well, i was asked to start a new thread since my old thread was getting too long.
so here it goes.
not much development - are you surprised? i am possibly the worst db-er on earth.
but i did discover that when i stop doing what works, i fall back into the downward spiral. let that be a lesson to the newbies who are working on themselves.
i stopped working out and playing squash for about 2 weeks. during that time, i fell back into the depression that i experienced at the beginning of the d-bomb drop. with h moving to his new digs and out of the apartment building, the strings were being cut and i felt it. this triggered that spiral down turn. also, the legal matters didn't help.
in about 6 months time, it'll be my turn to move into the neighbourhood where he lives though.
anyway, lesson #2 is that intel information must be used wisely. if there is clear evidence that there is an A going on, then yeah. but if there isn't, keeping tabs on him is a form of control and can leave you paralyzed. it has to stop. (ie. stop doing what doesn't work).
being angry also doesn't help. if you think i've spewed crap on these boards, you don't know the half of it. my family was ready to declare me clinically insane. yes, they are worried about my mental state and i do have to take better care of myself.
during the two weeks that i stopped squash, i lost my appetite and lost another 5 lbs from not eating. my apartment was in disarray as well - i'm usually a neat person but the place was a mess. i just didn't feel like doing anything for two weeks.
hiding from people and not interacting with my friends was what helped me over the summer. when i don't interact with people, i go squirrely.
so tomorrow, i'm going to attend the orientation session for volunteering at the local womens' shelter. i'm used to taking care of someone else - when i lived at home, i took care of my parents. when i lived with my h, i took care of him. now that i am by myself, i have nobody to take care of. i could get a dog or cat but i'm not big on picking up after animals.
i read somewhere that in order to move forward, i have to give back. i've been so focused on my negatives that i don't realize how fortunate that i really am. i blew off the gratitude lists but really, i should have much to be thankful for. regardless of what happens, i'm gonna be just fine. i hate having my heart broken but life goes on. there are people out there with bigger issues than just a broken heart.
i won't be posting here much anymore. i am working on my recovery elsewhere.
i wanted to work on me. and when i'm healed, i'll return to help others out.
take care for now,
D4MIL
I don't believe I have ever played squash. Raquetball I have played. Are they similar?
same court, different racquet.
both are great cardio workouts. it leaves me feeling good and youthful .. regardless of whether i win or lose.
story ... i love inspiring people to be the best person they can be. everywhere i go, i encourage people to stay active. take up a sport and be active. there's an older gentleman at work who has a bad back due to scoliosis (sp?). he also had poor vision. he had several operations to fix his eye sight. and after hearing me talk about how squash makes me feel alive, it inspired him to play racquet ball again. he hadn't played in years. it makes you feel good and makes you feel young. there is no better feeling than to feel alive.
when someone is down and out, there is a part of them that feels dead. they need to find something to make them feel alive again. being active and taking part in a sport is the best way to get that 'alive' feeling.
i tell people on this board that the best GAL activity is exercise or taking up a sport. sitting a bar and watching football games is fun but that's not going to make someone feel better. you end up drinking beer and eating unhealthy food. gaining weight and then feeling miserable about yourself.
when you exercise, you have energy and you develop muscle tone. you look great. you feel great. people notice and it just snowballs.
not only should we exercise more. help others. inspire others. teach someone something new. give back.
Exercise has saved my sanity--I am hooked!!
Good stuff D4ML--lots of insight. Honing in on what works and what doesn't work is very important.
Our journeys are interesting, no matter what is happening. Looking back with clarity helps to see that this path is not a horrible one. You may not have wanted it, but you have developed in some really interesting ways.
Volunteering at the shelter sounds awesome. Your problems will pale in comparison. And your developing coping skills will be appreciated. Helping others in areas that you have some knowledge is going to feel amazing.
Good luck!
Laura
lauraoh,
i'm saddened by the turn of events in your m. you are going through it with a great attitude.
Good stuff D4ML--lots of insight. Honing in on what works and what doesn't work is very important.
that's just me working on me.
Looking back with clarity helps to see that this path is not a horrible one. You may not have wanted it, but you have developed in some really interesting ways.
i have started to understand a bit better where i went wrong.
from time to time, i still make excuses and shift blame to my mil for being a poor mother.
1. i need to work on my communication skills. i clam up when i'm worried/concerned/unhappy about something. it comes across as shutting someone out.
2. i need to show more compassion. i have never spoke about certain things on this board. but there were times when i discovered my h's "double life" and my reaction made him feel like there was something horribly wrong with him. i should have been more compassionate. instead, i reacted like i thought he was a freak.
3. i need to check my pride at the door. a marriage is a partnership where both of us work together and not against one another. it's not a competition about who wins or loses.
during my time on this board, i actually developed a fourth problem - a very jaded view of marriage. i have read a lot of posts about how a woman needs to feel secure in her marriage - secure in the emotional and financial sense. and it made me cringe. men telling other men that women need to feel financially secure in a relationship - yet, it is the men who turn around and accuse the women of marrying them for their money?
Helping others in areas that you have some knowledge is going to feel amazing.
i will help if i'm called upon. i want to work on me first.
btw, i did the right thing for my separation agreement. no blood, no guts. just the right thing.
D4MIL
men telling other men that women need to feel financially secure in a relationship - yet, it is the men who turn around and accuse the women of marrying them for their money?
I think it is a huge area of concern for men. They feel? vulnerable? in this area.
You and I are the LB. We brought our own assets into our marriages and yet STILL heard how we married just for money. Our H's PARENTS got involved and said the same thing.
It occurs all over these boards. Again, we are nothing special.
The only thing not all over the boards is your insight into you. Explore that more.
Hey--why are you sad about my sitch?? I am in a pretty good place right now! As I keep telling my depressed H, Hey, if you had made any efforts at all you would have peace right now--that's how it is that I'm happy--I did the work (yes, I did use that phrase!)
men telling other men that women need to feel financially secure in a relationship - yet, it is the men who turn around and accuse the women of marrying them for their money?
I think it is a huge area of concern for men. They feel? vulnerable? in this area
whatever it is .. i don't buy it. the vets can preach that but guys will turn around and accuse us of marrying them for their money.
It occurs all over these boards. Again, we are nothing special.
not that i've read. but that's not say i think i'm unique. i just don't think this happens often. from what i see, the fight is usually over kids. when the fight is over the kids, then you know that both parents are human. they value their relationship with their children. very different mindsets.
The only thing not all over the boards is your insight into you. Explore that more.
here's a piece of insight that i discovered. it's not about "wanting to teach him a lesson". all this time, i kept saying "i didn't get to say my piece" or "i want to make him realize what the consequences are" and "i want to teach him a lesson to not do this." it isn't about teaching him a lesson.
i found myself actually saying .. i no longer want to be a doormat. i learned what was bothering me. he was controlling the situation and i allowed it. he walked all over me and finally, i said .. enough. and i did.
i need to stop obsessing. it's extremely unattractive and makes me look like a complete crazy woman. really unattractive.
i guess i'm sad about your sitch because i was hoping your sitch would survive. when i read that he had filed, my heart sank.
i know you are in a good place, but you sound like me a few months ago .. where life was great. and now life kinda sucks again but who knows. still lots to think about. i actually want to go away somewhere for a month to truly grieve the end of my marriage.
D4MIL
He filed 2 months ago--Aug 9. I thought you had read that ages ago...
Anyway, he made threats a week ago, and now is "instrospective" which makes me nuts--NOW you want to work on you?? Well, I have moved on..mostly..but the old me loves the DB process and totally believes in it, and is struggling being sucked back in. I think "try this" "do that".lol.
I need to sit and do nothing--the opposite of you.lol. But that's what works sometimes. People who killed themselves trying to win back their H's need to RELAX and HAVE FUN!!lol!
He filed 2 months ago--Aug 9. I thought you had read that ages ago...
seeing the words again was like being hit with a brick. i am always waiting to hear that he decided to retract it.
I need to sit and do nothing--the opposite of you.lol. But that's what works sometimes. People who killed themselves trying to win back their H's need to RELAX and HAVE FUN!!lol!
i need to focus on me. i need to stop focusing/obsessing over exh. it will be okay. i am bordering obsessed - as my ic told me today.
D
"men telling other men that women need to feel financially secure in a relationship - yet, it is the men who turn around and accuse the women of marrying them for their money?"
But.. this is what the world tells us. As boys we are taught women need to be "coddled". To a man this is the epitome of what we should do.. "Provide and Protect". Is it not a normal and expected reaction that when things fall apart.. after they have done these things to the best of their ability.. to respond with "she can't "see" anything I have done?" I harp on this so much.. but I will do it again.. It is all about the OP's perspective and the "Emotion" that they are looking at the situation with. If things are not working.. you can get angry.. or frustrated.. or tired of doing things. This sets into motion that person looking back on their life with "colored" glasses. It is not any different that the LBS looking at the situation in front of them.. and acting a fool.. or hiding in the bedroom.. or becoming stuck.
Don't compare the advice given to someone here.. to your "stitch" or thoughts. Even if you have read it all.. there is a possibility that someone has a different perspective. At the end of the day.. you are looking for someone to provide and protect you.. we all are. It may not be money or a home in your "stitch"... but it very well might be in someone else's.
If you believe the information is being passed incorrectly.. or needs more definition.. jump in there and state your case.
Off we go...
"but i did discover that when i stop doing what works, i fall back into the downward spiral. let that be a lesson to the newbies who are working on themselves."
So.. step one is important? Save yourself? How do you explain that to someone that does not want to hear it?
Part of breaking the cycle in a "stitch" relies on the poster taking tiny.. little steps forward. It is the old.. you have to have a solid foundation to build on. I have come to realize that no matter how you say it.. they won't listen. So I distract them with "silly things". I usually come up with little things people can do get their mind off things. Then I watch the "tone" of the posting. Now that you have had your perspective changed.. go back and read your first posts. You might find that you laugh at yourself a bit. DB'ing or any "Save your Marriage" idea will have this basic principle as step one. How many books have been written about this? Why is getting your body and mind straight the FIRST thing you have to do?
I suspect that in doing "that" you change your perspective on the situation.
I could be wrong though.
"anyway, lesson #2 is that intel information must be used wisely. if there is clear evidence that there is an A going on, then yeah. but if there isn't, keeping tabs on him is a form of control and can leave you paralyzed. it has to stop."
Personally.. I would never post to someone that was trying the "hard" approach. In my mind it is thousands of times harder to pull it off. I have seen a few cases where it "worked". "Worked" is subjective in this case. Again.. IMO.. it takes a special person to do it. It requires that you be leaps and bounds above the "normal" poster "here" (DB.com). DB.. does allow for it. It can be effective. Michelle does not spend a lot of time on it though. I believe that if you are going to go the "hard" way.. you have to have a personal mentor that is available at a moments notice. Or just have tons of self control.
I have been here for a while.. not really an old timer yet.. but I am very selective about who I post to. Mostly because I don't have the time I used to.. but mainly because from my perspective you have a chance if you listen.
"i read somewhere that in order to move forward, i have to give back."
Well.. because I know where you read that.. let me just say this.
You can give back every day.. by just being yourself.
If you can wake up.. and put this crap behind you.. smile.. and do your thing.. you are off to an awesome start.
"Looking down" on "someone" does have the effect of making your life look better. It changes your perspective.
What you fail to realize.. is that that person you are "looking down" on.. Got up.. put the crap behind them.. maybe smiled.. and did their thing.
"i won't be posting here much anymore. i am working on my recovery elsewhere."
I am still watching.. truth be told.. I am curious if you get different advice.
"btw, i did the right thing for my separation agreement. no blood, no guts. just the right thing."
It will be interesting to "see" how it pans out. Personally.. I still think you have a chance. But.. if all you do is walk away with your head held high.. I am OK with that.
But.. this is what the world tells us. As boys we are taught women need to be "coddled". To a man this is the epitome of what we should do.. "Provide and Protect".
i guess to me, that's mind reading. how do you know that's what i want? or what another woman wants? not every woman wants the same thing.
someone on another thread said it best. it's not about financial security .. it's about being able to "handle it" when life throws curve balls at you. and you know what? my h threw hissy fits and panicked when life threw a small change-up at him. "omg, how do i put this presentation together for the vp?!" .. you're a senior manager and you're freaking out? i had to calm him down and i got the presentation started for him. and i'm just a pee-on.
is that about money? no, and i started seeing more and more of it. that when life throws things at you, you have to be able to handle it .. at least, don't show that you can't. it made me less and less confident in his ability. that's how i ended up with the non-emotional lead role.
I harp on this so much.. but I will do it again.. It is all about the OP's perspective and the "Emotion" that they are looking at the situation with. If things are not working.. you can get angry.. or frustrated.. or tired of doing things. This sets into motion that person looking back on their life with "colored" glasses. It is not any different that the LBS looking at the situation in front of them.. and acting a fool.. or hiding in the bedroom.. or becoming stuck.
it's all perception. but it sounds like you're saying to make accusations like that is really meant to hurt the other person because the OP is frustrated that things aren't working. like a woman withholds sex so a man makes hurtful accusations at her. how does that solve anything?
Don't compare the advice given to someone here.. to your "stitch" or thoughts. Even if you have read it all.. there is a possibility that someone has a different perspective.
but if our sitches aren't unique, then most advice would apply to all sitches.
i think it's the wrong message to send. we want financial responsibility .. not financial security. the latter implies that we are gold diggers looking for a sugardaddy.
having financial security is like having unlimited funds and you can buy whatever you want.
being financially responsible, forgetting to pay the electricity bill, or spending beyond your means.
to me, those are two different things.
At the end of the day.. you are looking for someone to provide and protect you.. we all are. It may not be money or a home in your "stitch"... but it very well might be in someone else's.
for sure. but i will think twice about wanting someone to provide and protect me. there will always be a voice that says "don't be fooled by these empty promises. it's a trojan horse that will come back and bite you."
So.. step one is important? Save yourself? How do you explain that to someone that does not want to hear it?
you tell them to go talk to D4MIL. the way i "saw" it was from reading other threads. i saw how others were frazzled and trying to implement the advice being given by others and failing miserably. and you start to look at why this was happening. if this advice is being given by a vet who has been there, why isn't it working? then you realize the person isn't in the right frame of mind to start doing the work. this problem still exists in newcomers.
I have come to realize that no matter how you say it.. they won't listen.
we're in our own fog. however, you have to let them experience what it's like to be completely powerless and rotten. only then, can they decide that they don't want that.
I suspect that in doing "that" you change your perspective on the situation.
i kept asking myself why i kept wanting to teach him a lesson. and yes, he may not get it. but it wasn't until i described what saying my piece would mean .. is when i figured out that teaching him a lesson was my way of standing up for myself instead of being a doormat.
I believe that if you are going to go the "hard" way.. you have to have a personal mentor that is available at a moments notice. Or just have tons of self control.
i don't advocate going gucci or robx .. i look at whether the person is in the right frame of mind to say/do anything.
but mainly because from my perspective you have a chance if you listen.
perhaps. my ic is trying to get me to stop focusing on my h or my m. in her perspective, our m was doomed from the start. now that oughta be a mood lifter.
If you can wake up.. and put this crap behind you.. smile.. and do your thing.. you are off to an awesome start.
it's a struggle to do this.
i have spewed so much crap that it's pretty freaky. i do it to let it out of my system. i have to be careful who i do it in front of.
What you fail to realize.. is that that person you are "looking down" on.. Got up.. put the crap behind them.. maybe smiled.. and did their thing.
i gotta turn the attention back on to me. otherwise, i'm gonna get a restraining order slapped on to me.
that was my second attempt at handwaving.
i need to work on me!
I am still watching.. truth be told.. I am curious if you get different advice.
i'm not looking for different advice. i am giving others the chance to look at my sitch and then look at their own and maybe say "mine isn't so bad cuz D4MIL has it worse!"
i have a tendency to seek advice from a variety of sources but in my attempts here, i have stuck by FG's advice.
It will be interesting to "see" how it pans out. Personally.. I still think you have a chance. But.. if all you do is walk away with your head held high.. I am OK with that.
the lack of communication is causing me not to see anything. and i'm tired of waiting for the fog to clear. the longer he stays in this fog, the less of a chance we have. they say it takes 6 months for a guy to bounce back and find someone new. i'm sure he's having the time of his life with a new gold digger .. err .. girlfriend.
me? i'm just waiting for my home to be built. waiting for the SA to be finalized. i want to be confident, happy, and radiant on the day i sign those documents. and that's my goal.
i want to stop this insanity.. maybe this real separation is going to help me. i can stop going out to show that i have a life. i can sit at home and meditate and enjoy reading or watching tv for a change.
D4MIL
But.. this is what the world tells us. As boys we are taught women need to be "coddled". To a man this is the epitome of what we should do.. "Provide and Protect".
i guess to me, that's mind reading. how do you know that's what i want? or what another woman wants? not every woman wants the same thing.
We don't know that is what you want. I think you miss the point. It is not that all women want to be provided for and protected. The point is society tells us (men) that this is what we should do. I was actually pretty good at this. When it doesn't work we don't understand why. I told our MC "W doesn't think the rules apply to her". I didn't really know what I meant when I said it, but I felt it. I do now and it was exactly this point, "why don't I get credit when I do the 'right' thing". I was playing by society's rules, not by W's.
I think this is common and I think a lot of Ws could learn something from this. Many men think this way. It is not that we are right, but we know no other way. The catch-22 is that to learn this stuff we have to open up and many women see that as weakness. IMHO.
NFTP .. i generally do not respond to posters on my thread who i suspect will be one time posters but i will address this one.
please excuse my harshness ..
