PM Thread #4

[PositivelyMommy]

thanks for the advice pollyanna. I know it's easy to get hopes up. I will try to concentrate on my life.

[pollyanna]

I take my previous post back. H is fuming at me for no reason. That anger just seems to bubble away under the surface.

The shift I feel may be just distance ha ha. silly me or should I say stupid him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[PositivelyMommy]

Polllyanna, Sorry about your H. You know, MLC makes people's moods swing up and down. There are good times, there are very low times as well, sorry you have to take the brunt of it. I think it may be because he thinks you would take it. Does it do it to other people as well, or just to you? That should be a good clue if he can control himself in front of others.

My H is going away for the next two weekends so he wants to come by tomorrow night to visit with the kids a little bit. I told him it was fine. But I don't really want to see him. May make myself distant.

I am feeling good otherwise. Really learning how to control my anger.

I have had to get a dress altered because it didn't fit well. Well, first they didn't tell me how much they would charge me and said they would call me back. Never did. They said it was done and then told me the price, which was pretty high. I was firm that I was not happy about this arrangment since they said they would call and I could make a decision based on the price. But I said I would pay for it this time but pls call me next time. Well, took it home and found they only did half the job. Took it back, told them so, firmly. Picked it up again today and found it still not done!!! Starting fuming, got quite serious, could feel very angry and that my emotions were getting out of control. Started to exaggerate and think about all the bad stuff in my life.

Red flag!

Told myself, reframe, reframe, reframe my train of thought!

So I took my DB coach's advice:

1) Acknowledge my first feeling - which was I felt really annoyed that they did not get it right and it has taken three trips and it's still not done

2) Very disappointed that I can't trust them to do a good job, have been using them for years

3) Not let my feelings develop into anger.

I said the words out loud, "I am annoyed at them but I won't let this turn into anger" 3 times. Then I said out loud to myself, I will NOT let this turn me into a crazy, angry woman. Then I had a visual of myself being angry and out of control and that imaged shocked me back into my calm self.

I don't want to be that woman - ever again.

Lo and behold, I felt a great calm. I have learned how to handle my feelings. I feel very proud of myself. I am in control of my emotions, not the other way around. I feel so grown-up. You can teach an old dog new tricks!

Thank you DB Coach Joann.

[TxMomw/2girls]

PM -

I'm sorry I've left you behind for awhile... I've been off the DB boards some... I seem to email a few of the guys from the board individually than get on here..

OK I read up on your thread... I did want to make a comment to what you wrote about a few weeks back. Several other posters said the same thing to you as well. You know we only all have your best interest in mind. I think it is ok to leave the door cracked when and if your H comes back... BUT like many said live your life as if he isn't coming back... so if it would take 6 months or more to get yourself ready to move back to your family then if you talk to your H and start wheels in motion he might see you are serious and it might force the issue for him to make some decisions (if he is going too)

I'm sure whatever plans you put in place can be stopped or put on hold in regards to getting ready for the move if H comes back but it sounds like that is what would ultimately make you and probably your kids happy if this indeed does end up down the dreaded D path.

Just from my own experience, my H is in a contant push and pull match (not knowningly) and when I seem less "friendly" and more distant but pleasant he comes around crying and telling me how sorry he is or how painful this is for him. I think it shows a since of respect to your H if he sees you are going to move on with or without him... To date he hasn't had to make any decisions one way or the other b/c he probably knows you will be there for him.

I want to give you kudo's to all the weight you have lost, the fact that you have a part time job, and you have done so much work that you will be a better person and a better Mom in the end. You have made great 180's and I know I have seen them.

Also, I loved that you stood up to your H when it came to the kids and that he couldn't just decide to change his plans and not see the kids or come later in the day.. proud of you.. Men like a strong women and most men need a strong women so that really showed him that you do have respect and demand it of him .... you stated your boundries.... great job.

I only want what is best for you and maybe setting a time frame for you is a good idea and when that time comes you know you will be making plans to move in another direction.... Such a hard decision .. love to you - hope you know this only comes from a warm place in my heart..

I will try to update my thread in next day or two..

