UNTIL Jack finally got tough. The proof of that is in the results. Go back and read his thread. I can't believe he isn't actually telling you of this happeing to him. He snooped. Said he was NOT sorry. Didn't apologize. We know that those actions not only didn't ruin his relationship, but were the catalyst to his being SAVED. If he wouldn't have done that he would now be divorced.
Hanging in there BACKFIRES. It only allows cake eating and paiin and lowers your self esteem because you feel WALKED ON.. What kind of progress is that for someone? anyone?

My wife and I talked on the phone. And in Emails. It was horrible. I have an incredible amount of patience, but I was screaming at times, one night I hung up twice on her, and I told her that if I hung up a third time I was pulling the plug. I told her I knew everything and she was mad that I had read the emails, to which I still will not apologize for.

We took a few days off from even trying to talk with each other.

From here to there and back again.

We started talking nicely. I still saw another Lawyer. She was upset but said she understood, she had wanted to see him together, I said ummm No. That Lawyer will be mine, I found one who would be willing to get dirty if it got ugly, that is the one I wanted.

We kept talking nicer, softer with each other.

We paused in our rush to destroying our life together. Or in my mind, jumping off of this cliff edge. My feet were dangling over the edge for me.

I was mad at myself for even wanting to trust her. Trust her with the things she was saying, that sounded exactly like the things she said in Dec. and Jan, and Feb and March and April. I told her this. I asked her if I was a fool, if I was stupid or an idiot for trusting her again, or wanting to. She said no.

She said that if either one was lying to the other now, it was only prolonging this torture.
She said that she walked in my shoes, and realized that she would have done the same things. She said that she still could only see growing old with me. And the worst thing she could say about me, was my absence in the computer.

This isn't unusual Denver. It is the norm of what happens when a man finally tells a woman who is cake eating.. ENOUGH. I am done. It doesn't have to be mean. Just firm and with resolve.

Denver, I have been doing this for going on 30 years. You need to get STRONG with her and let her finally believe you may be DONE with the whole thing. What you have been doing isn't working for you any better than it did for Jack Three Beans when he was too nice. It doesn't work Denver. When a woman says she wants space, it is ALWAYS best to not only give them space, but to ALLOW them to think that maybe, just maybe they have TAKEN up too much space and overdone it... IT is human nature..

It was ONLY when Jack finally PULLED the plug and allowed her to FEEL IT AND BELIEVE it that she drifted back WITHOUT him asking for it.....

Be wise.... Hanging in there rarely works. Rarely. It isn't working for you and hasn't been working. Try another approach.
You are being wishy washy. Wishy washy is VERY UNATTRACTIVE..

The truth is that your wife will secretly respect you for not sharing. BANK on it.



[edited by dbmod to add note: 'Hanging in there' works for many folks and isn't wishy/washy or unattractive. What 'works' is different for many different people.]

[25yearsmlc]

Denver,

CS's post, among others, is spot on. Denver, I know you are a good man...but

This "timeline" of [i]yours[/i] for how long it'll take HER to change her heart... is BS.

There's a fine line between a boundary and being controlling. Try to find it.

Sometimes, Hope can be paralyzing. That's when you spend your time "waiting"

but as CS points out you do NOT have to be "waiting"...Change, work on you, and stop the whole "how long am I waiting?" Mantra. (Get a new mantra!)

If it turns out that you cannot forgive this, or get past it, or let go of the fact that she is with OM, no one will judge you.

It's a deal breaker for some people, and some of us don't know what the dealbreakers are til we smash into them, face first. Then we say, "oh damn, THIS is MY dealbreaker...here..."

We get it. It's just that you need to make sure that's what it is, as opposed to the pride and punishing aspects (present in all of us).

Timeline??? FTR, I was sep for 2 years with some confusing touch & go's...I mean, come on Man....it's been what? 1/4 of that?

I had 2 girls at home and h was 3000 miles away and we had NO CONTACT for days at a time, til he came out of the fog...(that was about 16 months into it.)

The no contact for 7 days, will be harder for you than you expect.
You asked what it would do for you or the situation?

And I think Eric asked the real question, which is what will MORE of this contact do?

You seem to think "this time" you'll say the right thing and it will go well. But you are not ready and God knows she's not.

