Hi everyone,
Some basics...
Me: 33
Her: 39
T: 10
M: 8
K: D15; S4
Bomb: 10/23/08
Separated: 10/30/08
My wife and I both seem to have some pretty reactive tendencies in the emotion department. We experienced a highly conflictual separation involving the courts and did not talk to each other for the first 4 weeks other than the most rudimentary communications about the children. Over the last two weeks, our anger seems to have faded somewhat and it seems we have both have realized that some coals are still smoldering in the ashes of our first marriage. I have tried to change things up by trying to facilitate her establishing her own household and assist her when she needs my help. It has been very hard to resist the temptation to do things for her that she can do for herself... I am trying to limit myself to only doing things that she actually asks me to help her with.
In terms of progress, she has started individual counseling and is (finally) starting a medication for depression. I have an appointment to see a counselor in January, and I have already had a couple of spiritual counseling appointments with my rabbi as well. I am trying to keep an optimistic outlook without getting too attached to any outcomes or goals, although I have come to realize that I do believe my marriage is worth saving or, rather, I believe I love W enough to be willing to make a new marriage with her. For awhile we were stalled in the "Who's going to make the first move?" stalemate, and that is where DB really helped me... so far, my optimism and positive steps have seemed to stimulate responses in kind from her, and I feel we are reinforcing each other's willingness to see this through. That being said, it has only been a short time so far and we have only just started to identify our core conflicts. We have both expressed a desire to do marital therapy, but I don't think we're quite ready for that yet. I am just really glad we're talking again. I am working on forgiveness, of myself for the mistakes I made in our first marriage and of my wife for her mistakes as well. Is it really possible to just start fresh? We had dinner together last night and spent most of our time talking about the dramatic events surrounding our separation, however I was able to redirect the conversation in a future-oriented direction a couple of times.
She has accepted my invitation to come over tonight to light Hanukkah candles with me and the kids... I am really excited and happy about this! I am starting to see the many blessings from G-d that I have taken for granted, and regardless of the eventual outcome with my wife, I am grateful for this experience for opening my eyes and helping me reconnect with my religion.
Well, she changed her mind about Hanukkah, said it was too soon for her to be back in our house like that. Even though I was bummed, I tried not to let her see that. I just said, "If the time's not right, it's not right. Have a great evening!" and left it at that. She did let D15 stay later than originally planned though, so that we could watch "The Dark Knight." What a kick@$$ flick!
SBT -
Sorry that you're here - but you seem to be doing so well already - and also seem to be on the right track...just the fact that your W is willing to work on your M with you - and on herself - puts you in a position that many of us could only hope for, so I'm glad that you're not taking any of the changes you've seen for granted.
Post in other threads - get around and introduce yourself...one of the best ways to learn from this site is to step into other people's threads - even just to offer some quick encouragement or compassion.
Kudos on your response to her change of mind with Hanukkah...at least you got time with D15...that's always precious.
-Carlos.
Thanks for the support. My situation is a little weird, in that neither one of us was willing to take the first step toward being separated, but we both needed some sort of break from our previous relationship. That's why our initial separation was so explosive... things just kept escalating and neither one of us would back down. So she is not exactly the classic "walk-away wife," but I feel like she really had given up on our marriage and, in a way, so had I.
She expressed verbal willingness to work on our marriage in counseling, which is a good thing. Historically I believe I have been the higher-desire partner when it comes to "fixing the marriage," though, so I am concerned that this is just lip service. Nonetheless, I am choosing to take her at her word. At the same time, I feel like I have always been the "pursuer" in our relationship and so I am calling on all the reserves of willpower I can find to limit the amount of contact I initiate with her. Because of the particulars of our separation, I felt I had to make the first move in terms of re-opening the lines of communication. However, I believe I have made it clear to her now that I am interested in working toward reconciliation, so I really feel like I have to leave that ball in her court. I have found several decent candidates for therapists... all she has to do is say the word and I will make an appointment. On the one hand, I don't want to get trapped in the "Who's going to make a move first?" dynamic, but on the other hand I don't want to fall back into my old pattern of supplying all the energy for our relationship as a couple. One of the things that made me so angry in the first place was my perception that she liked the financial security and support I provided a lot more than she liked me. Now I realize that there is some of my own low self-esteem built into that, and that my behavior contributed to that pattern as well. That's why my goal for today is to not call her... I want to step out of my rigid fixed role.