Hugs>>>>

[hope3343]

Hi PM, just checking in. Been on vacation in CA this past week. It has been like therapy. Looks like you are doing well.
Will check in with everyone when I return. Having a great time and this has been the best for D15. Saw traces of the D we had this past summer before all of this happened.
take care

[karen43]

Well, I agree about not letting anger get the best of you; I think it hurts us more than it hurts anyone else. But on the other hand, I think it would be good for you to never go back there again, and tell the manager or owner or whatever why, not in an angry way, but just the facts. That was horrible, and I think most of us would get mad at that!!! Karen

[karen43]

BUT like many said live your life as if he isn't coming back... so if it would take 6 months or more to get yourself ready to move back to your family then if you talk to your H and start wheels in motion he might see you are serious and it might force the issue for him to make some decisions (if he is going too)

That does sound good! And it prob. would take 6 months or so, so you could start baby steps in that direction, if you think that's what you want. Karen

[25yearsmlc]

PM,

You asked me to check in on your sitch. So I have read this thread, but only this one. Therefore I don't know what your own individual issues from the past were; except I'm inferring that you had some anger/resentment issues. And you had gained weight and whatever else goes with that, (Complacency? etc.) or low self esteem blah blah blah, I assume, but you have lost weight and done some other 180s...correct so far?

And your h has been having the A for what now? I mean, 2 years? So you've been at this awhile. The typical questions the LBSer faces include some of the following...

You have been in limbo and purgatory - hell, etc. and wondered if your h was in MLC with an alien temporarily in charge of him, or is this the culmination of an evolving process wherein a selfish man's true self has finally emerged...

We all wonder this. We all wonder about A's. If there is an OP, we wonder if it's an "addiction," as opposed to the possibility that the OP is "the real thing" and we were merely "practice spouses"-- and down the road, the x's will be the improved versions of themselves that we were always hoping for. So we got the crappy stuff and the OP gets the gold...those fears are common. And not all ill founded. But completely out of our control.

These thoughts consume an enormous amount of our emotional/spiritual energy. They're not productive except as it relates to your response. Would you act differently if you were sure your h was in a MLC, versus just showing that he has become a total narcissist? What would be different in your life?

You'd still need to GAL, have a PMA for you. You admit that anger has been an issue for you, and you are right to "lose the anger" especially in front of your h. You have to counter his negative images of you, which he uses as his justification/rationalizations for leaving and having the A, with positive images. Somehow you want to show that his "data" about you and the revisions of the M he is doing, are invalid.

But you can't do this at the expense of your self respect and life. Plus, in your sitch, 2 years of DBing with a PMA and no pressure and no confronting and giving all the affirmations you've given -- has accomplished what? Less anger from him? Usually? Okay. Fine...but Is that enough? Of course not. 2 years without a significant move towards a reconciliation means that your present approach is not getting you anywhere near where you want and just b/c it keeps the peace does not mean it's working as far as restoring the M.

None of us know IF your h will come back, let alone what would help trigger that. We can offer you advice on what is likely to PUSH HIM AWAY...but that's pretty much all. YOU have to monitor the results of your efforts and it sounds as if you have been.

I can tell you what my DB coach said that seemed to help in my sitch. And the reason I have not posted under "Div BUSTED" yet is b/c of caution, and fears of jinxing things, and maybe just the idea that I never want to think it's all done and fixed. You know, as if I can take anything for granted, b/c I won't do that again.
BTW, more M's are saved here than some realize b/c I know for a fact that 2 other M's are working out but the LBSers are like me- and don't feel like making an official declaration...make sense?

I also have two relatives who divorced and remarried their x's some years later. IT DOES HAPPEN and I'm a "witness". My cousin took 8 years to reconcile, and they have now been remarried 12 years, and are happier than they were the first time around. My aunt and uncle divorced and remarried 5 years later. Some years later when he got terminal cancer, my aunt and cousins were at his bedside when he passed on. It was bittersweet. She also said the 2nd M was better than the first.
They lost each other in order to find each other. I don't know about OPs but there
was one or more somewhere in there.

The M you had with your h IS over for all intents and purposes. When you're honest you know you only want to be M to the man you think/hope he can be or is down deep still there...

For my sitch, I think a recommitment ceremony will be a good thing b/c it affirms that we will not slide back into old destructive habits that got us here, and the symbolism is powerful and if it's all real, it could be great for the kids to see the legacy we are giving them about M, it is one of unconditional love, forgiveness, renewal, etc. Though I played a big role in our M's issues, and would do things differently if I could - Which I DID communicate to h pretty early on, still...

