Ok. Well. Another new thread.
Here's where I stand;
Separated since April 08
Little contact with W except on kid issues.
Full mediation to end our marriage Oct31.
Wife not interested in making any effort towards us.
Wife convinced we have nothing in common, nothing can change, typical waw excuses. However, she has become BFF with another divrced woman. She also bailed on her husband. I hear many of the same excuses from W that I heard when this lady gave up. My W had many problems with this lady for a long time. Didn't like her selfishness, materialism, etc. However "she has changed" and now they are best friends. My W states to me that "you can't change people, people cannot change", but admits this lady did ( I don't think she really did, I think my W changed and became her).
Anyway, I'm in the final 30 day stretch of married life. Its my w birthday next week.
This is where I am....what should I do?
Did you ever see what happened with gForce? It went all the way to just a day or so before the D would be official and his W had a change of heart and they are doing pretty good now.
The Tostada should not need saving - it is his wife that must have an awakening.
For you Tostada, I hope for a similar success. For me, that would be a serious serious moral dilemma.
I'm going to throw out something kind of crazy. At this point, as I think back, my memory of your situation is that your 180s have been with respect to things that were problems in your marriage. Perhaps you need to do a 180 from the current situation.
How about this, for her birthday, bless her by letting her watch the kid so that you can go out with a female friend. I'm not advocating this, I'm just saying that she's mentally moving on, but, she knows that you are still there and still hoping for a change. Maybe if she sees you truly moving on, it will shock her and bring her around.
I've a friend who has been divorced for 2 years and his xW had a new guy very quickly and she continued to be a regular Cruella DeVille. She turned a lot nicer when Brian got his house in order, his job situation in order and was dating an attractive woman 15 years his xW's junior.
I'm just saying.
Dan
Dan makes a good point - people want what they cant have. It may be that your W may realize she has no fallback plan if you start to move on more.
I don't think its realistic for me to ask my W to watch the kids while I go on a date.
I haven't talked to W for a few weeks and I need to make a decision what to do or not to do for her birthday which is in a few days.
I did buy a pretty boring card. I'm planning on mailing it.
What should I write in it?
I see the group is coming back to the board tonight...
need some help on my W bday....I am thinking of sending her a simple card 'happy bday..miss you...love me'...
or...is there something better to say.???
thanks..
Logically, it makes sense to want to giver her a heartfelt card, but in reality, it did not do me any good - I wrote quite a few long letters and cards. It may be that they eventually go back and read the love letters and cards when they discover that the grass is not necessarily greener, but while they are still in denial and you are the enemy, the card is not going to cause them to have a change of mind.
I really believe that now my W would like a "do over" as I suspect she knows she made the wrong choices and has huge regret. I can only hope that if and when yours comes to a reality wakeup that you will still be there for her and that she has not pushed you past your line in the sand like my W has with me.
BTW... It does not look like this is the Seahawks year.
So shall I not recognize her bday and no card?
I dont know - maybe a simple message in the card that you are wishing her the best and thinking of her. Nothing too mushy.
I hope we can get some more input for you as I am a bit jaded because of my situation. I do know that once the WAS has doubts and realizes that they can lose the connection to you they start to want back.
Tostada, I don't have anything to add really beyond what KK has said. I doubt that there is anything that you can say in the card that will work a positive benefit, but, I think that there are a lot of things you could say that will work against you.
Just my opinion here, but, you getting on with your life without her is in my mind the only thing that has potential to bring her around and no card is going to show her that. I'd get a card from the kids and leave it at that if it were me.
Also, I don't know why it wouldn't be realistic for her to watch the kids while you go out. You don't have to specifically ask if she will watch the kids while you go on a date, just, can you watch the kids on Saturday night, I have plans with a friend. If she won't then get a sitter and go out anyway.
That's my opinion. I understand that you might not be in that place. I also understand that I was in a very different place only a month ago. So, I offer this up as just another option for you to consider.
Dan
Well I sent the card.
Just wrote "happy birthday. I hope you are feeling well and I wish you the best, me".
I like it - simple and sincere.
It will be interesting to see what she writes for you on your birthday. Is that soon?
She ignored my bday, vday, anniv this year. Left all pictures, china, crystal at house when she left. I have been totally vaporized. Sort of like star trek.
The good thing is that you still have a sense of humor!
Just had a long conversation on the phone with W. She wasn't too forthcoming with info. Never asked anything personal about myself.
