So as not to hijack Lord's thread, and mine is locked anyway.
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Not to push too hard, because I know you are going through a lot of emotions and have been working hard, but really look into your heart and soul and figure out what YOU want. Would you have put up with a sexless and affectionless marriage much longer even without the cheating and lying? IF the marriage was "good" or at least something you felt committed to, would you fight for your wife despite the cheating and lying? There aren't any right or wrong answers I am looking for but rather the soul searching stuff to make sure YOU are in a good state of mind and feel assured of what your goal in all of this is.
Fearless, I ask myself that every day. What is it that I'm fighting for? Why am I working so hard, enduring so much pain, for a marriage that was -- for most of its 22 years -- very pain-ful?
I still don't think I have the answer, 35 days into this thing. I think it's some mixture of comfort/familiarity, fighting for my kids (esp my boys), and -- frankly -- not wanting to see her WIN in all of this. And, it's a challenge, to see if we can get back to that place we had early in our marriage. I dunno. The problem I've continued to have is, this is NOT just about the affair. I was very unhappy for many, many years before this punk ever came along, and it's now also clear that my wife fell out of love with me several years ago.
At this point, I'm really just fighting to bust up the affair, and to lead her back to a place where her heart is right with God and she's happy moving forward in her life. If that is with me -- great -- I'd love to try. If it's not, well at least I will feel like I did my job.
Choc. _________________________ "Still at the end of every hard-earned day, people find some reason to believe."
Well, it looks like the lost Mrs. Choc. has set up an appointment with a family law attorney. July 13th; it's on her calendar (conveniently left open on the kitchen counter -- for me to see??).
You are handling this very admirably Choc (not that it makes you feel any better about your M falling apart)
She might get herself a real dose of reality when she talks to them. If they are not aware of the REAL situation and what has caused this M to possibly breakup, they might not give her sound advice. However, your attorney will be well aware of her infidelity and if she is adamant about pushing forward with a D, there might be some back pedalling when she finds out she might not get a penny because of it - you will be solely responsible for the kids and nothing more.
And the saga continues (but we are all here, cheering you on)
Take care
Heywyre
M - 57 H - 65 1st A-bomb - Nov 27/02 2nd A-bomb - Dec 13/06 together 21 years *************************** Insanity is doing something over and over and expecting different results (Albert Einstein)
I appreciate the encouragement, but unfortunately, in Florida, infidelity will have little or no role to play in the alimony considerations. As a "long-term" marriage, mine will be subject to as much as PERMANENT alimony (unless my wife agrees to less), and her infidelity will only come into play in the CUSTODY portion of this.
I do think she's in for three big, "rude-awakening" surprises, tho:
1. We are in much worse financial shape than she thinks, and she's not going to get much.
2. I will fight her for the custody of our boys.
3. The e-mail I sent her about "Finances" -- whereby I firewalled my paycheck from her and stated that I would ONLY pay for her needs and the needs of the boys, and no longer for tummy tucks, cellphones used to carry on affairs, add'l plastic surgery procedures, and her clothes shopping -- is on solid legal ground (or so an attorney told me).
I think she's looking for "temporary alimony" (she has taken many notes on this topic) pending a divorce, and then a healthy alimony, and child custody, thereafter.
I think she will get ONE of those things (healthy alimony), and not a second (temporary alimony), and will have the fight of her life on the third (custody of S14 and S10).
the lost Mrs. Choc. has set up an appointment with a family law attorney. July 13th; it's on her calendar (conveniently left open on the kitchen counter -- for me to see??). That open message is a tough one. It also tells me she doesn't have the where-with-all to be up front with you, so expect her hiding more things from you, but giving hints.
At this point, I'm really just fighting to bust up the affair, and to lead her back to a place where her heart is right with God and she's happy moving forward in her life. If that is with me -- great -- I'd love to try. If it's not, well at least I will feel like I did my job. Chocolateeyes, I can relate to those thoughts and related feelings.
I am not encouraging you to stay or go, but your situation reminds me of the recent, new TV program.
In previous episodes, an XW loaded her XH trophy car in a cargo plane and pushed the car out the cargo door ramp at an altitude of several thousand feet, to the desert floor below.
In another episode a guy dropped his soon to be XW, boy friend’s truck repeatedly from a tall crane and I thought of Mrs. Choc’s trainer’s truck.
Figures some TV station mogul would think of making money off of other people's misery huh?
But I have to say, it probably makes for good watching
Heywyre
M - 57 H - 65 1st A-bomb - Nov 27/02 2nd A-bomb - Dec 13/06 together 21 years *************************** Insanity is doing something over and over and expecting different results (Albert Einstein)
But I have to say, it probably makes for good watching HW there is a whole bunch of healing shown on the program.
People start out sad, angry and by the end of the program, the therapy, the activities, an arranged date, the main subject is much improved.
