yeah it hurt. Especially because when this happend I was pregnant. My imagination went wild. being I was 9 months pregnant at the time I listend to this conversation I imagined what they must of been doing on all these rides. I imagined them doing all this nasty freaky stuff I would never do and laughing at me and how lousy the sex must be with me being I was pregnant...it still hurts sometimes. not always but sometimes, like when I started this thread.
yes he knows I listend to the conversation. I listend for a long time before I finally spoke up on the phone. He was drunk at the time. I just question how much alcohol really affects someone. I mean yeah I know it really affects someone but does it release their inner feelings that they otherwise hide? My counselor said some people can be made mean by alcohol and are not themselves under the influence.
any how even though I listend to what they were saying he swears nothing was going on. That I wasnt meant to hear that conversation and they wouldnt have talked that way in front of me. I said of course not. but you shouldnt be talking that way period! infront, behind, over, under, any where! we did have some long talks. Then I dropped it when I felt he understood. He says the things they were saying was just drunk BS. That the only time she was on his bike was once around the block when he was at a friends house who she was engaged to at the time. But they didnt sound sarcastic when they were talking about all the miles they racked up together and at that time he was off on rides every night. now he isnt going on rides or even going out with his friends.
The previous affair he wont admit to. When things were really really bad between us. He was talking to a friend of mine about it. crying about how I will leave him if I found out and how this woman is crazy etc. I didnt need to be told. He was comming home after 5am not a real brain drainer there. When I told him she told me about their conversations he then said well he was just saying that to her. That he felt so unwanted by me he wanted her to think someone wanted him. Since she was talking about her affairs... nothing I was or am buying.
Its the whole lack of honesty and my not able to prove one way or the other he isnt being honest other then its just ludicrous to believe what he says. When he found out about my developing feelings for someone else I was honest. I answered all his questions and told the truth about my feelings and everything.
When I reflect on my own feelings of what I went through when my heart was unfaithful. I know with out a doubt that is a place I never ever want to go again. I never want to feel that inner conflict again. So I dont know if maybe he feels the same way now or not.
ok I forgot whatever it was I was going to say after I read your post...
Re: "Once a Cheater Always a Cheater???"#76140 04/18/0202:38 PM04/18/0202:38 PM
Sue, The only way to find out if he does feel the same way is to talk about it. One thing LF has bought out in me is me. I have a job where I am pretty much alone with my thoughts all the time. Computer rooms are pretty lonely places. My ex watched as over the years I slowly kept more and more to myself.
LF makes me talk. She probes and pokes. Makes my head spin sometimes with her atty like ways of making me talk. I swear sometimes she is running circles around me. But I like it. I express my fears and wants and desires more. She has always been super honest with me. Tells me everything that bothers her or concerns her.
My ex stopped that and come to think of it, never was very good at expressing herself hence all the lies and deceit with gg. When all she had to tell me was the truth. How can you DB lies? The truth I can handle. Its the not knowing that cause's everyone anxiety. I told the truth to LF about my ex and why I did some of the things I did but she had anxiety that I would leave her for my ex. So much so that she drove me away in other ways. The self fulfilling prophecy. Sure I could have made a play for ex over these 7 months. Why waste my time with someone who still blames me for all her heartache? Talk to the man and talk some more.. Ron
Re: "Once a Cheater Always a Cheater???"#76141 04/18/0203:05 PM04/18/0203:05 PM
I know you are right about talking to him. He gets defensive. which then gets me hmmming on why so defensive. Part of me feels like I cant say anything because this is what I deserve. this is what I get for having feelings for someone else before. ya know the infamous what comes around goes around. I guess part of me is afraid that he will get some sort of pleasure out of seeing this hurts me being he was hurt by me.
A while back we got in an argument about my screename for my email. being its my actual name he thinks I did that so someone could find me if they wanted to. no I just hate thinking up screennames thats all. I know what someone he was referring to. I reacted and spouted off about the nasty ho (sorry Mick she earned her name) throwing accusations.... I know I shouldnt have done that, I of all people... anyhow he just said well maybe its your turn to stuff things down etc. so I fight with myself.
[ April 18, 2002, 11:07 AM: Message edited by: Sue ]
Re: "Once a Cheater Always a Cheater???"#76142 04/18/0205:31 PM04/18/0205:31 PM
Mick, "The opportunity arise's and then there really is little turning back especailly with men...an erection has very little conscience.."