She's going out of town this weekend. She's staying at a fancy hotel the two of us stayed in together once. I brought it up that she never wanted to go to that city with me. Said I never invited her. She couldn't remember going there with me, nor that I had recommended we go there several times. I said she had a selective memory of us. Then she said something weird. " I only remember the good times". I just replied " that's a good idea, we wouldn't be doing this if you only remembered the good times". What is she saying? She is off the wall.
Anyway, I tried to be nice on the call. She's in such selfish mode its unbelievable. My son has a big sports meeting thu night, on her night with the kids. She said she already had plans, sitter, the whole ball of wax. Then, to not ask me anything personally, think about only her plans, and dish off the kids some more is amazing to me.
Until that selfish part wears off, tostada has no chance.
I thought the WAW's were supposed to only remember the bad times. She is in denial big time.
Can you go instead to the big sports meeting for your son or is she so selfish that she would rather get a sitter than let you take care of them when it is her time?
Until that selfish part wears off, tostada should not want a chance.
I woke up at 5am this morning. Txt W and wished her a happy bday. Wanted to beat everyone to the punch. She replied that she very much appreciated it. She will get that boring card in the mail today.
Then, a bit later, she sent me a nice picture of our daughter all dressed up. This was strange. I just replied that she is as beautiful as her mother. She did not respond to this.
I did set her up for some dbing today. She came by my house to pick up our dog. I left the back door open for her. Knowing she would come in the back door, I put some newly framed pictures of me and my kids in range for her to see. They are great pictures. I'm sure she will notice. Not sure of the effect or how she will respond.
I'm still fired up that she did not ask me one question about myself or my life last night. Man, she is really in her own bubble.
I wanted to post this really quickly before I went to work because Im pretty fired up about it.
Last night was a mandatory meeting for parents for my sons basketball team. W couldnt make it because she had plans for her birthday, which was Wed....this led to her having a sitter last night.
She was telling her friends in the neighborhood that she didnt know it was mandatory and so she arranged for our Son to get a ride there and back. She called me in the afternoon to ask me about this meeting. I was going to go the entire time. However, what she was asking me, she and I had already talked about two nights earlier. She couldnt remember. I was ticked about it, so I never returned her call.
Then...this morning...She is going out of town with the neighbor snake to SF for the weekend. She is staying at a nice hotel that the two of us previously stayed in. She doesnt remember being there with me. Anyway, this whole trip irritates me too. She'd never go with me..but has to run off with this snake and go tear up SF.
This morning, I was up getting ready for work. I hear my garage door go up. Back door opens, and in rushes my labrador. She didnt ring the doorbell, call before she came, stop to say hi, nothing. It couldnt have been less friendly. She's taking her other dog to a kennel. She acquired this dog after she left. So...wondering how to respond to her about this. It's got me pretty cranked up how unfriendly and rude this was.
Also...never got a reply about the card or telling her my daughter looked as beautiful as her mom.
She's so brainwashed by this snake of a woman I cannot believe it. Has her so cocooned in selfish world its unbelievable.
Im wondering if it would be bad if I send W a goodbye letter?
Hi there Tostada
IMO that really depends how much you need to have a conclusion to this - if you can live your life happy but with the door open a teeny crack then I would say no cos the goodbye letter might seal it for your W, although I understand you must feel that it is already sealed from her pov. If on the other hand, you need to bring things to a conclusion I think a letter would likely achieve that - but there may be no going back from that position.
Perhaps you are thinking it could have a positive effect - of getting her to take a look at the reality of the situation? I'm not sure it would do that.
Best - GFI
Tostada,
At this point, I do not think there would be any advantage to writing a letter. I am really not in favour of letters.
What are you trying to accomplish by writing her a letter? What is your goal...how are you expecting her to react to it?
I kinda wanted to write out my point of view.
It seems to me the trend of all her excuses were that she didnt feel loved by me. I had never heard that from her and am totally pissed off that she could just cold quit our marriage without truly telling me what she needed. I am sorry after learning what the issues are that I could not or was not allowed to make an effort to satisfy them. Thats what ticks me off the most.
Now...we basically have no contact, she shows absolutely no interest in even talking to me, and we are completely over the cliff on divorce. I dont know how to turn her head on this race.
I was watching Dr. Phil last night and they had this couple on there. The W had filed for D. Yet, even though the DAM had cheated on her many times, said completely stupid stuff on the show, for some reason the pregnant W still wanted to see if they could possibly work it out. It was so obvious this guy was a jerk and Dr. Phil was totally embarrassing him, I think he finally convinced the W that she should go ahead with the D.
My point of view is I never had any issues like this with my W. Yet, she doesnt love me anymore and now must hit the road. No questions asked..just see ya...
