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Old thread is over 100 posts, so it’s time to start a new one. It’s also time for a fresh approach.

Here’s the background.

About two years ago, there was a massive change in my W’s behavior.

Prior to that (from my perspective sudden) shift, we struggled together to have a “couple’s life” despite raising four children (youngest is autistic). We didn’t have many friends or activities, but we did as much as we could together, and as a family.

For a few months, I was working out of the country. We only saw each other on weekends. W adapted to this. Perhaps this was the trigger for her to decide that she needed to be more independent. She grew strong and independent, and dealt with the family situation so well. I can’t describe the intestinal fortitude she showed. She’s an amazingly strong woman. I’ve always thought so. Guess she believes it now, too.

Anyway, she started doing things for/by herself. This would be great except that when I stopped travelling, it seemed like I was forgotten. The kids felt the same way. Seemed like after years of self-sacrifice, she’d had enough.

But, rather than seeking my support for her new freedom, she felt that I was a barrier to it. She avoided involving me in her new life for fear that I’d interfere. She said that I’ve always had things my way. Now that she found friends/activities that she enjoys, she wouldn’t “give them up” for me. She wouldn’t “Let me do that to her again.”

My travel, workload, and R burned me out. I became clinically depressed. Since she had complained that I never shared my feelings with her, I started to do this. Misery loves company, but company doesn’t love misery. A severely depressed person should not try to become open with their spouse! But a severely depressed person cries out for help. I couldn’t help it.

This situation only served to illustrate my neediness, selfishness, and that I was trying to “do it to her” again.

As I dragged myself out of depression, I came to understand that sharing my feelings was counterproductive. I also came to understand that my past behavior did not reflect the love and care that I had for my W. I also figured out that telling W this was falling on deaf ears. I had to act like the person that I thought I was.

This meant supporting W. Being her friend.

I’m not saying that I did a particularly good job of this over the past two years, but I tried.

What did I try?

The first step was to go gray. As needy as I was, I could not show it. Any expression of need was viewed as blaming her for my depression. The second step was to do things by/for myself to express my own independence while still trying to allow W her freedom by helping more around the house and with the kids. The third step was to try to weasle my way back into her life without appearing controlling or interfering.

Then I tried to reopen communications. That’s when I discovered what a lousy job I did of the first three steps.

W felt that when I went gray, it was just a continuation of my behavior of keeping my feelings to myself. She viewed this – along with my behavior over the past 23 years in terms of a wall that I built between us. I knew that I couldn’t blast the wall down (tried that, remember?), so I started chipping at it with a teaspoon.

So… Where am I now?

W has allowed me into her circle of friends, and includes my friends in the circle. We do things “with the gang”, We occasionally do things alone. We have coffee together each weekday morning. We’ve stopped pointing fingers (at least overtly), and we’ve both expressed a desire to be more open with each other.

The kicker is, that we constantly misinterpret each others words and actions. We’re afraid to talk openly to each other because of this. So, the wall is as tall and as solid as ever.

This morning, I told her that, as far as my privacy is concerned, we can discuss anything. There are topics – particularly anything that I’m ashamed of – that are difficult for me to talk about, but I’m willing to talk about them anyway. At the same time, I respect her right to decide what she considers too personal to talk about.

She’s very tired, and didn’t want to discuss this further, but I’m hoping that we can open up and discuss things to the point where we can understand each other without jumping to conclusions.

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Andy
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Andy,

In reference to "echoing, or empathetic listening"(from your last post on your old thread)

quote:
Originally posted by ANS:

I’ve heard of this technique, but the issue isn’t that she doesn’t think I’m listening. The issue seems to be that I always misinterpret what she says. So she’s given up trying to tell me things.


That's exactly why it can be an effective technique.

If you echo back to her what she said, then how can she say you misinterpreted it?

If she thinks you misinterpret what she says..then in effect she thinks your not listening.

Does that make sense?

Duchess

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Makes sense, Duchess. But...

She knows I hear the words.

However, If I don't make a remark about what she said, she assumes that I'm stewing over it.

If I do make a remark on what she said, she accuses me of black-and-white thinking. Of twisting her words.

If I don't make an immediate remark on what she said, she assumes I'm trying to find a way to twist her words, and even worse, saving up my feelings for a blowout.

Parroting the words may – in some cases – be an effective way of making someone think they’ve been heard, but in my case, it’s her assumptions about what’s going on in my head after I’ve heard the words.

Make sense?

BTW, welcome to my first poster to my new thread. Sorry, no door prizes.

Andy


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quote:
Originally posted by ANS:


Parroting the words may – in some cases – be an effective way of making someone think they’ve been heard, but in my case, it’s her assumptions about what’s going on in my head after I’ve heard the words.


Yikes..this is a tough one..

Duchess

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I guess we’ve both gone dark on each other at some point, and the result is that neither of us completely believes what the other says.

This morning, W accused me of reading too much into what she says. I told her that words are an imperfect means of expressing our feelings, and when I probe her for clarification, I’m not making assumptions. I told her that she’s misinterpreting my responses to what she says, too.

You’d think that after 23 years together, we could make ourselves understood to each other. In fact, the opposite is true. We have so much history together, that assumptions run rampant. I think it’s also true that moods affect what we think at a given moment, and therefore, we give a constant stream of conflicting signals.