She's too angry now. So are you. Do you really think contacting her soon will somehow make things better? Why? Have you revamped your whole persona and outlook? I doubt it.

Of course it needs to be longer, but I'm being real. You do it one day or 1 week, at a time.

And then maybe, you renew. Like 90 days of DBing...now you do the No contact for a week...SHELVE THE NEED TO REACH OUT TO HER...FOR NOW...

at least it is something...different, and if you want "the consensus" it's that no contact now is mandatory.

Though there were some backslides, for me the no contact was overall, easier with time, as you adjust to NOT having her in your everyday life.


You must do that. It's real, it is what it is.
And she needs to see this perhaps even more than you...

As for where or who you'll be when you reach "the other side" of this, in a way, I can't wait to find out.

I think you will be "Denver, at his best".

[Denver_2010]

For what it's worth, I think this incident could have illuminated a way out of Denver's personal hell.

As terrible as the whole evening has been at least it has brought some clarity to the situation. In addition to the awful pain, I imagine it must be a bit of relief to be done with the gaslighting.

Ms. Denver seems to have used her righteous anger to justify stringing Denver along and periodically abusing him. I can completely relate to why, on some level, Denver may feel that going along with that for awhile was a kind of amends he was making for his failures in the marriage. In my view that can be put to an end now.

Your post made a lot of sense to me ED. A way out of my hell? Yeah, I think that what has happened has given me an opportunity to reverse my W's righteous anger and her justification for stringing me along. It may not turn out the way that I hope, with reconciliation of M, but I no longer feel that I owe amends for my behavior in my M. I need to keep up the changes that I have been working on for sure. But I have suffered enough for my transgressions in my M.

In my opinion, every word Denver says now will just delay the day she puts her head in her hands and says 'what have I done?'.

I take it that you think that I should back away and have no contact with W as well ED? As 25 pointed out, that is the consensus. It is also how I plan to proceed. Will W come to the point that she puts her head in her hands and says 'what have I done?' I think so... eventually. I really do. I just don't know if I am still around for her to fix it.

I think if he leaves her alone, files, and solidifies himself, she may well come back. Just my take.

Part of me hopes that you are right. Part of me doesn't care at this point. I do plan on leaving her alone and working towards solidifying myself. If she comes back, then I have a choice to make. I guess that I will simply cross that bridge if and when I come to it.

It might be possible, given your somewhat shared view that the marriage certificate is just a piece of paper, to just walk away without filing and keep your credibility. If you think you can, I would recommend that option.

In my view absolutely nothing good can come from further contact with your wife right now. I hope you will stop and give both yourselves time to process what's happened here.

I think Jack's correct, re-set your clock to 90 days and take a series of deep, deep breathes.

I think that I have to walk away without filing papers for now. That may be a hit to my credibility. But I don't see that I have a viable choice bc I am not ready to file for D. My credibility and coming across as manipulative is just a chance that I'm going to have to take. Hopefully W will see it for what it is, me saying things that I didn't necessarily mean when I was upset.

I agree. No contact for the time being. Again, no choice IMO.

I'm going to reset the clock to at least 30 days and maybe up to 90 before I contemplate taking any big action.

In the meantime, I'm going to do my best to live my life for me and move on.

I am going to be honest and say that I am thinking about dating at this time. I am curious what others think of that idea??

I empathise deeply with your situation Denver, I'll explain why when I have more time (in a criminal trial myself right now) and I'm wishing you the best.

I would love to hear your story ED and why you relate to my situation. When you have the chance.

thanks for stopping by. I really appreciate it man!

Denver

[Denver_2010]

It's just that you need to make sure that's what it is, as opposed to the pride and punishing aspects (present in all of us).

That's what I don't know 25. And that's why I'm not going to file for D now. I've decided to give this some time. With no contact... I agree.

[Denver_2010]

Quick Update...

W texted me during her lunch break today at around noon...

W: "Please leave my mail in the mailbox. I will pick it up when I can. I would also like to take the pool key for the summer. If you need one also, then we need to buy one from the HOA. You have all their information so I will let you contact them. Let me know where the key will be for me to pick up. Thx."

-----

I did not respond. Why my W needed to text this to me today and during her lunch break I have no idea. I guess she's making a point. Whatever.

BITS
Denver