Your answer is to do both...work on what you have control over that can possibly have a positive impact on the M, while allowing W to grow too. You're absolutely right to continue working on you and to work up some limits and goals--expectations can still be killer, but hopefully it's time for some real steps toward putting this all together into a happy, healthy M.
Thanks for your welcome. It's so simple, but yeah, that's the answer. Work on what's in my control and give W plenty of room to grow.
Yesterday we had our first fight since contemplating reconciliation. We went grocery shopping. W has some issues with social anxiety and tends to get stressed out in such situations. Her fuse with me (and our son) is quite short in such situations. Well, she got frustrated and took it out on me in the store a bit. I felt crushed and trampled on as a result. A brief description of the initial trigger: we walked into the store (fresh produce section), W asked what kind of fruit I wanted. I said bananas. W got visibly annoyed. She said she assumed bananas, but what kind of fruit did I want. I then responded that I wasn't sure, what would she like.
There're a bunch of long standing issues tied into this, and they continued till we got home. We were unpacking the groceries and S was helping me at the table. He started to pick something up and I told him to wait for a second because mommy has a system. She reacted by saying that in 7 years I don't know the system, I don't respect her system, I don't ever listen to her, etc. I got upset, and had had enough. I went to the bedroom and closed the door for a bit. I told her I needed a minute (she was angry at that point that I was leaving everything to her).
I came out in literally a minute and apologized. I told her how I felt as a result of the trip to the store and that I respect her systems in general. She expressed frustration that I think of them as her systems, not OUR systems. I responded that I understood and expressed my desire to establish "our" systems. We have several already, but I think it's important to have a sense of pride in our family identity, and that comes from such things. I think she has a sense of being criticized and judged as inadequate, not smart, etc., when I don't incorporate her systems into my day to day.
Anyway, we talked more and seemed to make a bit of progress. We each listened and understood each other. While eating dinner I asked the question: what could we each have done to improve what happened in the store? We discussed things that would have helped, and also went through the whole banana ordeal to understand what each other was trying to communicate and where the breakdown occurred. Basically, she assumed bananas since we always get them and thought "Fruit" meant something else. I was thinking bananas were fruit and when it became clear to me that she wasn't looking at things this way I had to shift gears to consider what other kind of fruit to get, so I opted to discuss it and come to some kind of concensus. She dislikes it when I answer a question with a question, hence the snowball.
The thing that really got me was that afterwards she said something to the effect of "I think we're doing really well. Look, we were even able to navigate conflict". I asked her if she would consider doing some kind of program to help us learn skills to aid in communication, etc. (I've been thinking about Retrouville) to which she responded that that is a bit too much to think about now, especially since a small amount of pressure makes her want to run away.
It was a bit emotionally draining and uncomfortable evening, but in the end I walked away feeling positive. I believe she did as well. The fact that she has an optimistic outlook on the evening is a real change for me. Not too long ago she would have responded to the exchange by saying that it proved that we aren't right for each other, that we don't work, etc. Even though she said something to this effect during the heat of her frustration (she is frustrated that I don't listen well enough, and said that she thinks we didn't know each other well enough to get married).
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Basically, she assumed bananas since we always get them and thought "Fruit" meant something else. I was thinking bananas were fruit
I'm sorry...I'm giggling a little bit here. My H and I have little miscommunications like this too, our minds just work different, and that's the way it is. I admire the way you both worked through this, it was good that you addressed it in a positive way.
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she is frustrated that I don't listen well enough, and said that she thinks we didn't know each other well enough to get married
Sounds to me like it is more that she is frustrated you can't read her mind...and every couple has these kind of issues. Hopefully as you work together she will come to realize that it's as much her responsibility to communicate effectively as yours.
A possible solution to this scenario in the future might be to work on a specific list before you walk into a situation that causes anxiety for her. Perhaps you already thought of that.
I've been reading a book about raising 'spirited' kids, and they talk about taking as many precautions as possible when you know you are going into a situation that will be difficult for them. Planning ahead is a pain-in-the-rear, but can pay big dividends in things running more smoothly. Same goes for 'spirited' adults.
As for her/your systems, I think you have a great opportunity to work on making them work for you both...hiccups happen, it's how you deal with them that matters, and I think you did a lovely job keeping your head and resolving the incident.
Yes, I understand now what you are saying. I would probably feel the same as you do. However, from the logical POV, (you know, all those books we read), there are no promises that a M will ever reach that 100% that you are talking about. Every M I have ever know personally (certainly not the movie versions) have had one of the spouses working harder than the other. I know it takes two to make a good M, but usually in real life one spouse works harder at it than the other. You may know some people where it is not that way....I just don't happen to know any that work equally at the R. And of course, there are no perfect marriages. Over the years there are many changes and stages to "muddlethrough".
I remember seeing here on the board a forum or thread about that very subject. It was something about can a M survive with just one partner working at it. You might want to look it up.
