Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 4 1 2 3 4
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,694
ANS Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,694
Lily, I agree that we have to stop trying to read each other’s minds. The kicker is that we don’t seem to talk enough. We hide things from each other. This leaves the other trying to mind-read in order not to get blind-sided when the issue eventually comes to the surface. And I agree with Matilda 100% that we have to make ourselves crystal clear. But, like Fille said, it’s a goal, and cannot be accomplished overnight.

So, how slowlee is slowlee? A month? Two months? Six months? A year? I don’t have the answer to that question except to say that it’s more than 16 months for me (and counting). Yeah, Fille. I know. There’s no magic formula. Just gotta keep trying eh? Slowlee.

Hey. That sounds kinda familiar…

We can even grow beyond these things. I just need you to know that I'm trying. Please share with me, but try not to attack or judge me for these wounds I carry. And I will try my best to do the same for you. Then holiness will be served here, and the relationship can deepen.

Forgive me, if you can, and I vow to try to forgive you.


--From Enchanted Love : The Mystical Power of Intimate Relationships, by Marianne Williamson. © February 2001

In a practical vein… Yes, Fille. I do form my thoughts before she’s done talking. I do not, however form an opinion. I suppose my delay in opinion forming is to counteract my propensity for thinking ahead. Call it a handicap. Try as I might, I cannot silence the voices in my head. Believe me, I do try to, but it is a weakness that I simply cannot overcome. I’ve told her that I think while she’s talking, and I have to concentrate on what she (or anyone else) says very hard to keep it above the “head talk.”

I do not start talking the second she finishes. I suppose that this is what she wants. Instead, I digest what she’s said, and if necessary bring it up again later. Sound like I’m too analytical?

Given that W has told me that I “never” listened to her, I feel that I had to pay particular attention to what she said. I had to figure out what she meant. A lot of times, she wouldn’t clarify herself. She was just too frustrated, and didn’t want to get into a pissing contest. This left me to figure it out on my own.

To wit:

Lately, W has been sleeping very poorly. She wakes up often, worrying about “something.” What does she have to worry about? As far as I know…

  • My attitude,
  • my job security
  • do I blame her for my unhappiness
  • will I try to stop her (particularly via emotional blackmail) from attaining her goals (such as her bike)
So, I ask her what’s wrong. Why can’t she sleep. She doesn’t want to talk about it.
This is what I want to get away from.. The adversarial mindset. I want to move towards one where we can discuss things, ask for clarification, and truly understand “what’s in each other’s head.” Compromize. Negotiate. Relate.

All I can think of to do right now is to be available if she wants to talk, and whenever she does talk, to listen and react calmly but honestly.


Andy
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,234
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,234
Ok, I see some headway here.

First off - Shutting off the voices takes time (OH WHAT DOESN'T ALREADY!!!! [Mad] ). Anyway, it will probably never fully go away but as the pressure lessens and the practice continues you should find it easier.

Next - I can understand your reasoning for forming your thoughts but can you see where you really can't listen if your busy thinking? It's like listening when you're watching tv. We think we are but we aren't.

Here we're kindof forced to "listen" because we're reading posts. But if they get long or we're in a hury we're likely to scan. But even there we can go back if need be. Can you try to incorporate that concept in to real life?

Do you work really hard to make sure things are just so [Roll Eyes] ? I'm kindof laughing because it's an ernest question but I know it doesn't sound like it. I used to try to be so "perfect" but wasn't getting the proper results. Now I just am and seem to have more success. Of course, too lax isn't good either...

So last point you were hitting was close but I think you may be digging too deep. How can she feel as though you are listening to her? What can you do to convey that to her? What would she then do to show that she sees you doing it?

Sleep and lack thereof matters but in the grand scheme of things, I don't think it's the driving factor. I think it's just learning how to speak enough of each other's language instead of expecting the other to learn all of the others. It's really hard to break the dance and ultimately I do think it takes a LOT of give and not as much take on both sides.

Ooops! I've done it again! Blab blab blab...but I do think you guys are doing really well here. And as I said before - I do see great changes in you since you first came here. Time is on your side (yes it is....)

[ April 15, 2002, 10:06 PM: Message edited by: Phoenix ]

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 994
Likes: 1
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 994
Likes: 1
Andy...

The thing about thinking about what she's saying as she's saying it is, to me, a problem in that I try to anticipate too much. I try to anticipate what she's going to say next, to anticipate which pattern of behavior this comment will predicate, or to anticipate how she'd going to attack me. I focus on what I think and not what she's saying. So much for listening.

In a recent therapy session, I finally conceeded that this time I was not going to talk about what I thought, only about what I knew for a fact. The C said "good. That's a good start, because then you are dealing with the facts at hand, and not the worries and concerns you manufacture in your mind." Wow. That hit me. I was just being flip with my comment, not knowing that I'd hit on something big. Facts on their own, not what they are after my mind processes them.

