Quote: It seems that this conversation is stemming from the perception that we have no choice about or control over our feelings in the first place.
Huh? Not sure where you got that perception, but it is not at all something I believe, nor was suggesting above. I was talking about growing closer together, and find a way to talk about one's fears & feelings and looking for solutions together.
I wonder if I am guilty of reflecting my own experiences on other people again! If NG is unaware of the anxiety Slowly is feeling then yes, it is only fair to tell him. If (as in my case) Slowly’s H is aware of her insecurities and chooses to ignore them and hope they go away then there really is (IMO) little point in trying to get him to understand how she is feeling about his screen swapping. You see, I have sat down with my H and explained that sometimes I get insecure and wonder what he is doing and his response to this is that there is nothing to worry about. This is enough of an explanation for him but not for me. I like to get everything out in the open talk about it before I can forget it- he isn’t like that.
My thoughts are from reading this thread that he is aware that she feels insecure and that she needs more information about OW but chooses not to tell her. My H is very much like that. My H does not do this out of malice this is just how he likes to deal with things. He is very much a bury your head in the sand kind of guy.
For me it comes down to not being able to get from my H the openness and honesty I crave. In order to feel happy and secure I need more than he feels safe giving. One of us is going to have to compromise our needs. In the past that has always been me, as a result I am full of resentment towards H - even now.
It’s a difficult situation, but an interesting discussion. I am curious to know if Slowly has mentioned this to her H before only to have it fall on deaf ears or whether he is totally oblivious to her feelings.
I't been a while since I've posted and read threads, but the current discussion on yours is wonderful. Nice thoughts from all, esp. H2H and Betsey.
Personally, I can testify to the authentic, respectful communication--it's basically the breakthrough H and I have had in the last 2 weeks. All of what I will relate is MY story/opinions, not what I think is the right thing for everyone.
I too was concerned that we went through our day to day, and did not address the big topic that was US. I realize that we both needed space to let the dust settle so that we (mostly I) could speak calmly about things and get balanced. Part of the not talking phase was also me taking time for some PMA, detachment and finally understanding that there are things in life I cannot control, and I can choose to let it go and have faith that it will work itself out, but keep the focus on me. That helped me to stay calm and thoughtful when the conversations DID begin (much to my total SHOCK).
One day, H, who avoided R talk like the plague, came out and talked for hours, gently prompted (very UN-DB) by me. It was unavoidable; we could not pretend. I agree that we are in control of our emotions, but we also love ourselves and the other person enough to show integrity for our Rs, to not live swallowing things down, averting our attention to the bigger topics. I think where we get tripped in our own personal change (OK, speaking for myself here) is that there is a fine difference in talking about the past: talk about the past to look at it together, to learn, be respectful, understand each others feelings/anger, THEN, PUT IT BEHIND YOU. Move from it. This is something that I did not do before but have learned to do. Perhaps because for the first time, we are communicating honestly, authentically (as was the term here).
I listened calmly as H talked for hours. What he said was harsh, cold, aloof. I was calm, agreed, b/c deep down, I felt those things too. We related. He was not judged. I was not afraid to tell him that I had hope for us, while he saw little, for fear of chasing him away. Later, he finally admitted guilt and apologized (big SHOCK). I then let go of my fear and told him how angry I was at so many things. I did not fear that it might push him away, it was something that I needed to get out and over, in a controlled fashion. I firmly believe that if you truly press the restart button, you air it all out, BUT in a different way than before. I'll admit I wasn't respectful, calm or dignified in my marital communication in our earlier R.
Before, I overexpressed my emotions and H withdrew, underexpressing. Then in the limbo period, I just avoided all conflict for H's sake, pushed a lot aside and down, then we went into non-communication....also not good. Now, we're at really honest, open, respectful communication. Authentic.
