Please Advise!!!! I Could Use Some HELP

[Allen A]

Keep in touch with him. He may very well change his mind. He needs to know you haven't given up on him, but he also needs space. If you can find a safety zone between those two points that's where you would do best to be.

[shasha]

Hello All:

It's been a few weeks and I wanted to stop by and give an update. Allen I hope you are near because you seem to be well respected on this site As always I appreciate your input and anyone else that is experienced in this area.

Although my husband did not change his mind about me visiting him in Sacramento, he did come home this weekend and despite ill feelings he agreed to meet me for coffee yesterday evening.

As everyone is aware I have made so many mistakes and have done everything DB says NOT to do but I'm learning and getting wiser. We had a two hour talk over coffee and I wanted to really "LISTEN" instead of being selfish and only realizing my own needs and pain. He talked a lot about the stress on his job and some of the difficulties he's had with his truck. I listened and for once I realized that I had NEVER in the past really listened to how his day went or took the time to understand how he feels. In some ways I guess I was always self-absorbed and self-centered during the marriage. I realize how this could be painful over time for him.

I was careful NOT to bring up "R" but focus on how we were both feeling without yelling and cursing at each other. For the first time I REALLY listened to him instead of wanting to ONLY get my point accross. This is what I heard him say:

-I felt like I couldn't do anything right to please you or make your happy. All you did was nag and complain and that turned me off.
-I believed you moved out to be with OM.
-You wanted me to plan events/dates for us, but I'm not a planner.
-I still hurt from seeing the pix of you and the OM.
-I believe that you were in a relationship with OM. It was more than a "friendship or one-night stand."
-I will never visit you at your apartment because OM was over there.
-I feel like we never got over or dealt with the reasons why we separated the first time(this is our second separation but first affair in the marriage).

I am happy to say that we were both able to voice our opinion as to why we are still separated. I actually listened and gave a response calmly. What I didn't do is make an excuse for the affair as I have in the past.

We left Starbuck's and ate at Denny's which is where we went on our first date which I thought was cute. After that we got a hotel room because it was very late and he refused to come to my apartment because of the OM. I was disappointed that we weren't intimate. That makes me feel like he no longer has a need to be connected to me or that something else is going on....??? HMMMMMMM!!!!!

Anyhow, we deparated on good terms this morning and I feel like we got some things in the open. I asked him, if I were to move to a different aparment would he come and visit me and he said YES. So I'm not sure where we stand in terms of the pending divorce. I guess only time will tell. One day he tells me the divorce is STILL on and the next day he's willing to meet me for coffee and hang out but not even try to sleep with me. I certainly did not pressure him and respected the fact that he was tired and so we watched TV for a little bit and talked, then fell asleep as it was quite late.

Nevertheless I'm still hopeful and know that if it's meant to be then it's meant to be.

I'm interested in hearing thougts from some of the veteran's on this site


Signed,

Mixed Feelings!

[Allen A]

We had a two hour talk over coffee and I wanted to really "LISTEN" instead of being selfish and only realizing my own needs and pain. He talked a lot about the stress on his job and some of the difficulties he's had with his truck.

I listened and for once I realized that I had NEVER in the past really listened to how his day went or took the time to understand how he feels. In some ways I guess I was always self-absorbed and self-centered during the marriage. I realize how this could be painful over time for him.

Everyone in a r makes some selfish mistakes.. learning to love someone long term means learning to give without expecting anything in return.. flings and affairs are selfish.. you take and you take.. every ounce you give you expect it back inch for inch...

You need to understand that an affair is an ENTIRELY different animal from a conventional relationship... don't even CALL your affair a relationship, call a spade a spade, it was an affair... you are a married woman and you secretly slept with a man who was NOT your husband.. that's not a relationship, its an AFFAIR

An affair is to a Romantic Relationship what Stalking is to Dating

Let me repeat that, an affair is the same sleazy level that stalking is...

When you have a date, its romantic

When you have an affair its CREEPY

Affairs are founded on lies, secret hurts, and emotional vulnerability... its NOT beautiful or romantic.. its a completely different activity...

People having affairs have a very similar delusion that STALKERS have

Stalkers sneak around in secret terrorizing a person or person's that do NOT want them around...

Stalkers are deluded and think they are in LOVE

Stalkers lie and hide in the dark.. much like people having affairs..

