Looking backward...but only to move forward FOUR

[sage]

And LAST but NOT LEAST!!!!

My 21st thread!!!!

Wow…I think I need to read this everyday:

The last few days have been an eye opener for me (couldn't someone just slip me a note or send me an email with these messages instead of bonking me over the head with them?)...informing me that I am NOT the only one in my M who yearns to heal, who is afraid of loss, who wonders if the other truly loves or chooses "me", who needs to hear "you are doing a good job", who regrets the mistakes and wonders how to forgive "myself", who pushes away in order to reach out sometimes, who feels spent, who seeks pain relief, who is confused, who wants but fears the wanting.

We both want to be loved and to love and we worry about our ability to do that.

Areas to focus on:

Some thoughts from our fight...use these to help refine goals/areas to focus...

1. h believes that I will never trust him again ("I KNOW you. You will NEVER trust me again")

2. h believes that I have forgiven him but that I haven't forgotten and that the A is in the forefront of my mind

3. h says that he doesn't think he will ever forgive himself

4. h says that my desire to talk about the A is counter to his desire NOT to talk about it. He said that I ASSume that I will gain more HEALING than he will "lose" in the discussion.

5. h wanted to hear the reasons why I still wanted to be M to him...this actually seemed like a very big part of the conversation

6. h said he thinks I've defaulted to the "devil" I "know" (doesn't feel CHOSEN)

7. h said that he couldn’t imagine us ever apart -- that I am part of his DNA

8. H asked to hear praise for how hard he's been working -- to hear appreciation for the good stuff that he's been doing for our M (WOA?? My h? )

9. h was definitely struggling with physical pain and his actions were definitely clouded by that

10. h doesn't want to "pay" for this for the rest of his life

11. Part of "trust" to h means not only that I believe in his fidelity but also that I "trust" him as he is ("unconditional love")

12. h said that his fear was that he'd go merrily along only to hit "landmines" because of something he said or did that triggered the A in my mind. It seems like the unpredictability is a BIG factor for him (would it help to be more clear with him about what my triggers are?). He used the word "LANDMINE" quite a bit

A concise summary:

I feel like the key for me has gotta be: appreciate what I have, articulate to h my appreciation (in a variety of formats) and learn how to express AND hear issues and concerns before they become huge screaming arguments OR slow festering sores.

A great question from H2H:

I have a question for both you & Jennifer - Have you figured out WHY you still want to talk about the A.?

Both of you have come here, done the work, walked the talk, etc. You both know that the A. was NOT the problem, but a symptom. You both have found (ok, 'sweated') your way back to a committed R.

What will talking about the A. bring (or give) you and the relationship that is missing in the current new R.?

I'm not sure I am articulating this well. I guess I'm asking what's left to say about it, at this point? You've both had conversations about it, both H's feel bad about it, both H's seem to be doing their best to make things better, and I am beginning to understand their POV, that actions speak louder than words, and they are acting lovingly and committed.

Could your questions about the A. be asked in another way? Instead, what led you to the A., or what was being fulfilled, etc. - How about framing questions in the present and future, such as, What gives you the most sense of fulfillment? What do you want from me the most? I'm having trouble coming up those good questions, but I think you understand the point. Rather than digging through the past, how about asking something inspiring about the present & future?

Warning: I ask this of Sage & Jennifer because they've been through a lot of the stuff already. I wouldn't be asking the same question of someone much earlier in the process.

My answer:
H2H -- You've asked an interesting series of questions...and I spent much of last night and this AM thinking about my answer. I think it would be best served by sort of a brainstorming/journalling approach followed up with some analysis on my part...not sure how far I'll get on this today but let's get started

If I had to sum it up I would say that I want to hear from my h that he "GETS IT", where "it" actually encompasses a great deal. I want to hear that he's thought about what he was feeling prior to the pivot point of embarking upon the A (and I recognize that perhaps that reflects a logic and reasonableness that doesn't exist at that time) SO I also want to hear what he understands about himself and his feelings around the time that he was lying to my face about his involvement with OW.

IOW, I'd LOVE to have him say "moments before I crossed the line I felt X, Y and Z" but recognizing that that may not be possible I'd like to hear "In the 6 months OF the EA, I felt X, Y and Z during the conversations where you brought up your fears and I lied to you".