My counselor told me an erection only means the equipment is in proper working order, dosnt mean you have to use it.......
Yes and he may have also added that a lot of men would have gone ahead and tested it anyway "just to make sure"...
Well of course it's a choice and I never said it was'nt,I said by the time it has reached that stage for men at least (not all but most..)it is too late...the choice not to have one night stands and affairs with others it taken long before this point is reached and those that intend keeping to their commitment to another dont allow themselves to be in compromising situations to begin with.(Sue et al believe me I am way to old in the tooth and educated to believe an erection drives every man to to sex or that an erection even signifys desire because it does'nt it signifys arousal only and are different things...indeed a man can wake in the morning and have a erection which is'nt brought on by desire but by pressure in the bladder) my comment about erections was not a justification or excuse just and observation that by the time this is happening at an opportune moment then most men will go ahead and have sex....ergo the comment an erect penis has no conscience.... Kingdoms have been thrown away for a few grabbed moments of illicit sex.....
Re: "Once a Cheater Always a Cheater???"#76143 04/18/0207:20 PM04/18/0207:20 PM
sorry if I insulted your inteligence. It was the combination of that statement along with the one about having afairs because they can, that lead to my interpretation.
"the choice not to have one night stands and affairs with others it taken long before this point is reached and those that intend keeping to their commitment to another dont allow themselves to be in compromising situations to begin with"
this was what I was trying to make my H understand when he was swearing up and down he never touched her. There are many lines that are crossed before you reach the 'insert penis here' sign. To me whether he consumated this relationship yet or not is beside the point. his behavior, speaking purley of what I listend to, crossed many lines. Being he wouldnt discuss it with me and insists it was nothing but drunk talk makes me wonder who he really is and if I really know him.
I do believe people can change. I believe people can trip and fall down. at that point of either falling or turning off their beaten path, they can decide where it is they want to go and whether or not they liked where they were at. It dosnt have to define who you are. It just seems if someone is staying faithful because they are suposed to but really liked being a cheater its not going to work. By the time they reach the point of actually physically cheating they have reached a comfort level with it. Even if he manages to control himself, just him wanting to be elsewhere is unerving.
I am having a good day though
Re: "Once a Cheater Always a Cheater???"#76144 04/18/0208:59 PM04/18/0208:59 PM
Sue, I so agree with you. It is totally unnerving when my h tells me he's not sure if he can stop. On the other hand, there's a mini breakthrough in the fact that he's being somewhat honest. However, I don't understand why he doesn't just CHOOSE to stop and then get help to support him and help him stick to the decision.
Mick's comments were not only misunderstood by you, but by myself as well. I thought he was making terribly flip comments, until he explained better.
People do not have affairs because they can, or because they cannot keep their plumbing in their pants. They have affairs to fill a hole inside of them by seeking out the "feeling", the high, in the all the wrong places. It's not just about sex. In my h's case he loves the adoration he gets from strangers. He takes this as real because he believes that we have to love him (or say we do) because we're his family. He doesn't realize that unconditional love is given from free will and not from being held hostage by it. The last ho not only hung all over him, she had her kids doing it too, further reinforcing his belief that they must truly love him.
Therein lies my dilemma and pain. I give this love freely and it's tossed in the dirt, yet I still love the person that I married with the hole exposed. When I take the angry/hurt wife out of the picture, and am objective I see a person hurting and starving for some kind of understanding. But it's hard to keep myself in that objective place, because I am emotionally involved with him, and have been hurt myself, but this time I am making a conscious effort not to wallow in the pain. As long as I stay in that detached place, I have empathy for him. When I stray back to hurt wife role, I feel pain for ME.
And I can tell you, that the longer I spend detached, and outside of the hurt wife role, the easier it is for me to view the whole thing (hole thing ) very clinically. It's easier on him too because he doesn't feel my wrath and pain.
Flip the coin, if he doesn't get a good dose of my wrath and pain will it impact him enough, or shock him into reality? It's the age old dilemma---like the problem of detaching---how much distance is too much distance---to where we become invisible, and they just carry on their merry way until life hits them over the head like a ton of bricks and they hit bottom, suddenly realizing all that they lost, and it's too late?
It's hard to walk that tightrope between the 2 places, but it is getting easier. The kids also feel a great deal of empathy for their dad, a tiny bit of anger and a little bit of pity. But not much sadness for themselves. They were worried about me, but realize I'm in a better mental place this time so they are coping nicely. Their biggest concern is if I will get to keep the house so they can have a "home base". Neither of them are acting out like they did before, either. We all learned a great deal from the last round of this.