We don't know that is what you want. I think you miss the point. It is not that all women want to be provided for and protected. The point is society tells us (men) that this is what we should do.
if you don't know what your w wants, then you need to ask her, validate her, and learn to ask the right questions. active listening.
society may be feeding you this. but is society running the show? we as individuals have a responsibility .. how did divorce become the 'norm'? because of society's acceptance of it? do we have to accept it just because hollywood glorifies it? society says infidelity is a 'norm' .. should i label every man as a cheater? we as individuals are part of society that is sending this message or creating this 'acceptance'.
I do now and it was exactly this point, "why don't I get credit when I do the 'right' thing". I was playing by society's rules, not by W's.
that line shows that you're keeping score in your marriage which is a big problem.
you never keep score .. or do this 'tit for tat' thing that it sounds like. you're an adult, not a child.
besides, what you think is the right thing, may not be the 'right' thing for her. and that's why you shouldn't keep score. you're giving yourself a donation to the love bank but to her, it might be a withdrawal.
anyway, i'm going to end the discussion here. i will continue to use this thread to document my own journey to healing.
D4MIL
D4MIL,
I'll keep up with you.
Where were you two years ago! I'd be in a much better place right now if I'd known some of these things. I don't "blame society". I know the way I loved my W wasn't what she needed. Unfortunately I learned too late. I step up and admit my failures. Guilty as charged. I'm not the only one, W hasn't quite seen her failures yet. The ironic thing is that now that we are separated we're both doing a lot more of what the other needed. For ourselves.
I’m not trying to tell you what you should want, or what your needs should be. But if you do not communicate them, don’t be surprised when men don’t know what they are and we fall back on what society tells us. Women do this too, just in different ways.
Where were you two years ago! I'd be in a much better place right now if I'd known some of these things.
i was still somewhat happily married.
i'm ready to face my worst case scenario that the marriage is over.
The ironic thing is that now that we are separated we're both doing a lot more of what the other needed. For ourselves.
are you both happier doing a lot more of what the other needed for yourselves?
i can relate to that but for me, no .. i'm not happier. why? carrie underwood once said it best .. "it'd be nice to be able to call someone else other than my mom when i win an award". and that's exactly how it feels. who do i share my life's successes and accomplishments with? life turned itself around but who's there to share it with?
i've been looking for a vacation. well, to travel solo will cost me the same amount of $$ as if i was travelling with someone. why?
yes, i can afford to pay double the price .. but it's the principle. why should i? i'm not using twice amount of water or soap when i shower. i'm not making twice the amount of a mess for the maid to clean. i'm not eating twice the amount of food.
so what do i do? not travel? should i be letting this solo act stop me from doing the things i love to do?
so now i work longer to get paid more so i can afford a vacation.
oh yeah, i can't even join those contiki tours in europe because it's for 18-35 yr olds. i'm in my late 30s.
that's my latest beef. the perks of being a twosome.
btw, i hate not being able to edit. moderators, is this a communist community?
D4MIL
so what do i do? not travel? should i be letting this solo act stop me from doing the things i love to do?
No, you should not. Decide where you want to go. Research. Compare. Use Expedia, Travelocity, Orbitz...then go. The brutal reality, sister, is that if you want to travel at this time, you will be solo. So what? Go anyway. Or invite your girlfriends to join you. Organize a girls' trip. Live YOUR life!
Greek
greek .. it was a rhetorical question.
i wasn't going to let this stop me from travelling.
you suck it up and find a way.
with me, my friends are either all married .. yes, i have no divorced friends. no widows, and no single girl friends. everyone has kids or grandkids. i'm the only one without kids or a h. most cannot afford the time due to family obligations. i don't expect them to take a week off for me.
or, they are all recent college grads. there's a 12 year age gap between me and them, not to mention the amount of disposable income.
i've done my homework. i've checked out all of those sites, called several agencies, and there's nothing they can do. i need to scale down my idea of a vacation. the vacations i want to take are a bit more costly than i expected.
my best option is to create my own vacation. so we'll see.
d4mil
greek .. it was a rhetorical question.
i wasn't going to let this stop me from travelling.
Okie-dokie. I think I got that.
with me, my friends are either all married .. yes, i have no divorced friends. no widows, and no single girl friends. everyone has kids or grandkids. i'm the only one without kids or a h. most cannot afford the time due to family obligations. i don't expect them to take a week off for me.
Not for you ~ with you. With some notice, I'd be willing to bet plenty of married girlfriends - esp. w/ kids - would love an opp to get away with another friend. Probably just what they would need actually, for a little perspective. It could be a win/win - good for them and goodness for you. Won't know until you ask.
my best option is to create my own vacation. so we'll see.
d4mil
Hope it goes well
Greek
"please excuse my harshness .. "
"if you don't know what your H wants, then you need to ask him, validate him, and learn to ask the right questions. active listening."
So.. where have you done this.. Dumped?
Please point to the post.. cause I missed it.
"but if our sitches aren't unique, then most advice would apply to all sitches."
Advice does. It just depends on how you read it. It is the context of the advice.
"for sure. but i will think twice about wanting someone to provide and protect me. there will always be a voice that says "don't be fooled by these empty promises. it's a trojan horse that will come back and bite you."
Do you really think.. that from post 1.. I did not see that? Maybe I should have just stopped posting once I saw that. How would that have worked out? I am not here to have you waste my time. But if that is how you want to live your life.. go ahead.
"if this advice is being given by a vet who has been there, why isn't it working? then you realize the person isn't in the right frame of mind to start doing the work. this problem still exists in newcomers."
Working is so subjective. Is the newcomer doing things exactly as they report to DB.com? Most likely not. So.. is it the vet that failed.. or the newcomer? Is it not the Newcomers job.. to really follow direction? They came.. they posted.. but did they listen? This issue will always be in the Newcomer section. Look at Puppy's goodbye.. heck look at any vets goodbye.
People need to be prepared.. that is what the vets will do.
It is still up to the Newcomer to make sure they follow the Vets advice.
The vet expects failure.. and still tries to lead. But it can become frustrating to do. You can only come up with so many ways to say it.
"we're in our own fog. however, you have to let them experience what it's like to be completely powerless and rotten. only then, can they decide that they don't want that."
So.. now you have cleared the fog? Do you understand yet?
I knew.. from post 1 that me and you would be right here.. fighting it out.
You very likely won't like me.. cause I am gonna beat you up.
I am OK with that.
Cause from the start.. I told you all you had to say was "Forrest.. go away."
Dumped.. Who do you want to be?
Time is up..
I won't let you roll out like this.
Unless you tell me too.
So.. where have you done this.. Dumped?
i didn't say i did this. but the advice here is usually .. ask, validate, etc.
i have asked my stbxh on many occasions what he wants. sometimes i like to just surprise him by showing him i learned something about his hobby or his interest. it shows that i have been listening to him and it's not just garble.
he would want a particular brand of scotch. i would make a call to get it reserved and shipped to the store nearest where we lived. he got it for christmas last year.
i would asked him if i was getting better at intimacy. i would ask what he liked or didn't like.
the one thing that i am guilty of is .. i journal my thoughts and my thoughts never leave the pages of my journal. after the first year of my marriage, i wanted to walk away. i had written a long letter to my stbxh telling him why i was walking away.
i never sent that letter. to this day, i never told him that i wanted to leave after our first year together. i'm sure if i told him now, he would say "see, i knew we both wanted this." i watched my position in his priority queue get lower and lower. then i became disposable.
maybe i was replaced by someone more important. someone who would give him everything he wanted. i always said that i was preparing him for his real wife. he didn't like hearing that. but i always had this feeling that he would leave me. and he did.
D4MIL
People need to be prepared.. that is what the vets will do.
i don't think all vets do. most just refer to the "letting go" thread or "what makes a man attractive" or "sandi's do's and dont's list".
The vet expects failure.. and still tries to lead. But it can become frustrating to do. You can only come up with so many ways to say it.
i agree with this and i'm not a vet.
So.. now you have cleared the fog? Do you understand yet?
to be honest, i don't know if i'm out of the fog yet. sometimes i think i am and then wham .. i go through his crazy phase and i'm SURE i'm not out of the fog. but in some ways, i don't think i am.
I knew.. from post 1 that me and you would be right here.. fighting it out.
You very likely won't like me.. cause I am gonna beat you up.
I am OK with that.
i'm okay with it too.
Cause from the start.. I told you all you had to say was "Forrest.. go away."
you know why i didn't tell you go away? because i needed someone to challenge what i thought i knew about relationships and men. i need to "see", hear, and feel what i knew about relationships challenged. in a way, it would help me change for the better. so i can approach future "relationships" with a different outlook.
i know me. if you can't totally convince me that my knowledge is flawed, then i will go into future relationships making the same mistakes. heck, it's like the LLs. i didn't know that gifts were so important and it doesn't mean they are materialistic.
i didn't know about the power of compassion.
i didn't know that men need to feel valued/needed and loved .. i know i'm not using the right words but it's something along those lines.
challenge my views. i'm not trying to pick a fight about the "women want financial security" issue. i'm trying to let you know why i see it my way. and maybe someone will change that in me.
Dumped.. Who do you want to be?
for the longest time, i wanted to be my h's wife.
but now, i just want to be the daughter that my mom knew before i got married. i put family first before myself.
i could care less if i was with anybody. i was content on my own. i worked to take care of the family. it didn't bother me if i didn't have a valentine on feb 14th. i didn't care if i received flowers or not.
i had disposable income but didn't spend it. saved it for a place of my own.
I won't let you roll out like this.
what do you mean by this?
waiting for the fat lady to sing.
D4MIL
D4mil,
I've seen your posts elsewhere, with several arguments about the theory that women want financial security or men think we do, and how unfair it is that it's held against us as if we're "gold diggers", if and when we actually do want security. I think you reject it as a theory, totally. Then later you say your h is probably dating some ow and you yourself describe her as a "gold-digger...or...girlfriend..." Just noting it, okay?
I'm a professional woman and a mom. I read a study some 20 years ago that validated my personal experience, so perhaps it bears repeating. When asked what men & women most valued in a spouse, men reported "attractiveness and peace in the home" (I read that as "decent sex/looks good, and no nagging"). Women reported "Fidelity and security". To me, "fidelity" meant "don't cheat" and "Security" meant I want to feel safe. It's more than finances, but it included financial security too, and I have no shame in that at all. I have worked hard.
When we had our first child (surprise!) I was in law school so my "maternity leave" was without pay b/c graduation was delayed. I was SO GLAD my h could provide well enough for us for me to have that time off and not starve. By the 3rd child, born 12 yrs later, h earned enough for me to stay home for some years and I was and still am grateful for that. He owed the military a commitment for his med school so it wasn't as if he could stay home instead of me, but even if he could, my inclinations were more in line with it than his).
Maybe it's a biological thing for some of us, and I was surprised to feel this way frankly. But then I liken it to the caveman theory, and it helps explain.
I like to think if I were home in the cave with an infant, and my h went out to hunt & gather, that I could count on him to come back with some meat or berries and not empty handed, while our nursing baby cries from hunger. If there were scary noises at night, I like to think my h would not hide behind me, but would go investigate with his club, while I protect the child. I'd back him up to be sure, but I"d want him in front. As a feminist, a part of me feels a tad embarrassed, but as a mother, (& a smaller person than my h,) I'm more & more comfortable admitting it. I feel differently now than I did before I had kids. I never ever planned on being a sahm, but I'm lucky I could.
Charles Mee wrote a play called "Big Love" (nothing to do with polygamy) that encapsulates the demands on men and women better than anything I've read or seen elsewhere. Our son was in the play in NYC. It made me cry to hear his character describe how hard (and unfair) it is for a man to have to be "ready to Kill or die" and in the next breath, be "ready to make love or comfort a dying friend, tenderly"...yes we do expect both the "sensitive guy" and the "killer caveman" bringing home meat. Or at least almost all of my friends and I do. The piece the lead female had a monologue about women today too. It was well written and described our dilemmas about being strong independent modern women who aren't "needy", and yet how we somehow play the whole "make him feel like a man" role too. Expectations matter. But we have to know of them.
I've worked harder to express my gratitude to my h for staying in shape, being physically strong, and being a good provider. It matters a lot to him and costs me so little.
I think you're very hurt, and I understand that. Most of us have been there, and I am among them. But you seem to be trying to apply your sitch globally, almost politically. and though I don't think it works, the real question is, how does it help you at all?
[/b]
When you predicted that your h would leave you, do you see how that might have played out as a self fulfilling prophecy?
Why would you expect him to leave you anyhow? Why'd you want to leave him after a year, and why'd you stay? From this day forward, what do you want your life to look like?
I posted to you on someone else's thread unfortunately, (it was a long one) but, oh well... Have you talked to a DB coach? Of the many many good helpful things I did to be here, if I only had one thing I could do in the same sitch, I'd hire a DB coach. Their advice is specific and detailed and so helpful. I highly recommend them. They won't say "stay at all costs" even if it were an option, and they understand that you may simply need a new approach to your life as a woman without a h present. They get that. good luck,
j-
D4mil,
I've seen your posts elsewhere, with several arguments about the theory that women want financial security or men think we do, and how unfair it is that it's held against us as if we're "gold diggers", if and when we actually do want security. I think you reject it as a theory, totally. Then later you say your h is probably dating some ow and you yourself describe her as a "gold-digger...or...girlfriend..." Just noting it, okay?
I'm a professional woman and a mom. I read a study some 20 years ago that validated my personal experience, so perhaps it bears repeating. When asked what men & women most valued in a spouse, men reported "attractiveness and peace in the home" (I read that as "decent sex/looks good, and no nagging"). Women reported "Fidelity and security". To me, "fidelity" meant "don't cheat" and "Security" meant [b]I want to feel safe. It's more than finances, but it included financial security too, and I have no shame in that at all. I have worked hard. [/b]
When we had our first child (surprise!) I was in law school so my "maternity leave" was without pay b/c graduation was delayed. I was SO GLAD my h could provide well enough for us for me to have that time off and not starve. By the 3rd child, born 12 yrs later, h earned enough for me to stay home for some years and I was and still am grateful for that. He owed the military a commitment for his med school so it wasn't as if he could stay home instead of me, but even if he could, my inclinations were more in line with it than his).
Maybe it's a biological thing for some of us, and I was surprised to feel this way frankly. But then I liken it to the caveman theory, and it helps explain.
I like to think if I were home in the cave with an infant, and my h went out to hunt & gather, that I could count on him to come back with some meat or berries and not empty handed, while our nursing baby cries from hunger. If there were scary noises at night, I like to think my h would not hide behind me, but would go investigate with his club, while I protect the child. I'd back him up to be sure, but I"d want him in front. As a feminist, a part of me feels a tad embarrassed, but as a mother, (& a smaller person than my h,) I'm more & more comfortable admitting it. I feel differently now than I did before I had kids. I never ever planned on being a sahm, but I'm lucky I could.
Charles Mee wrote a play called "Big Love" (nothing to do with polygamy) that encapsulates the demands on men and women better than anything I've read or seen elsewhere. Our son was in the play in NYC. It made me cry to hear his character describe how hard (and unfair) it is for a man to have to be "ready to Kill or die" and in the next breath, be "ready to make love or comfort a dying friend, tenderly"...yes we do expect both the "sensitive guy" and the "killer caveman" bringing home meat. Or at least almost all of my friends and I do. The piece the lead female had a monologue about women today too. It was well written and described our dilemmas about being strong independent modern women who aren't "needy", and yet how we somehow play the whole "make him feel like a man" role too. Expectations matter. But we have to know of them.
I've worked harder to express my gratitude to my h for staying in shape, being physically strong, and being a good provider. It matters a lot to him and costs me so little.
I think you're very hurt, and I understand that. Most of us have been there, and I am among them. But you seem to be trying to apply your sitch globally, almost politically. and though I don't think it works, the real question is, how does it help you at all?
[/b]
When you predicted that your h would leave you, do you see how that might have played out as a self fulfilling prophecy?
Why would you expect him to leave you anyhow? Why'd you want to leave him after a year, and why'd you stay? From this day forward, what do you want your life to look like?
I posted to you on someone else's thread unfortunately, (it was a long one) but, oh well... Have you talked to a DB coach? Of the many many good helpful things I did to be here, if I only had one thing I could do in the same sitch, I'd hire a DB coach. Their advice is specific and detailed and so helpful. I highly recommend them. They won't say "stay at all costs" even if it were an option, and they understand that you may simply need a new approach to your life as a woman without a h present. They get that. good luck,
j-
25 ~~~~ Now that's Big Girl Talk!! I don't know when I've eve appreciated an explanation moree than I enjoyed what you wrote. It is spot on, deep and wide, honest and so well put. Thank you.
Really. Thank you!
Greek
Greek,
glad to assist. I believe all that I said -- but I still have to work on expressing it more often to my h. Getting better at it, though.
Greek,
glad to assist. I believe all that I said -- but I still have to work on expressing it more often to my h. Getting better at it, though.
No kidding, 25...you really put it together well. I've been thinking about this idea of independence, self-reliance, strength, ability and autonomy...and how it fits into a relationship with a man. I've been wrestling with it personally, and as the mother of a daughter. How do I raise her to find the balance in her life? How do I keep the balance in my life? To be me - and be his? Well, I don't say you've answered all of those questions, but you truly put the right words to an opinion I agree with.
And how generous of you to take the time to share those thoughts with a younger woman (D4MIL). That's the sisterhood. It helped this older woman, too.
Cheers!~~~
Greek
d4,
About your name and the whole MIL thing-- I read back on your old posts b/c the screen name is so confusing and frankly, alarming. I'm not positive it fits either. There's not much data about it, so I can't really know. And as for your h lurking here, I don't believe after this long, that he'd still be reading posts here that would somehow sabatage your DB efforts. Seriously, either give some details or explain why you aren't.
More importantly, is your mil's data about you even real? If it's not, then who cares? IOW, if she believes the earth is flat and you're a purple lesbian frog, does it really matter? Oh, wait, you fear your h thinks what she says is true? First, I'd counter any negative images she's feeding him, OR he's feeding himself, with positives to contrast. (180's...If they say you're stingy, be generous. IF it's a true statement).