I remember thinking that my grandparents, who were married longer than 65 years, were in that catagory where she did all the work b/c I saw very little that he did. However, I didn't see what went on behind closed doors. In the world we live in today, we probably would not have endured some of the aggrivation that she did. But, they loved each other a lot and she was lost without him when he died.
What we decide about staying in a M and how much we are willing to change ourselves and how much we are willing to work.....regardless of how little the other S works or not.....it is all a personal decision that we make. However, I don't think you are going to get that 100% assurance that you ae wanting before you roll up your sleeves and get to work with the mind set that you are going to give it your all. Remember, I know where you are coming from, but we just don't get those guarantees in life.
I felt like I was the one doing all the work for so many years. Then I hear my H saying that he has tried everything he knew to do and nothing seem to make me happy! I was never so shocked in my life. I hadn't seen him do anything I considered working on our MR. So perhaps it is in the eye of the beholder.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I'm sorry...I'm giggling a little bit here. My H and I have little miscommunications like this too, our minds just work different, and that's the way it is. I admire the way you both worked through this, it was good that you addressed it in a positive way.
I agree that people (and particularly M/W) think differently. There's nothing wrong with it in my mind. It's just one of those things you have to accept and consider. W on the other hand seems to think that it's a tragic flaw in our R that we think so differently. It makes it difficult when conflict ensues because it's tinged with confirmation of her belief that we shouldn't be together.
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Sounds to me like it is more that she is frustrated you can't read her mind...and every couple has these kind of issues. Hopefully as you work together she will come to realize that it's as much her responsibility to communicate effectively as yours.
The mind reading expectation is there to some degree or other. I do think we're coming to terms with our own responsibilities when it comes to communicating effectively.
Out of curiosity, what's the title of that book?
Thanks for your encouragement.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
However, from the logical POV, (you know, all those books we read), there are no promises that a M will ever reach that 100% that you are talking about.
I guess I didn't quite articulate this properly. I'm not interested in promises that our M will be perfect, idealic, etc., I'm interested in being invested in a M where both partners are growing towards the same goals of a functional and satisfying R. As for the distribution of the work, not all work can be quantified in the same way, and as long as there's committment from both sides (honest personal committment, not just a promise to another), then there's work being done in the direction of progress.
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I remember thinking that my grandparents, who were married longer than 65 years, were in that catagory where she did all the work b/c I saw very little that he did. However, I didn't see what went on behind closed doors. In the world we live in today, we probably would not have endured some of the aggrivation that she did. But, they loved each other a lot and she was lost without him when he died.
We seldom are able to truly see a R for what it means to others no matter how much we see. The same is true for each participant in a M. The meaning of the M to my W, her experience, that's hers alone. I can never truly understand it, nor can family or friends or doctors, etc. Somehow integrating this meaning and experience with overall life goals and those of one's partner enrich and enhance our lives to the point where total devestation can result from the death of a spouse - moreso than that of any other relation.
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I don't think you are going to get that 100% assurance that you ae wanting before you roll up your sleeves and get to work with the mind set that you are going to give it your all. Remember, I know where you are coming from, but we just don't get those guarantees in life.
Again, I tried to make this point myself. I know that unless I give it my all that when I step back to evaluate my perspective will be clouded by my own lacking.
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I felt like I was the one doing all the work for so many years. Then I hear my H saying that he has tried everything he knew to do and nothing seem to make me happy! I was never so shocked in my life. I hadn't seen him do anything I considered working on our MR. So perhaps it is in the eye of the beholder.
Doesn't this blow your mind!?! When my W said she tried, I had to really think about it. I wanted to discount it immediately. I did in fact tell her that if she had really tried it would have had to be done in such and such way. The fact is that she did under the conditions as they were. Not really productive efforts, but effort none the less. I suppose this is exactly why communication is so critical. We can each set up our own experiments to guage the efforts of another, but unless we define the parameters of this test together, we come up with nothing but lopsided judgments.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
I do think we're coming to terms with our own responsibilities when it comes to communicating effectively.
Great! It definitely takes two. Time and continuing effort will make a difference.
The name of the book I mentioned is "Raising Your Spirited Child" by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka. It shares information and ideas for dealing with different types of sensitivity/intensity, etc. in kids, but the principles definitely apply to adults too.
W has some issues with social anxiety and tends to get stressed out in such situations. Her fuse with me (and our son) is quite short in such situations. Well, she got frustrated and took it out on me in the store a bit.
Does you wife take medication for social anxiety? There are AD meds for that if it is serious.....and it sounds like it is.
I am curious about something. Are one of you a perfectionist or maybe both of you, b/c you both talk about your systems.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
My H and I have little miscommunications like this too, our minds just work different, and that's the way it is. I admire the way you both worked through this, it was good that you addressed it in a positive way.