I'd like to hear that he understands it was a slippery slope (given that OW was a "friend" before EA) and that he thinks he could recognize the warning signs.

I'd like to hear that he understands now how he was feeling either about his life in general or our M or a combination and that he now knows he could choose other forms of "pain relief" and/or other ways of articulating his worries/pain/despair to me.

I guess my point is this...I'd like to know from my h that if he finds himself in a situation where he FEELS a particular way that he realizes there are other ways to react. And also that he realizes that his FEELINGS don't necessarily represent the absolute truth of a situation and may need to be investigated further.

For example...let's suppose that h feels some disatisfaction in certain areas of our M, and that he also feels some disatisfaction in certain areas of his life in general and he feels say, ANGER or FEAR or WORRY or WHATEVER....and he finds that he feels better when he's with OW so he focuses on that...and he starts to compare OW with me and becomes convinced that I am one way, unchangeable, and that we must be doomed.

OR, does he GET that yah, I bring something to the table and so does he and that our M, his life is gonna take on a particular tone when looked at through the glamour/excitement of OW and the A and that perhaps bringing HOME some of that enthusiasm and sharing might have helped US?

There are times when I think that my h is still very much "either/or" -- or "black/white" about our M - that he clings to some of the beliefs/myths that Michele lays out -- that if he doesn't feel LOVE then we're doomed, that conflict = disaster, that if it feels like work sometimes then it must not be true love, etc.

As I'm writing this, though, I'm reminded that with the exception of the A, my h's approach to life, problem solving, our M while totally different than mine, is perfectly valid and oftentimes MUCH more workable/productive/etc than mine and that once I GET that and embrace it we're fine.

Am I making any sense? I want to hear that h has held up what happened and thought about "how did I get there? how did we get there? and how can we be sure it never happens again?"

And...I know it hurts like hell to take a close look at the times when you've screwed up and hurt other people and made crappy choices and reacted out of fear -- I know this because I've spent A LOT of the last two years poking at my own behavior and wounds and sometimes it just sucks...but I honestly believe it minimizes the chances of my behaving those ways again...and I'd selfishly (!!!!!) like to hear that my h gets that too.

I KNOW this is selfish and focusing on HIM and unforgiving in some ways and maybe even a bit unfair...

You asked if there were other ways to frame the question/conversation ...I guess I'd say that I want some confidence that we can navigate difficult situations in our M, that we can articulate issues/pain/worries/fears without involving other people or feeling like D is the answer. And maybe I have that already...or I'm on my way there and it's enough to just focus on that. No doubt.

Notes from “The Zen of listening” (a GREAT book):

The basic premise is that meditation and mindfulness can enhance your listening skills and transform relationships. My "listening" is an area that I've worked on over the last few years but continues to be an "area of growth" as I like to think of it.

Here are some thoughts from the book

1. "If every time we met with someone and gave them our full and complete attention for four minutes come hell or high water, it could change our lives" -- Leonard and Natalie Zunin "The first four minutes"

I'm trying to apply this simple concept -- one thing I've noticed about myself is that when people approach me to chat I often put up a wall or defense -- mostly around "I only have X minutes" -- what I'm realizing is that letting people get their "intention" out really sets a positive stage for the conversation and if I have to defer it, they are more likely to be accepting of that because they already feel "heard"

2. (I found through the book that I am a "sometimes" listener) "Chances are your ability to concentrate may be at fault and/or you are a highly critical individual and quick to judge whether a listening opportunity is worthwhile. However, there have been times when you have experienced the satisfaction of being fully absorbed in what someone has to say. Imagine how successful and effective you could be if you would let yourself experience that sense of total absorption in every listening opportunity: (page 33)

3. "we find it difficult to separate observation of a situation, person or thing from an evaluation....our tendencies to observe and JUDGE at the same time can be called 'life-alienating communication'" (page 50)

4. "Some of us are uncomfortable with the idea of putting aside our egos to really listen and experience another's perspective. it may make us vulnerable to step out of the role we have learned to play...or perhaps we fear losing out objectivity." (page 55)

5. The author recommends approaching conversations as you would watch a movie...forgetting yourself for a while and immersing yourself in the "story". "Applying the movie mindset when listening opportunities arise teaches us to be sensitive to the speaker's needs and feelings." (page 87) "By forgetting about yourself for a few minutes, you glimpse how your speaker feels about his situation." (page 88)