Second, if he's the type to believe whatever his mother says, at this age, and or is so co-dependent on her for major life choices, then I guess you aren't losing much...maybe he'll grow up and call you, or maybe she'll pass away and he'll 'graduate' to adulthood and call you,. Or maybe you can
move forward in your life regardless of whether he calls you. But you will have to let some of this stuff slide off your back like water on a duck.
I think your real fear, which is universal and makes sense, is that you let a guy into your heart and he rejected you, and therefore, something must be wrong with you. But is that really true?
Were you human? I mean, Did you have flaws, some of which were changeable? You did??? Okay, so you change those flaws that you want to change b/c YOU want to (which means marriage to you NOW would be different and better than before, which is good--because if your m is going to be the same as before, why would he want back in? Why would you?) It has to be different. Which means you have to be. Okay so you're human and you had some flaws and you are working on them...fine. That's done. Next...
OR the flaws he claims are not even valid, in which case you know his data isn't real so it cannot matter to you. Chalk it up to the "earth is flat & you're a purple lesbian frog" rumors and let it go. Reality will catch up with him in time. For most of us, it's a combination of real flaws or traits that we decide to change some of, and BS stuff they convince themeslves of to justify leaving. There's not a lot to do with that but stay calm and do the opposite of. You can't spend emotional energy on it for sure. It usually backfires anyway.
The more you argue with his choices, the more he'll defend them. The more you worry about what his mother thinks/says/does, the worse for you.
I know you think your sitch is 1 in a mllion but that's b/c most people thought your h was having an A with his mother, which is what your screen name implies.I realize it wasn't that way but that your mil was a bad factor in the m. Well, I had a similar issue with my late mil. She was not a stable woman and I was often the target of her illness and anger. She blamed me for some non events and for ANY troubles between her sons. She even blamed me for her mother, the 96 y/o grump for making our infant son cry at the time. As if I had coached him....huge scenes..But When she got cancer I went out with my d21 to assist her with chemo and help her to die with dignity. She came out to our home where I cared for her almost 24/7 and She did die with dignity. I rose to the occasion and have no regrets. There was no awareness on her end and no apology. I'm fine with that. She's gone now. Your mil won't be around forever so it's sad if your h "obeys" her at this stage of life.
I don't think your sitch is very unusual at all. MANY inlaws are not helpful in these situations. Many of them are poor dysfuntional influences in their adult children's lives, OR are trying to repair bad R's they had with their children & see supporing their choice to leave as now being "supportive"...)
What I never found in any of your posts are reasons he gives for leaving. What is it that he feels is missing in the m? What would HE say are the reasons he's leaving or what he'd like to see change in you? Is there any validity to any of what he says? If so, what are you doing to change those things?
If not, so be it. Then It's his journey and there's nothing you can do to steer him a certain way.
So you're facing the question of whether You do have flaws b/c you're not Mother Teresa (and hey,she wasn't perfect. She wasn't very sexy). But there are also likely to be pieces missing, or false claims of fault, that are all your h's responsibility. For those parts, which may be the bulk, you do have to let go. I mean, my h went nuts for living on the tundra where he was convinced he'd earn gazillions of dollars and we all would love it there, and we'd "see the light" etc. None of us wanted to return there, as we'd live there previously and only h had liked it. There was nothing I could say or do to show him that it wasn't going to go as he thought. He put his wants ahead of all ours and ahead of our family and at one point I asked him if he understood that this was essentially going to threaten our family for a JOB...to which he said "I'm willing to take the chance of losing our family for this job". To this day he has NO recall of saying that and I believe him. Strange, but true.
His mother of course would never dream of saying he was being selfish or being odd. He seemed to need to go and could not or would not be stopped, So he did go and I stayed with our children. And he wasn't right. And it did not turn out the way he hoped at all. And he did a lot of R damage and financial damage, and it is taking a long time to recover from that and I cannot say the Rs with our kids are all repaired, but he's working on it.
My mil was glad he returned but never expressed regret about her own commentary. It would never occur to her that she helped him to do the damage he did. She didn't protect her only grandchildren and sadly, at her funeral, our older children gave eulogies in which they both admitted they did not know her well. This shocked my h. THAT SHOCKED ME...(I mean, how could he think they were close?? But I digress).
My point is that inlaws are all around and we deal with them well, or half decently, or we move away (yep, done that!) or they die (eventually it happens) or we set healthy boundaries. Without some real details, I can't offer specific advice on that but maybe you'll be comfortable with a mc or a DB coach and can tell them. They're really very good. Also, fwiw, I have 2 family members who divorced and remarried their exes, so it happens.
Change what you can. Be the best you can, (as in, BE A WOMAN ONLY A FOOL WOULD LEAVE), and leave the results up to the big guy.
Good luck,
j
25, before i reply .. did you read my original (huge) thread? i just wanted to know before i give a big reply.
D.
I relate to the cave story. When I was pregnant with my baby, I needed to retreat into the cave to have her in peace and security. Instead of being outside bringing down lions so we could feast and live well, my WH was playing with the lions (OW). I felt incredibly insecure!!
Now, I don't think you will find that surprising - nothing weird about feeling insecure when you are pregnant and being left by your husband - but it made me realise how much I needed my man to be.. a man! And I am a feminist, and I am very capable and independent. But we need our men to be there for us. I remember crying to WH, "But I need you to protect me and our unborn child! Why aren't you protecting us?".
He must have thought I was pathetic.
piano
I recall your sitch and think it strikes us as women, at our very core. We're physically vulnerable, heavier than we've ever been so even though there may be a "glow" about us, we feel unattractive and very easily threatened. And he cheated. OUCH...and he missed out on the birth & newborn time as he was far away, so there was NO ONE coming back to the cave while you had to keep the baby safe. I think there's a lot to be said about our primal needs. And yeah, I'm a feminist. How are you now? Sorry for the hijack
25, before i reply .. did you read my original (huge) thread? i just wanted to know before i give a big reply.
D.
Read your earliest posts in March of this year, then off and on to now. Is there more or were there more before March?
D4,
Try saying what you think your h would claim was wrong in the M, then whether you agreed with any of it, and what you are doing about that and about GAL. What 180's are you practicing, if any? How are you different now than before? What do you want from this day forward, for your life?
j-
Try saying what you think your h would claim was wrong in the M, then whether you agreed with any of it, and what you are doing about that and about GAL.
1. spending differences. i'm a saver, he's a lavish spender. i don't dictate how he spends his money but i would speak up if i felt it was going overboard. he would redecorate the entire house when his parents were about to visit us. every piece of furniture wasn't about us decorating OUR home. he admitted that he tried to make the house look nice for his parents. my money went towards things like bills, food, retirement contributions, and activities. so in the end, it looks like i didn't buy anything - i couldn't point to something and say "i bought that". that's how he ended up walking away with everything. and i walked away with an empty bag.
he once came to me and asked me to borrow a large sum of money from our emergency fund (my account). this was for his retirement contribution. i declined stating that it wasn't an emergency. he knew he had to do this yet did not budget for it. it is called responsibility. i do not enable financial irresponsibility. i had a boundary and i enforced it.
in the end, it was the smartest move i made. because if i gave him that money and he asked for the d, i wouldn't have gotten that money back from him.
have i done anything to change this? i have purchased some new clothes, but i had to set up my own apartment and i needed the basics - plates, bowls, cutlery, glasses, mugs, etc. yes, i didn't get any of that when we moved.
i bought a nice tv and a nice mini oven - stuff i will use and keep long term. i prefer to invest money in long term pieces.
i eat healthy, i learn to spend my money on important things and i cut out any nice-to-haves. i'm disciplined that way.
2. he felt that he was dragging me through his life. when he was growing up, his mother would arrange summer camps and activities for him. he never had to think about what to do. somebody always did it for him. when we got married, i did that for us. he didn't bring anything to our marriage that was for 'us'. i don't understand how he was dragging me through his life. i often put my own needs aside to put a sock in his mouth to stop the whining.
have i done anything to change this?
- took a baking class
- joined a squash league
- joined the local chapter of toastmasters
- bought a home.
- looking forward to skiing for the first time this winter.
3. religion. i don't involve him in my religious practices. my religious practice takes 2 minutes twice a month. you barely even notice that i practice it. but when his parents arrive, he tells me to stop my religious practice because his parents wouldn't understand. i don't mutilate small animals. my practice involves lighting a candle and saying a 30 sec prayer. is that so odd? i should be free to practice my simple religion in my own home, no? i would be happy to answer questions regarding my practice if they ask but if they don't ask, then i assume it doesn't matter to them either way.
i've relaxed on my religion since.
4. intimacy. he claims it was neither a passion or priority of mine. i have to admit. when he treats me like crap, i don't want to be intimate with him. call it another boundary of mine. the thing is .. all i wanted was to feel close and intimate with my h. i loved him from day 1 and i still do. but i can't bring myself to engage in something that is so personal, emotional, and intimate with someone who just paid me the biggest insult (telling me that i wouldn't make a good mother). for me, intimacy is reserved for someone who i feel loves me.
have i done anything about this? not sure how one can prove this. i don't date around .. nor do i sleep around. but that doesn't stop me from buying nice underwear. i'm not wearing it for anybody but it makes me feel sexy .. that counts, right?
there was a fifth excuse but i don't remember what that was anymore.
What 180's are you practicing, if any?
i only realize recently what 180s are about. all along, i thought it was just about doing the opposite of things. but it's not. it's about thinking outside the box and doing something really different. still working on this.
How are you different now than before?
i'm a very angry person right now. i hope to change this.
i want to be a happier person. i think i've grown intellectually as a person .. it's weird to have so much free time now. i realize now how much of my time was consumed by my h. i got to learn new things.
What do you want from this day forward, for your life?
to be financially independent. i never want to be with another person again because usually people take more than they give to me. i just want some sense of security and it's not something that men are capable of providing. we live in a world that is ruled by hollywood celebrities. it's okay to cut and run when marriage is too hard. if i knew my h would cut and run, i wouldn't have married him. i took a risk and i'm paying for it in many ways.
Try saying what you think your h would claim was wrong in the M, then whether you agreed with any of it, and what you are doing about that and about GAL.
1. spending differences. i'm a saver, he's a lavish spender.
Total judgementalsim here. Do you know what I mean by that?
i don't dictate how he spends his money but i would speak up if i felt it was going overboard.
Calling it "lavish" means you judged most of it and my guess is your disapproval was clear. What could you two do together to meet HIS needs for a beautiful home and your need for financial security? That is a very common challenge for married couples. It's called balance and requires compromise. Perhaps that would have been a 180.
he would redecorate the entire house when his parents were about to visit us.
every piece of furniture wasn't about us decorating OUR home.
You two did not discuss any of this together? I think shopping together for furniture you both like would have been such a loving opportunity for bonding and pride in the home. Just one way to look at it.
he
admitted that he tried to make the house look nice for his parents.
Is there something wrong with that? I don't get why your money wasn't combined. You say YOUR money went to bills, as if to say his would not have? Really? He'd have charged it all on a credit card and not paid it off or there'd be no food or electricity if it werent' for your money? I don't know couples married for years who have their money so clearly separated and defined, as if there's an expectation that one would leave the other.
my money went towards things like bills, food, retirement contributions, and activities. so in the end, it looks like i didn't buy anything - i couldn't point to something and say "i bought that". that's how he ended up walking away with everything. and i walked away with an empty bag.
By your own description, your money did not go to anything but utilities and retirement. Had your resources been combined, maybe you'd have some furniture.he once came to me and asked me to borrow a large sum of money from our emergency fund (my account). this was for his retirement contribution. i declined stating that it wasn't an emergency. he knew he had to do this yet did not budget for it. it is called responsibility. i do not enable financial irresponsibility. i had a boundary and i enforced it. I have a 2 x 4 for you and hey, you are free to ignore it...Put a helmet on. Um you don't see how very "parental" this was of you? Or how punitive of you? Don't you realize how what it must have taken for him to come to you to ASK his own wife for HER money so HE can put some in a retirement account? And how wounded his pride must have been when you "spanked" him for disobeying your rules. Gee, You sure showed him.
And couldn't he say HE provided a lovely home for you both that ONLY HE created, b/c you were too selfish or stingy or financially paranoid/ to spend a cent helping to make a beautiful home? Couldn't he argue that you forced him to deny himself nice things? Or that if something weren't a priority to YOU, then it wasn't a priority to the R? AND couldn't he also say that instead of gratitude from you for his providing a beautiful home, which you refused to help WITH him, and then when he wanted to do something smart like invest in a retirement account, you punished him by witholding YOUR "emergency" funds that were ALL somehow YOURS?...and now, w/the benefit of time and reflection, do you have any insight into how this must have made him feel?
in the end, it was the smartest move i made. because if i gave him that money and he asked for the d, i wouldn't have gotten that money back from him.
Really? Maybe If you had combined funds and been a team like most married couples, you'd have bonded by building something together. At least you'd both have some retirement funds AND furniture and some memories of a beautiful home, instead of drawing lines around the home and measuring every cent and keeping a scorecard. My overall impression when reading your post was "scorecard keeping" and rigidity on your end. That may have infected him too. have i done anything to change this? i have purchased some new clothes, but i had to set up my own apartment and i needed the basics - plates, bowls, cutlery, glasses, mugs, etc. yes, i didn't get any of that when we moved.
i bought a nice tv and a nice mini oven - stuff i will use and keep long term. i prefer to invest money in long term pieces.
Did you buy any long term pieces when you were together? Did you discuss it? Did you budge at all?i eat healthy, i learn to spend my money on important things and i cut out any nice-to-haves. i'm disciplined that way.
are you happy?
2. he felt that he was dragging me through his life. when he was growing up, his mother would arrange summer camps and activities for him. he never had to think about what to do. somebody always did it for him. when we got married, i did that for us. he didn't bring anything to our marriage that was for 'us'. i don't understand how he was dragging me through his life.
i often put my own needs aside to put a sock in his mouth to stop the whining.What did you give up? And I don't know what you mean by him dragging you thru his life or how he did not bring anything to your marriage for both of you when you make it abundantly clear what's yours is yours and what's his is his. There was no "us" or "we" in your post or marital history description. Not to me anyhow.have i done anything to change this?
- took a baking class
- joined a squash league
- joined the local chapter of toastmasters
- bought a home.
- looking forward to skiing for the first time this winter.
ANYTHING MORE PERSONAL LIKE COUNSELLING?
3. religion.
i don't involve him in my religious practices. Too bad. It's Another lost opportunity for bonding or sharing at an intimate level. my religious practice takes 2 minutes twice a month. you barely even notice that i practice it.
Um, then what's the point?
but when his parents arrive, he tells me to stop my religious practice because his parents wouldn't understand.
But I bet you insisted on another "important" boundary and did it so they'd know, right? Another way to force him to choose between instead of having both... i don't mutilate small animals. my practice involves lighting a candle and saying a 30 sec prayer. is that so odd? i should be free to practice my simple religion in my own home, no? i would be happy to answer questions regarding my practice if they ask
but if they don't ask, then i assume it doesn't matter to them either way.Did it?i've relaxed on my religion since.
Why? If it's 2 min a day, and it's not noticeable, what's to relax?
4. intimacy. he claims it was neither a passion or priority of mine. i have to admit.
when he treats me like crap, i don't want to be intimate with him. call it another boundary of mine. the thing is .. all i wanted was to feel close and intimate with my h. i loved him from day 1 and i still do. but i can't bring myself to engage in something that is so personal, emotional, and intimate with someone who just paid me the biggest insult (telling me that i wouldn't make a good mother). for me, intimacy is reserved for someone who i feel loves me.
So you witheld sex from him when your feelings were hurt? I get that. This is a common thing and there are lots of reasons for it. If someone insults you or is abusive, NO WOMAN feels "in the mood" then. But sex IS intimacy for most men, and if a man apologizes or expresses regret for hurting you OR if time has elapsed, then witholding is simply punitive. And you know what? No man returns to the "greatest sex he NEVER had"...in other words, witholding intimcay and passion is sad and it backfires big time. Pick battles wisely. Sounds as if you denied both of you so much.
not sure how one can prove this. i don't date around .. nor do i sleep around. but that doesn't stop me from buying nice underwear. i'm not wearing it for anybody but it makes me feel sexy .. that counts, right?
there was a fifth excuse but i don't remember what that was anymore.
What 180's are you practicing, if any?
i only realize recently what 180s are about. all along, i thought it was just about doing the opposite of things. but it's not. it's about thinking outside the box and doing something really different. still working on this.
How are you different now than before?
i want to be a happier person.
You'll have to change the angry part, won't you? Do you see how you are the only person who can change this? Do you believe that?
i think i've grown intellectually as a person .. it's weird to have so much free time now. i realize now how much of my time was consumed by my h. i got to learn new things.
What do you want from this day forward, for your life?
Wow, really? Like who? And I don't buy that. But if this is what you want, it is a recipe for loneliess and for the life of me, why come here if that's what you want? B/C it's not what you want. You're simply terrified of being hurt again, like all of us. I'm no shrink, but to me, a lot of your behaviors were sort of gearing toward making him leave you. Why would you sabatage your m so many ways? i just want some sense of security and it's not something that men are capable of providing.
Oh good grief. NO MAN CAN OR SHOULD Provide us with that, when it is WE who give ourselves our own security. Our h's kill bugs for us and check out the weird noises for us, but in modern life we are PARTNERS...we have to show up for each other. we live in a world that is ruled by hollywood celebrities.
You're globalizing the problem to avoid looking at your own personal sitch.