I don't get dropping an X's car/truck from heights or blowing up and setting some things from the X on fire. I never had that much money to literally waste when I was younger and still think, don't waste resources. The rest of the program has a lot of healing/ recovery power.
They try to talk to the X's but don't have much luck. I would like to hear the X's story because I think they are not 100% at fault.
One guy didn't go to the dentist for many years (8?) so his W wouldn't kiss him. She is the one that had a boyfriend.
I dropped in out of curiosity to see how things are going for you. Sorry to see it has escalated into a power struggle, but IMO that is the only possible outcome when dealing with someone who is in denial, who is an avoider, who has significant intimacy and self esteem issues. I still see no evidence (unless I missed something in skimming the posts) that she plans to hook up with this guy. Sure she might be thinking of something like this as an escape, but the meeting with her lawyer will bring that into focus.
BTW, her meeting with the lawyer is VERY necessary for you and her. Until a person knows exactly where the line is, it is too easy to fantasize about what divorce could be like. She can convince herself that she will get X amount of alimony, be able to maintain some level of lifestyle, all until the lawyer tells her otherwise. Likewise, you will probably have a rude awakening in your chances of getting primary guardianship over your kids. Whether you resolve to fight like h*ll or not, the courts will do what the courts will do, and your W does not seem so demented or unstable for a court to deny her primary guardianship. The 14 year old should be able to say who he wants to live with and the court will consider that.
I think your W is in a struggle to find herself and your actions may feel to her like you are trying to put her back under your thumb. So contrary to her being stubborn, I think you should look at her actions as pure survival, trying to avoid drowning in her old life as a SAHM. Anyone fighting for survival will appear to be surprisingly “stubborn.” So maybe looking at the situation through those filters is not serving your best interests, ya think? It hasn’t produced results so far.
I understand the difficulty in dealing with people like her. It is hard to engage and negotiate with someone who only knows to run. The thing to remember is that her running is really meant for you to chase her. But you’ve been chasing all your marriage and it has gotten you no where. I don’t think the problem is in your chasing, but in the type of “chase” you have made in the past. Now that you have changed your MO, she is confused. It will take a long time to turn this whole dynamic around. A month is nowhere long enough. Better plan on a couple of years.
You needed to switch to a more confrontational approach. But IMO, that approach will yield quicker results works with a spouse who want to engage in the M and avoid the worse situation of D. So it is better to negotiate than fight, if the marriage is the primary goal for the spouse. For your W, there is nothing that will trigger her fears and defenses more than confrontation. The marriage is not her primary goal. Gaining her self esteem and sense of independence and therefore her security is her main goal, IMO. So your actions to have her re-engage in the M are actually threatening to her goal. Yet at the same time, she needs to know where the line is and what you stand for, just as she needs to know what the courts will do.
IMO you can push this thing to irreversibly heading to D within a matter of months, if not weeks. I think it could be that close to the edge. OTOH, some show of understanding and compassion could go a long way to postponing D. Once she hears the hard facts from the lawyer, she may be open to hearing a more compassionate Choc as a way out of this nightmare. As stressed and panicked as you are, she is probably feeling 10 times more so.
You both need to get into long term counseling. She agreed to this. IMO, it is the ONLY hope for you to save your marriage. Both you and she need to reprogram your emotional reactions to each other, how you each perceive threats, how you perceive acts of service and how you react to caring and intimacy. I think the latter will be the hardest thing to change. You both want to be loved, but when you get it, will you be able to handle it? Will she be able to handle it?
Remember, she wants to be chased but she will run when you chase her. You need to be persistent, to the point that it finally dawns on her that your continued chasing, after she continually pushes you away, must mean that you really do care. By chasing, I mean having those heart-to-heart talks that bring to light each other’s fears and creates and new sense of understanding between you two. If she doesn’t want to talk, talk anyway. The current state of silence will breed the worst of stinkin’ thinkin’. She will interpret everything it the worst light, and she seems to be doing just that.
Yes, you need to protect yourself, but those actions can also send another unintended message, that you are escalating the war. Her only recourse is to respond in kind. She is incapable of approaching you to open communication, negotiate and work things out. All she knows to do is run. All this seems obvious to us here, but not to her.
The change needed in her perception is what will take lots of time to work through. Like I said, plan on a couple of years. You are approaching the fork in the road. Make your decision carefully. Reevaluate your methods to see what has worked and what has not. Try to put yourself into her shoes. You don’t have to always be confrontational and assertive to be the alpha male. Know when to back down.
Thanks for taking the time to check in, and for your thoughtful post. I only have a moment, as I have to wake S10 and S14 up to get S10 to his baseball tournament, but I did want to say this:
I do agree that we need counselling. GOOD, pro-marriage, meet-each-other's-emotional-needs counselling, and I also agree that I need to help her see that she can find her newfound independence WITHIN our marriage, intead of inappropriately OUTSIDE of it thru an affair.