6. "the speaker's views may shock, embarrass, aggravate or hurt you buy you have been truthful with your self in accepting the existence of another's reality. As a mindful listener, you strive to relate to the needs - positive or negative -- of the speaker." (page 88)

7. "..when you encounter a situation in which you need to listen well, ask yourself, 'what's his movie? What's her reality? How does he see things right now?' This gives you a window into that person's world and a chance to give your own agenda a rest....Our powerful self-interests set limits on what we permit ourselves to experience. Why not turn those self interests into an interested self?" (page 89-90)

8. "silence is one of the most powerful response modes, but -- regrettably -- the least practiced. (It is important to note here the distinction between attentive silence and silence born of anger, boredom or lack of interest...This kind of silence can be destructive to any relationship.) If you can remain silent, keeping eye contact with the person who has just spoken, you hold the key to the treasury of information to come." (page 129) -- I cannot reinforce this statement strongly enough! Learning how to slow down and be quiet really, really has allowed me to "hear" other people because I'm finally letting them get a word in edgewise!!!

9. "Negative self-talk, mentioned earlier as a major barrier to listening, is an internal source of anxiety. It creates an inner noise that foils our attempts to listen effectively. We overreact to these thoughts, real or imagined, cause our blood pressure to rise and our normal bodily functions -- breathing, digesting and speaking -- to become dysfunctional. Negative self-talk subverts the mind-body balance needed to think clearly and act effectively, particularly in stressful encounters." (pp 184-5)

Not always a straight road:

So...have to admit that the Selfish Sage persona visited last night NOT to the point of crazymaking or even making a blip issue...but just feeling a bit bummed. I know, know, know that it was because I was full of expectation about how h "should" act or what he "should" do.

Selfish Sage came home from work and was thinking about how fun it would be to go to a movie before the Sox game was on or maybe even get a bit, well, ahem, you know H seemed semi-sleepy when I arrived -- my greeting from him was awesome as always...he was watching the yankees game, said he was looking forward to a quiet evening at home, etc. suggested that we pull out the sofa to form a bed and hang out and watch TV.

So...Selfish Sage who has this awesome, loving guy who wants to hang out with her and snuggle and watch the Sox was just kind of whiny inside...felt disappointed...was hoping that h would have been eager to DO something together (either going out or staying in )-- ugh, I annoy even myself.

Did OK acting "as if" I think and hung out on the couch beating myself up inside for feeling like I "wanted to be wanted" (and wasn't).

The worst part is that I KNOW h has been feeling tired, feeling stressed out, feeling like he might be fighting off a cold and I still "wanted to be wanted".

What was this need in me for some "grand gesture" that I was WANTED by him? Is it as simple as LLs? I've been focused on his and at least one of mine has been on the backburner? Or what? I have to admit that at one point I was thinking "he THINKS he wants to hang out at home and watch TV but at somepoint he'll look back on these years and think 'why wasn't I out partying with some hot babe having an awesome time and '" -- which is totally stupid because I KNOW h relishes peace, quiet, comfort and nights hanging out with me at home.

Feeling like a doofus!

How'd I do with his LLs?

WOA: Not sure...praised his school stuff...nothing house or errand related

AOS: Cleaned up the kitchen a bit, did litter boxes and vacuumed the room this AM

QT: Yah, definitely have THAT one covered

PI -- snuggling and coziness

But I feel like a jerk because i was internally stomping around acting like a big baby.

Ideas around AOS:

Seen you've been struggling w/AOS LL and wanted to point out some possibilities....although the ones you did the other day were large (in my opinion - housework, UGH) what about some smaller ones like picking up clothes from the cleaners, or stopping off to get something special for dinner before the game, or making him his favorite drink - coffee, mixed, etc..., or even getting the paper for him in the morning. I'm not an AOS person but from what I recall in the book, they don't have to be HUGE, just consistent and if you think of other things that your H does and you could do regularly for him, they would become more natural and consistent. I mean, you don't have to feed all of the LL but if that's at the top then I would focus a bit more. As for a HUGE one, is there something he has always wanted done (ie, clean the garage/attic/basement to make way for a "room of his own" or that he always wanted the car detailed)...whatever the case, maybe there's something you need to ponder and see if you can pull it off.

