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After 6 + months of hell since the 'bomb' and 1 mo. of seperation, W and I are seeing each other about once a week for date night.

Though background info would be helpful for anyone who may want to post their thoughts on this, I don't think I have the energy tonight.

Basically though, W abandoned the relationship emotionally within 3 yrs. of our M, leaving me to take care of everything, including our 1 1/2 yo. D.

It has been a back and forth struggle for me between compassion and anger, but there has been very little passion.

W's health issues, clinical depression and low energy level have burdened me since shortly after our m.

W. was raped 2x within the yr. prior to our engagement. Though she alluded to it b4 marriage, I never understood the ramifications on her or our future sex life.

Unfortunatly our wedding night did not go the way she wanted it ( slow and easy....) and things went downhill from there.
7 yrs. later she tells me for the 1st time that she compared our wedding night to the rapes.

Anyway, I said I didn't have the energy to go into this, but really want to.

The salient point for me tonight is that though we are 'dating'
I am about the to point that unless she shows some initiative in changing herself and the way she interacts with me, I don't know if I give a damn anymore. She is staying at her M's house, but needs to move out in 1 mo. at which time she will get an apartment.

I know I have let her down in many ways, mostly out of ignorance and lack of relationship saavy, but I have done nothing but soul-search, apologise and educate myself since shortly after the bomb.

Though I sort of expected the R to eventually get here,( I even thought I wanted her to leave last fall), when it happened, I realized that that was not what I really wanted. I just wanted to get out of the stalemate we were in, to get past the roadblocks that seemingly had no answers.

Ever since Wedding night, sex has been problematical. She compared me to past lovers and though it was the only way she knew how to get me to change, that made me mad.

She would also freeze up (during sex) with overwhelming emotions that I did not understand. Also, I could not for the life of me understand what she meant when she said she needed to feel 'safe'. ( What was I, a serial killer ? but now I realize this is part of the Post Traumatic Stress Disorder related to the rapes.)

And yes, I have not been the best one to display affection or spend time in foreplay. Nor have I known how to bring her to orgasm.

But in my defense, I was so exhausted working full time, and taking care of everything else related to the house, child and my depressed, migrane-ridden, low-energy wife ( who after she went back to work left all the other stuff to me), that I had very little energy for anything beyond some hugging, kissing and sex shortly thereafter. And then I would fall asleep exhausted.

Anyway, I have a strong Christian faith, and for years have done that which I thought was the right thing by her, but of course it wasn't working. I have wanted our marriage to work. I want our D to have her same mommy and daddy, to see affectionate parents who respect and love each other, resolve differences and endure to grow deeper in love, but I feel my resolve beginning to slip, just when we may be on the mend.

Because I don't see her doing anything to try to deal with her own issues.

Because she is content to accept or reject whatever I bring to her, while I feel she brings me next to nothing in terms of stretching and loving me the way she knows I want to be loved. And I don't really mean sex here. While she was living her it would have meant helping me clean the house, or do the dishes, or take care of our D, or anything that most couples do to share the chores and burdens of everyday life.

Now she has left, it would mean her doing something to try to understand men or relationships better.

I feel I have been growing leaps and bounds since the bomb, and she acknowleges it, but by the same token, I can't tell what she has done to improve herself.

She would say she went to counselling for 7 years trying to fix our M. I agree she went to counselling for 7 yrs., but I was told that the issues she was dealing with were either personal (getting over previous bf's adultry/betrayal,or O/C thought patterns) or occasionally we would go together to try to get past arguements. But I never knew the M was on the line.

I knew she felt really bad, but I had no idea how much of it was because of me. How she didn't feel 'validated' ( had no clue what she meant by that....now I do, after hearing Ellen Kriedman's tapes).

What she wanted was romance....but wtf was that ? I never saw romance between my parents, much less affection or mutual respect.

Yet I thought I was doing good because I tried to be the responsible one when she gave up on everything except her job.

I'm learning what romance and inimacy mean to a woman now (thx Ellen), but I am impatient. I mean, after all, the last 7 yrs. were spent trying to fix this R, albeit with an inadequate formula, but did the best I knew how at the time.

Now that I am trying to learn and fill in the blanks in my R skills full bore, I am upset she doesn't display same willingness to educate herself too.

