Puppy, I also appreciate how you help those on this site. Your synopsis that began this thread is so easy to understand, and it will clarify a plan of action for many people.
But...
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
No, "independent" verification includes keylogger, voice-activated recorder, cellphone detailed billing invoices, looking at cellphone text message content, GPS on their car, etc.
I know this is an unpopular view, but I personally would think twice about using some of these intel methods. In some cases, I think it's better to just jump to 2B.
Reasons:
1) LBS becomes obsessive and spends a lot of time trying to find EA/PA which doesn't help detachment 2) LBS doesn't improve him/herself by ... what I see as 'lowering' oneself to invade the WAS' space
Yes, it's awful of the WAS to break trust first with infidelity, etc etc. But sometimes that doesn't justify the LBS going to the level as well.
That's my opinion, I know many of you disagree, but I want to throw it out there.
me, 30 WH, 29 D born June 2010 M: July 2001 Bomb/S: 1/14/10 Done with it all.
You had my prayers already, but more so now. I know there's NOTHING I can tell YOU about how to stay tough, so just know I'm pulling for you.
And as to St. Peter, well, I never thought of it that way. I still don't want to meet him right now, but when I do, I look forward to lighting one up with him.
God Bless Pard.
ADAPT. OVERCOME. IMPROVISE. -Tom Highway
Me: 43 W: 40 S12 & S9 Married 17yrs Together 20yrs
I'll think I'll light up a Gurka Black Dragon tonight in salute of your landmark.
Me 31 Wife 34 (Step)D 15 /(Step)S 13 / D 6 Married 3/3/01 Separated 6/4/10 Bomb 6/14/10 Served 6/22/10 EA/PA Discovered 7/5/10 Now Back Together 8/1/10
excellent job educating people here about the "rules" and dynamics of relationships.
Hope you have another 17,000 posts. We all know there's an endless supply of us.
Bomb 8/09. Brief piecing 12/10. D-2/12 Two incredible kids D9,S6 Leading new life! “Success is not to be pursued; it is to be attracted by the person we become."
I've never personally understood why someone would NOT want to gain the TRUTH about what's going on in their marraige, and -- by extension -- in their family. Yes, I do get the "some people can't handle the truth" thing, but for those I usually either advocate that they LEARN to better handle it, or, they only check the intel, say, 1x/week or 2x/month, OR, they ask a trusted third party to monitor the raw intel for them and report to them only what is needed.
From my personal archives:
On snooping “makes you nuts” – I say just the opposite! :
You know, it's funny, but every time I get into one of our frequent "Snooping is bad!" debates around here (I am very pro-intel, as you all know), one of the arguments that the anti-snooping crowd always give is, basically, "It'll make you nuts!"
I contend just the opposite. Us humans are wired to fear -- to "go nuts" -- over the UNKNOWN, not the KNOWN.
Ronald Reagan said, of the Soviets, "Trust -- but verify." It is in that verification that we can either find STRENGTH AND PEACE OF MIND (if nothing is going on), or KNOWLEDGE AND DISCERNMENT about the right course of action (if something is).
For the life of me, I can't see anything wrong with that.
Pro’s and Con’s of “Snooping”:
1. to verify initially whether or not there is infidelity involved in your sitch, so that you can attack it appropriately.
2. to establish evidence/grounds for a possible divorce action if yours is a "fault" state.
3. to gather evidence for a possible custody battle, and to help you make a determination as to whether or not you SHOULD go for custody (is the cheating spouse engaging in risky behavior that would make them a poor parent in their current state).
4. to determine what it is that OM/OW is providing your spouse, so that you may begin to better provide it. To determine what OM/OW is doing that ticks your spouse off, so that you can avoid those behaviors.
5. as an early warning system for any possible financial or legal threats.
6. to monitor what outside pressures are having an affect on your spouse (her parents, her friends, your adult children, etc.).
7. to determine if the affair has gotten physical (medical risk).
8. to verify no-contact once no-contact and transparency have been agreed to as part of reconciliation.
9. to determine the extent to which you believe OM/OW may be a risk to your spouse and/or your family (ex.: abuse, unstable behavior, etc.).
10. to expose deceitful tactics of the cheating spouse which, if unverified, may lead you to make false assumptions and tactical errors (ex.: cheating spouse says they want to go to MC to try to work on reconciling the marriage, but they confide to a BF that they are only doing it to buy time while they squirrel away marital assets to be used on a divorce).
Those are some "pro's" just off the top of my head.
On the "con" side, all I can come up with is:
1. If you don't control your emotions, you may not be able to handle it.
I'm sorry, this whole "snooping is BAD!" thing, to me, is just one of those mantras that gets mindlessly repeated, until it becomes part of the official catechism, without stopping to consider the real merits of it.
Puppy
I suppose you can safely try "2b", regardless of the accuracy of the sitch, but you'd HAVE to have good intel to try "2a," and since some form of "2a" is what almost every infidelity expert out there (Glass, Tupy, Harley, McGraw, et al) recommends when dealing with an affair, you'd HAVE to know the truth about OM/OW.
2) LBS doesn't improve him/herself by ... what I see as 'lowering' oneself to invade the WAS' space
I'd like to address this point specifically.
It is not "lowering oneself" to do what is necessary to protect your family. In fact, if I may go out on a limb, if we're talking about a potentially cheating wife/betrayed husband situation, I'd go so far as to say it is the man's RESPONSIBILITY to protect his family from predators.
And make no mistake, an OP is, by definition, a PREDATOR.
Do you not protect what comes into your home? Via the television, or the internet for example? Is it "invading the space" of a teenager to check their room for drugs, if you have reason to suspect they're using them?
For the record, I am ONLY in favor of doing this where there is "probable cause," and even then, only for some finite amount of time (as outlined in my post above). I don't think, for example, that you go into your marriage monitoring your spouse's activity, all in the name of "protecting the marital home." But when you have a reasonable suspicion, based upon their behavior, possibly coupled with some prior infidelity on their part?
I see you're passionate about this point; I get it, and I am too. I am writing for if there's anyone out there like me only in a more vulnerable spot (like I was back at bomb-time).
Your advice works almost all of the time. But in some cases, it may just be better to 2B right away. I think it was better for me. I'm glad that I didn't become a PI. And my marriage *might* be 'saved'!
Now when WH and I are in MC, I might learn of infidelities. But I'd much rather hear it from him than snoop it out myself.
My way isn't for everyone. I think folks should think it through and go with their gut.
me, 30 WH, 29 D born June 2010 M: July 2001 Bomb/S: 1/14/10 Done with it all.
Can't give you enough thanks for all that you do. To receive sound, proven advice at a time when your world is collapsing and you are extremely vunerable....is priceless.
This board is a better place (than it already is due to others like you) because of your presence.
M 33, W 30, SD 10, D 5, S 4
Made it through the WAW, living happily together now. And I am much wiser for it!
Can't give you enough thanks for all that you do. To receive sound, proven advice at a time when your world is collapsing and you are extremely vunerable....is priceless.
This board is a better place (than it already is due to others like you) because of your presence.
Couldn't have said it better myself,
(I think you know who I borrowed those whistles from)