Areas where I am the high-desire partner:
1) Fun (dates, etc)
2) Sex
3) Conversation
4) Affection
Areas where she is the high-desire partner:
1) Financial responsibility/budgeting
2) Care of our home
I would say parenting is the only thing that we both seem to want to do, although we often disagree about how to parent and this generates more conflict.
Upon writing that down, I feel a little bit hopeless: it kind of makes me feel like an interchangeable part, some sort of combination repairman/ATM. However, I can also see that from her perspective she probably feels like the only adult in the relationship, like I am more interested in being a lover/boyfriend than being a husband and making a family with her. We seem to have fallen into VERY rigid roles with regard to these issues.
That's why I am trying to use some of what I have learned in DB to change these dynamics. I am taking (having to take, now that we are separated) a much greater interest in the bills and the house. I am trying to summon up as much willpower as I can to change my approach to the things I am "high-desire" on: I can't complain that she never initiates any of those things if I am always there "firstest with the mostest." I have come to realize that I feel rejected pretty easily, and that when my wife "ignores" me that I tend to become very self-denigrating in my own head. Certainly it reinforces some negative opinions I have about my own attractiveness. However, I am optimistic that I can overcome that negative self-talk and start to have more respect for myself. Exercising and losing weight have helped a lot in that regard.
Anyway, my goal for today is to not call or text my wife. We'll see if I can do it!
Interestingly, wife called and left an affectionate message on my voicemail yesterday afternoon. So funny, because I was feeling really pessimistic. I guess I need to keep working on being optimistic... not worrying so much. The only way I have been able to do that so far is just to ask myself, what would an optimistic person do in this situation? How would they feel? Michelle's simple equation "Crisis=Opportunity" helps as well.
Otherwise, I am working on making myself happy. Last night I made myself dinner (OK, slight exaggeration there, I heated up a couple veggie burgers and had them on bread with some tahini dressing and a beer; but I did spend some time online finding things to cook for the next time the kids are at my place), took care of some bills, did some laundry, put some new music on my mp3 player, called my kids and said goodnight to them (they were way too busy playing with the cousins at G'ma's house to want to talk to me, which is fine... I am glad they were having a good time!), played Xbox for a little while (doesn't hold my attention like it used to), and then practiced the piano until I was too tired to stay awake. I can almost play a two-handed version of "Jingle Bells" now, but the last couple measures keep tripping me up. I bet I'll get it today, though. Yesterday afternoon I ran two miles as well... I have found that exercise is the key to fighting depression (for me, anyway). So, all in all, a fairly full and rewarding day. I went to bed feeling pleasantly tired, instead of all depressed and anxious.
Today I am going over to a friend's Christmas gathering to get some people time in and enjoy the holiday. One thing for which I am thankful to my wife is helping me get over my defensive attitude (I'm Jewish) toward the Christian holidays. I actually enjoy Christmas now that I don't feel so threatened by it. I think I'll tell her that the next time she calls (yep, the next time SHE calls... I'm sticking with my 180 on the pursuit thing).
Everyone patient enough to read this, please have a blessed day and a Merry Christmas! Peace on Earth, World Without End, Amen!
Working on validating myself today. I have lots to do... paperwork to catch up on at work, housecleaning, trip to the gym, preliminary run-through on the taxes to make sure I don't miss any deduction opportunities before year-end, and then a relaxing evening with the new piano (I must master Jingle Bells before kids get home this weekend... nah, not really, I just want to; I won't be too hard on myself if I don't).
BUMP!
I de-bumped myself by posting on other threads, so I am bumping myself again.
BUMP!
That's wonderful that she left an affectionate message - perhaps it means that what you were doing is working - and she is already seeing some of the positive changed in you?
Keep up that optimism - and the piano lessons sound brilliant...I've been meaning to do something of the same - thought it got a bit complicated in that my W took the piano when she moved out...I've been thinking of replacing it ever since (though I don't play...my older son does, though).
Keep posting on other threads - keep talking and letting people know what you're going through. It takes time to build you a presence here - but it is so well worth it once people get to know your situation and can help point out where you started and how far they've seen you go.