This is not a political debate. Make this about you and your personal work and not so much "out there" stuff...you'll grow and learn faster.
it's okay to cut and run when marriage is too hard. if i knew my h would cut and run, i wouldn't have married him.
i took a risk and i'm paying for it in many ways.
thanks 25. you made me look at my m in a different light. i don't think i'd save it because i wasn't a great wife. i deserved to be left behind.
the best thing i can do right now, is to tell my lawyer to give my h my share of the house money. yes, i contributed to the home. but the damage i did .. he should get all of it, including the contents.
i should apologize to his mother and father. and also repay them for the wedding expenses they incurred.
i guess i thought i was doing the right thing but maybe not.
You'll have to change the angry part, won't you? Do you see how you are the only person who can change this? Do you believe that?
yes, the anger has suddenly turned to depression. i don't deserve to live.
Wow, really? Like who? And I don't buy that. But if this is what you want, it is a recipe for loneliess and for the life of me, why come here if that's what you want? B/C it's not what you want. You're simply terrified of being hurt again, like all of us. I'm no shrink, but to me, a lot of your behaviors were sort of gearing toward making him leave you. Why would you sabatage your m so many ways?
because i don't deserve anybody.
i'm such a horrible person. it's all my fault.
Oh good grief. NO MAN CAN OR SHOULD Provide us with that, when it is WE who give ourselves our own security. Our h's kill bugs for us and check out the weird noises for us, but in modern life we are PARTNERS...we have to show up for each other.
really? my h said that he'd be there for me if i was dying in a hospital. but otherwise, i'm on my own.
Sorry for the 2 x 4 but I think you are playing the victim and doing as little serious introspection as possible. When you start to get close to an issue of REAL intimacy or deeply painful ones, you redirect the discussion and make it political or you simply totally blame him. BTW, where's the MIL in all this? Do you see your h at all?
my head is in a bit of a tizzy from the 2x4s .. my MIL is there. i don't want to re-live it.
i don't see my h at all. he left me. why would we see each other?
it looks like i have some serious issues to address. thanks for your input.
D4MIL
D4,
I honestly put a lot of effort into that post to you. But I cannot tell if you are being sarcastic or what. I simply never saw you take any genuine responsibility for the demise of your m except in minor superficial ways & then externalizing
& globalizing to "men in general" which keeps us from directing advice to you specifically. So when I point out possible ways your h might see things, you are either totally dismissing it or saying it's all true and now you're totally at fault. Let's avoid black & white 'all or nothing' scenarios, b/c they are not valid or helpful.
Assuming you are not being sarcastic, then stop berating yourself. Just learn from your mistakes b/c we ALL make them. I was no saint.
But if you don't learn and choose to make significant changes, you won't feel any safer in the future. You'll repeat the mistakes & be rejected again, OR shut yourself down emotionally and avoid rejection by having no one close to you. Both of those options suck.
There's no shame in needing help. I did seek it out & I thank God for that. But do Get help. If your claim about not deserving to live is a something you actually feel, get help sooner. Please.
you definitely helped me see things in a different light and thoroughly explained.
i did leave out details because i simply did not want to rehash everything from start to finish. i don't think it's healthy for me and my ic agrees. the marriage is over and we're trying to move forward. to go back and relive the situation is not helpful at this point.
i believe both sides made errors. i know i have said things that i should not have said. but i cannot take the back at this point.
you can 2x4 me on the home front as much as you'd like. but that wasn't even the complete story. i chose to give a 'all my fault' answer to avoid going back and forth on this.
i honestly do not want to relive the past. i admit i have said some extremely hurtful things to him. we both did to each other. life was better when we were just dating and parents weren't so involved. as soon as parents entered the picture, it wasn't the same.
i want to thank you for your candid feedback. you indeed gave me something more to think about. i will try to work on those things but a future relationship will not be in the cards.
the only man i ever planned on being married to is my h. i don't plan on marrying again. i've never been one to date around - it was one of the things he respected about me. i am in counselling and will likely be in counselling for a while. but i rather be alone than to be dating so i can say i have someone.
D4MIL
I'm glad you are in counselling. There are some personal growth workshops that are sometimes even more effective than IC only b/c they are more "efficient" in that you can plow through issues without having to go back to work right as you dig deep enough into something. Just a thought. I did a serious workshop years ago that came in very handy for my career and later on, for my marital "challenge". Later, my h attended it as well and then we went together. Very useful and quite profound. Similarly, if your h shows any interest, try Retrovaille. That was also similarly profound and helped seal the deal with our reconciliation.
I hope you won't fall on your sword too much or go from one extreme to the other. Maybe you married the wrong guy or for the wrong reasons, who knows? Of course you both made mistakes.
Give yourself time and learn about yourself without all the judgement. I mean, the same harsh tone I found in your post about your marriage and men in general, is also the tone you used with yourself in the next post. There's an unforgiving aspect to this that you might want to drop altogether. If you've got some "big issues" to work on, work on them. I heard a therapist say "If a problem is being worked on, it's a problem solved...move on." So give yourself (and the world), a break.
We're all living with our inner demons and struggles and are fighting our own private battles.
Good luck,
journaling ..
it's friday and the last post just re-opened the wounds that were in the process of healing. i feel tense, anger, sadness, and depressed.
i have the entire weekend now to run away from the intense hurt that has taken over my body. i'm going to try and play squash tonight.
the last few posts were not helpful in my healing. the advice would have been welcomed six months ago but i'm nearing the final days of separation. issuing a 2x4 now would be like giving the dead horse one last kick just for good measure. i don't need one last kick - i'm already dead.
the timing of the post was very bad as i had just had my ic session and my next one isn't scheduled for another 1.5 weeks. thank goodness for crisis lines. i'm sure they will be hearing from me tonight.
i expected to be in better shape after 10 months but i'm really no better than i was. i've started to GAL and look into myself and where i went wrong. my demons were my words. when you're on my good side, i'm sweet as pie. when you're on my bad side, i have a way with words that would cut you right to the core. that's because i listen, observe, and remember. i know what you like and i know what you don't like.
the lesson i learned was you don't make your point by doing the wrong thing and hoping the other person sees your point. if he leaves his socks around, doing the same (or leaving 10x the amount of socks around) isn't the right way to prove your point that leaving socks all over the place makes for a messy room.
careful how you choose your words - once words have been said, you can't take them back. and it is almost impossible to undo.
i keep score without knowing it. when you say one thing, i expect you to back it up with action. if you don't, it gets filed under the lack of integrity folder. when he tells me that i need to put him first, and he doesn't do the same .. i give him chances and when i don't see any improvement, it gets filed under 'lack of integrity'. when he tells me that i never finish the job, and then goes and does the same himself.
i actually wasn't like this during the marriage. and i never got to say any of this to him. there was so much unsaid things on my end .. so many unsent letters i wrote, telling him how unhappy i was. how i could not say i love you after our first year of marriage. i wrote your typical WAW letter. but i wasn't running away to have an affair. i ran away to get away from feeling neglected by my h. i don't want to be a home where i'm invisible to my h.
at this time, there is no point.
D4MIL
part 2 .. journaling ..
i always get a weird feeling when others read my thread and realize what a nut case i am.
my body is still tense so i booked a 30 min massage to help get rid of the tension before the weekend begins.
my body is still tense so i booked a 30 min massage to help get rid of the tension before the weekend begins.
Oddly, even the idea of a massage has the opposite effect on me: I get tense thinking about it.
Of course, that probably could be fixed by the "right" masseuse
I don't think you're a nut case. You sound intelligent and very angry and very wounded. Given what else you said above, I'm not sure there's anything for me to say.
I guess my question for you is, how can we help you now?
my massage went from 30 mins to 60 mins.
masseuse said i was really tense in the upper back, shoulders, and neck.
the masseuse recommended a follow up appointment on tuesday.
wow .. i haven't had a massage in 2 yrs.
I guess my question for you is, how can we help you now?
here's the thing .. my jekyll and hyde thing cycles with that time of the month. my pms has never been this bad. it seemed to have magnified after the d-bomb. it's like all of this pent up anger just exploded out of me.
i was never vocal during our m - always careful not to say anything i would regret. but after the d-bomb, i spew whatever i want because i don't know you and you don't know me from adam .. and it's a form of release for me. i get to be the crazy woman .. i get the freedom to speak my mind and get it off my chest. i can use whatever language/words i want .. and it never goes back to my h. unless he reads this.
i say this all the time but it really has to stop. i need to practice full NC. no indirect contact either. i have to simply work on me. my focus is totally off .. which has led to me 'spider webbing' when i talk .. i can't stay on a subject. my ic has tried to get me to practice mindfulness so i can focus.
there is still legal work to be done. and i'm just preparing myself for when the papers are served. i want to be 'okay' when it happens and when i sign the final documents to say it's completely dissolved.
D4MIL
why the no contact if you still love him? What is the status of OW?
Would your marriage to him today, be the same as it was before? Are you saying you don't want the marriage at all OR you fear a reconciliation b/c you don't trust it? Ideally in your best dreams, would you have a recon AND a "restoration" of the marriage, meaning, a healthy m?
Or do you want to be done and if so, why? Do you know?
I don't take what you say personally b/c as you said, we don't know each other.
You seem to want to vent, so vent.
But again, what is it that we can do to help you?
why the no contact if you still love him? What is the status of OW?
i'm always looking for that smoking gun (ie. OW). i have yet to find it but i keep looking <- obsession. not good.
someone else asked me why am i doing no contact when there is nobody else involved.
well, i guess i do it because he said we needed to move on. "we have to sell the house so we can both move on". ok. when we moved into the same building, he would still say hi or wave to me on the rare occasions that we ran into each other. i wouldn't acknowledge him - didn't he say i had to move on?
at the same time, why do i want to be nice to someone who no longer wants to be married to me? talking to him would be like me still pining for him. that would also make me very unattractive (see gucci posts).
he wants to lead this mission to d. i'm not going to stand in his way. but i won't help him move it along. i will protect what's dear to me but otherwise, he's free to take and do whatever he wants. he's leading this .. not me. but i'm near the 'fed up' stage because it's getting dragged out for no good reason.
Would your marriage to him today, be the same as it was before?
it would definitely be different because there is a lot of hurt on both sides. trust has been broken.
Are you saying you don't want the marriage at all OR you fear a reconciliation b/c you don't trust it?
option B - 100%. i don't know if i could trust him. he suspect that he tried to lock me out of the house so he can claim the entire house due to abandonment. he had gone into my room while i was not home and took some personal items of mine. and when i discovered it, he told me he thought i had given them to him as 'something to remember me by'. why the hell would i do that for someone who clearly told me that he was no longer in love me and that it was a mistake to marry me and that the longer he stayed married to me, he was going to die? riiiiight. stealing from my room while i was out?
i love what he used to be. i stuck with the marriage despite wanting out after the first year. i allowed him to cross a boundary without consequences. he asked me to put him first and i did. i needed him to put me first as well, and i wasn't. i watched him put everything else ahead of me.
i would still rather work on this marriage than to marry someone else. but it gets harder and harder for me to want to fight for my marriage if i keep reliving the past because then that's all i'll remember of him. i just regurgitate the "why this happened" and that's all i remember - the bad times.
that's why i hate rehashing the past. it starts to cloud the good times. and all i feel is anger and i get stuck in a negative place.
i want a healthy m. i always felt that he was the person who would be able to keep up with me. where he was weak, i was strong. where he was strong, i was weak. i was independent enough that i didn't need him to "kill the bugs for me" and i took on tasks when i knew he was busy. mowing the lawn is probably the only thing that's *his* thing. i'm just not good at mowing the lawn and the lawn mower is really heavy. so in return, i clean the toilets, shower stall, and i take the garbage/recycling out. it's all give and take sometimes. and it worked for us. i make the car appointments for him .. but i don't take his car in because i don't drive a stick (i so wish i could though). i take my own car in to the shop .. most wives i know, their husbands do it for them. i don't need my h to do these things for me. i make him breakfast when he has an early morning call. in our world, there is no "this is your job and only you do it". we both know how to cook well - i know some things better than he does, and he knows some things better than me.
my family used to look at us and say that when they watch Amazing Race, they envision my h and i .. we're great partners that way. we played tennis together - we took great pride in beating two guys at doubles tennis. we played ultimate frisbee together. i used to be girly and now i'm just as athletic as he is .. and he says how proud of me he is for toughing it out.
he got used to watching my tv shows and i got into football, hockey, and basketball. i don't just smile and nod .. i know the rules, the players, the teams, etc. i made a real effort to learn it. i think i scream louder at the hockey games than he does.
we had both shared a love for trivia. kept our minds sharp. every once in a while, i'd throw in a 'blonde' answer to make him laugh. we used to laugh a lot.
notice how all of these things didn't involve his parents? those were the good times. his mother hated that my h, my fil, and i would work on trivia puzzles in the morning paper. she wanted me to be "into" her stuff .. like knitting, bleach, and hand sanitizers. she was a germiphobe. you could never relax when we were at her home. you couldn't sit there and enjoy the paper. if you weren't santizing your hands, you had to listen to her talk about all the things she plans on leaving to us when she dies. not an uplifting conversation. she uses death to manipulate my h. his father is going to die so spend more time with him. his father is fine. but she's got this thing in her head that he's going to "bite the big one". and she uses that phrase a lot. she reminds my h that he's going to die too. he's just like his grandfather .. who btw, died at 42. constantly reminds him of this. she has her own husband thinking about death as well. she uses death as an excuse to be closer to her son .. she's trying to protect him and that's she's only looking out for his best interest .. unlike me, his wife. it got to the point where she tried to control our lives with her hypervigilance. she wouldn't allow us to drive because a snowstorm is headed your way. she'd sit at home and cry and cry until you told her you wouldn't drive. she screams when you drive over a speed bump like the car is on a head on collision. the woman needs to relax. she'd cry at christmas dinner every year - because this could be our last family christmas dinner together.. her h was living on borrowed time and what if he "bites the big one" before next christmas? here's a gun .. shoot yourself and put yourself (and us) out of this misery.
just took my happy husband and made him a depressed man who thinks he's going to die. that's why when he dropped the d-bomb, he said that in order to save himself, he had to hurt the one that he loved. he feared that staying married to me, he was going to die.
you know, the great mickey mantle thought he would never live beyond his 40s because of his family history. he lived it up, smoked, drank, ate unhealthy. he lived into his 60s and said .. had he known he'd live this long, he would have taken better care of himself. i don't want my h to go through this .. thinking that he might die in a few years. i want him to live long and be happy .. with me.
why would you as a mother instill that kind of fear in your son? that's child abuse.
in order for me to have a healthy m .. the whole death thing would have to go. i can't have my h constantly think about when he's going to die. is that even possible to achieve?
the reason why i suck at db-ing is because a lot of this is a choice you make. i can GAL, 180, go dark, self-assessment. but will he ever look at my life and say "i want to be a part of that"? it doesn't change the fact that they are pre-occupied with death and that he is being summoned back to the "mother"ship. i feel like the OW in this distorted relationship. his real w is his mother.
But again, what is it that we can do to help you?
i need to bring myself back to a normal state. i need to make sure that when that time of the month rolls around, i gotta be prepared .. otherwise, i spiral out of control. i have to stop the stalking. just tell me that he's not seeing anyone and i'll be ok. don't say "even if he is seeing someone, you have no control over it". that doesn't help me either. lie if you have to .. because the point is really just to get through this. m or no m.
distract me if you can. i need to focus on something other than the sitch.
hopefully when i go into sign the d papers or when they are served to me, i will be ready.
yeesh .. that was a mouthful.
D4MIL
i'm going to try something in each of these categories.
relax - the massage was my relaxation. i have another one booked next friday.
eat - i'm eating again. my friends took me out for my first shawarma last week. yummm .. they made me order the platter. :P
think - trying not to think too much
act normal - trying to do this too - slowly getting there.
react .. smartly - failed this so far but we'll see.
do something different - halloween party tonight night. never been to one, will go.
emulate - not sure what this means or involves.
do work - if i knew what it was, i'd try it.
i'm going down the list.
i have a little story to tell.
in my leadership course, one of the instructors usually gives a talk at the end of the class. this week, the talk was about what a smile can do. how a smile can change someone's day.
it reminded me that four months ago, you told me to start smiling and see what affect it has on others. it is true. when i stop smiling, the world stop smiling back. when i smile at others, they smile too and it brings people towards you.
today, someone came into the elevator. <big smile, dumped>. and i engaged in a conversation with him about the weather - it was actually snowing outside!!
i am also beginning to see the stop, drop, and roll analogy. i feel as though you are telling me that i know what the answer to my problem is .. but i keep thinking about it and i don't know what the answer to my problem is.
i need to make a real conscious effort .. not this yo-yo of "oh woe is me" to "i'm gonna make him pay" attitude.
i don't want any of this to have to do with my stbxh though.
for some reason, i think he's got a PI on me to accumulate evidence that i'm stalking (he's doing it to get a restraining order on me). i am very suspicious wherever i go.
that's also part of the reason why i haven't engaged in any conversation with him. i am actually afraid that he will view any contact that i have as 'stalking'. i need to save the conversation stuff when it is truly needed. otherwise, stay away .. or he'll slap a restraining order on me. pls don't make me do anything that will look like stalking. if i get a restraining order on me .. that's game over. no chance of ever being friends.
anyway, i took a pilates class today. i feel good. body is still in good shape. need to up the GAL a bit more. my masseuse told me to go out and not stay at home. tomorrow, i will do some grocery shopping and then maybe hit the gym for a weight training class.
i think i found my potential "vacation" - to go skiing. it will also help with my focusing (ie. gotta stay sharp so i don't hit a tree?).
i've also started trading equities. something i've never done before. i watch, monitor and observe. so far, i'm doing fairly well. nothing big but not bad.
