goodfellow, Start with The Divorce Remedy. ************************** DB713- Great plan. I love your ingenuity! I also like how you have become a real student of this DB stuff! *************************** Oldmedic, What happens when you invite her out to lunch and keep it light? Does that work well? *************************** kcee- As to the therapist, I think that it would be great if your wife was seeing a solution-oriented therapist even if the only thing they're discussing is her. I am not sure that her therapist will take too kindly to your suggesting a different approach. A good therapist wouldn't push working on the marriage is someone is "not ready" to do so.
Giving her a portion of the Divorce Remedy couldn't hurt. Try it out. Good luck! Michele
quote:Originally posted by Michele: IF she perceives you as controlling, don't do tough love. If she sees you as dependent and needing her, tough love might work.
She percieves me as both, so that just makes things more complicated...
I'm not so sure if I agree with her on the controlling part, but I definitely have been acting needy and dependant on her. Like I said, when she returned home I backslid horrendously. Most of the time I was fine, but when I fell I fell hard. So what I'm trying to do now is get her to think I've moved on and that she's losing me. I just have no idea how to do that when I haven't even spoken to her in close to a month. No matter which way I go there are things I need to do first (like clean the apartment and work on our debt) to make myself more appealing. But it's tough when the only clue I have at all as to how she's feeling is an email she wrote to a couple friends of ours. I copied it into another thread and I'll put it here too.
Hi Friend and other friend,
I feel kind of weird writing this, but I hope you understand. I think UN really needs his friends right now. See, I've gone through a lot of changes in the past year, mostly as a result of going to therapy. I've been totally reassessing everything in my life, including my relationship with UN. I know this hurts him a lot, and I'm not sure he totally understands where I'm coming from. He wants me to go to marriage counseling, but I don't feel I can do that. I feel like I need to strike out on my own, and I was starting to feel trapped in my marriage. I lived with my parents for a while, but then I came back out here to be "roommates" with UN. That didn't work so well...he was very impatient to get back together with me, but I'm not sure when/if that would happen. Things got really bad a couple weeks ago, and now I'm living with my cousin. I really hate to put UN through this, but I feel that the relationship is unhealthy for both of us, at least right now. I'm not sure if it could ever be right again. We seem to bring out the bad in each other, and have trouble understanding where the other is coming from... this is a little complicated psychologically, so I won't go into the details here. Suffice it to say that UN's clinginess and control issues make it nearly impossible for me to assert myself, which is something I'm really struggling to do right now. He thinks if I leave him, he'll be miserable forever, but that just makes me want to stay out of guilt and obligation. I don't think that's fair.
Anyway, I really don't want you guys to take sides or anything. If anything, I don't mind you seeing me as the bad guy...I just want UN to have the support of his friends. I'm not sure what I'm going to do, and I'm not sure how he's handling all this. He tends to avoid reaching out to people, even when he could use the emotional support. I think he's afraid to admit that anything's wrong. Of course I can understand that.
His birthday is coming up (Sept. 13), and I'm not sure if I'll be comfortable seeing him. I don't want him to be alone though. Maybe you guys could reach out to him a little more during this time? I would really appreciate it. For so long I've put the needs of others ahead of my own, and I'm trying to change that. I want to figure out what *I* want out of life, and that might involve leaving UN. I can't stay with him just because I feel bad for him... but at the same time, I *do* feel bad for him, and I hope his friends can help him through this difficult time. You might not want to tell him I emailed you, because then he'd think you were just hanging out with him out of pity or something. I don't know. I'm so sorry everything is such a mess...and so embarrassed too. I'm just trying to get my head on straight and get my life in order.
I hope you guys are doing okay...
Love, W
I'm going to wait and see if she actually contacts me at all on my b-day. But it sure isn't easy.
Sorry if this went on too long. I'm sure I speak for everyone here when I thank you for spending so much time without anything from us in return (well, we bought your books, but I've bought lots of books and the authors don't take time out of their day for specific readers.)
Username, I happened to catch your post and wanted to tell you that without knowing what you would actually do or say with the tough love approach, it's hard for me to give you feedback. So if you can be more specific, that would help.
The best thing that could happen would be if she calls you on your birthday and either you don't respond because "you're out having fun," or you do speak with her and let her know you're doing just fine. She would find that puzzling, wouldn't she?
I see the confusion. I also can tell that her therapist is helping her out of your marriage, something that happens far too often. That's why I wrote a section on how to choose a good therapist. I wish more people would read that before getting help.
Anyway, if you can be more specific about your tough love intentions, maybe I can offer my feedback. And, you're welcome, by the way. Thanks for your feedback. Michele
(Warning - I sometimes have a problem with being "brief"... maybe if I do a 180 and write shorther posts more people will respond )
First I feel obligated to defend the therapist. The therapist in question is the same one that's trying to help me save the marriage. It isn't him that's destroying it but rather W's perceptions of what he's doing. He's a LMFT who also does group therapy for SAD (I believe he once had it himself and wants to help others since there aren't a lot of doctors who know much about it). The problem is that one of the main problems for SAD sufferers is that they are afraid to assert themselves out of fear of what other people are thinking of them. One of the goals in the therapy is to teach them that it doesn't matter. The problem is that many times people take it too far. My W is one of those people (looking back she's always had a bit of a selfish side - passive aggressive possibly?). When she eventually gave in and told the therapist about what was happening he recommended that they break off their affair and that we begin counselling together. Needless to say, she wasn't too thrilled with that idea and from that point on, all of a sudden found flaws in his SAD therapy too.