It was SO cathartic, for both of us. We told each other how we felt at times, how angry we were, the brutal and hurtful things we thought of each other. What a mess we made of our M, how careless we were, how sad, and proud we were to be able to talk like this, to lay down our pride and say we screwed up. To honestly ask if we could do this, if it was meant to be. If we were better of without each other. These were things H was too afraid to ask aloud for fear of my reaction. He mentioned that the best thing was to talk to me without my anger, panic, stress. This is like the "box" analogy made in an earlier post on this thread....I tried hard to be respectful of his box, his voice. It hurt, I had heart leaps, but I looked at what he showed me. He looked at what I showed him. He said that he saw a new confidence in me, in taking care of me and voicing what I wanted in a respectful way. In having integrity for our M to want more or to leave it. I had the same for him.
It's not perfect, and as Betsey says, as long as it's respectful (we are now in teh solution oriented phase, before just venting, which is a necessary first step) and constructive to push you to the next level, it works, I think. I went out of line and pushed H, pressured in even subtle ways, and I saw the difference, he withdrew immediately and I saw that I lost priviledges to the box. That was sad. He opened again and I try not to go back. I am grateful that he trusts me to open the box with me. It's not easy and takes a lot of faith no his part and I respect that. We now see the subtle things in each other and understand them--I now understand the LITTLE ways I pressure H or make him feel bad.
So, is it right to open the lines now? You know, it only worked for me because, hard as it was, I waited (not always successfully) for the BIG talk. H had to be ready. He had to put down his anger, pick what he wanted to say, it takes 2 to talk and 2 to be ready.
I agree that it's the discomfort that leads to the next level. For us, it was opening a door to ALL possibilities, ones that I was too scared to face deep down, no matter how much I detached. To look at all the things we did. To allow each other to have days where we felt shame, guilt, sadness, and it was OK. We pulled each other out and who knows where it will go, but at least I don't feel like it's a stranger driving the ship with me. When you open the door, you grow outside of the box you created in the M. Feeling like I could not express feelings, questions, think aloud with a friend or even approach the M talk made me feel angry and frustrated. I know I could stop allowing myself to feel this way, but the fact was, it's not the way I wanted to live. THAT was taking control of my life, standing up for it. Honestly, after we opened the lines, I feel so much more able to think about the past and leave it there, to understand H when he really frustrates me, still. To accept things in him that I would not tolerate before, to finally BELIEVE that he loves me and tries in his own way.
I agree with a previous comment that it's not easy to admit what you're so ashamed of, what you did to hurt someone. But, if you do open, and the other person is compassionate, loving and respectful, but still tells their emotions, it's a release of his guilt...you finally faced what you feared most, the guilt and pain. It's also an intense bond to trust someone enough to share....to say some truly horrible feelings from the past and to still have them standing and tell you that they love you.
I still have no idea where the M will go, but I would not trade the open communication for the world. I try to care for it the best I can. And, in that way, we're caring for each other the best we can.
Sorry if I rambled, or hijacked--I'm certainly not as eloquent as many of you!!! :-) Just wanted to jump back on the BB and share in a relevant conversation.
This is an incredible conversation, and it has given me a lot to think about. I'm not ready to move to Piecing yet, but reading about your experiences will help me when it's time to make the move.
Quote: What I understand from Betsey's post is that there comes a time when we have to communicate our feelings and fears, without blame or judgment, and then step back and allow the other person to choose whether or not they are interested in solving it together, or not.
I think this comment describes the step that we all take when we move forward on our individual paths as well as the path of our R's particularly well. When we stay in the "bubble" described in a thread above, we are actually incubating the same problems that got us here in the first place. Moving to Piecing must be thrilling and terrifying at the same time. It means really putting comfort zones aside to charter new territory. It also means staying patient while your S catches up with you in terms of learning how to communicate, etc.
Hi there Slowly....though we've had very beneficial discussions on your thread, I'm wondering how you're doing...haven't posted since 2/14. How did things go?