D4MIL
journaling ..
so much for not posting here that often.
the halloween party was amazing. i didn't dress up but it was pretty classy. it was held at the presidential suite of a hotel. everyone from the squash club was there - most of them were way younger than i. but i didn't care. i met a lot of others from the club whom i have never spoken to before.
the party was catered, with bottle service, a guy doing caricatures of the guests, and really nice prizes for the games. the guy went all out for this party. a guy dressed as a cowboy started chatting me up - he said he has seen me at the squash club. i didn't know who he was. my friends were good "wing people" - they tried to rescue me from the 'cowboy'.
i didn't drink too much that night. i didn't eat much so i had a 1/4 shot of ciroc vodka and OJ. i'm just not a shots kinda girl. but y'know what? i tried it .. normally, i wouldn't but i did it just to do something that i wouldn't normally do. however, i did "pay" for it later .. cuz alcohol just makes me burn up. i felt my head get hot and red .. my throat starts to feel like it's being tightened. a few more glasses of plain OJ and i'm good.
i didn't get home until 4:30 am this morning. i went to bed at 4:50 am and woke up at 10 am. had breakfast and then went to squash at the local college campus.
my body hurts from pilates but it's a good hurt. i tried to focus on the breathing exercises that is part of each pose.
i made a healthy dinner tonight. and i have leftovers for lunch tomorrow.
i need to get some sleep though.
D4MIL
i'm going to try something in each of these categories.
relax - the massage was my relaxation. i have another one booked next friday.
eat - i'm eating again. my friends took me out for my first shawarma last week. yummm .. they made me order the platter. :P
think - trying not to think too much
It's good to avoid "paralysis by analysis". And my guess based on your posts, is that most of your thinking gets negative when it comes to your h, and the mind reading is also counter productive. So, good for you. Relax, put a "Stop Sign" in front of you next time you find yourself veering off course.act normal - trying to do this too - slowly getting there.
Not sure what you mean by this. Can you elaborate? What do you do that isn't normal, other than the over thinking? Do you have friends who are "normal" or some examples in your life?
react .. smartly - failed this so far but we'll see.
Meaning what? You want to change behaviors? Do you see how vague this is? It's so vague it's hard to comment upon but perhaps that is a goal of yours. I mean, journalling is fine but if you want feedback, you have to be able to take it, and you have to provide enough specifics that we can offer something of use.do something different - halloween party tonight night. never been to one, will go.
GLad you went. It was different and it didn't kill you. Yay.
emulate - not sure what this means or involves.
Find someone you can use as a mentor and then act more like them in some way you admire or need to do more of. When I was a kid I had to use a character on a TV show b/c I didn't have a role model in real life until I was 14.
do work - if i knew what it was, i'd try it.
The "work"... that's the part of this process that yields real growth and change. That is what this is really ALL about. The part that requires true bravery. The work that means you peel back your layers, like an onion, and look deep inside to fix what needs fixing and to nurture your soul. Underneath all those layers is NOT a monster. The work is where you care for yourself and accept yourself in a way you may never have done before. It's facing yourself in all your glory, warts and all, and still loving you. Seeing yourself through God's eyes, if only for a minute. Staring boldly at what isn't so pretty and working on it AND forgiving yourself for what isn't acceptable, AND changing it.
If forgiveness is foreign to you, or too hard, it will prevent you from looking within - b/c all of us have dark shadows we have to work on AND LET GO OF< but if we're so unforgiving with ourselves (and others) we'll never face the tough stuff. And we'll stay stuck, veering from one black and white view to another.
And letting go of the mistakes we ALL make AND learned from, accepting yourself and others with all their warts and all their glory, and learning about living happily, no matter what curve balls life throws at you.
Often, I notice that When you get "real feedback" you either go into the "I don't deserve to live" mode, which stops anyone from giving you feedback even if it's constructive for fear that you'll crumble, or you deflect by talking about generalizations about men or your mother in law, or some other relatively superficial comment about the M. It keeps you from looking within b/c you submit that it's all your fault, and therefore not worth trying to fix, OR it's MIL, the ex, a man's world, etc.
Your mil had issues for sure. She's a depressing kook. And? I mean, Mine was schizophrenic and violent and I was often the target of her episodes. As you admit, you had good times too and your h won't forget ALL of them. But this isn't a contest of MILs. Just means we deal with it. And after the detailed post you gave regarding what your h would say if he were posting, I still think your mil was relatively small factor b/c you yourself admit you two had issues quite apart from her. Why does this matter?
B/C when you refer to her and her behaviors, you are talking about something you can do nothing about and therefore you avoid "the work". If we are talking about you and h or your M or your behavior, then we're discussing something you CAN affect, but stop short of. Why? I think the real work is what you are avoiding.
You said your m would be different today than before, (but not better). Just words about trust being broken so it's a done deal. We know that. I'm talking about what you've learned about yourself and what you'd change. After all this pain, surely you would be a better w than before. I'd think so, but if so, how? If not, how tragic. Do you see why I say this? Do you discuss this with your IC?
i'm going down the list.
i have a little story to tell.
in my leadership course, one of the instructors usually gives a talk at the end of the class. this week, the talk was about what a smile can do. how a smile can change someone's day.
it reminded me that four months ago, you told me to start smiling and see what affect it has on others. it is true. when i stop smiling, the world stop smiling back. when i smile at others, they smile too and it brings people towards you.
today, someone came into the elevator. <big smile, dumped>. and i engaged in a conversation with him about the weather - it was actually snowing outside!!
Yes. It's also known as "get out of it what you put into it" and saying yes to the universe, and finding that the universe says "yes" right back at you, usually in exponential ways.
i am also beginning to see the stop, drop, and roll analogy. i feel as though you are telling me that i know what the answer to my problem is .. but i keep thinking about it and i don't know what the answer to my problem is.
i need to make a real conscious effort .. not this yo-yo of "oh woe is me" to "i'm gonna make him pay" attitude.
So, I guess, I take it you mean you won't see things so black and white, "all or nothing" anymore? Good. And yes you do have to make a conscious effort at this. None of it happens by accident. i don't want any of this to have to do with my stbxh though.
Whatever triggers the growth, as long as it's real growth, it's good.
for some reason, i think he's got a PI on me to accumulate evidence that i'm
stalking (he's doing it to get a restraining order on me). i am very suspicious wherever i go.Wow...Without knowing your history enough to know whether this is based on reality or your admitted overly suspicious nature, all I can wonder is if this is going to be helped by you trying to think more "Normally"? It does not sound normal, fyi. Sorry but it doesn't. Why would he think you are stalking him? And even if he gets a restraining order, how would that effect the property division? I don't think it would. Stalking him? Why? B/c you live in the same building? I found it odd, but Did he get a restraining order on you then, or do you simply fear he wants to?
If it's the latter, that's a whole lot of mind reading on your end. Saying you are "very suspicious wherever [you] go" sounds...extreme. And sad. And probably self inflicted. You said You've looked and looked for a "smoking gun" (ie OW) and have found none. Then Why keep looking? I mean What difference does it make now if your divorce can't be based on adultery? Isn't it possible you are looking for a reason NOT to try and reconcile? Just so I know, how'd he break the trust (other than wanting out of the M, b/c there's no OW and no lying that you've discussed here)? Also, You admit you acted as if the M was going to end prematurely, but never addressed whether there was an element of self fulfilling prophecy there, and you say you love him still. that's also part of the reason why i haven't engaged in any conversation with him. i am actually afraid that he will view any contact that i have as 'stalking'. i need to save the conversation stuff when it is truly needed. otherwise, stay away .. or he'll slap a restraining order on me.
pls don't make me do anything that will look like stalking. if i get a restraining order on me .. that's game over. no chance of ever being friends.
Who would "make" you do something that would look like stalking? May I assume something in the past leads you to worry about this that I simply didn't see in the posts, or are you totally over thinking this? "Slapping a restraining order" on you for merely contacting him isn't realistic. Either something is missing from the story, or you are doing some serious negative mind reading. I'd nip that in the bud. Have you tried personal growth OR post divorce workshops? IC is great but it can be fragmented b/c sometimes as you make a breakthrough, you have to go back to work or home, and workshops can be more 'efficient" in that regard. Just a thought. Good luck.
note: i did not proof read this so please excuse the typos.
think - trying not to think too much
It's good to avoid "paralysis by analysis". And my guess based on your posts, is that most of your thinking gets negative when it comes to your h, and the mind reading is also counter productive. So, good for you. Relax, put a "Stop Sign" in front of you next time you find yourself veering off course.
YES. i don't usually use capital letters but i had to use it there. i can get very imaginative .. in a negative way and it is not productive.
act normal - trying to do this too - slowly getting there.
Not sure what you mean by this. Can you elaborate? What do you do that isn't normal, other than the over thinking? Do you have friends who are "normal" or some examples in your life?
i have to be myself. not some crazy chick who just complains about her breakup.
react .. smartly - failed this so far but we'll see.
Meaning what? You want to change behaviors? Do you see how vague this is? It's so vague it's hard to comment upon but perhaps that is a goal of yours. I mean, journalling is fine but if you want feedback, you have to be able to take it, and you have to provide enough specifics that we can offer something of use.
every time i hear from my lawyer, i would react with emotion. that's because my lawyer heard from his lawyer and my h would be asking for something stupid and it would make me pissed. i would call up my lawyer and say "what the heck is he doing? blah blah blah!" .. if he's trying to get a reaction out of me, it would work every time.
my mom notices it too. every time i find out something about my h, i would react with a lot of emotion. when he switched lawyers and his new lawyer contacted my lawyer and said he wanted this dealt with quickly. i reacted emotionally. when his net worth statements came through and i saw that he was claiming my wedding ring, engagement ring, handbag, and wedding jewellery .. my heart sank. it makes me feel like naive. and i hate feeling that way. but it gets to me .. each and every time.
my lawyer knew i wanted to reconcile with my h. he gave me the opportunity to go talk to my h and say "hey, let's try to negotiate without our lawyers." my lawyer told me to gauge his response and this would determine if he was open to reconciliation or not. then i can walk away knowing i tried. my h and i stop talking to one another since july. on the rare occasion that i would see him, i would not acknowledge him. thinking .. you are dumping me. why would i even want to be friends with you? and i didn't want him to cake eat. and i'm so confused .. i want to reconcile but i want him to realize what he's missing by getting rid of me from his life. i know .. wrong approach .. but just explaining how confused my thought process was at the time.
do something different - halloween party tonight night. never been to one, will go. GLad you went. It was different and it didn't kill you. Yay.
it kinda killed me. i got home late and i'm still feeling the effects from saturday.
but no regrets in going.
emulate - not sure what this means or involves.
Find someone you can use as a mentor and then act more like them in some way you admire or need to do more of. When I was a kid I had to use a character on a TV show b/c I didn't have a role model in real life until I was 14.
there are so many people to choose from. i had stuck with dr. randy pausch and oprah. i can relate to dr. randy pausch because his lessons on life is in line with my morals and values. i listen to him and it's like my mom talking to me. oprah's stanford speech from 2008 taught me that in order to move forward, i have to give back.
do work - if i knew what it was, i'd try it.
The "work"... that's the part of this process that yields real growth and change. That is what this is really ALL about. The part that requires true bravery. The work that means you peel back your layers, like an onion, and look deep inside to fix what needs fixing and to nurture your soul. Underneath all those layers is NOT a monster. The work is where you care for yourself and accept yourself in a way you may never have done before. It's facing yourself in all your glory, warts and all, and still loving you. Seeing yourself through God's eyes, if only for a minute. Staring boldly at what isn't so pretty and working on it AND forgiving yourself for what isn't acceptable, AND changing it.
i know what needs to be fixed in me. i have given myself a long hard look in the mirror and this is what i've discovered.
knowing what i know about the breakdown of our marriage, part of it was because i felt like i had to follow the normal route that everyone else was taking. get married, buy a house, start a family. this is what everyone else was doing. and i tried to be what everyone else was like. i tried to want what everyone else wanted. i was ready to let myself go for the sake of having children. was it what i wanted? not necessarily but i felt like i couldn't say that i didn't want children for fear that others would think that there's something wrong with me. that i'm selfish for not wanting to have children.
i tried to be like my sisters. i tried to do the same things but it only made me unhappy. y'know, even now .. my mom says i'm 'different' from the rest of my siblings. and she makes it sound like it's a really bad thing. how am i different? i like to watch sports, i love history, i love trivia games, i love the discovery channel, i enjoy photography, i love learning new things, i make exercise a priority, i have taken an interest in fine wine .. and that makes me different. my sisters who are married have settled into their SAHM roles. they don't do the same things that i enjoy because their priorities are different. they have never been interested in learning the things i take an interest in. for me, learning keeps my brain sharp and the more things i know, the more well rounded i become as a person.
secondly, i harped on the gold digger label that my h gave me. i didn't like it because my entire life i felt like the cash cow. and to have someone call me a gold digger when i've always felt that others were digging me and i didn't even think to call others a gold digger .. it just hurt me. i grew up poor and i watched my dad be irresponsible with money. i saw how it made everyone feel scared because we didn't know how we were going to pay the bills. i swore that i would never let that happen to me. hence, i have always been one to keep an emergency fund well stocked. when i watch my h spend money like water and not save for his retirement, it reminds me of my dad's financial irresponsibility.
it ties in with why i don't like men claiming that women want financial security. the men in my life has never given me that sense of security before. i wanted to go to grad school but because my dad decided he didn't want to work any more, i had to give up grad school and i took a job i didn't like but paid fairly well. and i became the family breadwinner at 23 yrs old. i took care of everyone with my salary. my sister still remembers that i covered her tuition when she needed the money. i provided financial security to others. and deep down, i wanted that feeling of someone looking out for me. i am not looking for a sugardaddy .. i want someone to say that they have my back and really mean it. because i feel tremendous pressure to provide and hold things together for others. i just want a break from that job for a while - and i'm afraid to ask for it because i'm afraid the answer is no. they say you treat others the way you want to be treated. i take care of others the way i wish to be taken care of. when i married my h, i felt like he married me because he needed to delegate the crappy work to someone else so he wouldn't have to do it. he hated filing his personal documents, he hated calling the cable company if they screwed up our bill, he hated cleaning the toilets, folding laundry, cleaning the kitchen, taking the trash out, ironing, booking appointments, reading the fine print on contracts and documents, etc. by marrying me, anything he didn't want to do .. he would delegate to me. he wanted to buy a new car but didn't want to do the negotiating work - that was my job. he doesn't like negotiating for a better price because it would make him look cheap but it was okay for ME to look cheap. he wanted to go on vacation but he didn't want to do the research on where to go, how much it would cost, and booking the actual trip.
this leads into my third point .. and that is that one of the things i am most grateful for about my m is that my h taught me how to live. as mentioned above, i was the family breadwinner at 23. before that, i didn't have an allowance and didn't have any money. when i started working, most of my money went towards the family's needs. i saved but my parents had control over how i spent my money. i wanted things like a camera but wasn't allowed to spend my money on stuff that was deemed as 'nice-to-haves'. mind you, i told you that my mom says i'm different and sees it as a bad thing. well, me wanting a camera to pursue my hobby of photography was not well received. it's a waste of money. i grew up not having any hobbies because it cost money. after i got married, my h did encourage me to pursue my love of photography. he bought me my first DSLR. (just so you know, i spent a fortune on his hobby as well - majority of his wine glasses were given to him as gifts from me. i wouldn't want you think this was a one-sided relationship).
lastly, sex is a huge issue with me. i know you've read that it's due to my father calling me a whore when i first started to date my h. and it has had an impact on me. sex is a big deal to me. i don't take it lightly. it's like giving someone a part of me. sex only feels right when i feel connected to my h and that there is deep trust and real love there. my h said that sex was neither a passion or a priority of mine. after our first anniversary, i got a chance to reflect on what that first year was like and i felt that he didn't marry me because he loved me - but because i was that person to offload the crap work on to. he didn't need a wife. he needed a maid who moonlighted as a sex worker. and that wasn't the job i wanted when i married him. i have needs too. i pick up the slack for him but my needs weren't being met. i need to know that i'm #1 to him. and time and time again, i didn't feel that i was #1. and therefore, i lost that deep trust and love connection towards him. sex was just an act and i don't do that. my need is that in order for me to have sex, i need that deep trust and love connection. when i don't feel it, i won't give myself to my h. i don't care if his balls are blue .. i don't give myself to someone who insults me or treats me like a doormat.
sex is a priority for me now. and it's not because i want to have children or anything like that. i want that feeling of being loved by someone .. to be able to give myself to someone who i fully trust and love .. and it's reciprocated .. i want that. i didn't feel it with my h but i really wanted to. i wanted him to love me and have that connection with me but he chose his parents time and time again.
And letting go of the mistakes we ALL make AND learned from, accepting yourself and others with all their warts and all their glory, and learning about living happily, no matter what curve balls life throws at you.
sometimes i call my marriage a mistake.
Your mil had issues for sure. She's a depressing kook. And? I mean, Mine was schizophrenic and violent and I was often the target of her episodes. As you admit, you had good times too and your h won't forget ALL of them. But this isn't a contest of MILs. Just means we deal with it. And after the detailed post you gave regarding what your h would say if he were posting, I still think your mil was relatively small factor b/c you yourself admit you two had issues quite apart from her. Why does this matter?
i left stuff out. that's why you don't hear much about it.
B/C when you refer to her and her behaviors, you are talking about something you can do nothing about and therefore you avoid "the work". If we are talking about you and h or your M or your behavior, then we're discussing something you CAN affect, but stop short of. Why? I think the real work is what you are avoiding.
i was looking for the 'will work" technique but that's not realistic of me to think. you don't know if it doesn't work until you try.
You said your m would be different today than before, (but not better). Just words about trust being broken so it's a done deal. We know that. I'm talking about what you've learned about yourself and what you'd change. After all this pain, surely you would be a better w than before. I'd think so, but if so, how? If not, how tragic. Do you see why I say this? Do you discuss this with your IC?
no, i don't because my ic isn't focused on making me a better w. she's focused on getting me through the grieving process. walking away from my m.
i need to make a real conscious effort .. not this yo-yo of "oh woe is me" to "i'm gonna make him pay" attitude.