Happy holidays.
Best,
Carlos.
Thanks for taking the time to read my long posts, HD. W and I had a pretty serious conversation last night about why we're at where we're at. Because of some of the peculiarities of our separation, I was not sure it was really a WAS situation, but now it seems clear to me that there is a lot of that going on. The thing that has been a real blow to me has been realizing the validity of a lot of her reasons for walking away. I am trying to stay positive and not wallow in guilt. I have identified as my goals the following: patience, love, hope, faith, charity. In practical terms, I feel like my wife is telling me pretty clearly that what she needs now is time and space to make up her mind about us, and to work on some of the issues that she has brought into our marriage. I know I also need time and space, but I am scared that with that much time and space, one or the other or both of us will choose to end this marriage. I know in my head that if that is the case, then that is actually what is best... I just feel very scared and anxious in my heart about that possibility. I guess it's normal to feel that way, it's just that I am kind of an anxious person to begin with and it is pretty challenging for me to deal with that level of uncertainty and anxiety. Still, it is a challenge I am willing to accept. I see no other way. On the positive side, it is clear that we still love each other. There are a lot of hurt feelings and broken trust to overcome, though.
Practical, short-term goal for today: give her space. Do not call her. I will try to post again tonight to see if I meet that goal.
Practical, short-term goal for today: identify negative, pessimistic thought patterns and try to find a way to turn them around. I will try to report on that goal tonight as well.
I am trying to believe that God will help me find my way through this mess, and that wherever I am going is where I need to be. I am a decent person who has made some mistakes. I think the same could be said for W. I love her. I will be patient.
Hi CL,
I hear a lot of the way that my sitch has been in you and your situation. Thank you for posting to me recently, and I'm sorry it's taken so long to post to you. I am trying to spend a bit less of my time on the boards these days, as I think it helps me to take a mental break from it all.
I am still not "there." H has still not recommitted, and is still relatively negative every time something about us comes up. However, we are living together again, and this is amazing. I say this to you because I was where you were. There were a few things that I heard along the way, that I did not believe (and still struggle with), but should have taken to heart. One of these is "believe none of what they say." Regardless of whether your wife is a "typical" WAS or not, and regardless of who contributed more to the problems that led to the M breakdown, she is likely going to be coming to discussions about the M from a very negative and pessimistic place. She clearly felt like she could not address the issues with you while together, so her first instinct is probably that things are better without you. I was out of my house for 3 months, and terrified that my H would decide with all that time apart that he liked life better without me. We had a few horrid conversations after I got back about him wanting a D, about there being no hope for us etc. However, I did not give up, and have not given up even when it seemed like there was no hope. I say this to you because you mentioned that with time and space apart, one of you may decide that you want the M to end. Certainly you yourself can come to any decision that you feel is best for you, but another saying that I have heard on the board several times is "it's not over until you say it's over." There is a very good chance that your wife will say she wants to end things, that she can't go back to what she came from etc. I don't say this to frighten you, but because it is something that most of us seem to hear in one guise or another at some point along the way. What I can suggest is that you use every opportunity possible to show her that things are different, and that she would not be coming back to the same marriage. You want to plant the seed of doubt about whether she is making the right decisions. It sounds like you are already doing this, but I've found it very helpful to think of specific complaints my H had (ones I thought were valid) and start addressing them. It is much harder when you are not together, but as you have children, there is a need for regular contact, so this gives you plenty of chances to show off your changes. In my own case I wasn't even in the same country, so it was really hard, but through a few well-placed emails and IMs, I tried to show that I was making changes.
Have you heard about the 4 stages? Knowing about them helped me to cope a bit. In case you haven't...
Stage 1-reduce negativity and increase positive emotions
Stage 2-friendship
Stage 3-romance
Stage 4-reconciliation
I jumped the gun a number of times, thinking I was in stage 2-3 because there was ML and constant contact. In retrospect though, if there are enough problems to cause a separation, there is going to be a pretty substantial period of time spent in stage 1. It's my guess that most divorces happen in stage 1, as it's the period that feels pretty hopeless. This is the time that you have to listen to everything the WAS says, fair or unfair, and validate. From what I've seen on the boards, this is the most difficult time to get through, and the hardest to overcome. Once you get past it, the other stages are a bit more fluid. I think it helps to know that you're in stage 1, as goals and expectations can be set accordingly. I had goals as simple as that my H would say "hi" or "how are you" when initiating contact. Speaking of goals, have you set some goals around your W and what baby steps would show you that things are moving in the right direction? Also, have you considered DB coaching?