Tostada,
You are not alone here....we are all pretty much in the same boat. This was totally unexpected (or pretty close to it). In my case and in most others I think, there is another person involved. If that person is still around, turning this around is near impossible. I think you need to get to a place where you have to accept what is happening. Do you think I understand my W's actions in the last 1.5 years? I have to accept that she lost it big time .... back somewhat but not all the way. During the time that my W was way out there, a baseball bat to her forehead would not have changed anything, let alone a letter. In my opinion and for what it is worth, the day she feels that you have detached is the day she "MAY" have second thoughts.
Sorry to be so blunt my friend but that is the reality of our situations.
I think there was another person, and this pushed her over the edge that perhaps the grass could be greener. I dont think this person is around anymore...could be wrong. The grass could have been greener right here if she just would have communicated her needs. Now..she will move on to yellow grass with patches of green.
I dont want this, dont think its fair, think she's being stupid, inpatient, spontaneous, and a whole bunch of other crap...there...hows that for a small venting session.
I hear you Tostada. I've have been there also and then some....and I feel for you. The bottom line is ....and it pains me to say this...it does not matter what you want right now. hell it doesn't even matter what you think about fairness or any other issue. She is in control and there is very little that you can do to from what i gather to change things in the short term. There is alot you can do however to guarantee that she will keep going in the other direction. I know his is not very positive but it is my reality and that of many others i have followed here. Just make sure that when she is ready to perhaps be more shall we say "amicable" that the Tostada she sees is one that reminds her of the pre bomb days.
In the meantime, vent away in this forum my friend and try to do things that make you happy.
What John is saying is so true. A letter will not bring her back. She has to figure out on her own what she wants.
I dont want this, dont think its fair, think she's being stupid, inpatient, spontaneous, and a whole bunch of other crap...there...hows that for a small venting session.
You keep thinking this and pretty soon you are going to start wondering why you want such a woman back in the first place. You want what she once was.
How are the kids doing?
My kids seem to be doing pretty well. My daughter called me last night from W house. I could hear W in the background nagging on her...my daughter says 'someone is really cranky, I'll call you tonight from my bed'...pretty funny. She did call me later to say goodnight...
As you know I did send my W a bday card. Didnt put much on the card, hope you are feeling ok, wish you the best. We did talk on the phone prior to her bday and she was giving me all the plans of the event of the queen...I think she had a few bottles of wine in her. We talked about her trip to SF. She never really wanted to go with me there when I proposed a trip and she couldnt remember even being there with me on a prior trip. She was going to stay in the same hotel we stayed in, but couldnt remember the trip. Just amazing.
I have basically been ignoring her txts, emails, voicemails. I dont even reply. Forget it...whats the point.
So..today I get this:
"Hi there - I rarely check my mail...I know you are not surprised. Thank you very much for the birthday card. I had a really good birthday. 22 girlfriends joined me for dinner on Thursday night at the xxx restraunt. It was really nice to see so many people come. XX, XX and I had a blast in San Francisco...I haven't laughed that hard in a long time. It felt good.
Hope all is well with you."
I'm not sure what to think of this...probably not much and I havent really contemplated a reply, thinking of no reply. I feel like she is trying to tell me she's as popular as ever, life is great, yadda yadda yadda......and, I'm thinking the insecure side is showing a little too. She cant believe all her friends showed up and that the laughing is making her feel good...she must not be soooo happy if she hasnt laughed lately.
I'm sure she doesnt like me ignoring her either...too bad.
That's right, she is trying to convince herself by convincing you that life is all roses. Keep ignoring her. It will preserve your mental sanity and make her wonder why you don't care any more which will put additional stress on her.
Dan
well...im moving into full negotiation of mediation with W of D on the final segment.
my emotions just totally suck right now...this isnt what i want...
this is the worst night emotionally I have had in quite some time. I loved my W. This isnt what I want.
I havent talked to her for several weeks. she sent me an email scorching me because my L asked her L what year her car was. it's all my fault of course. I didnt ask for any of this. she is so screwed up. I just wish she was who she was a couple years ago. she's messed up and a couple people helped her get that way.
there's a picture in my office of her that I carried around in my wallet for a long time. I loved my W a lot. she loved me. I wish we had that back.
hi there Tostada...of course you love your wife...that goes without saying - I guess what you find difficult is how she's acting and the decisions she's making...
What are your options in this? From your posts it comes across as if you have decided not to do anything...just "check out"...