Its a SICKNESS.. its not romantic..

I wish i had more time to make a better worded comparison, maybe puppy has something to offer here.. I really would like to write up a full page comparing the two that people can refer to.. just don't have the content at the moment..i think there's enough here for you to get it

I was careful NOT to bring up "R" but focus on how we were both feeling without yelling and cursing at each other. For the first time I REALLY listened to him instead of wanting to ONLY get my point accross. This is what I heard him say:

-I felt like I couldn't do anything right to please you or make your happy. All you did was nag and complain and that turned me off.
-I believed you moved out to be with OM.
-You wanted me to plan events/dates for us, but I'm not a planner.
-I still hurt from seeing the pix of you and the OM.
-I believe that you were in a relationship with OM. It was more than a "friendship or one-night stand."
-I will never visit you at your apartment because OM was over there.
-I feel like we never got over or dealt with the reasons why we separated the first time(this is our second separation but first affair in the marriage).

OK, so what are you going to DO regarding these? List the actions you plan on taking...

I am happy to say that we were both able to voice our opinion as to why we are still separated. I actually listened and gave a response calmly. What I didn't do is make an excuse for the affair as I have in the past.

Yikes.. NEVER NEVER NEVER EVER attempt to empirically JUSTIFY an AFFAIR.. its a sleazy cruel, and incredibly self-destructive thing to engage in.. there is NO excuse for that behaviour..its NOT constructive.. it just makes your marriage a LOT WORSE.. affairs NEVER IMPROVE a situation.. they are cruel and destructive escapes...

Think of an affair as robbing a liquor store.. sure you get away with it... but now you are on the run.. you will get caught eventually.. and basically, you can't go back to a normal life... you are on the run until yoru crime spree is put to an end .. and then you have to pay the price for the history of damage you have brought intot his world...

There is always a solution to finance better than stealing, and there is always a soltion marital problems better than cheating.. it solves NOTHING

NO BLAME... take BLAME OFF the table... you made choices that hurt him, he made choices that hurt you.. the two of you can find a way PAST that, or you can divorce, finger poitning is NOT constructive

Shirley Glass has characterized victims of affairs as having the same trauma that victims of violent crimes have :

1. They feel used
2. They feel worthless
3. They feel VIOLATED
4. They feel UNSAFE.. a haunting feeling that it will never be over...

THIS Is what your H is dealing with right now... THESE feelings are what haunts him every night.. and you spent how long ARGUING a CASE for why your affair was justified? Oi Vey!!

Nothing justifies those feelings brought on someone... nothing.

We left Starbuck's and ate at Denny's which is where we went on our first date which I thought was cute. After that we got a hotel room because it was very late and he refused to come to my apartment because of the OM. I was disappointed that we weren't intimate. That makes me feel like he no longer has a need to be connected to me or that something else is going on....??? HMMMMMMM!!!!!

Uh oh...

1. STOP expecting sex... good LORD the man just had his marriage RAPED and you think he can produce an erection to make you feel better?
2. Focus on HIM and how HE feels, this means STOP worrying about how YOU feel... I still get a very strong sense that you want this relationsihp for YOU.. not for HIM.. you need to be in a place wehre you want HIM to have his marriage back and where you are working to find a SAFE and COMFORTABLE path that he can walk to get there...
3. You are NOT dating right now, its NOT cute.. you are healing WOUNDS.. NOT DATING... Trips to the hospital aren't dates, and neither is meeting your H to negotiate a reconcilliation... A HUGE problem I am sensing here is you seem terribly warm and fun to be around.. right NOW he needs SERIOUS MATURITY emanating from you... not a bouncy puppy dog ... puppies are fun when you are feeling good, but when your home has been RAPED by some sleazy creep who was mounting your wife behind your back you do NOT want to be around a puppy... You want REASSURANCE that you are SAFE and will NOT be hurt like that EVER AGAIN. Reassurance takes TIME.. you offer whatever you can, but he will only pick up what he feels like at the time
4. NEVER HIT ON HIM.. even if he repsonds.. he may HATE you later because he may end up with NIGHTMARES... when you bring his mind around sex.. it IMMEDIATELY throws images of the OM mounting you and he becomes WRACKED with feelings of VIOLATION... do NOT PUSH him right now... i would suspect he likley isnt' even CAPABLE of producing an erection. Tell him YOU want to e serious and focus on the two of you TRUSTING ech other again... SEX is NOT going to HELP that along.. its going to awaken flashbacks of your affair in his mind... do NOT go there.