He is the one who left, ((and For a JOB!!...SIDENOTE: that choice still blows my mind, but I "get" that I will probably never "get" how he made those choices and I accept that. I do not have to understand all the things he has done; and it's a waste of time trying to. All that matters is that we agree on our future together and how we'll get there...)) and now he is facing fall out with the older kids who see him as selfish, or the youngest, who sees him as an intruder/stranger coming in and wrecking the routine we build while he is away, like your sitch on weekends. He is trying to get back into our family fully and I'll help him as I can. But it is his responsibility; not mine. However he was once a very interactive dad, so it does come naturally to him. I have high hopes there.

I have learned to turn their R's over to God, and not get in their way, helping/supporting when I can, but not taking charge of it and continually gently reminding h that he is the parent...and the one who left and he is not the "victim"...and I tell d19 that her father loves her and would kill or die for her in a heartbeat and I mean that. I think they'll rebuild something good, maybe with monthly dinners, one on one where they just talk. He wants to take an acting class as I have done for years (MFA coming soon) b/c the older children are in the film industry and he wants to be included in our discussions and know what we're talking about. That was his idea. So good things happen.

Now...Going back in time to what I did that did work and did not and may have...

At one point I felt ready to end the M. That was a turning point for ME and lead, I believe, to a turning point in him. At the time I gave us a 10% chance of reconciling b/c he was crossing so many boundaries of mine, and acting so UNdesireable to me. I did not want that man and would not want that man again, if h had stayed that way. I could not seem to reach him with my words no matter how articulate or brilliant. He still has his moments and they are still hurtful. But back to those times...okay so I decided that I wanted out and it was all a matter of the kids. First had to let d19 then finish hs. So I knew that part of the deal justified my staying around right then and it was a "deadline" in my head. I knew once d19 finished HS I would make some choices. In the meantime, our anniversary was coming up and I did not want to spend another one alone. I wanted to go to Italy for our 25th, with or without h. He actually did try to come at the last minute...which would mean delaying our departure or returning early or whatever--story of our m was HIS schedule & working around it. No thanks. I delayed our departure for 2 days while he visited and had a nice event with h and the kids and when he was returning to Alaska, where HE and he alone wanted to live to be with his heroes and make a gazillion dollars...blah blah blah to finally feel good about himself?? assure himself that he'd never have to fear poverty again with his 9475638th credential??...but not quite yet...must make more money OR get more prestige...or work extra hours...yada yada ya da ya DA!!!

BUT I took the kids to Italy and had the best trip of our lives. Without h. No reminders of him. For whole hours and then days I did not think of him much. How welcome! No stress. PROOF that we could be happy without h and still be a "family". And some Italian men flirted with me and you know, I really appreciated it. (No vulgarity or jerks, all guys like we see on television, classy, handsome charming...probably all married -- but my ego NEEDED their attention, my kids were happy for me - and I felt GREAT!!!)

The trip was a turning point. H was noticeably bothered. Here we were, His family- and having a blast without him and it was hard to reach us with the phones and time differences....too bad...same thing i had gone through with him gone. H was....working....living alone (as far as I know!!) in a far away cold place. So when he visited, we had the same issues others do, can we ML and not feel used later on? Should we? Should I say "hell no!"? Very personal choices. I chose to contrast the cold of his world up there, with the warmth and love and laughter of our home as much as I could.

I had to extricate myself from those who gave advice based ONLY on their experiences...which they tend to project onto yours. They'll see cheaters everywhere if that happened to them, or they'll choose to believe the unbelievable b/c they can't handle the truth in their sitch. Some LBSers will force DETAILS out of the WAS of the A, that I know I would not need to know...

I applied for jobs in italy, and elsewhere, that showed h he was no longer my main concern in my decisions. This was incredibly freeing to me. He had chosen to leave and I accepted that with sad resignation...but balanced with my GENUINE desire to see the upside of not being M to him. You already know some of the upsides to not having him around in your face all the time; you really do. Not just leaving the toilet seat up either. You also know the upside of living near your family again.

Your fear is that if you leave, you'll be making it too hard for your h to come back, IF he wanted to. Well, balance it out. On one hand, "Keep the road home, paved and smooth."" That does NOT require you staying there to your detriment, and it seems to me it is costing your kids to stay there, costing them a lot in lost time with SOME male figure's attention that your family would provide, along with other affirmation-giving adult relatives....that would go a long way to compensate for your h not being around more. Besides, he isn't around much now and plus, he may have to make more formal arrangements to see them. A lot of men end up seeing their kids MORE when they are divorced...ironically. They have to make plans and acitivities...