What could you do that is positive - even if for you only? In DB terms - is there anything you could try that is different? An observer gets the impression that whats going on at the moment isn't working...
I know it seems like things are inevitable right now but keep going...even if just for yourself and your kids -- not other motivation needed!
Best - GFI
Thanks GFI.
Yesterday I had to meet with my L for awhile about financial stuff. We have mediation next week, so it all the details have to be written out by Tuesday. She's not going to like it one bit, I'm certain of that. If it gets that far she will have to deal with the consequences of her decision.
Yesterday when I got home, she followed me down the driveway. She actually came up to talk to me...was being really nice, etc. She wanted some game tix a few weeks from now from me, I just replied 'I dont know'...she kept asking in different methods, I kept replying with 'I dont know'..she got real mad and stormed off. Then later sent me an email saying we were still legally married and they were technically half hers. Actually, not the case since I paid for them since legal separation. Anyway, the point isnt the tix, it's the idea that she was trying to be really nice to me I guess. She seems really stressed. The financial part of this deal is not going to be in her favor and I think she's realizing that.
My L did tell me her L told her that the card I gave her for her birthday made a big impact. whatever that means. she said it meant a lot to her...I really wonder why? I find it interesting how she communicated that back to me. She wanted me to know, but didnt want to tell me that.
I feel if we get to Tuesday and into Mediation, we will have crossed the point of no return. Thus, with no change, I wrote her a two page handwritten letter. Not really a good bye letter, but it did have a bunch of stuff about how I felt, what I was so proud of, what she meant to me, etc. I didnt put in anything negative about her, her behavior, or her friends. I taped it to her front door very early this morning. I havent heard anything from her yet about the letter.
My guess is I will be 2x4'd pretty good for this. But, if the Bday card was a big deal, maybe this will help. Nothing has changed, no progress made, so I wanted to do it.
Tostada - right now I bet you feel like you have nothing to lose and i certainly will not criticize you for that - given what must be restricted range of options right now i think that was a good move...I will keep my eye out for any reports on her reaction.
Is there anything else you could try?
best - GFI
I could go streaking through the neighborhood like Frank the Tank....
LMAO!!!
Why not? Like I say - you have nothing to lose!
Its only over when you want it to be...
best - GFI
Hey Tostada, I wouldn't 2x4 you over the letter. It seemed you were obsessing about the card and I don't think any of us thought this one or that one would change things. However, as you are feeling that there really isn't anything to lose, in that case, I heartfelt letter can help bring you closure and just may have a small impact on your wife.
Maybe I should try that.
D
sun am update...no reaction....
W has totally ignored Letter.
I did receive a couple emails from her today..they were all document related. We both have to submit our 'positions' tomorrow for mediation on Fri.
She is going to be totally pissed at my position, I guarantee it. But, this is her choice and she will have to deal with the consequences of that choice. I can tell by her questions and needs that she has not been coached very well about this and is very naive what the consequences will be.
I am certain as of tomorrow, there is no turning back.
The legal stuff sure does throw a monkey wrench into it. But just remember what happed with gForce - they got right up to the final day and she had a huge change of heart.
The one thing you must be wary of is if she does get a bad deal that she does not change her mind and want back because of just it. You want her only back for her love of you.
all I ever wanted in this deal was an opportunity to exist where we knew the issues. she literally quit cold turkey. I have heard the reasons change like the wind. If she did flip and change her mind, i think it would take awhile of 'trying' before I totally put all my chips back in the middle. All I wanted to do was to 'find out' if what we knew now would change things. Her quitting cold turkey is going to emphasize the crappy deal she's going to end up with. If we went through a 'trying' phase and both agreed at the end that it wont work, then I'm sure I would have been much more amicable at the end. But being the way it is now, I'm going to totally protect myself and my kids. She's going to be a hot head about it I'm sure...because her divorced buddies got everything they wanted in their divorces from their husbands....it's going to be quite different here.
I rec'd a response to my letter. She mailed me a typed letter yesterday.
It's basically a good bye letter. She explains how when she met me she was an insecure person that didnt really know her direction. I was able to bring her security and comfort. She wasnt sure if anyone would really want to be with her and I gave her that. She did say I was a great, funny, kind, sensitive person that could put up with her.
Then she goes on to say she has grown so much over the years. She finally knows what she wants. She didnt think we had a great relationship when we got married, but thought we could develop that (what a novel idea and I totally disagree with that). She states that I wasnt much of a communicator, says she could have tried harder on our relationship with me, but knew in the end it wasnt what she needed. She says she will not settle for anything less than what she wants.