Lastly... do NOT even CONSIDER him possibly cheating on YOU right now.. just STOP THAT.. yikes... its childish and hurtful to suggest to a man who has been cuckholded that HE is a liear and a cheat... it makes me sick to even think about it.

And ya, look up the word cuckhold.. its a real word... it will show you how horrible the human male feels when his wife has been secretly mounted by some sleazy creep for god knows how long... yikes, makes me shudder...

Anyhow, we deparated on good terms this morning and I feel like we got some things in the open. I asked him, if I were to move to a different aparment would he come and visit me and he said YES. So I'm not sure where we stand in terms of the pending divorce. I guess only time will tell. One day he tells me the divorce is STILL on and the next day he's willing to meet me for coffee and hang out but not even try to sleep with me. I certainly did not pressure him and respected the fact that he was tired and so we watched TV for a little bit and talked, then fell asleep as it was quite late.

You need to REMVOE ANYTHING FROM YOUR LIFE that may remind him of the OM.. I TOLD you this earlier.. change your phone, change yoru email, yes, change your WHOLE DAMN APARTMENT...

YOU need to get to a place where you can EMPATHIZE with him on this so much that thoughts of the OM disgust YOU.... and you are NOT there... or you wouldn't be able to sleep in your current apartment... and I am guessing you aren't even batting an eye about it... you likley even have photos of him on your PC still...

Sorry to be so blunt here but I see a HUGE mountain for you to climb, and I am worrying if you understood even half of what it will take to get this man back you will so intimidated you will run away... we DON'T want that.. I just sense a lot of confusion about you and where he is at right now.. you really don't seem to be aware of how horrible an affair makes someone feel...

Has anyone ever knowingly cheated on you? I say knowingly bcause its always possible you have been cheated on but never caught him...

[shasha]

Hi Allen A, sorry for the delay in response. Work hours are out of control and coming down with a sore throat...Ugg!

To answer your question, I have been cheated on before and I felt horrible but eventually got over it enough to move on with my relationship. After carefully reading your response I can agree with you in that I hadn't really realized how much damage the affair TRULY caused because he never voiced it to me as he did during our conversation at Starbucks.

He referred back to the photo's that he saw of me and the OM and stated that it HURT him then and it STILL hurts him now. That registered with me. It sent shock waves thru my body. He went on to say that this was obviously NOT a one-night stand and kept referring back to one of the photo's and described it as being more than just a fling. That's when I knew that this is something that still haunts him and has haunted him since he found out about the A.

I am prepared to move and shared that with him. My lease will be up in mid May which is a good thing because it's not that far away.

I've had a chance to reflect on our time spent together and I feel like a deer caught in headlights but I do understand that I must keep fighting for my marriage. But you are RIGHT Allen A, I have a HUGE mountain to climb and feel like I need to re-read the books again.

I called him this evening just to check on him and see how his work week went. Conversation went good, I didn't drag it out...Made sure to listen to him and ask specific questions. Told him a little bit about my hectic week. Short and sweet. He told me that I sounded sick and should go to the doctor even thought I didn't want to. This is the second time I've been sick in two months and both times he's encouraged me to go. I'm on his medical insurance thank GOD because medical care can be really expensive without insurance. At least it appears that he still cares about my health.

As always thanks for your help and lending ear Allen A and everyone else!

G-nite

[shasha]

Hopefully Allen A or some of the veterans are around because I'm starting to loose hope in "R" with husband.

Spoke with him on last Sunday just to check in and see how he was doing. Hadn't spoken with him since our time together on Valentine's evening.

During our conversation we did a lot of chit chatting and laughing, etc. Although I know this is AGAINST DB rules I just wanted to test the waters and see where his head was about our pending D. So I asked him if he had heard anything about our divorce because I never received anything about our courtdate. He said that he had in fact received a call from his paralegal about a week ago and she told him that our court date should be coming up this month. So I asked him if we would have to show up to court and he said he thinks so but wasn't sure. I held it together but was devastated.