Hope you are doing well today,
ITH
Wow, CL, I think you just got one of the best posts I've ever read here...Thank you ITH, for sharing your thoughts - as I cannot tell you how much I've come away with from reading your words just now...
And thanks to you as well, CL, for dropping by and sharing your PMA with me...sometimes I just need to keep seeing that in others to remember how vital it is for me as well.
How as the soccer game?
-carlos.
Hi CL,
Welcome to the place no one ever wants to be... But look at this as the opportunity to make needed changes in your relationship and get things right- starting with you. It sounds like you have already started that process by seeing some of the things that have contributed to your separation.
That is a first step. For me I never thought things were so horrible that this should have happened, but the reality it doesn't matter what it was to you- it was horrible for your spouse.
I highly recommend a DB coach. Mine (Jody) was invaluable to giving me advice on specific things to do which I am SURE helped save my marriage. It is really helpful to have the insight of someone who deals with many of these situations and has helped turn them around.
Since you are in the first stages of this my advice to you is to not talk about ANYTHING relationship wise if you can help it. Just act happy with your new situation. When I was at your stage I remember the advice to me from my DB coach was to validate my H and tell him that it was a 'good' thing that we were separated so that we could take time to work on ourselves. Ug that was hard to do!
But... my H and I are together again! It has taken 6 months and there is love again in our relationship. H still has not moved back home, but is staying here a good part of the time. I do hope that this experience will solidify our marriage and make us stronger than ever...
I hope that it will be the same for you too.
As one of my friends said- you will live and feel like you have never before during this time... Open your eyes and heart and appreciate it...
Thanks, everyone, for the support and wise words! I don't have time for a long update, but I had a great day yesterday and met both my goals. I did not initiate contact with W, and I worked hard on positive thinking and taking care of my own needs.
@Carlos: The games were great. I scored a goal in the first game with a wicked free kick, one of the best I have ever taken. I didn't score in the second game, but we did win 9-6 (scores are higher in indoor).
I will try to post a longer update tonight after I get my son to bed. Right now I have to get back to work.
Biggest issue I am having right now is: to "go dark" or not? Will try to get more specific about that later, but just wondering if anyone else here has done it and what the results have been?
Hi CL,
I think going dark is good in some situations, and counter-productive in others. I am sure others will weigh in with their thoughts and experiences here, which may be completely different than mine. One of the reasons given for going dark is to be able to take some time for yourself to detach from the emotional rollercoaster that even the most stalwart seem to ride. If you feel that you would personally benefit from this kind of emotional time and space, then it may be worth considering. Another reason given for doing this is to allow the WAS to see what life without you would really be like, and also to potentially pique the WAS' interest in you. In my own situation, 2 days was the most that I ever went without contact from H, but I did decide not to initiate, and was able to keep this up for about 2 months, apart from a couple of business emails. Going dark should not be ignoring your spouse when he/she does reach out (unless there is abuse or other boundaries that are being crossed). The only reason I say I never went dark is because my H reached out constantly. If he hadn't though, my plan was to stay dark. In my case I chose not to initiate contact because H thought that I had been controlling, and my DB coach said that it was important for him to be able to feel in control of the separation, and in control of the cadence of contact. This killed me at first, but I learned somehow to cope and made each day without initiating contact a goal reached. I can imagine that when there are children involved you will not be able to go completely dark either, but can remain dim, i.e. no non-essential contact. From what I have seen on the boards, this often does spark the WAS' interest again, although there is of course the possibility that it will increase the distance between the two of you.
I think the rule of thumb is to change the way that you interact/have contact. So, if you were the pursuer either in the R or after the bomb, stepping back will likely have an impact. However if your W has complained that you did not take enough of an interest in her or the R, or that you were distant, going dark may alienate her. Have you considered DB coaching? I ask because the DB coach is likely to be able to give you very specific suggestions for contact based on your own situation. I've mentioned the advice that I got, but I remember that a successful DBer, Pisces, had gotten advice not to go dark because it would make her H feel like a schmuck. If you don't go the DB route, maybe you could give us more details on what's prompting the thoughts about going dark?