She compares our relationship to some other couples in the neighborhood. In my opinion, it's a crappy comparison, because we arent too different than they are. She says we didnt have love and respect between us. She brings up a couple examples of events in our past, such as spending money, etc. She agrees that she did ignore me at times.
Her biggest hangup is she thinks we are too different. Yes, we do have differences, but I think we complement each other very well. It wouldnt have worked for 18yrs if that wasnt true.. She says I am unable to change, maybe I could, but she wouldnt want to change me, and doesnt want anyone to change her. Yet she agrees she has many faults. In the end, she basically says she does not have a connection with me. She does finally admit that our marriage wasnt all bad and she can admit that now...was sorry she couldnt earlier.
She also says I have hurt her for things I have said or done to her. I have no idea what those are. She says she feels very guilty for hurting me and knows what she is doing is right for both of us. She also says she knows we could work things out and try harder, but I deserve better.
Anyway...I replied to her letter pretty quickly. There is much change in her letter from her continued stance. But in the end, she's convinced were too different. I am amazed that she could admit we could work it out, try harder. But she has totally quit.
She did not reply to my reply, nor would she answer her phone when I called.
We each submitted paperwork yesterday for mediation. I'm sure she's really pissed about that too....since we are very far apart on some issues.
Oh well...I tried my best I guess. I dont think she has really too many good reasons to get divorced. She brings up some examples of problems between us. To me, they are all things that could be worked out with good communication. As for our differences, we all have differences. Thats what makes the world go round. Its how you deal with them that makes relationships work. Running from your problems never really solves anything.
You did give it your best, but she wants to go her own way now.
I agree with you - differences attract each other. Two people of like mind are not going to necessarily make for the best relationship.
She is not responding to you out of guilt. She knows that her justification for a divorce is very weak and is probably afraid for any confrontation that might try to sway her decision.
She is a quitter now, but at least she has changed some and acknowleges the good parts of your marriage. With more time and the hard knocks of life, she may come to realize that you and her were the best thing and she may live to regret running away when the going got tough.
I had my mediation with my W on Friday. I got there at 9am, left at 5:45pm.
We made no agreements on financial issues.
She negotiates out of emotion, will not budge on issues or items she doesnt believe is right, or best for her.
I wont negotiate on issues or items that are not supported by facts or documents. I just dont see why I would have to budge much if it's supported by the facts.
We did trade offers. She was just tossing out numbers based upon what she thinks is correct. I dont know if she's getting bad advice from her attorney, of if she's just not listening. My guess is she's not listening.
My L thought this was all ludicrous and a complete waste of time. I guess right now we are on path for a court date unless they come back with some sort of offer soon. Based upon what went on for 9 hours and her refusal to accept any logic, I would not expect an offer.
I was really sad because I was certain she would accept the final offer of the day. I was very surprised she did not. Thus, she has significant exposure in court. I do as well, but probably not as much as she does. She was a fool to not take what we offered.
She continues to not communicate with me.
I am amazed that what she is choosing will make her happier. We did not have a bad marriage, I am convinced. She just thinks the grass would be greener with someone else. She gave up her house, the potential to retire early, ability to travel well, her kids 50% of the time, many friends, will now have to work full time for a long time, and created a lot of stress for herself; just so she could find out. That is totally overwhelming for me to think what she's willing to give up to not be with me. That's the reality of it all.
same ol. W can be a total witch to me or sometimes act like nothing happened.
I went over and dropped off my kids and their stuff last Wed night. She couldnt have been a bigger, colder witch to me.
Then, Sat, we were at our sons basketball games. She came up and talked to me after the first game, as if we knew each other, what a concept. Then for game 2, she sat by herself away from everyone else. Very strange behavior.
She did send over an offer after mediation. It was just like all her offers at mediation. We told them we were going to go to trial. Then...we decided to make another offer, so we are waiting to hear about that.
Anyway...I'm just amazed at what she has chosen, how she treats me, etc...She doesnt look so good, doesnt seem happy. I'm wondering if she's starting to realize the consequences of her decisions.
Going back and forth with counter offers is how we did it and when we got to the judge for a pre trial hearing, all we had left was for me to throw in an additional $2400.
My STBXW has chosen her crappy path in life too. Reality is starting to bite her in the ass.
well here I am again.
W and I have settled on all financial issues, parenting, etc....i bawled my eyes out for about a half hour, drank like a fish...but I'm ok now. this was before thanksgiving.