I don't want to continue to be the one who has to carry the relationship without her finding out how to meet my needs too.

For instance, just b4 the bomb, we were at her mother's house. Her B and his W were there and I watched with envy as his W came up to him, gave him a hug, looked up and said how wonderful he was, etc. God, I would just die with joy if W would treat me that way in private or in public. So, later I was doing stuff on MIL's computer when W tapped me on the shoulder to tell me it was time to leave. I unconsiously jerked my shoulder away as that was not the kind of touch I wanted from her. She broke down in tears saying ' how could you do that when I am feeling like I do ?'
And I'm thinking,'God, what is going on....how is she feeling ? " cause she has a hard time expressing personal things in a way that doesn't come out as an accusation. Like about our wedding night....7 years later !

Btw, I did expressly tell her prior to this incident that I would love it if she would show her affection to me publically ( like around her family). I felt that after all I had put up with, done for her etc. I deserved some appreciation. But I never got it.

And I rarely got to tell my side of the story, even in counselling, without her feeling defensive and angrier. Her own unhappiness and her own drama so filled her experience that my needs did not get expressed often. I also gave up trying to get my needs met since I was so often rebuffed, sexually as well as emotionally.

So here I am, been DBing hard for 3 mos. and she has gone from 'You need to move on', and 'I hope you find someone who can meet your needs' and ILYBINILWY to 'I'm not sure what I want' and 'We can date, but don't smother me'.

And I don't know if I have the energy for it anymore.

On top of that, the most awful/wonderful thing happened late last week.

One of the moms who has a kid at D's afterschool caught my eye. The flirtation was mutual but brief.

And people, she is incredibly hot. Don't know if she's M/D/S
yet.

So my dilemma:

Me: Faithful, patient, longsuffering DAM

W: depressed, non-responsive and sometimes hurtful WAS who I love but who doesn't really try to look good or make an effort to learn anything new re: relationships.

She: Hottest young woman that's shown an interest in me in years...i mean sizzling! ;\) Someone I could have fun being with for a change.....

If W had not left me, even if she never changed, I would not seriously entertain any flirtation.

But I don't know what I want anymore. \:\(

And that is almost as bad as knowing what I want (a happy, loving R with W) and not having it.

Help!


Last edited by ncnative; 09/10/08 03:11 AM.

Me 47, W 32,D 6,
Met 11 yrs. ago, M 7
Bomb 4/08/08, Sep. 8/10/08, Div. 8/10/09

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Well, it's not DB, but I will tell you that a lot of WAW's become "unconfused" real quick when they realize that someone else finds the LBS attractive.

Funny as hell how that can wake them up.

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You know, I think the same thing. But I don't want to play games with this OW.

Still, its nice to be noticed.


Me 47, W 32,D 6,
Met 11 yrs. ago, M 7
Bomb 4/08/08, Sep. 8/10/08, Div. 8/10/09

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Originally Posted By: native
So, later I was doing stuff on MIL's computer when W tapped me on the shoulder to tell me it was time to leave. I unconsiously jerked my shoulder away as that was not the kind of touch I wanted from her.



Ok so you say your W has a problem showing emotions and then when she touches you the only way she knows how... YOU TAKE IT PERSONAL....... Dude I had (and still do a little) the same problem.
So do you think by "jerked my shoulder away" you are encouraging her to ever touch you again? I don't think so...

As for a depressed Wife with low self esteem... let me introduce you to my wife. And no my W was not raped but there was an attempted rape that she escaped. So I know where you are coming from guy...

You said you have read some books. Didn't any of them say you first need to detach just enough to know you can live without her if you choose to? Also you need to reach out to her without expecting anything in return. I am no expert but I have been here for a while. I have spent days picking out our anniversary present only to receive not even a card. I planed dates that would have had more fun if I brought my sister. But slowly VEEEEERY slowly things are starting to turn. My W is starting to show some interest. Do you plan your dates? This is a problem I have is that I planed the date and worked at trying to give W a good time. But I have turned the tables now. I am having W plan a date. She is the one that will plan out the evening so I don't have to worry.
Hey guy I think your biggest issue right now is taking things personal. Try not to... as for

Originally Posted By: native

One of the moms who has a kid at D's after school caught my eye. The flirtation was mutual but brief.