But make no mistake, I will not go to MC, nor is it even possible for it to be productive, until she ends the affair. She knows this, and she has no intention of ending her "daily fix" of OM (she actually used these words in a text message to him yesterday, lest I had ANY doubts that this was an addiction).
She has no desire to face her own chit. She's always been this way. She has postponed even going to see her OWN counselor, which I also knew she would never go. She has issues, she KNOWS she has issues, and the issues are not her marriage -- her issues are HER. She's RUNNING from that, and RESISTING that, but deep down, she knows it's true.
The affair will run its course. Could take a week, or it could take 3 months, but it won't last, they never do. The issue will be whether my wife can learn to bravely face her own intimacy and entitlement issues -- both of which are HUGE -- and get help to guide her in building a happier future. Whether that's with me and with her family intact will be entirely up to her, and I cannot control that, but she needs to deal with these very real issues in her life regardless.
As for me, I'm working on mine.
Gotta run -- more point-by-point thoughts later, man. Thanks for checking in with me.
Well, it took 40 days after my confrontation of her affair, but she finally tried to goad me into a fight, and the chit hit the fan last nite.
She was starting to lose it all evening. Barely said a word during dinner. Scowl on her face. What finally seemed to set her off was that I said -- in front of the boys, whie we were eating dinner -- "now that baseball is over, I'd like for us to start going to church together again as a family." (we haven't gone, other than christmas and Easter and First Communions and stuff, in a long time, I'm ashamed to say). She slammed the dishes around while helping me clean up, then stormed off to the bedroom, where I went to go brush my teeth.
"We need to talk," she said.
"OK."
"What are we doing?"
"I don't know, what are YOUR intentions?"
(seemed to throw her for a loop)
(Stammers) "What happened to that talk we had last week? About you maybe staying with my parents?"
"I don't want to do that-- I'm not leaving my own house."
"OK, fine. Were you going to tell me that?"
"That would require you actually TALKING to me, which you haven't done all week. In fact, you've barely LOOKED at me.
"What are you TALKING about??!"
"You haven't. You've been emotionally checked out, and you haven't had your wedding rings on in two weeks. Why don't you tell me what you would like to do?"
(still stammering) "W-well, I don't know, but we need to do something. I can't live like this."
"Well, what would you like to do?"
She then started yelling at me, so I said "If you're going to yell and be disrespectful, then I'm leaving," and I walked out.
she followed me out of the bedroom, and demanded we go out back to talk. S he had already shut me down COLD when I tried to bring up the affair, so I said "If I walk out that door with you, EVERY SUBJECT is on the table."
"No, I won't talk about that."
"Then there's nothing to talk about."
"Come out here -- NOW!" *(this is all in front of the boys) :o(
After refusing for awhile, I finally went out back with her, and she said "I'm not talking about THAT. THAT has nothing to do with THIS!"
"Oh you don't think the fact that you're having an affair, in front of your entire family, has something to do with whether or not the family is going to stay together?!"
"I'm not TALKING about that!" (getting hysterical now) "I'm talking about US! You know I haven't been happy in this marriage, for a very, very long time!"
"No, I don't know that, because you never told me that. And it doesn't give you the right to have an affair, that's damaging and it's disrespectful."
(screaming) "I can't live like this! There's nothing left! If this is the way it's going to be, then I'm just going to have to make an appointment with a lawyer!"
"You already did that."
"What???"
"You already did that. When were you going to tell me about that?"
(she stormed off, slamming the door)
After about 3 minutes, she STORMED back out, saying "How long are YOU going to bug our phones??!'
(me, laughing) "What?"
(screaming) "DON'T LAUGH AT ME!!!"
"Getting a little paranoid, aren't we? I haven't bugged our phones."
"Then how do you know I have an appointment with a lawyer?"
"Because I know a whole lot more about everything, something that you've never seemed to realize. I'm not an idiot, Susan."
(she storms off again)
She may have just left, I'm not sure. I saw her grab her purse and tell the boys something. She's been a ticking time bomb all week, and this was bound to happen. I handled it OK, not as calm and as detached as I would have liked, but I'll give myself a solid "B", and her an "F+".
Oh, one more thing I missed, that she said in the bathroom: "What's with the 'going to church' thing?" I said, "That's something you've always wanted us to do more of. I thought you'd like that." She said, "Well, were you going to talk to ME about it first?"
"Why would I talk to you about going to church?"
"What are you trying to do????!'
"I'm trying to be a good dad, and a good husband, and offer you a good marriage."
(threw her completely for a loop, and she changed the subject to something else)
She did come home after being gone only about an hour, laid on the couch, TV off, with her hand over her eyes, pinching her eye sockets the way that one does when one has a really bad sinus headache. We didn't speak for the rest of the evening, and she slept upstairs on the game room couch.