W this week wanted the kids for a certain night next week to take them to a party. She had been totally ignoring anything I sent to her, then she sends me a 'nice' kiss ass email to try and get the kids for a night. I just simply replied that based upon her behavior towards me and that she really is only nice when she needs something from me, she chose to not have a family on that day, sorry...(it was my day with the kids).
then....I get this email....
"You're right...I did choose to give up on our family. I made a mistake. Our family is broken because of me. I am sorry. But there is nothing I can do at this point. I fell out of love and I can't force my feelings. And quite honestly, when you act like this, it is really hard to even start to move in that direction. I am only doing this for the kids. You get to make these decisions when they are with you and so you get control."
finally...she admits its all a mistake? I dont know what to think about this, but she is certainly sounding like she's ok living with the consequences. Its the classic ilybnilwy line and that the WAW at some point figures out they made a mistake, but cannot figure out how to fix it..so quitting is just easier I guess. How frustrating.
W has sent me a couple petty emails tonight on some bills, yet she owes me money. And, while talking to D9 on the phone, she had her drop the phone and come to me to see if I could take her to gymnastics and buy her a new outfit. My D9 doesn't even take gymnastics. Its all revenge to make me busy on my nights with my kids because I wouldn't let her have the kids on one of my nights.
Anyway, I'm just venting because she's driving me nuts. She won't even acknowledge her admitting to this "mistake". She's mentally ill. I don't even think she remembers saying it.
Hello Tostada
I am sorry to see that your M has reached this point and I hope you can hold things together and come through ok.
If I may offer some observations from you previous post, I think your W offers you a big clue in her feelings with this line.
" I fell out of love and I can't force my feelings. And quite honestly, when you act like this, it is really hard to even start to move in that direction.
She sees you as not having changed so why should she consider any sort of reconciliation.
From what I just read your W acts with pettiness and then you respond with pettiness, your actions then push her further away and W will only see your actions not hers. So in her eyes you are the one being mean and cruel not her.
On the other point of W admitting she made a mistake, I read it slightly differently, I read it as her just responding to you in a way to tell you what you want to hear, and not how she actually feels. (Tell him I made a mistake then it may shut him up).
I think your way forward is to try to cultivate a friendship with W even if she is being mean spirited and petty. That doesn't mean bow to her every request, but it does mean you have to keep showing her your good and attractive side even in the face of hostile behaviour. It will be hard work but that's what you need to do.
Take care for now
Lanzo
It's very difficult to forge and cultivate a friendship with someone that is deliberately trying to hurt you.
There's not much I can do. I have played all my cards and made as much effort as I possibly could. I dont know what else to do but leave the table.
Hey Tostada,
Sorry to hear that things have not improved but even more sorry that you are still agressive or angry....
I used to be accused of that often. T, you need to answer the following question. Do you really want your W back? If the answer is yea, then you HAVE TO find a way to become friends. Put your ego and animosity aside. It's not about who is right or wrong, it's about do YOU still want to try.
If the answer is no, than you should not care what she thinks about you as long as the kids do not suffer in any way.
Take it easy T,
J210
I am angry..not sure about agressive. I guess I have been agressive in letting her know how I feel. Obviously that got me no where. I would love to have a great loving relationship with my wife. but, i am having a really hard time trying to rationalize supporting her decision and making it all rosy for her.
T
In or out ??
In: Get with the friendship program (Read up on GFI for some tips).
Out: Move on but look after your kid.(Read up on John210 for some tips).
Lanzo
I am in, but it has to come from her. I have been on board for over a year, with no movement on her part towards me at all.
truly, how do i get with the friendship program when she treats me like crap. I couldnt get on that program with anyone that treats me like that. i certainly dont want her to be rewarded for her decision. I guess I'm in, but acting like I'm out. I dont know what to do...confused, frustrated, giving up I guess.
t,
Reread your last post and answer the question...in or out and please leave out the buts!
I seriously doubt that you will see any movement on her part if you continue to act the way you have described here. Don't get me wrong T, I feel for you but I get the sense that you are approaching this all wrong. I would suggest that if you have been on board for a year, one of two things is happening. She is so far gone that NOTHING can bring her back OR you have not been doing a good enough job. After one year it should not be too difficult to get your XW to at least stop treating you like crap.
my d will be final in 2 weeks. i guess I'm out.
now try leaving ou the i guess....
Tostada,
Would it have been inconvenient to have let your W have the kids for that party? Or did you not let her have them out of spite? I would think you could negotiate and co-parent together better.
You need to lose the anger and blame. It will get you no where. Remember, when you argue with a woman, if you lose you lose and if you win you still lose.