My guess in your sitch, -- I suspect that IF there is a chance of your h returning, it would be by seeing you planning to leave. Nothing punitive on your end. Just you becoming the woman only a fool would leave."

So DB advice, same for MLC or selfish man who might change...(but MLC can be an excuse/label we WANT to believe in b/c the alternative sucks more) which is

Applaud loudly for the 1% of what they do/say that is positive . (This was "Mother Teresa" stuff for me, b/c I didn't want to praise h for "being with his kids" b/c he IS their father for God's sake...BUT if his ego/heart/brain was so bruised that the only way to encourage a sense of hope in him, and if it helped convince h that he had not wrecked so much that it was pointless to try..so be it. I'd clap clap clap...-NO this is not something that continues after a certain point. But expressing gratitude for more than I did before IS appropriate and I'm a better woman for that.

LOSE THE ANGER--at least in front of h, and preferably for good. For YOU. Otherwise it will consume you. (See my signature below about forgiving....we are talking about YOUR hell, and the only way out of it is to forgive and let go and this is not the type of thing you need to tell h if you don't want to b/c it is not about him. It's ALL about you and doing what's best for you and your kids. They want/need a happy functioning mother so thtey feel safe that ONE parent will put their happiness first. Hand the pain/anger/ & marital problems over to God and let Him take them off your hands...and don't go taking the problems back from Him... That really helped me. Marianne Williamson has some books with exercises on forgiveness and healing that helped me, although for some people she is too new agey. I'm Christian and found no problem with her approach, but hey, I live in California...
I'd cry in the showers sometimes, so the kids could not hear, and do my "turning it over" exercises before I expected h to call. IT helped me stay calm when talking to h and I'd count those "Scene free" talks as baby steps. That helps to

COUNTER THE NEGATIVE IMAGES WITH POSITIVES.... and finally I was asked by DB coach to try and "Listen like a lover" when H would discuss problems with work, or people he knew, or other things UNrelated to R...I also did not bring up R talk at all. Ever, for months. But he saw me moving on....and it was real.


As for him giving up b/c you make it "so hard" by moving...3 thoughts and then I'm done here. Okay first #1) I cannot imagine you taking him back after all this time wihtout some sort of commitment revealed on HIS end. So if he can't manage to make an effort with you and your children b/c you are a few hours away, then you have your answer there. I mean, don't bother taking him back if he can't even try to overcome an "obstacle" like driving far to see you and his children, versus the obstacles he created each Step of the way. Making it too easy to reconcile would doom it, would be so unwise and I say that NOT to punish but to ensure that you are wisely choosing to reconcile, if you were to go down that road.

Second, leaving is a good idea b/c it helps you. That's a fair reason! You deserve t be a reason and when you show your own self respect and drive and INTERESTING life, you are more attractive. Has your h noticed any physical changes in you or said anything about your hair or weight or clothing? Any comments?

Third, he will finally realize he cannot go on like this without risking the loss of your R with him. Sure you guys can talk on the phone but what if another man touches you? LET HIM WONDER....it's not a game. It's your marriage. He will know he is risking something with this behavior b/c it has gone on so long without any consequences....that it has not gotten you where you wanted to go, has it?

Gosh this is long. But hey, you asked, and I aim to please. "Waiting it out/being patient" can often be another way of saying Do nothing and is only easier in the short run. And less frightening. But in the long run it is not getting you anywhere. No matter what, this is simply not all about ow....sorry, but the good news is that to the extent you did play a role in this, YOU can change that. So do that. Now you have your hands full but you have a PLAN...and recall my relatives who divorced and remarried?

They got lives after the divorces and that is probably why they got along so much better the 2nd time around. They had learned and improved.

Hope this helps more than confuses...You are articulate and smart and will get through this better than you realize.

((( j )))

[25yearsmlc]

PS

Something I posted recently that others asked me to post again, in the event of a reconciliation OR forgiveness work, consider the following little piece:

SEEING OUR SPOUSES THROUGH "ANOTHER'S" EYES
by J-

There comes a time in every marriage when each spouse sees the other in total stark reality, without the passion of the new. They see their partner totally naked, with all their flaws, weaknesses, qualities, strengths, quirks, warts and all, and in that time, they make a choice.