On Oprah 2 weeks ago (don't imagine you see it over there, but you can buy and download the transcripts), Dr. Phil did a show on communication. A comment the really hit for me was when Phil had a woman stand up, face her husband, and tell him from deep down what she needed without criticism, with out negatives, just needs. He implored the man to just look her in the eye and listen. Listen. Don't look around, don't be thinking about the hidden meanings he thinks she has, don't be thinking about what he's going to say back to her. Just listen. Hear her, and hear and feel her pain. I still can't do it that well myself, but I understand the direction and see its wisdom. And, I taped the show and got W to watch it with me. I felt some progress there.

Just my thoughts today...

z

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 617
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 617
Andy,

I relate to this alot. I saw that I did not know how to listen, not just to my husband. It's the most wonderful thing to be able to really Hear someone. Even if what they are saying is painful just to hear. That's what true intimacy is about, being able to share everything, anything that we want to with those we love.

Something which helped me alot was in the book, fighting for your marriage, by howard markham & co. In it, he describes the speaker-listener techinque. It takes alot of practise, but it works. Look into it. It really changed how I was able to communicate.

Also, I agree, that to simply listen, acknowledge & validate your spouse is one of the most powerful things we can do. It's a gift. We all want to be heard, just as we are. No thoughts, no answer, explainations, justifying, defending, no commmentary. Only listening with our hearts.

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,993
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,993
Good morning,Andy!

Tidbit for you re the thyroid. A lot of hypoT post nail problems. One in particular is that we tend to lose those half moons (except on thumbs) on our digits.

Also, I used to be unable to sleep. Don't know if that was thyroid related or perimenopausal.

For the last 1/2 year I sometimes wake about 3a w garbage thoughts. Doc that monitors me for thyroid queries me about my sleep patterns in effort to monitor me for signs of depression.

Calcium and magnesium (and vit D) before bed is good for sleep.

********************************************

Andy, thanks for doing the links to my old threads. I only recently went back to my first entry on this thread and was pleased by what you'd done for me.

********************************************

I'm remembering something I read somewhere in which it says that the spouse remembers everything we say. I can remember how I went from a blabbering wife to one who couldn't think of a thing to say. Then I read somewhere that if your spouse likes to laugh then do/say things that will cause them to smile. H always enjoyed my dry humor so I'm trying to bring that back plus respond in humorous ways to some of the stuff he says.

When you've been married going on 29 years it's hard to go back to the beginning and talk about the stuff you talked about in the beginning. I find us going there and although the visits are short it's good.

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,694
ANS Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,694
WOW! Thanks for all the responses, gang.

I have to say one thing about “the voices.” I wasn’t exaggerating when I questioned whether or not I’m in some way handicapped. When we were kids, who ever heard of ADD? Anyway, rest assured that I’m not making excuses, and I’m doing all I can to quell the voices. BTW, it’s not just a man thing. My daughter is like that too (heredity?)

Fille,

Yes, I am a perfectionist. My first 180 was to stop this – especially wrt communications. I used to interrupt W all the time to insert the “perfect” word or phrase to finish off her idea. But, I did stop doing this. If there’s one thing that I’ve been very conscious of, it’s not to speak until she’s finished. We used to think it was “cute” that we could finish each other’s sentence. We all know that there comes a time that this becomes irritating instead of cute.

I agree with you that we have to learn each other’s language. In my case, it goes beyond mars/venus. Her mother tongue is French, while mine is English. When we met, she had high school level English while I had high school level French. Perhaps it was out of necessity that we started correcting each other. Anyway, in addition to our gender differences, our communications styles are a result of language differences and cultural differences.

quote:
Originally posted by Fille:

So last point you were hitting was close but I think you may be digging too deep. How can she feel as though you are listening to her? What can you do to convey that to her? What would she then do to show that she sees you doing it?

Yes. I think my last point is the biggy. I guess the real issue isn’t whether or not I hear the words, or even understand her POV. The issue is that she feels that she’s had to accede to my wishes for our entire marriage. She doesn’t want to “take turns” though. In other words, it’s not her turn to have her way all the time. One of my initial 180s was to give in to her all the time. I’m still doing that to a degree, and will continue to do it until she stops viewing me as a road block to her desires. I’ve started to voice my objections, but back off rather quickly. She still wants to win me over to her POV, and senses that though I relent, she hasn’t convinced me. In some cases, she’s right, in some cases, she’s wrong.

Guess it’s just a matter of time ‘til she sees that I’m not a doormat or a roadblock.

I disagree with you, though, wrt the importance of fatigue. Sleep is an important part of that, but it’s really fatigue that I’m talking about. I’ve mentioned before that we have 4 kids and our youngest is autistic. This is stressful beyond imagination. Try to imagine waking to screaming fits at 5:30AM seven days a week. Then, after starting your morning like that, packing him off to school knowing that upon his return, he’s quite likely to continue in that vein until 8:30PM.

That’s the worst case scenario, of course, but it happens, and it’s exhausting. W and I have both burned out at some point, and the accumulation of all of this plus the “normal” day-to-day stuff is immense.

Perhaps this is why I’ve never ascribed “alien” behavior to my W. I can not and will not blame her for wanting to jump into the escape pod.