Now, I am noticing that my reactions have had an eerie effect on him. It's like a 180 from my reactions 3 years ago--no whoop ass, no begging pleading, screaming. No tossing him out or emptying his closet on the bathroom floor. Even in the first couple days at ground zero, I was much different than I was last time. He has even commented on that. I cried the first day a few times, but not since. I have not gone into paralysis like I did before. I have a normal (not under or excessive) appetite, but I am sticking to my low carb diet. I am sleeping (except for the hotel bed on the business trip, but I always have trouble on the road.) Last night I went out with my friends and won $25 at Bunco. I have faith in God, and in myself. And I believe that God truly does help those who help themselves. I know I will be ok no matter what.
Last time there were days on end that I didn't get out of bed and I cried for hours at a time. I didn't eat or drink anything but a few sips of water, or sleep for 5 or 6 days at a time. I spent alot of my waking hours at the throne of the porcelain goddess. And the anger spewed out of me. The things I said were very horrible, inappropriate, without filters and in places where I had no business saying them. I was a trainwreck.
Well, I need to stop now, this is rambling, but I hope it makes some sense.
Re: "Once a Cheater Always a Cheater???"#76145 04/20/0204:19 AM04/20/0204:19 AM
your 'rambling' makes perfect sense. actually what you had to say reminds me so much of where I was at in dealing with my H's alcoholism. It seemed so simple to me, you know you need help, go get it. The grand false myth of if you loved me you would quit or get help to.
Its easier to look at it clinically. it removes you from the victim place.
the first time he got help. when he went through BFC. I placed everything in the disease basket. for a good while I almost felt like ok I am over everything because this poor man has suffered so and nothing he did was his fault it was the disease. After a while... I started to feel anger again. Like BS you are not getting off that easy! you are responsible for what you did. the violence, forcing himself on me, verbal abuse... the mountain of crap. When I saw so much bad stuff still happening while he was sober. Recovery is no bowl of cherries and at times in the begining was much harder then then before he got help. I kept reminding myself they said the first year would be the hardest and there would be times I would just wish he would go back to drinking.
I went through A LOT of internal conflict over the fact I still loved him after everything. I felt like such a fool. Like how pathetic could I be to go through all I have and still be here. I wanted to punish him by not loving him anymore. though at the time I didnt realize it. Too much anger for what I chose to let myself go through.
you are hurt by your love being tossed in the dirt. I hear you! I was angry that after all he had put me through, all we had put each other through, and were now going in a good direction.. he could be where he was with the nasty ho. I worked so hard to forgive him and it was so painful to stay with him and deal with the past. It just seemed like a huge slap in the face. Like there was no way he could have been sorry for what he did before.
It is a very good thing he has had his breakthrough and is being honest with himself and you. Its a very small step that preceeds many others. There is going to be much heartache ahead. Its a long path GG. One of the things I kept thinking about along the way is pretty much what Paul has said to you a couple of times. where are you going to be a few years down the road? its going to be painful in either direction in the begining. I had to get over and deal with the past regardless. I looked at it as do I really want to start over with someone else building an entire new house from scratch. Or would I be much further along by remodeling the one I have. five years down the road where would I be with each house? could I already be remodeling the new one when the one I have I could be past the remodeling stage, done decorating and having just what I want.
I do believe they do need to experience the wrath and pain. I think when I was so calm understanding and forgiving he didnt feel the impact. Its part of the consequences of their choices to reap what they sow. I dont think people should be protected from the pain they caused, or their growth is stunted. I know this from being on both sides of that one. When I had developed feelings for someone else I thought well its only human nature. I was abused and beaten down. felt like I was drowning and he was the one that grabbed my hand and pulled my head above water. I felt all that mattered was I didnt act on my feelings. I was faithful physically. To me my H should of just understood that. had I not seen how much pain that caused him I could have been stuck there. hey I had choices. I could have sought help through counseling instead of numbing myself the way I did. getting my emotional needs filled the way I did allowed me to be stuck in my bad situation. I can see where I rationalized and justified. I dont think I have fully forgiven myself for it either. I am trying to not judge myself then by who I am now. I dont want his pain to all be for not and I dont want my pain to be for not. Its not so much about the price you pay (guilt or hurt) from someones wrath and not wanting to feel that again but about opening your eyes and getting real understanding. shoot I cant express what I am trying to say. maybe it will come to me later.