It’s perfectly normal for one to make a statement at one moment and state the exact opposite at another time. But which is the “true” expression of one’s feelings?

Which statement is to be believed?

There are two barriers to our understanding of each other.

Firstly, we have too little time to express our feelings. Except for our morning coffee, we’re never alone, and even then we’re interrupted as soon as the kids start waking up. Should we spend our only “couples” time hashing out our feelings? How can that bring us closer together?

The second barrier is fatigue. As happened this morning, we started to hash out our communications problems, but W was too tired to continue. The discussion was left hanging.

I think that the only way we can work on this is to keep as open as we can. That’s what I intend to do. Just hafta keep in mind that a constant stream of OR talks promotes an oppressive atmosphere.

I guess it’s still slowlee, slowlee. In this case, the monkey isn’t me per se. It’s open communications and sharing of feelings with me. I have to make this an attractive option by trying to dispell her assumptions about what I say, and by trying to be clear about my responses. I also have to be as clear as I can when I express my own feelings.

I’ve told her that any topic is open. I don’t think she believes me, but I just have to wait until she does.

Andy


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Hi ANS...*smile*...

..."Just hafta keep in mind that a constant stream of OR talks promotes an oppressive atmosphere."....

You said it, ANS. Don't let words get in the way. How about some time just enjoying silence together? Would that make you uncomfortable?

Maybe you're putting too much importance on this verbal communication thing. Feelings are sometimes best expressed by actions...a look, a smile, a touch...that sort of thing. What do you think?

..."Firstly, we have too little time to express our feelings. .....Should we spend our only “couples” time hashing out our feelings? How can that bring us closer together?"...

You know the answer to that one. Appreciate the time you have together, and enjoy it, ANS. Sit back and relax, and don't worry if W doesn't want to talk. Some people are more reserved than others...some people are quiet a lot of the time, and speak only when they have something to say....I came from an entire family of people like that...*smile*...

Don't know if this helps or not...just a thought...keep smiling....R8

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Thanks, r8.

A *smile* always helps.

I don't want to give the impression that Andy's house is rife with tension. It's not. We certainly can, and do spend quiet time together. Admittedly, there's not enough of this. As I mentioned, 4 kids, and one particularly disruptive handicapped kid don't make for serene surroundings.

My dilemma is that when we do communicate, we both get caught up in what we think the other is thinking. We know each other well enough to have a pretty good idea of each other's patterns of thought.

BUT

Those patterns are changing! We're just having an hard time figuring each other out.

We both have a lot to say. Just can't get the message accross.

Andy


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Yesterday our C had us in session for 21/2 hours. Again she mentioned how she enjoys "working" w us.

She told us to "stop reading each other's minds". She mentioned that active listening and the echoing as well.

She also told us to start 'playing'. We're supposed to start nurturing the injured children that we brought into our M. When I have a quiet time I might post about that on my thread.

Son wants 'puter, C ya!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Andy,

No matter how long you've been together, you'll never really know what's going on in the other person's mind. Hopefully, we all grow and change over the years and as such our thoughts also change. Don't ever take for granted that you know what she's thinking or that she knows what you're thinking. Make it perfectly clear what you're trying to communicate and ask for clarification from her if you have any question whatsoever that you might be misinterpreting her remarks.

I thought I knew my H so well and what knew what he was thinking. Look how wrong I was. Also, when I've tried the parroting experiment with H (as Dutches was explaining), I've found my H meant something entirely different than what I was hearing!! That hasn't changed in all these years. He knows exactly what he means, but doesn't say it in a way that I know exactly what he means, and visa-versa.

And, you're right, too many OR talks are oppressive. Laugh, have fun. I'm sure you do, but sometimes from your posts it sounds like you're looking for every opportunity to "tune into" your wife. Sometimes you gotta just relax and not worry so much. If you think you've said the wrong thing, grab her, kiss her, grab her rear end and say, "You know that's not what I meant," or whatever. Don't take EVERYTHING so seriously. [Big Grin]

And remember what I said in my reply on my thread, You're the lucky one. You have a wonderful chance at the greatest R in the world. Slowly, Slowly.

Love,

Matilda

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Hi Andy - you know I've mentioned a time or two that you remind me of my H sometimes. And this subject is one of those times.

It's frustrating isn't it? Do you form your thoughts before she's done talking? Do you start talking the second she's finished her last word? Do you start going off on a subject until she just throws her hands up?

I just wonder because those are some of the things IGgy does still. What seems to work for him (for me) is if he acnowledges what I've said. That's really about it. Just that he acnowledges it. Even if it's just - I heard what you said. I don't understand it -or- I don't know how to respond -or- this is my opinion, would you listen?

That way you aren't trying to think 3 steps ahead and she doesn't feel like she could be reciting the phone listings to you for the same response.

Also, I know that IGgy tends to over think/work/do things and messes himself up. Then he gets mad outwardly for his own stuff. Sound like something that makes sense?

Hope that helps. Also, I gave IGgy a copy of that quote you posted on my thread. He really really liked it so thank you again. You take care and SLOW DOWN!!!!

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