After a rather disappointing "date" with STBXW, we're back to "let's just let this D go through".
This whole second thoughts business of hers appears to be something I put too much significance on. She seems to still be focused on what she is feeling all of the time and claims to be "intuitive" and proceeds to tell me what I am thinking and feeling, and all of that (what she thinks I am thinking and feeling) is like some WAW script that has nothing whatsoever to do with what I am thinking or feeling.
What I get from this is that she doesn't really care what I am thinking or feeling, and like her EA it is based primarily on projection (e.g. she is very egocentric, and her "intuition" is really just all about what she is feeling and nothing more).
Is this normal or just an example of extreme emotional immaturity?
M-47,W-40,No kids D-filed 5/27/2010 Piecing - 10/21/2010 -=Soon to be banned=-
Mind-reading is a classic mistake in conflict.. right up there with name calling, shouting, and lying
When someone goes wayward it just gets worse...
Has she been practicing mind-reading throughout the marriage or is this just since waywardness set in?
If its long term then yes it is immaturity on her part.
Just counter with :
We are out of touch with each other and neither of us should be claiming to know what the other is thinking. It's also insulting to sit here to have a conversation and have you clumsily try to predict what is going to come out of my mouth.
When you want to have a conversation let me know. But I am not going to sit here and be insulted like that.
You are just being negative. If you can't find the maturity to control your negative outbursts and aggression then you need to find a good family therapist to hep you with that.
I dunno something like that...
I think Dr Phil had a thing on mind reading.. let me look for it
I found this piece, which is from his book which is just as good :
Every one of us has an irrational and destructive emotional side to our personality. This dark side can sabotage your relationship in an insidious way.
Below are the most common characteristics of what Dr. Phil calls "bad spirits," and how they can impact a relationship.
You're a Scorekeeper Competing can quickly turn a relationship into an ugly battle of one-upmanship. How can you possibly be a winner if it is at the expense of making the person you supposedly love a loser? Solid relationships are built on sacrifice and caring, not power and control. Competitiveness can drain the joy, confidence and productivity out of any relationship.
You're a Faultfinder There is nothing wrong with constructive criticism if it is designed to improve the relationship. But it can often give way to constant faultfinding -- in which you obsess over the flaws and imperfections rather than find value in your partner. Get off your partner's back and you may see your partner moving toward you.
You Think It's Your Way or the Highway If you've always got to be right, then you're ready to fight till the end. No truer words were ever spoken, says Dr. Phil; you will fight to the end...the end of your relationship. You can't be self-righteous or obsessed with control and do what's best for the relationship at the same time.
You Turn Into an Attack Dog When you get in an argument, do you have a killer stare, a harsh tone and hurtful words? Attack dogs may experience short-term gain, but the target of the abuse becomes filled with bitterness and resentment. While it's easy to fall into viciousness, it's much harder to repair the resulting consequences.
You are a Passive Warmonger Instead of fault-finding or engaging in character assassination, these toxic partners try to thwart their partner by constantly doing that which they deny they are doing -- in such an indirect way as to escape accountability if they are confronted. A passive aggressive person is as much of an overbearing controller as the most aggressive, in-your-face person you could imagine -- only they do it insidiously and underhandedly.
You Resort to Smoke and Mirrors Because you lack the courage to get real about what is driving the pain and problems in your relationship, you criticize your partner about one thing when you're really upset about another. What is real never gets voiced, and what gets voiced is never real. The real issues will eventually burst forth in a torrid way.
You Will Not Forgive When you choose to bear anger at your partner, you trap yourself in pain and agony -- and the negative energy can crowd every other feeling out of your heart. If you wallow in resentment and refuse to forgive and move on, you will tear up your own life and your relationship. You can't change the past but you can deal with the resulting feelings and hurt by truly forgiving.
You Are the Bottomless Pit Are you so needy that you constantly undermine your chances of success? Can you never get enough satisfaction, love, attention or appreciation? Your partner will be frustrated by never seeming able to "fill you up." We all want reassurance, but an insatiable appetite for it never gives your partner any rest. Free yourself from the internalized sense of inadequacy, and find other ways to feel your self-worth and value.
You're Too Comfortable If you're in a comfort zone, you are failing to meet your responsibilities in the relationship. You aren't contributing, you aren't stimulating, and you aren't energizing. If you don't make a move, it becomes easier and easier to stagnate.
You've Given Up When so many bad spirits crowd your life, you cannot imagine there being any way out. You become so forlorn, lonely, isolated, negative, cynical and far from your core of consciousness that you believe you are trapped. Be strong enough to confront your problems instead of giving up.
Mind-reading is a passive aggresive behaviour. She doesn't want to have an argument with you, so she scripts the whole thing in her head beforehand and tells you what you will say so she can avoid the conflict tall together...
It's hostile.
The best way to handle it is to STOP her when she starts it and tell her you will walk away if she starts that
Has she been practicing mind-reading throughout the marriage
Yes, and from what she has told me, she did a significant bit of it in her prior marriage. Also, she had a problem holding a job for long because rather than tell people what she was feeling and try to clear misunderstandings up, she used to to quite a bit of mind reading there too, but she has made progress with that on this current job.