They may reject their spouse as simply too flawed, no faults of weight allowed, only minor ones. Those spouses choose to leave.

Others choose to stay, but only to make the other one cave in to their will, to nag, cajole, critisize, and "be proven RIGHT"... until one of them finally dies.

And some choose to stay, but to sigh deeply for their whole lives, rolling their eyes in the long suffering manner of the martyrs they see themselves as.

And then, there are others. There are those who see the realities of their spouse - along with their own many faults - in stark light too.

Somehow they see it all and yet, still, they choose to love. They choose to focus on the good, and to compliment it, and admire it, and to strongly favor it. As for the bad, and "not so good", they learn to compensate, overlook, accept, forgive, or work around that....for they try their hardest to achieve the real goal of a loving marriage; to see their spouses as God sees them. Through His eyes.

The End

[PositivelyMommy]

Thanks 25yrsMLC, Karen, Hope and TxMom.

You all had good points and as it has taken me the last couple of days to process what you all said. In my mind, I keep flipflopping as to whether to stay here or to start the wheels in motion for the move. And since I have not had an R talk with H for months, I really don't know what is on his mind or if I am on his mind at all...

But I just want to make it clear, there is no bluff here. If I move, I move away for good. It is several hours flight away so H won't be driving over to visit us on weekends or anything. I am sensing that H would choose to visit his kids maybe three or four times a year max. That would be very sad for my children. It's a huge decision and one that I don't lightly that's why I didn't pull the trigger last year when I found out about A.

I have been DB'ing since August last year. Has things been better? Well, yes, slightly. But since A is hot and heavy, I don't think we as a couple can get anywhere. I think if we were to have any sort of a chance, the A would have to be over. That is why I am not expecting accountability or fidelity. My expectations as low on purpose. What I am doing is GAL'ing for REAL. This has given me a new sense of self, a new respect for my capabilities and a relief from the pain. I really have become the woman that only a fool would leave. I have look deep into my fears and confronted them and re-evaluated what it means to be married and be committed and adjusted my attitude towards M.

My anger is acknowledged but not acted on. I concentrate on giving him kudos on being a good dad now rather than the opposite which I used to do before. I have always listened to H, hours and hours everynight. And I continue to listen now but he has chosen not to talk to me anymore and not to share his life, his feelings, he has chosen to shut me out.
But is this change enough? No. He is going thru his own issues. He is seeing me change and have not made any comments to me. (Because he is not sharing.) I don't know if he has any regrets, I don't even know if he misses any part of our life together.

What I really want is for my H to come back and work on my M. If I can't have that then my backup plan is to move home closer to my family and be surrounded by family love. For me and my kids. My H would not be able to find a job in my hometown. It's a fact. It might as well be moving to the moon for him. So I am left with the same choice. Do I stay or do I go. No one can predict the future, I just don't want to give up at the wrong time. But the thing is, my MIL, H, my counsellor and a lot of people here almost have me convinced that H would not try in this M. My view of a reconciliation is pessimistic. My only hope is that the man who I fell in love with, the one who has integrity and love for me is still in there somewhere. I don't know how the man I knew could live with himself. I really don't.

25yrsMLC, you see the difference between a man with MLC and one who is always this way is that the one who was always selfish is just coming out of his shell and not afraid to show his selfishness. The man in MLC, I believe, is confused and causing hurt and not REALLY understanding consequences. So the difference is that I have compassion for the MLC'er and not the selfish guy. I believe that MLC guy is sick and can possibly be healed if someone (not me) can help him find the way. The selfish guy cannot be cured, it's chronic.

I have faced the fact that my H has chosen his job over me and kids. What I wonder now is with our C's help, can he really understand his own values and adjust his lifestyle to reflect his values. He is not a heartless, loveless H. I think his values have been compromised and he is looking at all the options (in a very destructive way). If he can find his way back to the family oriented guy I know that he can be, then all of this pain and wait will be worth it. If not, then I have taken this time out to improve on me and I should be happy with that.

I truly believe that if we choose to make a 'go' of it, we can do a whole lot better because we know ourselves and our partners better now. We can accept each other's fault and find the mature love, acceptance and compassion that can come from a long, deep love. I would love to have this with H. But maybe it's time for me to consider other options as well.