Focusing on h’s LL:

I guess I'd say the following about each of them

1. QT -- the hardest part for me is knowing what h considers "QT" -- I know that hiking, exercising together, movies, dinner, walking, going to ball games all COUNT. I know that he also likes quiet times at home -- cooking together (sort of a new one!), watching TV..TBH, though, I can only watch SO MUCH TV (I think that h has a much higher tolerance for it than I do) so I'd like to be reading while we're together -- I'm sure it sounds absurd but I don't know if that "counts" to him as QT...ok, maybe I do...I've asked and he says he loves it when I read on the couch with him...

2. AOS -- as you've seen...this is the one I struggle with the most... I tend to discount the small things and focus too much on the "biggies" -- I've gotten a lot better about doing stuff for h but I still worry about the house stuff (clutter, etc)

3. WOA -- I think I tend to be too flowery in my comments to h...I also think that I could focus on APPRECIATION more than just compliments, ya know? But it's a surprise to me to hear from him that he needs to HEAR from me ( )

4. PT -- I think this is more mine than his...I'm noting it every day because I need to remind myself that even though I'm not necessarily getting as often as I'd want...I DO get lots of physical touch from h...noting it to appreciate it

5. Gifts -- I don't THINK that h is much of a gifts guys so I haven't focused on this...but I do bring him something from the store (gum, whatever) when I go

6. Showing an interest -- I added this LL because my showing an honest interest in his interests has really had a positive effect...this is a combo of QT and AOS

7. Peace and quiet -- another LL I conjured up -- it may actually be the biggest one for h because I know that when I appear uncalm, agitated, aka "making crazy" it makes HIM crazy.

So all the above probably sounds even nuttier than trying to monitor the LLs daily...Lots of the stuff I'm noting is stuff I'm doing as a natural course of events...but I like to write it down because it reminds me.

Oh, you know what? as I was writing the above I realized that letting h do stuff for ME is an important one too...IOW, I can't be the LL hog in the M because that just leaves the balance horribly tipped!

I guess I DO know this...regardless of whether I'm focusing on 1, 5 or 7...what REALLY works for me is turning my focus outward ("what am I giving") as opposed to inward ("what am I GETTING"). Focusing on meeting h's needs just WORKS and also succeeds in getting my needs met.

A glimpse of pre-bomb sage:

One thing happened last night which was a good reminder for me...after we went food shopping and were cooking together something happened where h did something and the thought flashed into my head "how could he have done that? doesn't he care about me?" -- now, it was something like he walked in front of me while I was trying to do something...oh, wait, it was that he opened the freezer door above my head while I was crouched down putting something in the fridge...it just seemed to be so unthinking that I super personalized it. Later, I was handing him something and he took it really quickly and hurt my thumb (which was already hurting from biting my nail! gross!). Same deal...I remember thinking "how could he do that!"

Anyway...after the thoughts flashed into my head the more rational ones quickly followed...(the "get real, sage, he's not doing that to bug you" ones). I did apologize to h for the finger one because I felt like I had reacted badly to him...the REMINDER is that pre-bomb I felt this way about just about EVERYTHING...every action, cough, word, everything from h I interpreted as a reflection on how he felt about me...and as a result I walked around pissed off a good deal of the time...I had forgotten how much anger I had been harboring at that time until I saw the little glimmers of it again yesterday...NO WONDER we were both miserable!!!!!! I'm glad I don't live in that space anymore (just an occasional visit! )

**********************************************************
So, that's it!!!! I've run through all of my threads ... 21 of them...and posted the highlights over my last 4 threads...it's 111 pages of a word document, too! Guess that's a keeper!

It's funny (or not so) how the major themes are the same...I KNOW what works well in my M and what doesn't...and while it's hard for me to remember that sometimes, when I am able to reground myself and come back to "what works", it justs makes things better all around.

Sometimes I worry...I think to myself "I haven't changed much at all...how can this work?" but then I remind myself that the point wasn't to completely transform myself into someone else...it was to highlight the positives and reduce the negatives...and to get back to "the woman he fell in love with".

Some things are vastly different now...I'm no longer angry all the time...no longer resentful. There was a time where it seemed like everything h did or didn't do was some sort of tacit message to how he felt about ME...and believe me when I say I interpreted his every move. If it didn't fall into my set of "approved actions" it got tallied up as a slight against me. Ugh. What a crappy way to feel (for both of us!).