Your just going to have to act "As If" up to the point of the D being final and beyond. It sucks, but wallowing in self pity and anger will not let you and the kids move on. She may regret this in the future after it is all done, but it is not your concern.
she thinks getting a D will be all fine and dandy..we'll just live near each other and it will all be great. I felt like she was taking advantage of me on that party. she left for NYC last week then discovered that she had responsibility for the kids while she was out of town. Then, just assumed I would take them as if I'm the designated helper for her. Of course I took them, it wasnt an inconvenience but its the fact that she thinks she can just whip off wherever she wants to go shopping and I'll stick around and watch the kids for her. She was taking advantage.
That party is on a Tue night. She has the kids that prior weekend, the kids come here after school on Mon and return to her on Wed. She has plenty of time and all her relatives know the deal she has created for herself. I'm sure she just told them it would be no big deal and she could just take them whenever she wants. Its not an inconvenience and I'm sure I'm playing this all wrong, but, there are consequences to her actions. It's not all great and perfect now. The point of it is she has been a total jerk to me. Then I get this very nice email from her about this. Now because she wants something from me, she has to be all nice. That's what ticked me off. She has ignored me and blown me off over and over. I dont think me caving into her every need and wish right now is going to change anything.
I'm not sure I understand what acting 'as if' means...you mean act as if im divorced?
I'm not wallowing in my own self pity. Yes, I hate this. I am angry at her for the reasons and what she has done. We didnt have a terrible marriage. Sure, we could have worked on stuff. We should have worked on stuff. But quitting is whats pissed me off. We didnt work on anything. She just quit.
It's impossible dealing with her impatience, compulsiveness. Tonight she sent me an email regarding some bills. She just flat out makes decisions on these but has no right to. I responded very blandly, tried not to 'be right' about anything or really even argue. But, she is so impatient and comes to very quick decisions without thinking them through. She can just fly off the handle in a second, be very nice on a different day. Seems like I'm dealing with a different person all the time.
thats my rant. I'm sure I sound angry because I am very angry. I dont think she and I deserve this and I dont know how to fix it. I know everyone is trying to help me, as are people in my neighborhood that understand us both. But, seems like she's the one nobody understands.
hey t,i always tried to read your posts because i know they come from the heart and you are a little rough around the edges. i have a couple of friends that you remind me of. please trust me when i tell you that i felt the same way that you do. nothing you say here is new to me...i've felt it and read it on other threads...hell i even lived it when my best friend's wife left him eight years ago. BUT ...you knew there was a BUT didn't you, you need to mellow out. You would be better off if you stopped focusing on your W. Is it easy? Fu## no! For your kids sake and for yours...try to relax. i think your number one goal should be to become friends with her again...because if you do not get there the rest (if you are still interested) is unattainable. So when Kerry says act as if, act as if she can not affect you, act as if she is a sick friend if you have to...but act like a friend even though she does not act like one. When she does send you a nice e-mail regardless of her ulterior motives, be nice back...someone has to make the first move, why not you T?
I'm reading, listening, and appreciate the suggestions.
I'm have really been thinking all night. What does "rough around the edges" mean?
I will treat her like she's sick. But, usually when she's nice, it creates some sort of problem.
she claimed in her reply to you that there was "nothing she could do".
that is false. there are things she could do.
also about the whole "can't force feelings" thing .
there ARE things she can do but you have to
mention what they are. maybe she really doesn't know.
if you can come up with some SHORT reply to her email quoting those bits ot her email perhaps you could get somewhere. maybe reference a specific book that addresses marriage reconciliation strategies.
sometimes peole will respond to short stuff, where they might tune out longer things.
Do you have any recommendations of something I should suggest to her?
I did say that people go through these situations all the time. I never asked her to force her feelings, but to research what she's going through. Many feel as she does, but have patience, figure out the issues, fall back in love, and have much better relationships than they ever have. I asked her to research ilybnilwy.
Anyway, I'm sure the friendship approach is the best long erm solution. But maybe on her xmas vacation she might read a short book. Any suggestions?
Hey T,
By all means you can suggest that your W does some reading, but at this moment in time I don't think it is about her, I think it is about you and your issues (and I use issues in the politest sense).
I think you need to get back to basic DB principles and work on you. What could you do to make you a happy person, what could you do to make yourself an attractive prospect. What could you do to make yourself someone W wants to hang with.
Could you loose the anger, hurt, bitterness, and frustration you are feeling. Could you respond to W with kindness when she is obviously being mean to you. Could you respond to her without sarcasm, when she's being nice for her own gain. Can you accept her current situation and remain friendly. These are you issues and the things you need to deal with.