Well done on your game by the way :). It sounds like you are making the most of your time.
Are you on FB?
ITH
Here's my dilemma: wife has accused me of being both controlling and distant, although on the whole the "controlling" accusations have been predominant. My perception of myself as the "pursuer" in our pursuer-distancer dynamic is just that: my perception. However, W has alluded to feeling like she needs more space on many occasions. I guess to bring it to a practical level, W and I have had dinner/coffee three times since separating, and all three were on my initiative. I worry that I am making it too easy for her to be separated from me but still have my attention. I also worry that I am making it too easy for her not to confront her own issues by being so reassuring in terms of the attention I pay her. She has called me a couple times, mostly after 1-2 days of minimal contact from me, which makes me think going "dim" (you're right, can't really go dark with the kids involved) may be the right path. Both times it has been about fairly mundane stuff, but it is contact, and it is initiated by her. Baby steps, right?
Hi CL,
With what you've said, it sounds like going dim could be the right answer at least for the moment. I think the way that I would look at it is that your W has asked for space (even if it ends up that this is not what she really wants), so it would be useful to show her that you are giving this and that you have listened. From what you've said about your wife's behavior when you have minimal contact, this does seem to be working. I think that in terms of the complaints that she has had on occasion about your distance, you can still show her that when you ARE in contact, you do care and listen to the things that she says. There is a good chance that you going dim will make her angry at first. It seems to be a common theme for many of us that when we start to make changes, they provoke anger in the WAS. I don't think it's intentional, but I know I've been baited on several occasions myself.
Yes I think stage 1 is usually full of mundane business contact, or spew. In my situation I mentioned that we had contact almost every day, but it would usually be about the bank account balance, the pets etc. As time progressed, there were occasions where H's guilt would come through and he would ask about a lot of personal things, but would usually either get angry or talk about how he couldn't be with me. Each situation is unique of course, but I think if you can get to the point where your W starts venting to you about the R, then you are well-placed to show her your calm changes, to show how you can listen and validate. I made a spreadsheet of big goals each month, with baby steps that would show me I was heading in the right direction. For example one month my goal was that H would be comfortable with me. Baby-steps were around the frequency of contact, and the things that would be discussed. With some of these goals there isn't a whole lot that you can actively do toward reaching them, apart from making yourself as safe a presence as possible, but I would look at them more as indicators or milestones.
Hope you're having a good day!
ITH
Thanks, ITH! I like your statement about being as "safe a presence as possible." It is funny, your post almost retroactively predicted the path of my day yesterday.
1) Did not initiate contact with W.
2) W called in the afternoon asking if I would bring her a bookcase from the basement. I said "Of course," in the most positive tone of voice I could muster. She then asked if she could come over and get some books out of the basement since she was bored at her new place. I said, "Heck yeah" (not in those words, but that was the emotion).
3) She came over yesterday evening and walked around to different parts of the house. I had everything nice and clean. After getting a lot less stuff than I thought she was coming to get, she sat down on the couch (in her "usual spot") with our daughter and watched a show with her (in our house!). "Ah ha," I thought, "Maybe this book thing was just an excuse to test the waters at home..."
4) We took the stuff back over to her place, I helped her get it all where it needed to be. We were done, and we were looking at each other, and I could tell she wanted to talk but was too emotional to make the first move, so I invited her for coffee at a "neutral location."
5) We ended up talking for almost three hours. (Aside: Why didn't we ever think to do that when we were "together!?!?") It was a serious conversation for the most part, with a lot of heavy emotion. She was definitely "Venting about the R." Tears were spilled. I validated and validated and validated the feelings, took responsibility for the things I felt I had done wrong, and kept trying to gently steer the conversation in a positive, future- and solution-oriented direction. The great thing was, we also made time in the conversation to talk about the kids (fun talk, not child-rearing problem-solving talk), to laugh together about the terrible Muzak, and at one point W even seemed to find a sense of humor about the bizarre and explosive way we ended up separating.
6) At one point, we locked eyes for a solid minute. The desire to reach out was palpable; her hand started to move out, then pulled back. I just said, "I want to hold your hand, too, but there's no hurry."