I'm a better listener now. And when I'm lapsing on that I can usually feel it and try to turn it around fairly quickly.

I think I get h's LLs much better...the quiet time, and quality time that mean so much to him...his need for WOA and acknowledgement for how hard he works..all good stuff. I'm also much smarter about "hearing" his love for me when it doesn't necessarily get spoken in MY LL...noting the positives helped a great deal with that.

I still have "areas for growth" for sure . I'm still insecure a lot of the time. I was listening to a book on tape last night (fiction: "The Mermaid Chair") and there's one point in it where she makes the comment that she was looking to recreate her childhood R with her h. Well, duh, I KNOW that happens but it hit me last night how often I expect my h to make me feel "OK" and "valuable" and "worthy" and "loved" -- all offshoots from NOT feeling that way as a kid. What a burden I've placed on him! And in many ways I think (tho' I'm not sure) that replicates the R he has with his mom...where she bases so much of her worth on how he reacts to her. UGH.

So, working on my own sense of value is a big one for me.

I do still get tied up in wanting "control" because I feel safer that way...the "all about me, so I can fix it" syndrome...perhaps some of you can relate

And, to be sure, trust and maintaining a positive outlook on my future and marriage are sometimes still struggles. I see us still get locked into the "trust/suspicion/openness/secrecy" battle a bit. Looking forward to cracking that nut.

A pretty remarkable place to be, actually, after 2.5 years.

Sage

[Heart2Heart]

Hi Sage,
I just love your 'reviews'!

Sorry I'm late, but CONGRATULATIONS on getting the job offer! Have you already accepted and given notice in your current place?

Was thinking that it might be nice to have a 'book club thread' where we pick a book to read per month and discuss. Not that you need more going on in your life, but hey, since you won't have to study any more....

Hugs,
-H2H

[sage]

H2H,

Sorry I'm late, but CONGRATULATIONS on getting the job offer! Have you already accepted and given notice in your current place?

Thanks for the congratulations! I have accepted the job but haven't been able to give my notice yet. My 2 bosses are both out and the next in command is the CEO (also out!) so I'm in limbo until Friday!!! Yikes!

I can't believe I've accepted it...but it really feels like the right thing. I'm nervous about giving notice here and the aftermath but I've been here a LONG time and I feel like I've given it my all.

It's going to be a HUGE change! Really and truly a brand new career!

Was thinking that it might be nice to have a 'book club thread' where we pick a book to read per month and discuss. Not that you need more going on in your life, but hey, since you won't have to study any more....

I think this is a great idea and I'd be totally up for it! (no more studying!!)

Sage

[Dmsw4]

Sage, what if I have absolutely nothing left to give him?

There were some suggestions in your highlight post that seem so far beyond my capabilities.

[sage]

Sage, what if I have absolutely nothing left to give him?

There were some suggestions in your highlight post that seem so far beyond my capabilities.

Mellanie,

Tell me more...what do you mean?

Is your point that you can't focus on h's ll anymore because you're out of steam? or something else?

Sage

[sage]

I want to post about my evening so that I can remember it for always. It's an interesting and wonderful capstone to the fact that I finished reviewing all of my DB threads yesterday.

I had acupuncture last night so I got home around 7pm. h and I had talked earlier in the day and he offered to make dinner. When I got home he was sort of in the midst of that but also very excited to give me my graduation "card" and present.

The card was actually a letter. I wish I had it with me to post here (though that might embarrass the dickens out of him if he knew that!) but the general summary was this:

Some people say "it would be a perfect world if only..." but I say it IS a perfect world already. Not because it's devoid of pain or hurt, because it isn't, but because there is always the capacity for joy.

I often feel surges of joy at just being alive...and the majority of them come from when I am with you...no matter what we are doing...trying out a new restaurant, watching a ball game at Fenway or just hanging out on the couch, you bring joy to my world.

it went on for a bit.

Then he brought me upstairs, made me close my eyes while he prepared the "multimedia". He started up the song "What a Wondeful World" on his computer and then he walked me into the room where my beautiful present was!