So we continued on talking about other things and I asked him if he thought I should just move away from California and move closer to my family and he said that he thought that question would be better suited for my significant other. This answer completely through me for a loop. I told him that I didn't have a significant other and that he was my husband and that we'd been together for 7 years. If we divorced, why should I remain in a city where I have no family, etc. He said he didn't have the answer.

I'm just confused at this point. I've made or at least I feel I've made great efforts to completely END my A. I'm no longer in contact with the OM. I also told my husband that I will move when my lease is up because he refuses to come see me at my apartment because OM had been there. Apparently, all this has meant nothing if he still wants to go through the D. If I continue reaching out to him I think at this point I'm just making a bigger FOOL of myself.

If he wants the D, he want the D but why ask me if I've taken certain actions to end all communication with OM? Why tell me he would visit me if I lived in another apartment?

My friend told me she felt like he has NOT and will NOT make an effort to be with me and that since we were NOT intimate when we spent the night together on Valentines Day that I should read all the signs that are telling me he's moved on and that it's over.

Any thoughts anyone??? I could really use some sound advice from DB members.

[Allen A]

Hi Sasha.

I have a few comments and warnings :

1. When you call him up to chat and be nice, you are insulting him - he's hurt. You lied to him and went behind his back and slept with another man while you had a marital commitment to him. When you act casual and light around him, it will be taken as a subtle offence. I am sorry can never be said enough. Sweeping your affair under the rug to keep a warm conversation is NOT going to endear you to him.

2. Yes, "testing the waters" and asking him what the status of the divorce process is does DAMAGE to your efforts, it does NOT help... I realize you want to know, but your wanting to know is NOT helping you.

3. His comment about your "significant other" is clearly indicative about how much you have hurt him and his distrust of you right now. Being NICE and happy around him is just an insult to his feelings.

4. Your efforts to end your affair may not be known to him, and they also need TIME to register. You are expecting him to trust you simply because you aren't cheating anymore. He doesn't trust you any more right now than he would a stranger on the street.

5. Fighting for your marriage does not make you a fool, it makes you an adult.

6. When he asks you what actions you have taken he is "testing the waters" to determine how much he can trust you.

7. Your friend is NOT a professional marital therapist, she's a FOOL. There is NO WAY a man is going to have sex with his unfaithful wife while he doesn't trust her. Men will NOT have sex with someone they don't TRUST. Yes, we DO have our limits.

8. He does NOT want the divorce, he wants the pain of betrayal to end... He is deluded into thinking once he divorces you he will feel better. He is divorcing you because he HURTS and wants to HURT YOU BACK.

9. You need to stop looking at what he is saying and doing and commit to full disclosure of what you have done, what you are doing to correct it, and to be APOLOGETIC and SERIOUS when dealing with him... do NOT make light conversation with him.

I would also make it clear to him that you do NOT want to maintain a friendship with someone who will divorce you rather than fight for his marriage. HE made a commitment too. I would take a stand on that. He has the idea in his head that HIS pain and HIS hurt is the ONLY thing that is important here... and its NOT... YOU are hurting too.

He's being terribly selfish and he needs to be TOLD that. But it has to be done delicately. Do you have any friends or family who can speak with him on your behalf who will be a marriage advocate for you? He isn't gonig to listen to you, he does NOT trust you right now.

I need you to put a list of all the things here that you have done to END the affair and ANY CHANCE of contact.

Don't write a paragraph, please write it as a list, one item per line. I bet I can think of two more items that can be done to every one you have listed.

Most WS's who have affairs think they have done everything to erase the memory of the infidelity, but most of the time they haven't.

[Allen A]

I am going to add a few more points here :

When you DO contact him, or when he contacts you

1. Bring up your affair immediately. Apologize for it happening, tell him how horrible and angry YOU are about it and that you DESPISE this creep and can't bear the thought of him at all. Ask him how WE can help get past him. Ask him if HE is willing to attend a Family Therapy session with you to help BOTH of you resolve this and HEAL.

2. Do NOT make light conversation and laugh. This is NOT helping you. This man is HURT and divorcing you. This is NOT a time to be acting casual. When YOU act CASUAL to a man divorcing you he thinks YOU are casual about DIVORCE.