Zebra,

My W watches Oprah a lot. I don’t know if she has been in the last little while, but I don’t think she’s ready to do anything as intense as the exercise you mentioned.

Esperanza,

I have to disagree with you on something. I don’t believe that true intimacy is about sharing everything. There are things that my W told me over a year ago from which I still bear the scars. I think true intimacy is knowing what to say, how to say it, and when to say it. It also entails a mutual trust that what is left unsaid does not damage the R.

Lily,

Thanks for the tips. My W has, in the past, been tested for thyroid. Is it time for a re-test? Perhaps, but you and I have already had that discussion. I cannot bring it up. That’s one of those “private” things for her. However, yesterday, we did discuss vitamins, calcium, etc as sleep aids.

We’re both trying the humour thing. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it hits a nerve, but we’re both regaining the ability to laugh – even at ourselves.

TTFN,
Andy


Andy
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,785
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,785
Andy I understand about the voices and they are an impediment to listening.

When My S was attending the therapeutic boarding school we had to attend grouup sessions both with other parents and with our kids.They could be brutal..too brutal...confronting people on their behaviour was the thing to do(turns out the wrong thing for me and for my M)

I always though of myself as a good listener.One day a guy in the group blew up at me and told me I didn't listen. I was shocked and a few days later I called him.He is a high powered exec type.He told me that sometimes when peole are listening, there are words, felings going on in their heads that impede their ability to TRULY LISTEN.he felt that's what I was doing.

You may be right it may be an ADD thing (Wellbutrin should help that some though)
That's why(here I go again)..people like me(I'm a little ADDish)have to force themselves to actively listen, wipe the mind clear before you start...AND if you do the echoing, parroting or whatever you call it..you HAVE to wipe the mind clear so you can truly hear..I'm rambling again..this is all good stuff..

Duchess

[ April 16, 2002, 08:48 PM: Message edited by: Duchess ]

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,694
ANS Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,694
The voices! The voices! Somebody stop the voices!!!!!

Has anyone seen the film A Beautiful Mind?


Andy
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,234
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,234
I don't think you really understand how severe things have been in my household [Roll Eyes] . I'm really not being glib [Big Grin] . I understand what you're saying about your voices and am telling you what I've seen IGgy do as well as myself and my own voices. Part of it really is not pressuring yourself but consistently working it. And when you fall off the horse every ten seconds keep trying without beating yourself up. It will most likely never be 100% gone but it will be much more live with-able and when things get rougher you can retreat and get back on course. If, in really doing that - say for a good month - you still aren't seeing any results, maybe another trip to the doctor may not be a bad idea. Unless you don't think that's a good idea. Then it goes to working around it and also making sure that the solution works for her as well as you.

As for the rest - I do remember how strenuous your life is right now with the kids and all. Not discounting the lack of rest at all. Just please don't discount my surface approach. When the car knocks & pings, sometimes it's not thousands of $ to repair. And sometimes even when once before it was, the next time it may not be.

The original thing seemed to be how to get her to talk and for you to listen. You are making great progress but your tendancy to dig in and root up everything is full boar again from what I see. It gets really frustrating to try to say something to someone and have them consistently bat everything away without really seeming to understand you in the first place. A response for everything. I used to be really really bad at that (still am sometimes) and it's damn hard to just sit back and say I hear you. I appreciate what you're saying. I agree or disagree but I hear what you're saying. Or just saying nothing at all.

I also find that those of us who do that are most likely to not appreciate it when others do it to us.

So I'm just suggesting it might behoove you to slow down and not work this like a puzzle that must be solved immediately. Chances are, you guys may just be living life to the max until the kids are older. And with the one, you may always have that stress so it's best to keep on the path of learning how to incorporate it into life as it is instead of trying to find a fix that may not be. But I know you know this stuff - it's just getting it to work for the two of you.

I'm wondering what Michele would say here. What do you think she'd say? I have a couple of ideas but wonder what you or someone else would say.

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 617
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 617
Andy,

I may not have been very clear with you. Maybe I can clarify if I'm not on the right track.

I've always wanted to be able to share everything & not hold anything back from my husband. I want a honest, deep & open connection with him where I feel safe to simply Be myself. But that's not my nature, I hold back. It's a self-protective thing, most of us do it. Also, it requires that we do feel safe & have a deep trust in them to be able to open up.

In my case, my husband has been very hurt by this. When I hold things in, he feels as if I'm hiding things, or that I'm not able to share with him so deeply. I understand this & agree with him. But, I've also come to see that sometimes we share things that perhaps it's best left unspoken. Sometimes, we talk to relieve our own guilt or to make ourselves feel better.

Things like that can & often do lead to misunderstanding & hurt feelings. It's a fine line what we really need to share with them & what not to. I didn't mean to imply that we should let it all hang out. I simply thought in your case that your wife wants you to be more open with her. Sharing intimately like that is a challenge then because we are so vulnerable in those moments, but the rewards are extraordinary in bringing a couple closer together. That's what I was getting at.

Page 2 of 4 1 2 3 4

Moderated by  Michele Weiner-Davis 

Link Copied to Clipboard