It's a "gemstone globe" -- it looks like this one:

gemstone globe

Basically it's a desktop globe that is made from gemstones...crushed green quartz for the seas and then other gemstones for each of the countries. It's, quite frankly, the pretties thing I think I've ever seen.

He told me that he wants me to take it into my new job with me so that I'll think of him. (As if I needed a globe to accomplish that! but now I'll think of his thoughtfulness and romance with an extra earnestness!)

Sage

[sage]

Back at work after a LONG and fabulous weekend.

This was the celebration weekend...the one that h starting hinting about last August! He planned the most thoroughly decadent and wonderful time for us.

Saturday afternoon he "led" me to the locale...the fanciest hotel in town! Our room was gorgeous and had the perfect view.

Saturday night we went casual...walked around a bit, settled in early. Sunday we had breakfast in the room and then we walked and walked all over town. Walking together is one of those things that just works for us. I think it's the combination of the endorphins and the opportunity for conversation.

He had made an appointment for me to get a massage Sunday afternoon so off I went. It was great. So relaxing! They did some extra aromatherapy at his request so I went back to the room completely unstressed!

Sunday night we went out for a fancy dinner at a restaurant in the hotel. The food was great. We had gone there many years ago and had a huge fight during the first course so it was good to exorcise THAT ghost!

One of the things that devastated me during the bomb dropping was hearing "this has never felt right, you know that." It felt like such a rewriting of history...a long history that had held such a connection for us. Sunday night at dinner h asked me if I agreed that we were just meant to be -- yah, with hard work and all to be sure -- but a connection that feels like it is meant to be there. I said "yes" and we talked about our past a bit...how we had met and changed and grown...

Monday we slept super late and then headed home. We did a bunch of errands in the afternoon and relaxed last night watching the Sox get killed.

I gave my notice today. I have to admit I'm internally freaking out a bit. I can't believe I'm going to leave this job! I've been here for 7 years!

I asked h this am if he thought what I was doing was insane...he said "NO. it's bold". After I gave my notice I called him and he said all the right stuff -- not platitudes but a real understanding of how scary and right this feels all at once.

HE starts his new job next monday!!! I can't wait to celebrate with him.

Sage

[BRIDGET]

Oh, Sage, it's bloomin' roses round ya!

Congratulations again on yr many successes.
Give H a hug and keep smiling.

Way to go, taking the leap into the new and
giving notice at yr old job. The way looks clear
to continued prosperity and love.

U R a beacon!

Love and high fives, Bridget-the-Hopeful

[sage]

Bridget! No update from you??? (I looked!) Thanks for the visit, girlfriend.

Kind of an off night last night. h woke up yesterday irked with me. I guess he didn't sleep well and said I was stealing the covers and he was cold. Definitely contributed to the wrong side of the bed syndrome. He had a quiet day at home and when I got home from work we went for a walk. It was a beautiful night, the walk was great, but he was still perturbed.

When we got home I neglected to take my shoes off so he got irked about that, too. He elaborated a bit on how irked he was about the covers thing and the tracking dirt thing. Frankly, it was humbling to be on the other side of his bad mood/anger. It's easy for me to say "just detach!" or "don't take it personally!" when I post to others but h's anger is so far between now that when it comes back it's startling.

Anyway, I did detach and I didn't take it personally . I probably talked too much but in a lighthearted non-threatened way. He apologized a few times. He said "I shouldn't bring this stuff up with you when I still do annoying things" (to which I responded "Honey, you don't have to be perfect yourself in order to raise concerns with me!") and later he mused aloud "why didn't you start bringing up my faults during the conversation?" (to which I replied "Honey, we were talking about issues that you were upset about. What does that have to do with your quirks? It's not a competition!")

This morning he woke up and gave me a few hugs and thanked me for being so sensitive to his feelings. (And, I'll note, I did NOT steal any covers last night!).

He's got a lot on his plate right now and perhaps he's also yearning for some alone time after the long weekend of closeness...I'm cool with that...I've got things to do, too . I do wish, though, if that's it, that it could come wrapped in a different package...the anger and "you always" and "you never" and "I've given up thinking THAT will change" reminds me too much of THEN.

Sage

[sage]

Bridget -- duh. I was looking in the wrong place for your update! off to read your thread!

Later...double DUH! OK, there is no update from you! I got all confused. How the heck are ya?

Sage