So, I guess, I take it you mean you won't see things so black and white, "all or nothing" anymore? Good. And yes you do have to make a conscious effort at this. None of it happens by accident.
you'll know when i'm pms-ing. that seems to be when the black-to-white swing occurs.
Wow...Without knowing your history enough to know whether this is based on reality or your admitted overly suspicious nature, all I can wonder is if this is going to be helped by you trying to think more "Normally"? It does not sound normal, fyi. Sorry but it doesn't. Why would he think you are stalking him? And even if he gets a restraining order, how would that effect the property division? I don't think it would. Stalking him? Why? B/c you live in the same building? I found it odd, but Did he get a restraining order on you then, or do you simply fear he wants to?
i fear that he wants to.
when he sough ic himself, i don't know what he told his counsellor because she told him to pack an overnight bag in his car .. in case it got too stressful at home, he was to leave. and it messed me up because that kind of advice is reserved for battered wives. again, i didn't do anything .. i don't hit him, i don't pick fights with him, i gave him space when he needed it .. i moved out of our bedroom to give him space .. i did everything i could to make myself scarce .. and i'm an abuser? i'm 5'2" 100 lbs and he's 6'4" 190 lbs .. there's no way i can attack him. he must've made stuff up.
his mom makes stuff up and exaggerates the truth herself so should i be surprised that he would do such a thing? he's being guided by his mother so i can't sit back and assume he's not doing anything. i'm sure there's some plot to get me knocked off so he can claim everything.
before you give me your advice, please understand that i did not tell the full story. there are things that i have kept to myself because if this is a public forum and i don't want stuff on this public site that is too personal.
You said You've looked and looked for a "smoking gun" (ie OW) and have found none. Then Why keep looking? I mean What difference does it make now if your divorce can't be based on adultery? Isn't it possible you are looking for a reason NOT to try and reconcile? Just so I know, how'd he break the trust (other than wanting out of the M, b/c there's no OW and no lying that you've discussed here)?
if there was an OW, i wouldn't reconcile. i can't be with someone who has been with another woman. that's my issue to deal with. i don't have sex with someone who has had multiple partners. the risks, the fact that his thing has been in someone else's yoohoo .. you can bleach it to kill any trace of her but it wouldn't help.
May I assume something in the past leads you to worry about this that I simply didn't see in the posts, or are you totally over thinking this? "Slapping a restraining order" on you for merely contacting him isn't realistic. Either something is missing from the story, or you are doing some serious negative mind reading. I'd nip that in the bud.
i'm really good at figuring things out about him without digging through intel or whatnot. the amount of dirt i can get on him is frightening. and i could use it to my advantage if i'd like .. and i often think that he could take me out for having so much info on him. i know his dirty little secrets. i won't let them out but he probably fears i will leak his dirty laundry.
There's a lot in your post and I lack the time to adequately respond. I'm also probably not getting through to you so there's that...
You talk about your h "taking you out" and to be clear, you mean to kill you?
Um, that's either very dangerous and you should tell the authorities, or you should tell your IC b/c that's an alarming thing to say but you don't seem aware of this. And even if you want to pretend your only issue is your div, it's not true. You have stuff to deal with, and "trust" and your past history and your mother and paying for everyone else in your family at age 23, instead of supporting yourself (Why? so you can earn their love or what?), or you being a victim of other's selfishness or weakness OR your perception that you are, even now, is just not healthy. True or not, it's not healthy. It also again, avoids looking WITHIN...
Talk to your IC or get a new one if you are not comfortable with the one you have now. But as I read your post I see so much pain and unresolved issues AND not a lot of insight.
You are not dealing with your issues. When I bring up the "Work" to do, you bring up your history and it's mainly others who hurt you that you bring up, which is not work for you to do, but history of others' behavior, and OR you say "I have an issue with sex BECAUSE..." and then you explain/defend it in a way that makes me think you are justifying it and that you genuinely don't see how you prevent yourself from being happy and fulfilled. You're smart, but you are not digging inside. But since I'm not your shrink, I'll leave it at that.
I think where the head goes, the heart, eventually, follows. And as long as you keep your head on straight you'll be alright. But you don't and you call it "PMSing" but it seems you do spiral negatively and you do not seem to notice it. Or you think it's okay for awhile...
Also, You did not say why you NOW think your h would want a restraining order on you. Why now?
You again said that you refused to reply to him when he said "hi" or greeted him or something like that, and that somehow this was going to make him miss you?? I think you realize now that you probably just validated his reasons for wanting out so we'll leave that issue alone.
There are a lot of things you describe in your behaviors that I simply don't understand. You defend them, but you also admit that none of these behaviors worked. So, there's not really progress b/c you seem to be saying, "I did X and Y and it did not work but BUT I wanted to or needed to or felt justified....and so I did it and I'm Right, I'm not happy but I'm right..." and there's no desire to change. It's like you are saying "well I made mistakes but they're ALL justified so I'm going to keep on doing them and wish HE'D change but he won't and so I'll be alone and that's sad and unfair...but oh well..."
Talking once to your h about not using L's was your idea of "trying"? Geez, I have to say that I'm surprised you are surprised it did not work. Your timeline for effort and your definition of "trying" is pretty short and narrow.
Don't know what else to say. I think GAL will be helpful but if you ever want to find peace and love in your life again, which we ALL do, you really ought to give IC another chance. I suspect you may want a different one b/c if your present IC has not helped you in these areas, you probably need a new one. Just my gut telling me that. I hope you'll try a workshop or talk to a c who says it like it is. You don't need coddling, in my opinion.
You're stronger than that. But it'd be nice if you stopped feeling obligated to help others TOO MUCH...what do you think would happen if you stopped taking care of others? You think they'd stop loving you? You see how you are making this about other issues than your m and yet, how they relate to your R problems in both areas? You're playing victim in all these areas. And you resented it. That shows more than you are aware. And you feared financial irresponsibility so much you may have helped create it in your own m, and now you say YOU have nothing to show for the M...ironic, don't you think? Seriously, D4, you have WORK to do and the only way you will really get to the other side of this, is through that work. As they say, "the program works if you work the program."
Good luck
i'm actually going to try something here .. and that is "stop doing what doesn't work".
normally, if i sense a disconnect (not the same as disagree) with another poster, i would stop responding. so let me do the opposite and stay the course and see what happens.
maybe the first question i should be asking is: what is work? what does it mean to do work? give me an example of how far does one look in order to do work.
and go from there. because obviously, we are on two different wavelengths. we both don't know what the other person is talking about.
i thought part of doing the work was to look back at what caused the m to breakdown. i could say stuff like our spending habits, our pace in life, etc. and those are just surface things. underneath those things has to do with habits and behaviour. ok. so what leads to my behaviour? that's how i started looking at things like my father's financial irresponsibility. i know what it's like to not have that financial security. it's scary and it leads me to save like crazy because i don't want to worry about whether i am going to be able to pay the rent or buy food. that's how i approached "doing work". i'm not trying to blame others. i'm trying to explain why my behaviour is as such or what i've learned about why i react, behave, or think the way i do. it's only step 1 in recognizing what the problem is.
me having to take care of my family at 23 and not being on my own - it's a cultural thing. i'm going to leave it at that.
from your response, i'm confused as well because in some ways i should look into my past but yet, when i do .. you see it as me blaming them and playing the victim. i'm just saying this is what my behaviour or reaction is shaped from. i was hoping you would look at it from that point of view. not as in me whining or complaining "oh woe is me". i'm not saying it's right or wrong .. just this is why i reacted this way.
just as we are responsible for our own feelings. we are responsible for our actions, reactions, and behaviours. so i cannot be a victim .. this is my own doing. i have nobody to blame but me. i guess what i wanted to point out was that i was trying to be something i wasn't. i was trying to be like my sisters in their 'perfect' marriages but what works for them, doesn't necessarily work for my marriage. i am in a mixed marriage. they are not. so there are differences. plus, i'm different from my sisters .. i love adventure .. they do not. so try telling an adventurous person to sit still .. he/she can't.
the person my h fell in love with .. was not the person who wanted to sit still. he wanted the adventurous side of me. i truly lost sight of who i really was because i was too busy trying to change myself for my family. why did i do this? well ...
moving away from my family was a lot harder on me than i expected. my sisters lived in the same city as my parents and they would get together for family dinners every sunday. i moved away to a different city so me wanting to be like my sisters was a way to remain part of my family. i didn't want to be the family outcast. in order to keep my family, i gave up who i was. again, not blaming anybody else. this was something i did to myself. i allowed myself to be influenced by this.
when my h and i separated, my family wanted me to move home to be closer to them. i chose not to because i didn't want to go back to that life. my parents didn't insist that i live with them but even living in the same city .. i couldn't do it. they would keep tabs on me. are you eating, are you sleeping, are you okay? can you come over for dinner? i woudn't be able to GAL. living away from them, i got to GAL the way i wanted to. i did things that i enjoyed doing. playing squash, learning to bake, taking cooking classes, etc. my mom isn't crazy about the things i do because it makes me "different" from everyone else. now? i'm happy to be different. i wouldn't change that in me. i don't want to be the SAHM who lets herself go and doesn't care how she looks or dresses.
living away from home has made me stronger. i don't feel obligated to take care of others because my priority is to take care of me first. it's really different to be putting myself first. it's very selfish but i'm all i have right now.
i can't keep sleeping at 3 am in the morning. so i'm going to end it here for now.
Much of your posts sound smart and healthy as if you are GAL and I hope that's all well and true.
But at times, your posts vary wildly in tone and mood, and alarm me. You dont' really respond to those comments I bring up.
For instance, it was YOU who said "I don't deserve to live" & you just left that out there. You also wrote that you think your h wants to kill you, or "take [you] out". Um, you forgot to address that today. You said you worry that he'll "slap a restraining order" on you OR that he'll think you're stalking him, and that is startling for most of us to read, even for here.
Elsewhere or another day, you'll describe behaviors that are hard for me to comprehend. You refused to greet him in the hall after he left, even though you chose to live in the same building! Why do either of those things?
You posted that you told your h 'let's try to do the Div without L's" once, as an effort at recon, but that didn't work, and that was that.
So I have Still no idea what actual efforts you put into the m once he made his feelings known. I also didn't know your m was mixed until now and that info is relevant. Why leave that stuff out? He's not lurking and there's nothing that would hurt your property division anyhow and the divorce is for irrecon differences so nothing you say here would matter in the UNlikely event he's somehow onto you being here and "sabataging' your DB efforts (another thing you posted and never elaborated upon).
You also said that "11 days is the longest without" any contact and that came AFTER he filed for divorce. When I commented on that being very very short, and NOT true DBing, you asked me where I got the idea that no contact was new for you. ALL my questions arose from your posts.
I got all the feedback from you and responded to it, asking for more info or details to be able to help. Then I get this partly evealing and confusing and partly vague answer. And something about whether you'll choose to respond to my post as if you are offended.
Hey, do what you want. But know that what you post here, and MAYBE what you put out to the world, is Not consistent. And it does alarm me at times.
So again, I hope you'll share ALL this with your IC instead of just your "grief" b/c there's a lot to your sitch that may have little to nothing, to do with your h.
I don't know. I can't know, b/c I don't have all the relevant facts.
i apologize for being vague and just leaving it out there.
what usually happens is that posters will post questions for me to answer. i answer honestly and with effort .. and then they disappear and don't follow up.
i've learned that people don't stick with your thread. i guess i assumed you would too. i'll hear from you for maybe a week and then i never hear from you again. and after all that .. i will have bared my soul .. it's all out there and no follow up.
the only poster who has stuck by me was forrest. so i usually answer his posts as honestly and i will make an effort to dig deep. most people don't like his style of posting but i get it.
i consider forrest a great teacher. he has taught me quite a bit.
that's actually why my posts to "random advice givers" are vague and black-or-white.
i am sorry if i made that assumption about you. i honestly didn't expect you to give me advice or even take the time to do so. i'm just used to people stopping by for a post or two and then disappear.
i did suspect that my h was lurking. i found out about these boards through him. i saw the words "divorce busting" scribbled on a piece of paper (his handwriting) on his desk one day after the bomb had been dropped.
so i tend to be vague and leave stuff out in case he is following my thread. i've left out some critical notes because of it. but in general, i came here to see what db-ing was all about. i read the books. i was skeptical. i knew how angry my h was.
i know that the great vets here have tried to convince me that my h is hurt and that i'm not listening. but my h is a different beast. he hasn't waivered, hasn't softened, and has shown no remorse. i learned today, that my h is still whining about how financially unfair the divorce process is for him. the vets say it's not about the money .. but from where i'm sitting and what i'm seeing, i can see how important money is to my h.
i haven't been able to figure out why he had the words "divorce busting" written down but i suspect that someone tipped him off and said she could be doing this - learn the techniques so you don't fall for her scheme.
i could be imagining things. but i've been guarded about stuff. there is no PM here which makes it hard for me. i want to be open and honest but i'm guarded.
anyway, i will try to put together a note that hopefully addresses everything from the last few posts you made. if you disappear, i will understand.
"btw, i did the right thing for my separation agreement. no blood, no guts. just the right thing."
It will be interesting to "see" how it pans out. Personally.. I still think you have a chance. But.. if all you do is walk away with your head held high.. I am OK with that.
the verdict is in.
there is no chance. he is still very angry over how unfair the process is. i know what is coming.
sorry for speaking in code. but i thought you might want to know.
D4MIL
D4,
All I got from your post is that you saw the words "Divorce busting" written on a scrap of paper some time ago. From this, you have deduced that he is 1) lurking and 2) never doing any DB work himself and 3) trying to sabatage your DB efforts...
I don't think he's lurking now, I don't think it matters if he is, and I don't see how it could sabatage your efforts at GAL or having a PMA (Positive mental attitude is a major issue for you if you don't mind my saying so. You definitely "catastrophize" a lot). You need to change the tape in your brain into a postiive one and if that's a cultural thing for you, then you may need to do it even more.
The rest is about your fears of abandonment (in life and on this board). Not much we can do about that but respond to your posts if there's something to respond to. I strongly believe that acting out of your fears can often lead to the very things you fear most, coming true. For instance, who fear loss of wealth so much that they can end up "saving their money" by putting it in "risk free" investments and losing a fortune. Or they are suspciious of their spouses... And people who are so conflict avoidant (fear of abandonment?) that they put off discussion of meaningful differences, or dance around them, OR hope their partner will read their minds, often do the avoidance until those differences have festered so long without airing, that they boil and then explode and the very modest conflict they avoided, instead is now a huge out of control FIGHT...
What is it you want from us at this point? I feel as if you'll argue if we suggest a positive spin on things, b/c you see no such thing. So I hesitate. Maybe you are right. Maybe it is hopeless. But where does that leave you and us here? YOu want to do the work but when I talk about "real" issues you remain vague or pick and choose what you'll discuss. Everyone has their limit on disclosure but it's hard to connect or help without detail of what matters.
Your claim your h now cares a lot about money (or you now notice it) is based on what exactly? You provide no details to justify that claim, and all we know for sure is that money was a huge issue for you. Your fears he'd be like your dad & waste money lead you to be controlling about money and to keep it more separate than any couple I've heard of.
Is it possible there's some projecting going on. How's your IC going?
Hey D4ML, I want to say I'm still reading but very, very involved with the D process and haven't posted much lately.
I am completely FASCINATED by the recent posts here--so much GOOD GOOD STUFF!!! I am thinking about how our deepest fears can be brought to fruition by US!
Really think on some of this advice here--a lot of posters give up very quickly because there is so much "dodging" on your part--you don't give too many straitforward answers and there is a lot of "reading between the lines" that people have to do. It takes a lot of effort. So people are discouraged, and you get to say "they left me--more abandonment??"
I only wish I had some of this kind of advice over on my thread--I hope you are realizing what a gift it is!!
I want to say I'm still reading but very, very involved with the D process and haven't posted much lately.
hey lauraoh. i read your latest post. it's nice to see you are having fun while going through the d-process. i think you definitely are the model of "expect the worst, hope for the best". i mean that in a good way.
I am completely FASCINATED by the recent posts here--so much GOOD GOOD STUFF!!! I am thinking about how our deepest fears can be brought to fruition by US!
yes, i've discovered some things about myself as well. i look back and i see a lot of that. and much of it was my own doing. shall i peel a layer off this onion? here it goes ..
i has to do with the way i see and value myself. for example, i would say to my stbxh "i'm really just preparing you for your next real wife." he would frown at that statement because he viewed it as me calling him 'unfaithful' or a 'cheater' which he hated - obviously, because it's an attack on his character. the way i saw it was that i'm not good enough for someone of his status. sometimes i didn't even know why he was attracted to me. i was totally plain jane. this thinking is due to middle-child syndrome. i'm not the oldest or the youngest. so to stand out as a child, i strived to be the smartest. you see where my "i am right" attitude comes from? because in order to stand out, i was the smartest and the smartest is always right (we can debate this but for simplicity sake, just go with it for now).
being plain jane, you don't know what is so special about yourself. and that's how i see myself. there's nothing unique or attractive about me. i don't dress unique. i don't look unique. i am just an ordinary girl. i have a college education - just like everyone else. i have a job, like everyone else. i play a sport - like everyone else. i cook, i sleep, i shower - just like everyone else. i'm no better than anybody else. why would anybody choose me? i used to think that my h was the best thing on earth. he was physically attractive, he was smart, he was well educated, and at the time, he came from a good family, same morals. the family part unravelled after we got engaged but i digress. i don't know if that part is important so i'll leave it out for now.
but he was way too good for me. he would tell me that i was attractive or that i was everything he was looking for. he was in love with me before he even knew it himself. to me, it was nice to hear but also so much pressure - there's that negative view again. i still didn't have the confidence that i would be able to keep him interested in me. it's my abandonment issue. i'm trying to figure out where the abandonment issue is coming from. my parents are still together. my father didn't abandon us. my mother was always there. i don't remember when there was a particular time when someone left me and i was devastated. my stbxh was my first love. my first dumping. so i'm really struggling with figuring out the root to my abandonment issue. i don't doubt that it is a problem but maybe i'm not looking in the right area for the answer?
geez, looking back at this post, i'm all over the place - this is why i hate peeling the onion. it's disorganized ramblings.
when i spoke of the posters abandoning me here, i'm talking about posters who post once and then disappear. early on in my first thread, there were posters who posted once and then never came back. i prefer to work with someone in the long run so i don't have to regurgitate my story from the beginning.