M-47,W-40,No kids D-filed 5/27/2010 Piecing - 10/21/2010 -=Soon to be banned=-
Gottman has some stuff to say and puts it under "defensiveness" which I think is about right :
THE FOUR HORSEMEN OF THE APOCALYPSE.
After studying couples that wound up divorced, Gottman found that their arguments and conflicts had four things in common that almost guaranteed that a marriage would fail. He called them The Four Horsemen. And he had a 94% prediction rate.
So here they are:
CRITICISM. The First Horseman shows itself by attacking and blaming your spouse’s personality or character. For instance: “You are just lazy! You never take out the trash!” Criticism seems to be close to complaining, but it is different. It is an attack on the very nature of the person in question. Complaining is about expressing anger, displeasure, distress or disagreement about your spouse behavior or an event.
You can tell the difference by the way it is said: Criticism begins by saying “YOU are…. (fill in the blanks)” while a complaint starts the sentence with “I...(need, don’t like, etc.)”
CONTEMPT is the Second Horseman. Here the intention is to insult and psychologically abuse your partner. Here are some examples of this:
Insults and name-calling.
Hostile Humor - using contemptuous jokes or stories.
Mockery - the subtle put-down.
Negative Body Language such as sneering and rolling your eyes.
DEFENSIVENESS. The Third Horseman is evident when our automatic response to thinking we are being attacked is to react defensively. This may have been a lifesaver when we were running from wild creatures in pre-historic times. But when it occurs in arguments, it only escalates the conflict.
Here are some behaviors to look for, in yourself and others:
Denying Responsibility - “I’m not to blame.”
Making Excuses, - “I couldn’t help it. There were forces beyond my control…." "The dog ate my homework!”
Disagreeing with Negative Mind-Reading - Mind-reading shows up when one person says they know what you’re thinking. If you start to argue about what they think you’re thinking, the whole thing spirals out of control. “You think I’m lying. Well… I’m not.” They may not be thinking that at all.
The Rubber Man/Rubber Woman Game - This is reminiscent of the childish saying “I’m rubber; you’re glue. Whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you!”
STONEWALLING is the Fourth and most devastating Horseman. This happens when one spouse shuts down and erects a brick wall to end the argument. It turns out men do this more than women, probably because men are more easily physiologically overwhelmed than women. What looks like a neutral position is actually the ultimate powerful act of aggression.
When all four of these behaviors are operating in a marriage, the outlook is not good. These couples are in a Negative Cycle, moving from Complaining to Criticizing to expressing Contempt. The they begin Defending themselves and wind up Stonewalling. This is when they need to see someone who specializes in marriage counseling, and helps them to restore the good marriage.
The best way to handle it is to STOP her when she starts it and tell her you will walk away if she starts that
Well, if there are future interactions where that starts up again, then I will take your advice.
That being said, it has taken its toll over the years, and sometimes I seriously feel like she has lived a parallel R in her head that didn't involve finding out how I felt or what I was thinking.
Before I learned the term "validation", I used to think I felt like she just didn't see me at all.
M-47,W-40,No kids D-filed 5/27/2010 Piecing - 10/21/2010 -=Soon to be banned=-
It's an indicator of immaturity is all... Resolving conflicts between you and someone else is stressful. She gets uncomfortable and panics. She then resorts to defensiveness to avoid the uncomfortable situation... particularly by mind reading. This allows her to
a. Avoid hearing what you have to say b. Control the conversation c. End the conversation faster
It's an attempt to avoid the problem rather than muscling through it to solve it... I have done the same thing myself...
YOu can either walk away when she dos that OR
Cut her off and tell her NO, you wont' accept that its not constructive...
tell her she can talk if she can focus on FACTS... Once she veers from teh facts then cut her off right away.
OR you can make the problem more prominent by asking HER in ADVANCE "what am I thinking now?"
"What am I thinking NOW?"
"What do I want to say NOW?"
It might get the point across too... though its more childish than cutting her off and getting her to focus on teh facts I think... It MAY be the only way to get her to understand what she's doing...
Mind-reading is a passive aggresive behaviour. She doesn't want to have an argument with you, so she scripts the whole thing in her head beforehand and tells you what you will say so she can avoid the conflict tall together...
It's hostile.
The best way to handle it is to STOP her when she starts it and tell her you will walk away if she starts that
MR TIME HEALS : HOLD IT Right THERE! Do NOT tell me what I think or how I feel.
MRS TIME HEALS : But that's how you feel!
MR TIME HEALS : You can offer any constructive thoughts you have to this conversation but I will not sit here and allow you to sabotage this by controlling MY INPUT anymore.
MRS TIME HEALS : Whatever, you always think I am the bad guy...
MR TIME HEALS : I have thoughts and feelings and YOU don't tell me what they are.. I DO THAT.
You keep cutting her off until she stops it...
Or you give her ONE warning that you will EXIT the conversation without ONE MORE WORD if she tries it agian... and FOLLOW THROUGH