So, wow... I am still trying to process this huge conversation, but overall it felt like a positive step. Knowing W, this gentle motion back toward intimacy will likely stimulate some fear and anger in her, so I am going to stick to my policy of giving her space. I really feel like she was testing the waters yesterday, and I don't want to put any pressure on her. I guess maybe that's something that I have worked on in myself. It just feels right to me that we both have that space right now.
We have another mundane reason to meet today. We'll see how that goes.
Thanks for listening.
Need a break from all this... backslid this afternoon and sent a text to wife inviting her to have coffee again tonight, which is OBVIOUSLY way too soon and too much, and I knew it when I sent it, and I sent it anyway... we talked, she reminded me that "this is not a dating situation," which it isn't, and now I am just back to realizing that I need to meet my own needs, set my own boundaries, find my own limits.
I feel overwhelmed by my conflicting emotions about all this. Blech...
So, after W declined my invitation for coffee yesterday, we ended up talking on the phone for more than an hour that night. Convo followed a similar pattern to most of ours recently, but overall was a surprise because I had been thinking her taking a pass on my coffee suggestion meant she didn't want to have anything to do with me (darn negative thought patterns again, although at least this time I realized and examined it) yesterday, which I guess it didn't since she clearly wanted to talk. I guess she just doesn't feel comfortable doing "normal" stuff in our home yet.
So then, today, I am taking her "the check" and she invites me into her new place to have a cup of coffee... we talk for almost two hours, get through a slightly tense conversation about a topic (our daughter's clothing preferences) that had previously led to full-blown arguments. W told me she just wanted me to listen to her vent and I was like, "Oh, you mean I don't have to put pressure on myself (while projecting my self-torment onto W) to solve this problem? Phew! I can just listen to your feelings about it... that's cool."
Anyway, here's what's got me all topsy-turvy... as I was leaving I told her "I don't want this to feel like a pressure thing, but if you want some company for New Year's Eve, you can come over and celebrate with me..." I was not expecting what happened next... she gave me a hug. And not just a quick, friend hug, but a longer, wife-y sort of hug. Unrequested, unsolicited, and totally unexpected. Can't even REMEMBER when the last time that happened was! Anyway, she said, "I hope that didn't feel like a pressure thing," and I just said, "Nope, it felt great!" We said our goodbyes, and I sat there in the car with my heart pounding wondering if maybe, just maybe, there is hope for us still.
I am not even sure what I am doing that seems to be improving things... but I guess I will keep doing it!
Happy New Year, everyone! Thanks for being here with me... this journey is lonely enough, at least we have each other.
Hi CL,
Just wondering how all is going? Did you spend New Years with your W?
ITH
Thanks for checking in. Spent New Year's with my son, daughter, and three of her friends. Invited W, but she wasn't ready. It was still lots of fun with the kids. I made a stir-fry with tons of fresh veggies from scratch... now that I am working out a lot I find I crave vegetables endlessly.
O/w, we seem to be maintaining new status quo, although we saw a fair bit of each other last week as my son was sick with a stomach bug, so it seemed like there were always little reasons for me to stop by. W invited me to stay for a cup of coffee several of those days. We talked a lot, she vented about our relationship, I validated. It seems like I am establishing a good pattern of validating her feelings, which helps me be more empathetic, which helps me validate, which helps me be empathetic, etc. It has really only dawned on me in the last month why she was so unhappy in our relationship. The challenge now is to change things for the better, and I think we are doing that a little at a time. We both have issues from our dysfunctional, abusive families of origin, and we are each working individually with counselors right now. My final statement to W on marital therapy was: "I'm ready whenever you are," which I told her last week. I resolved not to say anything else about it, and so far I have held to that resolution. Patience is my watchword, and I pray to God every day to help me find the patience and love to give W the space and time to figure out what she wants from life and whether that includes me. I have faith that it will, but if it doesn't, I know I will be OK. The changes I am making in my life will be good for me regardless of the outcome of this separation.
In terms of the stages, I think W and I are starting to inch toward the friendship stage, but mainly still reducing negativity and slowly increasing positive emotions. We have each complimented the other a couple of times, and we have had a few brief hugs and handholds, but W still seems to have a fair bit of fear and anger that she is dealing with.
Love is patient...