And people, she is incredibly hot. Don't know if she's M/D/S
yet.



Don't even go there. Unless you ARE getting divorced. The jealousy thing is less than a 50-50 chance especially for you when she already said she hopes you can find somebody.

I will admit though it is nice to be noticed... BTDT

Originally Posted By: native


So my dilemma:

Me: Faithful, patient, longsuffering DAM

W: depressed, non-responsive and sometimes hurtful WAS who I love but who doesn't really try to look good or make an effort to learn anything new re: relationships.

She: Hottest young woman that's shown an interest in me in years...i mean sizzling! ;\) Someone I could have fun being with for a change.....



I don't see a dilemma, you are married.
Originally Posted By: native


If W had not left me, even if she never changed, I would not seriously entertain any flirtation.



Me too. I have said this very same thing

Originally Posted By: native


But I don't know what I want anymore. \:\(



Ya you do, you would not be here if you didn't want to work on your marriage.


Dr Love


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It surely means that I don't know
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My first thought about her being in C for 7 yrs is that I don't think anything seemed to help her during that time (edit - at least to issues that would make her feel more loving, caring & closer to you). Also, she truly should NOT have gotten married at the time she did, w/ all the issues that she seemed to still have regarding the past and then what happened to her just a month before the wedding, no matter how much she thought she loved you or thought you would somehow change or help how she felt (which is totally unfair to you) in some way after she married you.

Sounds like she has a LOT of issues that don't even DIRECTLY relate to you and she has absolutely no desire to fix anything (or so it seems) to help herself or your M.

I don't know if I could continue on in such an unhealthy R/M either. It is absolutely unhealthy and unfair to YOU.

This is totally not DB'ing, but to be honest it sounds like you have been DB'ing since the day you got married, but I would check out this other chick. YOU also have a right to be happy and in a healty R/M. YOU have a right to a happy, fulfilled life too! If she has no desire to help herself or try to show you that you mean absolutely anything to her, or for her to even show you in any way that she acknowledges how much you have done for her and/or tried to help her over the years, she isn't doing ANYTHING to try to *work* on this M.

I don't know, dude, I say go see what's up w/ that other chick. YOu totally have a right to a *LIFE* too and you've already given up 7+ years trying to help your W get a/life, or at least a better life, and she doesn't seem to want to even try to help herself.

Others would probably not agree w/ me here either, (I seem to be completely on your side and do not think your W has done anything to remotely make your life happy for YEARS) but even if she begins to start showing interest all of a sudden if she thinks you may be seeing someone else or went on a date, etc., I think you should get into IC and figure out if you would even be able to live w/ her again as your W. I think there would be *MAJOR* issues for you to get over, the one I can think of right away would be a LOT of resentment toward your W as to how she has treated you, acted, lived, etc. the last 7+ yrs. You may not be able to let go of that and then give up something new that could be wonderful for you.

I will say, however, in terms of my whole D bomb sitch, it was my H that dropped the bomb and we had been married for about 7 yrs and I honestly will admit that I had acted pretty badly for most of that time, or at least after the boys started being born, and he had said he could forgive me for a lot of things, but could not seem to FORGET. Anyway, we went through our sitch for about 3 mnths before he decided to "come back" to our M (which is a relatively short period of time in DB'ing terms), but what I'm trying to say is parts of your story could have been told by my H pre-bomb, however, we are in a really wonderful place now. So, I guess I'm saying it could go either way -- you need to at least take this all slow and make sure you don't end up hurting either woman or yourself.

That's just my $.02 this a.m.

Last edited by RedHeadWife; 09/12/08 11:10 AM.

Me: 38
H: 35
S4, S5, S10
Bomb 01/07
Wanted D - nothing would change his mind
Numerous A's prior to D bomb; EA prior/during D bomb
Piecing 04/07
Deployed for a year 05/07
Still Piecing 2010
M 11 yrs 05/10
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Also, I'm not taking the fact you have a daughter lightly either. I know divorce is ugly and could be even uglier in your sitch as far as how your W has been acting. However, sometimes the positives outweigh the negatives in these situations. Your D could be better off growing up knowing another adult woman (such as your new girlfriend, to be wife, etc.) as it doesn't seem that your W is going to be all that great of an influence on how women should live their lives on your D.