I only wish I had some of this kind of advice over on my thread--I hope you are realizing what a gift it is!!
i do. to be honest, i have been receiving some good guidance from vets and they truly have helped me. i'm guilty of not posting consistently. which is why you only see bits and pieces.
update: the latest on our SA is that we are still far apart on some items. my atty made a glaring calculation error and i just discovered it last night. i'm not happy with the sloppy calculations but i should have looked it over more carefully.
h is still extremely angry. we are still in NC. but his response to our SA proposal let me know that there was no salvaging of this marriage.
despite reading the books, i still get sucked into the wayward bs. the vets tell me .. it's wayward script so don't take it literally. but i get sucked into it .. and i never thought of myself as a "words of affirmation" person but i'm starting to think that maybe i am. otherwise, the wayward script would roll off like water on a duck's back. the words from the script have a huge affect on me. i also use words to hurt him because it's likely my main LL. i always thought my main LL was QT and PT. but i think WOA is up there.
anyway .. i think i've rambled enough.
D4MIL
I
[quote]I am completely FASCINATED by the recent posts here--so much GOOD GOOD STUFF!!! I am thinking about how our deepest fears can be brought to fruition by US!
yes, i've discovered some things about myself as well. i look back and i see a lot of that. and much of it was my own doing.
i has to do with the way i see and value myself.
I
It has almost everything to do with the way you see yourself, and what you project about that and how it influences, eventually, how other people see you. The constant need for your h to disprove your negative self image must have been draining on him. I'm NOT saying he's perfect or you're a piece of crap, but you have major issues (reflected by your own comments below) and still you are only addressing "grief" with your IC. Why? for example, i would say to my stbxh
"i'm really just preparing you for your next real wife." (WHY WOULD YOU SAY THIS??)he would frown at that statement because he viewed it as me calling him 'unfaithful' or a 'cheater' which he hated - obviously, because it's an attack on his character.
the way i saw it was that i'm not good enough for someone of his status. sometImes I didn't even know why he was attracted to me. i was totally plain jane. this thinking is due to middle-child syndrome.
Who says? That's you using an easy explanation but I don't buy it. I'm a middle child of sorts (6 of 10), and we have a middle child and MOST middle children don't talk the way you are talking. It's an excuse you are using, again, to avoid deeper searching.
Please tell your IC this and do not give her the easy diagnosis of why. Better yet, stop thinking this way regardless of why you did. Is it really so important NOW? After all, You cannot be a "victim of childhood" forever. i'm not the oldest or the youngest. so to stand out as a child, i strived to be the smartest. you see where my "i am right" attitude comes from? because in order to stand out, i was the smartest and the smartest is always right (we can debate this but for simplicity sake, just go with it for now).
Does this mean the "need to be right" outweighed all else OR are you talking about something unrelated to the Marriage? I mean, why does this matter today? Unless it relates to your debating small things and the need to be right. SOmetimes that need to be right outweighs the need to be happy. Is that you? What can you do to change that? (instead of diagnosing why it's a trait)
being plain jane, you don't know what is so special about yourself. and that's how i see myself. there's nothing unique or attractive about me. i don't dress unique.
EVEN IF TRUE, which I reject, geez, God forbid you change any of this...it's not like you are legless. You CAN change nearly all of these things if you find them so important. I don't. But still....
i don't look unique. i am just an ordinary girl. i have a college education - just like everyone else. i have a job, like everyone else. i play a sport - like everyone else. i cook, i sleep, i shower - just like everyone else. i'm no better than anybody else. why would anybody choose me? i used to think that my h was the best thing on earth. he was physically attractive, he was smart, he was well educated, and at the time, he came from a good family, same morals. the family part unravelled after we got engaged but i digress. i don't know if that part is important so i'll leave it out for now.
Back to now, and not how mediocre your life has been, (b/c from where I'm sitting, your problems all fall into the normal life stuff AND you have a lot going for you.)
Thing is, if your own h-who you say was good to you--IF HE could not lift your spirits, I know I cannot. And in real life, it's WE who have to life ourselves up, no matter what the sitch is. A lot worse has happened to so many and their attitudes are good and that matters.
I believe what we put out to the world, we get back from the world. This is not revolutionary or brilliant of me. I have 5 living brothers--MEN-- and you know what they want from a woman? They ALL just want and cherish having a loving wife who takes care of herself. That's what they want. Not "the MOST beautiful or the MOST intelligent or the MOST wealthy or "most" anything. Just loving and self respecting (yes that means you don't gain 200lbs and pretend it doesn't matter. But your looks don't have to be Christie Brinkley's either.) A woman of substance knows her worth.
but he was way too good for me. he would tell me that i was attractive or that i was everything he was looking for. he was in love with me before he even knew it himself. to me, it was nice to hear but also
so much pressure - there's that negative view again.
I don't even know what to say to that. His loving you was "so much pressure"...pressure to what? Love him back? Enjoy it? Tell your IC this and if they are not helping you, get another one.
i still didn't have the confidence that i would be able to keep him interested in me. it's my abandonment issue.
i'm trying to figure out where the abandonment issue is coming from. While there's value in this, the "solution based therapy" MWD discusses, addresses what to do about it NOW, regardless of underlying cause. Many patients learn and learn about why they are the way they are and then feel justified in being that way. IOW, they do not change. Change is what matters don't you think? There's also some value to "faking it til you make it" meaning you can act as if you are or feel a certain positive way and you'll find those positives often arrive in reality, down the road. my parents are still together. my father didn't abandon us. my mother was always there. i don't remember when there was a particular time when someone left me and i was devastated. my stbxh was my first love. my first dumping. so i'm really struggling with figuring out the root to my abandonment issue.
i don't doubt that it is a problem but maybe i'm not looking in the right area for the answer?Maybe the anwer won't change the behavior so maybe it's not the holy grail.
geez, looking back at this post, i'm all over the place - this is why i hate peeling the onion. it's disorganized ramblings.
when i spoke of the posters abandoning me here, i'm talking about posters i'm guilty of not posting consistently. which is why you only see bits and pieces. It's the dodging and surface analysis that frustrates me b/c I think you are cognitively capable of more. ANd the hiding of key facts like the cultural differences AND the suicidal ideation you've still never addressed.
update: the latest on our SA is that we are still far apart on some items. my atty made a glaring calculation error and i just discovered it last night. i'm not happy with the sloppy calculations but i should have looked it over more carefully.
h is still extremely angry. we are still in NC. but his response to our SA proposal let me know that there was no salvaging of this marriage.
How do you "know" any of this, given the NC?
despite reading the books, i still get sucked into the wayward bs. the vets tell me .. it's wayward script so don't take it literally. but i get sucked into it .. and i
never thought of myself as a "words of affirmation" person but i'm starting to think that maybe i am. otherwise, the wayward script would roll off like water on a duck's back. the words from the script have a huge affect on me. i also use words to hurt him because it's likely my main LL. i always thought my main LL was QT and PT. but i think WOA is up there.
D4MIL
I don't know what most of that last paragraph means. What he's saying or feeling, since you have NC...nor do I know what is supposed to roll off your back or his, or the words of affirmation now, when there's NC...this confuses me.
While no one wants to "abandon" you, there are people here really looking for advice to use in their situations. Do you see yourself as one of those, truly?
If you want to just journal here, that's fine. But I think that means you don't want feedback or if you get it, you'll simply "observe it" or debate it. And is that as beneficial as us using our time where someone in crisis needs and will use more?
I'm sincerely asking. Not trying to bash you but am honestly curious.
I'm sincerely asking. Not trying to bash you but am honestly curious.
the reason why i didn't respond to you is because i don't know how to respond to you.
everything i post, you take as a defensive response. and i feel that you attack me in your posts. it is not helpful to me. i think you could be a resourceful person but i don't get the feeling you really want to help me. you want me off this board because i'm taking up diskspace or something. i'm not posting on newcomers where people need help the most. i'm off on the "separated" forum where there is less activity.
Who says? That's you using an easy explanation but I don't buy it. I'm a middle child of sorts (6 of 10), and we have a middle child and MOST middle children don't talk the way you are talking. It's an excuse you are using, again, to avoid deeper searching.
this is what i mean by not helpful. if you can see that i'm not getting it .. why don't you try and ask the right questions to guide me towards "deeper searching" because after so many posts, it's quite obvious i don't know what questions i need to answer in order to achieve that "deeper searching". instead, you simply accuse me of avoiding.
you want me to expand on my past but when i do, you tell me that it's not relevant NOW. so i have no idea what you want from me.
all you say to me is "you're wrong" and that's it. it is not helpful to me. ok. i'm wrong .. so how do i make it right?
It's the dodging and surface analysis that frustrates me b/c I think you are cognitively capable of more.
i don't know how to tap into the "deeper searching". sometimes you can guide me there by asking the right question. there is a way to get beyond the surface analysis - by creating trust and asking the right questions. i know nothing about you. why would i trust you with my sitch?
How do you "know" any of this, given the NC?
h wrote a long letter about why felt the process was unfair and why he should be getting what he wants, etc. much of it would not hold up in court, but there was a lot of hostility in his letter.
the word should not affect me but it still does. we are in NC but when i read his response, it is as if he is saying those things to me. this is what i meant about my LL being words of affirmation.
While no one wants to "abandon" you, there are people here really looking for advice to use in their situations. Do you see yourself as one of those, truly?
well, at the risk of being called negative or expecting the worst and that's what you'll get..
i'm not sure what kind of advice i need. my sitch is at the point where the SA is being negotiated and after that, i expect to be served d papers.
i just wanted to give lauraoh and forrest an update because they have followed my thread from day 1. i owe it to them to let them know how my sitch is progressing or ending.
the last paragraph about the LLs is something that i learned early in my sitch. i had mentioned it in one of my earliest posts. and it was like a breakthrough for me. but i think i'm wrong about my original LL.
i would definitely like to get some help on peeling the onion. my ic sessions are for short term. we focus on getting through the grieving process and letting go. i've been told to meditate so i can focus ..
if your strength is in saving a marriage. this one isn't salvageable. catastrophisizing? my h is angry that i have taken steps to protect myself. he was hoping i wouldn't and just agree to whatever he wanted. but i didn't and because of that, he wants me out of his life as soon as possible. before money came into the d picture, he said that we had a bond that nobody understood. after we started to discuss splitting up our finances, then the bond disappeared.
if you are truly trying to help me become a better person, then i will work with you.
I'm sincerely asking. Not trying to bash you but am honestly curious.
the reason why i didn't respond to you is because i don't know how to respond to you.
everything i post, you take as a defensive response.
No I don't.
"Everything"....please. Don't extremize good advice. I simply think you are dodging. Or being superficial, like bringing up explanations from the past about your history but without it revealing much about you personally.ie. Saying your father was bad with money "made you" a certain way with money now. But you did not try to change your beliefs, which did not help you live your life well. It contributed to problems in your m, by your own admission. But you continute to explain those beliefs to justify them AND you continue to extremize the "other side" so if I were to suggest lightening up on money, you'd reply with "I don't want to WASTE money like my father" but no one said to do that. I am not saying "go spend wildly" so don't make what I say into something extreme. As for "dodging" the deeper answers, others mention this so I'm not alone in this belief.
and
i feel that you attack me in your posts.
Now who's being "defensive"? And who's projecting? I think That is a practice of yours and it is revealing. It could be useful to you if you "do the work" meaning honestly facing and evaluating this behavior-- hopefully you will recognize it and learn that it's not healthy. It doesn't help you here on the board, or in your real life, I think.
it is
not helpful to me. i think you could be a resourceful person but i don't get the feeling you really want to help me. you want me off this board because i'm taking up diskspace or something.
You are making such strange accusations here. You're the first person to say this to me. I've posted countless times over a period of several years. I've given people 2 x 4s at times, and held their hands as MINE were once held in this most sad of experiences. I said many times that you need more help than we can provide here. That's not the same as saying I want you off the board. It's admitting my limitations. When you have time to reflect on your comment, I hope you'll see how wildly inaccurate and unfair it is. Others who read posts of mine, HERE, have found value in them but evidently not you. Too bad. Who says? That's you using an easy explanation but I don't buy it. I'm a middle child of sorts (6 of 10), and we have a middle child and MOST middle children don't talk the way you are talking. It's an excuse you are using, again, to avoid deeper searching.
this is what i mean by not helpful. if you can see that i'm not getting it ..
why don't you try and ask the right questions to guide me towards "deeper searching" because after so many posts, it's quite obvious i don't know what questions i need to answer in order to achieve that "deeper searching". instead,
you simply accuse me of avoiding.
Because you point to SOME (not the most alarming ones though) of the odd unhealthy behaviors of yours, but then explain them away as if having a reason for them, makes them acceptable. As if You can't change them...you are who you are, and you got that way b/c of something that "happened to you" so it's "hopeless"...and THIS approach prevents you from growing. Rather than taking charge of your own happiness you point to some syndrome or other easy explanation as if it's a cause and not a choice. The middle child syndrome is a cop out. I stand by that.
you want me to expand on my past but when i do, you tell me that it's not relevant NOW. so i have no idea what you want from me.
See above. ANd you do not expand on the dangerous comments you made. You just don't.
all you say to me is "you're wrong" and that's it.
it is not helpful to me. ok. i'm wrong .. so how do i make it right?
I Don't think I ever said you were "wrong", but it's fascinating how you read into any constructive criticism, and turn it into something destructive. You also never address the HIGHLIGHTS--the red flags-- like the suicidal ideation you revealed, STILL gets ignored by you. Even now. By the way, my posts are aimed at YOU finding out what you are to do NOW. Not about the past, unless it's relevant to discovering how to change something today. It's the dodging and surface analysis that frustrates me b/c I think you are cognitively capable of more.
i don't know how to tap into the "deeper searching". sometimes you can guide me there by asking the right question. there is a way to get beyond the surface analysis -
by creating trust and asking the right questions. i know nothing about you. why would i trust you with my sitch?
Trust me? You don't have to trust me to benefit from advice. I didn't ask you to trust me. But I have said many times you should address these things to the IC. You say you don't. Fine.
I'm a L and a part time counselor in real life, but I will not and cannot counsel or give L advice online b/c 1) it's not my position or desire to do that online; and 2) I don't know your history near well enough.
You also don't need to trust me to get advice b/c you can always ignore it. But there are people who want ot get advice, learn from their mistakes and change their behaviors Nor do I have time to "create trust and ask the "right questions'. I am just very direct.
I have been direct with you and don't want riddles or defensive responses or dodging answers. Good grief.
You need help, and of that I am sure. But you want that help without even "giving" us the information we need. You want us to guess and ask "the right" questions, thereby taking up OUR time and making it as easy on you as possible. When I'm direct, you say I am "attacking" you and you project a lot of negativity onto me. I actually think that's part of your situation b/c you admit you did this with your h but now when you do it to me, you see no pattern. Patterns abound in your posts and probably in your life. Use this information to make changes.
How do you "know" any of this, given the NC?
h wrote a long letter about why felt the process was unfair and why he should be getting what he wants, etc. much of it would not hold up in court, but there was a lot of hostility in his letter.
While no one wants to "abandon" you, there are people here really looking for advice to use in their situations. Do you see yourself as one of those, truly?
well, at the risk of being called negative or expecting the worst and that's what you'll get..
i'm not sure what kind of advice i need. my sitch is at the point where the SA is being negotiated and after that, i expect to be served d papers.
Since you are not here to save your m I can't give you advice on that. Just wanted you to see your part in it.
But I have a success story and did not expect to just a few years ago. I recall doing an article on my "upcoming divorce", which never came to be. That's how expectant I was of a divorce. Gave my chances of a recon 10% at one point and said "it would take a miracle." I began DBing shortly before that, and kept on NOT to save the marriage anymore, but to save ME and to learn how to forgive, and to set an example for my children and to avoid becoming neurotic and bitter. And now my m is in a good place. We still have struggles but the commitment is there and so is the love. Since you want no part of that advice, all we can do is what? Oh, nothing b/c you are here to simply update some others and journal.
When I see those "journal" entries I see a sad woman very stuck and entrenched in her need to be right, who then swings to other extremes in mood. Frightening extremes. I dare to point this out. And when I mention them to you, repeatedly, those extremes, those alarming changes and scary suicidal comments of yours remain untouched by you. SO do your comments about fearing your h wants to kill you. You don't even bother to deny them. You post this to me instead. IT's sort of an attack but I don't take it personally.
But I shake my head at the waste b/c you sound intelligent and educated but also, blind. As for defensive behavior, you're projecting again. I have nothing to defend against. You don't know me. I tried to help you. I have helped others, or so I am told. My m was restored. That's enough for me.
i just wanted to give lauraoh and forrest an update because they have followed my thread from day 1. i owe it to them to let them know how my sitch is progressing or ending.
i would definitely like to get some help on peeling the onion. my ic sessions are for short term. we focus on getting through the grieving process and letting go. i've been told to meditate so i can focus ..
if your strength is in saving a marriage. this one isn't salvageable.