3. YOU need to speak up about the importance of marriage. You need to press him to remember his commitment. He WILL throw the affair in your face. I would simply tell him divorcing your wife when she does NOT want a divorce is just as HORRIBLE as infidelity. Also remind him that YOU TOO have been cheated on, and that you understand how infidelity AND divorce feel and you do NOT want a divorce. Be DEAD SERIOUS about this.

4. Tell him you will do WHATEVER it TAKES for him to consider family therapy and reconcilliation. Tell him you love him and you want to keep your marriage and your commitment. He will likely just tell you its too late. He's TESTING the WATERS. If YOU give up when he says that, you are NOT committed.

5. His distance and hurting you right now is HIM testing YOUR commitment level... if you RUN or CRY or GIVE UP.. he KNOWS he's doing the right thing divorcing you. If YOU TRULY LOVE HIM, you will bear the pain he's putting you through and keep trying.. that is what he's thinking in his head.

6. This is YOUR test of YOUR commitment right now... loving someone who is hurting you in return... how long can you keep that up is the test... HE wants to know how committed you are... but he's NOT going to ask you, he's going to TEST you, which is exactly what he's doing.

7. If you have a wedding ring, you damn well better be wearing it. And make a point of it too.

8. You need to get him some authority figures to get healthy marriage advocate advice from

Here's a good video on the subject :

http://24.141.121.163/geurintro.wmv

Get some of his friends, his family, or someone you think is willing to speak with him to watch THIS first...

YOU make SURE That YOU watch it too

[P17]

Can I just reiterate this one point you listed:

My friend told me she felt like he has NOT and will NOT make an effort to be with me and that since we were NOT intimate when we spent the night together on Valentines Day that I should read all the signs that are telling me he's moved on and that it's over.

And Allen A's reply:

7. Your friend is NOT a professional marital therapist, she's a FOOL. There is NO WAY a man is going to have sex with his unfaithful wife while he doesn't trust her. Men will NOT have sex with someone they don't TRUST. Yes, we DO have our limits.

You've actually mentioned this a few times and I've bitten my tongue and not replied. You need to get this through your head - he is NOT going to want to have sex with a spouse who decided he wasn't good enough and left him to go and hump some guy with, and I quote what you said from an earlier message, a 'hot body'. It's just not going to happen. Your obsession with being intimate with him screams to me that you really have no idea what you have done to him at all. Not a single ounce of understanding.

Drop the sex. It's not going to happen for a long LONG time. It's not an indication of anything OTHER THAN his distrust or you. Not all men are sex maniacs.

I don't apologise for this message. I have been wanting to say it for a very long time. As I said I bit my tongue.

Follow Allen A's advice COMPLETELY. Not half of it, or bits your like. ALL OF IT. You may then be on the right road.

YOU are screwing this up big time. You have a chance to fix this. I actually thing quite a good chance. Stop listening to people who THINK they what they are talking about and listen to those who DO (ie. your friend).

If my W came back and did the things you are doing, I'd be acting the same as your H. Difference is I would have told her to hit the road by now.

Sheesh!

[newmama]

If I continue reaching out to him I think at this point I'm just making a bigger FOOL of myself.

Shasha, I see you request to only hear from DB vets but as a betrayed spouse, I will say honestly and gently:

you can not make a fool of yourself showing your H everything you are willing to do to prove your remorse.

ACTIONS. Who cares about the lease in your apartment? Sacrifice the money and move to another apartment. It seems to me that your H made it clear that he would want you to do that...that it would mean a lot to him.

I really want you to think about the actions you could take today (since your court date is soon) that would make the biggest impression.

Good job listening to what he has said to you about his perspective of the problems in the marriage. Now think of what you can do to work on improving those areas and showing him.

Now the apartment is a big thing- and have you been to IC? sorry I just started reading page 6.

Have you been able to repeat back to him the ways that you hear him tell you how you have hurt him? (oops- poor wording)

Ask him to let you know whatever he needs you to do to forgive you because you are 100% dedicated to earning his trust again, and want to have a new and improved marriage.

I don't know what the vets would think about what I stated but I hope it's not too far off base.

[P17]

YOU are screwing this up big time. You have a chance to fix this. I actually thing quite a good chance. Stop listening to people who THINK they what they are talking about and listen to those who DO (ie. your friend).

That came out wrong - what I meant was stop listening to your friend and start listening to those who know what they are talking about.