With that out of the way, the tough love approach.... Basically, C has a point in that I have been constantly begging her to come back and that I would do anything to make her happy. Even though I've been impatient, I've also stated that I'd wait as long as necessary because I'd rather wait than lose her (Actually, I'm quite ashamed of a lot of the things I said and did after she got back since they were very un-DB even though I knew better.) The note I would write would be rather similar to the example in Love Must be Tough (p. 72-73). I wouldn't refer to OM too much because I'm not sure if he's out of the picture yet or not. I can't really tell her to leave like in the example letter since she's already gone, but I can say that I've tolerated her indecisiveness for a while now and I think it's time to move on, etc. I'm not sure exactly in which way to be tough though. I can't ask her to move out because she already did. I could push for legal separation but I'm really afraid of that backfiring. It would definitely be a huge 180 and would alter the dynamics of the relationship severely if I push for the D and she resists. But if it doesn't work, I can't go back or I lose all the credibility and respect that I'm trying to gain.
And I was already planning on doing something like that on my birthday, so I'm glad you agree with me on that Even if she doesn't see me on my b-day, I know at the very least she'll send me an e-card (she likes those things). Those things usually will email you and let you know when the recipient picked it up. It would make her wonder if I don't pick it up for a few days (she knows I log on every day). Nothing major, I know, but at least it's something. I think at this point, I want her to contact me on my birthday just so I can turn her down and see what happens. What I really wish was that I had a female friend I could start hanging out with a lot to make my W jealous. She definitely would get jealous of things back when we were happy. Unfortunately the only close female friend I have right now is one that W knows I have no romantic feelings towards whatsover (in fact she's one of the people that W wrote that email to that I copied above).
I have only had lunch with her one time. It went very well. We laughed and had a nice time. Messed me up but she and I talked and laughed. Not bad considering this was the day after I called her at her Om house at 0730 am to tell her when I would have the kids back. She did not think I knew until then. Low key dinner. I have been thinking about inviting her out to lunch again but not sure. Yes it worked some but not sure if it was real or not.
Thanks Michele. It is hard to be patient. But I guess I have to try my best. It drives me crazy to have him tell me 4 things and all four contradict each other. I keep reading all of the different postings on this BB hoping that it will help me in this crazy situation.
Regarding Ch 5. "Stop Going Down Cheeseless Tunnels"
You mention the theory that people will keep trying the same method "because they're more intent on proving to themselves that they're right". I'm not saying this is never the case but I think there may be another reason and it may help WAS's understand why their spouses don't respond to their pleas for change. FEAR!!!
2 Months ago my W declared our marriage over. She has been telling me for a long time that our R was in trouble but I kept doing more of the same. Not because I didn't care but because I cared so much I was scared to death. Even if the solution was being dangled right in front of me I was too afraid to try it. Why do I think this is so?
3 weeks after the bomb dropped I was on a diver certification course. While 25' under water my primary breather quit on me. The result was I was getting water mixed with air. With every breath I would choke to expel the water from my lungs. Scary stuff for a new diver, I was terrified. The thing is, every diver has a secondary breather and all I had to do was switch to that breather. I knew this even as I was choking. Problem was I was still getting some air through the primary and I was afraid to switch. I can't be positive but I think if my primary had quit completely I would have switched immediately. Can you see the comparison?
There's a thread by Nicky called "For spouses of walk aways". People like Nicky have every right to be upset but please try to understand, your S is not trying to kill your relationship. Could be they're just scared to death.
I want to say "thank you" again! I've only made it through the introduction of The Divorce Remedy, but am already reaping the rewards of a "refresher course." As you know, I am thrilled to be back in the "tweaking" stage of working on my marriage (a place I would NOT be without the original DB).
Without boring everyone with the minute details, I was feeling rather frustrated this weekend by a "repeat behavior" of my husband - one that he displayed a LOT during his alien abduction a few years ago. I had fallen back into the habit of telling him "I don't like it when you do that." Well after reading just that chapter on Friday night, there's that pesky behaivor on Saturday. Ahhhhhh, but because of the refresher course - instead of nagging him about it, I ignored it, displayed my happy self, and went on with business as usual. In less than 3 minutes, my SWEETIE was back!
Thanks again Michele for a method that works, there are many of us who are proof!
Username, It's entirely possible that by now, you have already given her a letter. If so, I wonder how it went. If not, one thought I had was that you could, rather than give her an ultimatum, simply say that you will no longer tolerate her indecision and that you are going to move on with your life. Then avoid telling her what to do or what you're going to do specifically. Leave her guessing. Plus, this way, you won't box yourself into a corner.
Obviously, the letter can be longer than that, filled with emotion, but without clear guidelines of what you're going to do next. Michele
Tracy, I say go for it. It's hard to know whether it's going to work in the long run, but it seems as if it was a positive experience and it's important to build as many positive experiences as possible. This way, when she evaluates your relationship, she'll have to include that memory. Michele
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Even if she doesn't see me on my b-day, I know at the very least she'll send me an e-card (she likes those things). Those things usually will email you and let you know when the recipient picked it up. It would make her wonder if I don't pick it up for a few days (she knows I log on every day). Nothing major, I know, but at least it's something. I think at this point, I want her to contact me on my birthday just so I can turn her down and see what happens. What I really wish was that I had a female friend I could start hanging out with a lot to make my W jealous. She definitely would get jealous of things back when we were happy. Unfortunately the only close female friend I have right now is one that W knows I have no romantic feelings towards whatsover (in fact she's one of the people that W wrote that email to that I copied above).