oh that detaching (how much) question has been on my mind before. Sure I get over things pretty well. I can detach very well. But just how much am I suposed to go through? In the past I got over nearly being killed in his rages I dont even know how many times. sure thats not a life I can go back to. but I dont know when you say ok thats it no more. when you are used to forgiving and letting go. how many bombs? I am faced with the possiblity of him falling down and going back to drinking. do I leave then? do I just do like I did the last time and just go on with my life letting his problem be his problem and I just dont really have a partner until he decides he is ready to get back up again. Maybe thats what I am signed up for. for now I am living in the moment. just enjoying what I have today. theres just no guarantees about tomorrow in any situation.
you know I think my diferent reactions had an effect on my H as well. by me going nuts and vandalizing his Harley I think in some strange way made him realize I care. where as my old understanding calm nature made him feel like I didnt. he used to complain nothing affected me. oh things affected me I just kept it to myself. was afraid sharing my pain made me very vunerable. The next day after the nasty ho bomb when I listend to him talking to her on the phone telling her what I did to the bike. She was saying how she wouldnt have done that (yeah right) but she bet I felt much better now. nope! I felt like dirt doing that. had to force myself. it wasnt me. do not like destruction. I wanted to hurt them and thats the only thing that popped into my head. not a behavior I intend on making mine though.
careful on the low carbs. I think it can make you feel irratable and depressed. so watch yourself. I know you spent 16 years being a nurse but sometimes medical people make the worse patients
take care GG Sue
Re: "Once a Cheater Always a Cheater???"#76146 04/19/0205:14 PM04/19/0205:14 PM
Sue, Re: the low carbs...I come from a long line of diabetic Indians and Italians. I cannot metabolize carbs like most people. I do really well and feel lots better on low carb diets, although I get bored because I miss the breads and pastas and spuds. But, I'd rather give them up than my vision or my kidneys (or a leg---like my gram did). I do drink about a gallon of water per day to flush out the purines.
I am doing OK mentally, but had a mild set back last night...
H told me on the way home from work yesterday that his boss was worried about me causing a scene in h's lab. Apparently a couple people have told him about the "rumors". I was angry. I had urged my h to talk to his boss about what was going on and that he was getting help right from the get go, before he finds out from someone else....but he would not. Once again, he should have listened to me. Get this...the boss told him there's nothing wrong with ofice romances as long as it doesn't impact the work. Another case of flexible ethics and morals...
So, I asked his boss to meet with me today. I apologized for confronting my husband in his lab that day I got the note, and I showed him the note. He was floored. He wasn't told that the fooling around was going on at work. Or that my work is being impacted by this kind of thing. So, I told him my h has problems with addictions, gave him a few things to think about, told him my h is in therapy and I felt he needed to know that he is working on things. And assured him that I would not cause him any trouble.
I don't need my reputation being tarnished in this company. I have a lot of years here and a good reputation. I don't need the gossip any more than h's boss does. I really hope I get this other job. I'd sure like to be in the other building, away from all this crap.
Velvet, Many congratulations on your recovery. I hope my h has a similar success.
Talk to you later, GG
Re: "Once a Cheater Always a Cheater???"#76147 04/23/0212:42 PM04/23/0212:42 PM
In my case, once has turned into always.... but we ALL know that's because of ME.... as soon as he hooks up w/ the right person, this will stop, right?
After we were married, I found out he'd slept with his friend's girlfriend when we were dating (but after he & I became serious)... I just blew this off as well we were dating altho I was hurt by it.
Then 3 yrs into marriage, he had a one night stand. (He never wanted to leave after this). Also had kissy face on several occassions w/ another friend of ours.
7 yrs into marriage, he had short affair w/ client on one of his jobs. (He left & decided to come back 2 months later).
Now, there was another (if not more) affair since then,... with "Ms. Perfect" his co-worker. He has never admitted it. He admitted to out therapist "there have been affairs"... well, therapist already knew about the ones above so I assume he was talking about the otherS.
He is Passive agressive and still blames me for countless things all the way back to 18 years ago & going to Europe togther.
Now that I look back & remember, there were other times when we were dating when I would catch him at a party "talking" in a very private place w/ someone, or at least that's what they were doing when I came in (but I was calling his name)...
Guess I should have known, but I just wanted to be loved, enjoyed being with him, and his family. He is a very likeable guy.