Me: 38
H: 35
S4, S5, S10
Bomb 01/07
Wanted D - nothing would change his mind
Numerous A's prior to D bomb; EA prior/during D bomb
Piecing 04/07
Deployed for a year 05/07
Still Piecing 2010
M 11 yrs 05/10
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 5,927
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Originally Posted By: RedHeadWife

I don't know, dude, I say go see what's up w/ that other chick. YOu totally have a right to a *LIFE* too and you've already given up 7+ years trying to help your W get a/life, or at least a better life, and she doesn't seem to want to even try to help herself.


Red,

So I Guess this means that there are things that justify CHEATING? Because you were not in a good place a while back it was ok for your husband to cheat on you?
This is the first thing I told my wife. IF YOU ARE NOT HAPPY YOU DIVORCE FIRST not cheat / HURT...

Red I am disappointed

Dr LOve
\:\(


And if I claim to be a wise man, well
It surely means that I don't know
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Ok, get over it "Dr. Love," get down off your high horse, I don't see you a terrific place yet either. I DID NOT tell him to cheat on his wife, nor did I tell him it was OK TO CHEAT, now did I. What I told him was he needs to figure out if his M is able to be saved or if he is done even trying to save it. His WIFE HAS BEEN IN COUNSELING FOR A GOOD LONG TIME AND IT DOESN'T SEEM TO HAVE HELPED HER ONE BIT. At that point, he could figure out if he is ready to start dating. In the meantime, IT DOESN'T HURT to look around i.e. the woman he saw at school.

His wife is in absolutely no position, and this is what it sounds to me from what he has written AND COMPLETELY MY OPINION I better add so I don't "get in trouble" for giving advice to anyone again, to be in any sort of relationship. I FEEL he has done enough to try to help her and now it's time for her to help herself, but she doesn't seem to want to do that. How long exactly is he supposed to wait for her to figure things out?

Like I said, I never told him cheating is ok -- if you want to bring MY MARRIAGE/ISSUES/CHEATING into this whole scenerio, MY HUSBAND CHEATED ON ME WHILE WE WERE MARRIED FOUR DIFFERENT TIMES AND I HAD NO IDEA HE WAS EVEN UNHAPPY -- TOTALLY DIFFERENT SITUATION, thanks.

Last edited by RedHeadWife; 09/12/08 02:44 PM.

Me: 38
H: 35
S4, S5, S10
Bomb 01/07
Wanted D - nothing would change his mind
Numerous A's prior to D bomb; EA prior/during D bomb
Piecing 04/07
Deployed for a year 05/07
Still Piecing 2010
M 11 yrs 05/10
Joined: May 2007
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Originally Posted By: RedHeadWife

I don't know, dude, I say go see what's up w/ that other chick


And if I claim to be a wise man, well
It surely means that I don't know
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Originally Posted By: RedHeadWife
At that point, he could figure out if he is ready to start dating. In the meantime, IT DOESN'T HURT to look around i.e. the woman he saw at school.

His wife is in absolutely no position, and this is what it sounds to me from what he has written AND COMPLETELY MY OPINION I better add so I don't "get in trouble" for giving advice to anyone again, to be in any sort of relationship. I FEEL he has done enough to try to help her and now it's time for her to help herself, but she doesn't seem to want to do that. How long exactly is he supposed to wait for her to figure things out?


Again, get off YOUR HIGH HORSE -- did you even read my second post to you. Ok, now I'm done though b/c I'm not going to hijack his post anymore w/ this petty back & forth. He can read what we both have said and take it how he wants to take it. It's advice -- he can take it to heart or he can take it as a grain of salt. HE'S GOING TO DO WHAT HE'S GOING TO DO IN THE LONG RUN ANYWAY.


Me: 38
H: 35
S4, S5, S10
Bomb 01/07
Wanted D - nothing would change his mind
Numerous A's prior to D bomb; EA prior/during D bomb
Piecing 04/07
Deployed for a year 05/07
Still Piecing 2010
M 11 yrs 05/10
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