ALthough I've heard that before, and said it myself, I'll take your word for it. My "strength" is in helping people get through hard times and maybe in the process grow enough as people that their m IS saved or THEY ARE saved...they find themselves on the other side of this nightmare, whole and healing. Some of them credit me with insights that helped them grow as people.
I just don't think it's that DB failed. I don't think you really DBd and you might even admit that yourself. Does it matter now? Only if you've learned nothing in the process. catastrophisizing?
I am referring to your "I don't deserve to live"..."I deserved to be left"..."Im not a good person" and that your h "wants to take me out" meaning to Kill you. Yes I stand by the comment that you are catastrophizing b/c those are such alarming dramatic, over the top remarks that you do NOT follow up with, I am stunned you still ignore this. It's disturved thought pattern (yet another pattern) Or worse, it's true and you are not doing anything about these clinically dangerous emotions, or criminally dangerous events to come.
if you are truly trying to help me become a better person, then i will work with you.
From your other comments about me "attacking" you, or Me being "defensive", I suspect someone else can help you more. That's not an insult or a punishment. But you say nothing I've asked or said to you has helped you. So, what's there for me to say?
I sincerely hope your counselling helps you peel away the layers and walls you have so that you can see that deep down inside, (as I said before, in another one of my posts "attacks") you will NOT find a monster.
You'll find a little girl who has been hurt badly and doesn't know how to heal herself. A girl who is trying to "think" her way through this. I suggest you try an Essential Experience workshop for personal individual growth (helped my marriage but my h and I went separately, THEN as a couple b/c it's not designed for couples but as each person IN a M/R gets better, so does the R/M...) so that you attend an experiential workshop where there's no time to rehearse an answer to screen your responses. And you'll be left with an action plan. If not that workshop, then another one. Read up on it. See what you think. It's life changing if you let it be.
One last thing I wanted to note, before signing out and off...you actually wrote me, "Why don't you try to ask the right questions?"
Wow. What a remarkable question you asked. Almost as if I owe you the "right" questions? I don't. But why don't you make it easier for us/me to help YOU? (And Lest we forget, I asked many questions that you have still not answered so I could say, "what's the point?")
But more importantly, do You actually think I've purposely avoided the "right" questions? Or that it matters what TYPE Of question I ask, when you could simply dig deep and figure out what you may need to address about yourself? What kind of game is that? I'm not playing.
As a L, I am a bit of a wordsmith, so I choose my words with precision. You don't need to read into, or guess, what I mean b/c I say what I mean and I mean what I say. That part is easy.
What's with the mystery game? Guessing wastes time and I don't have that much time.
Other people and I are easier to reach. Why? It is simple.
They choose to disclose, they share, and they do it without the excuse (or fear??) of revealing "too much" ...too much what? Too much..."something"...etc. What are you afraid of disclosing now?
If you're worried about something criminal, My advice then would be an adamant HIRE A L!" But I doubt you could shock me with a confession considering I did criminal law for 3 years...
Other clients and people on this site, including ME, have gotten a ton of help from counselors, DB coaches, therapists, and people HERE, some of whom become real friends in real life, but all of them, do open up.
THis isn't cross examination. It's an act of faith and bravery but truly in my case, what did I have to lose by opening up, that I wasn't already going to lose without opening up? If i didn't dig deep and fix ME, I'd lose my 25 yr m, half the time with my kids, and a fortune.
So They or we bravely open up, (anonymously of course) and dig deep, they make changes,& they grow. They become the best people they can become, with some backsliding here and there. But invariably, they become happier people.
As their best selves, the following happens... Sometimes they reconcile like my h and I did, ( And like Brandnewday, Saffli, BobB, and several others who reconciled). Sometimes they grow & are ready for healthier R's with the next person in their life, such as Was2sad, Faithisbelieving, OR austinsmartcookie.
OR the LBSer grows and changes and remarries a new person, and ends up like Bworl who finally, after much heartbreak we all shared with him, happily moved on to a new M, and is a better man than before (his words) and a happier man (his words).
In ANY case, we want to move on as our new best selves. It's ALL up to us. Your life's happiness is ALL within your control. I believe that 100% about myself and others.
That's personal growth, and That's DBing. AND it's hard.
I strongly encourage a few days' workshop so you avoid the "dabbling" of weekly or bi-weekly therapy that can be WONDERFUL and with an excellent IC, and with insights BUT with interruptions from real life. It often leads to slower progress due to interruptions from work, or picking up the kids or mom coming over, etc
Doing a weekened retreat forces us to work THROUGH the problems and solve them, not postpone til next week OR the week after.
FYI, That's NOT an "attack" on therapy. Without therapy I would not have been able to benefit from the workshop retreat. Just a thought.
If you are the one in your M from a different culture (I still don't even know that small but crucially important factor, b/c you never revealed it til recently...& why not?) And both I and my h are 1st generation Americans and it matters. Cultural differences added some color and interest AND friction at times. But I'm not ashamed of it. I never hid it.
Does any of that relate to the religious issues? It did in my sitch. But You made it harder to help you by leaving that out. Even now glossing over it. Might affect his approach to property settlement. Why wouldn't you mention that in all the months of posting here that I saw. Yes I'm frustrated.
Despite your apparent intelligence it does suggest some sort of victimhood or world view that would get you to say something as odd as that I "attacked you" and wanted you "off the DB board b/c you took up too much disk space"
That would really be laugable if it weren't so sad and insecure. How do you get through your days thinking like this? You have to stop the negative tape in your brain but hey, I said that before too.
Like your screen name, you search for AND FIND, a much darker view of the factors in your situation and insist it is "unique" (as in uniquely horrid) and UNsolvable...and "unlike ANY other" situation...the point of this is what? Attention or surrender?
D4, I see those words about every week on this board. Most people Do feel their situations are TOTALLY different than others, and there are always some things that are unique. Hence NOT having a one size fits all approach.
But most of us find it comforting to realize we/they/YOU are NOT alone,and your sitch is not that unique. Doesn't mean you are not special! But the world has seen your very problems before.
Well, I sincerely wish you peace and insights and luck. Maybe Forrest or someone else will be able to ask the right questions and you'll answer them and gain some insights that also lead to change. I hope that all happens.
25, i propose we start all over again. and we will work our way through to all of he unanswered questions, and extreme ways of thinking.
i think i know why i have misunderstood you. i mistakenly assumed you read through my sitch or i assumed that my threads painted a detailed enough picture of things. after reading your last post, i realize why there is a disconnect - it's because you don't know my history.
if you agree to start over, i will give as much detail as i can. the only reason why i am proposing this is because my intention is now to save myself. when i first started on this board, i wasn't interested in saving myself. my goal was to save my m. it has finally hit me that my m cannot be saved and i do not like what the mood swings does to me.
I read your posts, off and on since March. (Did Not read all the details of communications with your h).
I looked for but never saw anything about you getting treated for depression, or the reason for a restraining order or him wanting to kill you. Nor who came from which culture and whether there were issues at the wedding about that or child issues (have or not?).
What significant piece am I missing? My guess is that you won't get to the core. I think you'll stay on the surface day to day things. That's not very useful, in my opinion, given the other things in THIS post. (ie, talk of Suicide, homicide, etc)
My guess is that you won't get to the core. I think you'll stay on the surface day to day things. That's not very useful, in my opinion, given the other things in THIS post. (ie, talk of Suicide, homicide, etc)
to me, that's mind-reading. i've been told that's a no-no.
but i don't know what else to say.
WTH? How's it a "No no" or "mind reading" when I'm quoting you?
25 .. i'm really trying to extend an olive branch.
I don't need "an olive branch".
You need to address matters of real importance here. Your mental and emotional well being are pretty important. I'm talking about your suicidal comments and saying you think your h wants to kill you, and saying you don't deserve to live and that your h wants to "slap a restraining order" on you...You have NOT addressed those in later posts. You simply roll those unpinned grenades onto this site, and move onto some other topic, never returning to explain or address those bombs. Then you say I'm attacking you and that I am defensive. What?
To me, these are core issues.
i had this desire to run away or escape what i was going through and feeling. i kept thinking of a place to go but i didn't know where because it wouldn't matter where i went, i could not escape this feeling that was eating away at the pit of my stomach. would the only way to get rid of it is to die?
saying you think your h wants to kill you
he has said in the past that there are shady relatives who aren't afraid to go to jail and would do anything to protect him, should he feel 'threatened' by anyone. if he feels paranoid enough, he would do such a thing. his family lives on paranoia.
your h wants to "slap a restraining order" on you
he's been trying to get away from me. and some of the advice here is to go talk to him. being the paranoid person that he is, i've seen him react to me going to the same sports club. he would pack up his stuff and leave - and no, he wasn't just leaving. he'd huff and hurry out. he used to avoid me in the parking garage in our building. by coincidence, we'd arrive home at the same time. he'd park .. see me .. leave .. circle the building .. and then go back to the parking garage. i witnessed it with my own eyes. so if i showed up anywhere he was, he would view that as stalking and convince a judge to slap a restraining order on me.
he has convinced his ic that he was a battered husband. i didn't lay a finger on him. if he can come up with stuff like that, what else can he come up with? that i'm stalking him just by talking to him? yeah, the only person who can come up with that is my h.
Regardless of why you felt suicidal, you need to get help for that. I hope you are. Explaining it is not solving it. Congitive analysis is not curative in itself, obviously. Death is no solution. Please seek out IC for THAT...and whatever else it leads to in your life, b/c I think it affects more than you realize.
Second, If your h SAYS and or ACTS as if he wants you to stay away from him, I have no idea who would tell you to go talk to him? That's strange advice. From what you describe, he has certainly demonstrated his desire not to share your company. Don't try to contact him except thru L's. Given the givens, It would look like stalking to most people b/c he's made it clear he doesn't want any contact with you. He leaves when you enter a gym.
(Elsewhere in your posts you say he greeted you in the hall of your common building, but you refuse to reply in kind...so I'm confused there. Why you live in the same building, why he'd greet you if he fears you, why you'd refuse to respond if you want a reconciliation...but No Matter! Finding consistency in your posts is just not that important anymore, compared to you getting help for your underlying issues. I don't want to harp and argue on details when energy should be spent on GAL and dealing with underlying issues.)
If the other things you say are true, you are describing a mafia like man as your soon to be ex h. To that I say, good riddance.
And where the head goes, the heart will follow. When you keep it simple, and know you are not losing a loving healthy man, or seeing the end of a good m, (regardless of who did what) but instead you are gaining freedom from fear and lunacy and a sick R that brought out the worst in both of you. So perhaps your head will lead your heart to the kind of life a healthy person leads.
Regardless of why you felt suicidal, you need to get help for that. I hope you are. Explaining it is not solving it. Congitive analysis is not curative in itself, obviously. Death is no solution. Please seek out IC for THAT...and whatever else it leads to in your life, b/c I think it affects more than you realize.
my ic talks to me about this at every session. she did find it odd that i was quite composed during our initial meeting and yet the answers to my questionnaire indicated that i was severely depressed. a depressed person isn't always sad. when i'm depressed, my mind is my worst enemy. i don't necessarily cry. but i don't smile much. regardless, my ic makes sure to check in with me on that at the beginning and end of each session.
Second, If your h SAYS and or ACTS as if he wants you to stay away from him, I have no idea who would tell you to go talk to him? That's strange advice.
my attny did. when i first met with my l, i told him that i didn't want a d. i wanted to save my marriage. he was okay with it but we had to work out the details of the separation agreement regardless.
my l suggested that i go talk to my h about working out a separation agreement without the lawyers. gauge his response. if he is still hostile, then walk away .. we fight lawyer with lawyer. to my lawyer, this would give me a bit of peace of mind to say i tried.
He leaves when you enter a gym.
he did for the first two times i showed up. then after that, he was fine. we even played a couple of games together. this was mid summer. around early july, he stopped going to the squash club and hasn't been to the club since. when we did talk at the club, it was normal conversation. nothing unusual. it's weird because the club is the most expensive squash club in the city. membership is not cheap. why waste a club membership like that?
(Elsewhere in your posts you say he greeted you in the hall of your common building, but you refuse to reply in kind...so I'm confused there. Why you live in the same building, why he'd greet you if he fears you, why you'd refuse to respond if you want a reconciliation...but No Matter! Finding consistency in your posts is just not that important anymore, compared to you getting help for your underlying issues. I don't want to harp and argue on details when energy should be spent on GAL and dealing with underlying issues.)
honestly, i don't have a good explanation for this. i kept thinking of the common db advice here: why would you want to be friends with someone who is kicking you to the curb?
i would talk to him in public and be cordial but once we were in the building, i just ignored.
but side note: when we were selling our house, i had to go look for a place to live. i chose to look at a rental unit at this building that i was familiar with. i signed to rent a 1 bdrm unit. apparently, 10 mins after i left, my h went to the same building looking to rent. so that's how we ended up in the same building. he only rented for 6 months because he had a house that was being built. he didn't care - it wasn't for the full year.
And where the head goes, the heart will follow. When you keep it simple, and know you are not losing a loving healthy man, or seeing the end of a good m, (regardless of who did what) but instead you are gaining freedom from fear and lunacy and a sick R that brought out the worst in both of you. So perhaps your head will lead your heart to the kind of life a healthy person leads.
i don't see this yet. as you said, i have issues that need to be resolved. i am trying to work on those things first. deep down, i want to be the best option out there for anybody (not just my h). i'm doing as much GAL as i can. my ic says that i'm not able to focus .. from our discussions, i'm all over the place. squash has helped me focus because i concentrate on the game, strategy, etc. i walk away with a smile because i had fun. i don't get that same focus when i do other things. not at work, not at home, not even when i took the baking class.
there is still a part of me that wish the m could be saved. just because i don't have kids, it's still a marriage.
"Just b/c we don't have kids, it's still a marriage"...
Yeah we know. But you also say you are severely depressed, he'd be willing to have you killed, he avoids you (sometimes you say that and then you shed a new totally different detail, again, that paints a different picture altogether. Like I said, let's keep it simple).
SO back to earth, the m was a m. Yes. You almost always say it's hopeless but now you admit you wanted to save it. But you also say he was willing to have you killed and that he'd get a restraining order if you contact him (The one time thing with the L wasn't advice "to pursue". It was a one time probing attempt at solving property issues, and perhaps more, without L's but I have no idea how you approached your h. But it does not matter now).
What matters now is that you objectively review some of the upsides to getting free of this crazy relationship. I can't make heads or tails of your sitch in some ways b/c it changes often. If I make an assumption based on what YOU say, you'll toss in a new piece that refutes earlier posts. So I will stay focussed only on what I know is crazy or dangerous. And his threats, if that's what they were & as YOU say they are, then they're crazy and dangerous. IT's good to be out of THAT.
That's all I can say for sure.
Like I said, let's keep it simple.
ok. i will try this because it will help me focus on what is or isn't important.
You almost always say it's hopeless but now you admit you wanted to save it.
when i started here, i wanted to save it. i didn't think our issues were that difficult to solve. i remember saying "i want to save my marriage. i'm not interested in saving myself from the grips of depression because that is inevitable." the negative talk. as the days went on, i started to see that i needed to GAL, put on a happy face, and find that person he fell in love with. so i started making a list of things i wanted to do. i found something that made me smile and focus. i don't know if that was the best plan. but over the summer, i felt better about myself. i had the occasional meltdown whenever my lawyer contacted me but otherwise, the GAL saved me. the reason why i'd have a meltdown when the lawyer called ..was because in the back of my mind, i was always hoping he would change his mind. and when the lawyer called, it usually meant that there was movement from his side. and so my hopes were crushed.
i think about why i want to save this marriage. it's an exercise in listing of pros and cons.
What matters now is that you objectively review some of the upsides to getting free of this crazy relationship.
if i follow your advice to keep it simple, it might be easier to review the upsides.
thanks 25 .. i feel less defensive.
btw, the next thing i am going to work on with my ic is what's behind the anger. anger is a shield that is hiding the true emotion .. could be shame, fear, or something else. and i definitely know there is shame and fear behind my anger.
So how's the IC going? Your last post said you'd dig into deeper issues. Anything happening there?
finally, i'm back to post an update.
ic is going well. i went into ic to look for a solution or coping strategy for my anger. for months now, i vent whenever i have a private moment. in my car, in my apartment, even in my sleep. i would vent.
i learned that my venting was due to years of allowing my h to cross my boundaries. when you allow someone to cross your boundaries, you essentially say .. you don't matter but the other person does. eventually, this eroded my self-esteem .. which leads to the suicidal tendencies because i'm not worthy.
now that i have a better understanding of why i vent, i'm less stressed. less angry .. and even the venting has lessened to a degree. i am aware when i do vent and i listen to what i'm saying. what am i complaining about today? and it brings me back to the times when i let him cross my boundaries without consequences.
many times, i would ask myself .. do i want to start a fight over this? i would say no because it's such a small issue. but little did i know, that there were a lot of small issues that i let go. by letting things go, i allowed my stbxh to cross my boundary.
my venting is just my way of saying .. hey, i matter. but i'm frustrated because he isn't there to hear me say that i matter.
my stbxh also doesn't believe i matter because he has stated quite clearly that he deserves everything from our house and i deserve nothing. mainly due to his belief that he paid for everything and i paid for nothing. in other words, even he felt i didn't matter.
it hurts because i let my actions speak for themselves. i don't ask for praise or recognition. i let my work speak for itself. and for years, my work went unrecognized. it still isn't being recognized.
i won't be posting here as often .. i want to heal and prepare myself for being served.
i am moving forward on my own. i have done a list of things for myself this year that i never would have had the opportunity to do if i wasn't free from my marriage.
i tried to rediscover who i was pre-marriage and i think i'm a better version of the pre-marriage me. i'm wiser. i've experienced different things .. learned new skills .. and read more books. i think i'm better than i was before marriage.
D4MIL