John210 has just past the stage that you are in so listen to him he talks from experience and with sense. My view is you can't make W read something and then she suddenly wises up on the mistakes she has made, but you can improve you and hope it turns her head in your direction, read the latest on Kerry K and see how things can turn.
As cr@p as it sounds you have to be the one to make the first move and do all of the work. Other wise you will be permanently in the situation you are in now and the mistake your W thinks she has made now won't seem like a mistake at all.
Come on T, turn the tide and make that move.
Lanzo
PS
I'm have really been thinking all night. What does "rough around the edges" mean?
You tell it as it is a don't sugar coat things for W
"Could you loose the anger, hurt, bitterness, and frustration you are feeling. Could you respond to W with kindness when she is obviously being mean to you. Could you respond to her without sarcasm, when she's being nice for her own gain. Can you accept her current situation and remain friendly. These are you issues and the things you need to deal with."
Good advice Lan IF it works. In some cases showing the W you need her by trying to be "friends" will cause her to dig her heals in some more or see thru' the acting "as-if" or think that he finally is making it easier for me to D. In Kerry's case when he clearly dumped W for G40 she wanted back - taking that train trip to 'think' and months of Kerry's "strength and honor" did squat. I'd say staying calm and detaching from the drama and acting "as if" you don't give a FU&? may be the first step. And *actually* not giving a FU&? is probably the best solution to this problem. While T may have some "issues" most of these WAW don't have the desire to stay married regardless of the "work" put in on their behalf.
Hi Fb2,
I see we both speak from our own experiences and from different ends of the spectrum,so it's good we can offer T our varid opinions. I think you are right that if a WAW is determined to go, well she's gone. However if T wants to turn things round i think it's clear he needs to do somthing different cos what he is doing now isn't working. So if its "act as if" or kick her to the kerb and find a new partner or become her bestist buddy, somthing has to change.
I agree with your point that T acting as if he really didn't give a fook is a good step forward, but how close is he to that. I would also add that not giving a fook plus improving himself and his own well being will set him well on his way and he may find that he doesn't actually want W back anyway or she may come beating down his door wanting back in.
So I would say "Stop going down cheeseless tunnels", "Work on you", "Stop doing what doesn't work", "act as if", "Turn a few 180's" all DB cliches , but all basic DB principles.
Lanzo
It seems to me in remembering J210 and Kerry's situations that theirs only turned when they left her behind.....didnt matter what they did to them anymore, they just went about their business.
I believe I tried this over the summer. I totally left her alone. I havent been contacter her at all. But one thing I have done consistently is rode a hard bargain. I have always wanted her to realize or experience the consequences of being divorced just because she always believed it would be perfectly rosy for everyone involved. 'the kids will be fine', 'so and so's divorced worked out great', etc....
She is all over the place. Sometimes she's nice, apologetic. Sometimes she's attacking, mean, angry, temper, etc. Last night I saw this version of her. I think it's a reaction to me bringing up that she has admitted making a mistake.
Regardless...I think right now this is my plan. Focus on myself. However, sometime next week I am going to drop off that book at her house. I'm going to tell her I know she has been looking all over town for what to give me for xmas. And I'm going to tell her the present is for me is for her to read this book. I will be very nice about it. You guys are going to slash me up with swords over this I'm sure...but, I have my kids all next week, then she's taking them to maui the week after. maybe she'll read the book while she's there. I think I'll wrap it in a book cover so she'll feel comfortable reading the book without anyone noticing. Youre going to say this isnt focusing on myself. I have tried so hard to do this over the summer. I got nowhere with her. It may be that she is so far gone and determined, it doesnt matter what I do. But, I think she showed a crack in her armor by telling me she made a mistake and doesnt really know what to do. I think she showed a crack in criticizing my behavior. How I pry open that crack is the mystery.
Hey Tostada, I think in this last post, you sound as healthy as you have in months. Maybe she'll read the book, maybe she won't as long as you have no expectation in that direction, it will be OK.
Peace
Dan
I'm trying my best to go with the flow.
My W signed my D up for gymnastics on tuesday nights, which is one of my nights with my kids. I think its great for my D. But, W never contacted me or talked to me about this at all, my daughter told me about it. Its sort of a bummer its on my night with the kids as I don't get to spend that night with either of them. I have to drive her there. My son doesn't want to go on the ride. So basically were gone for a few hours. On monday nights my son is at bball practice, so I am not going to really be able to see him much on mondays or tuesday nights now. It sounds sort of selfish, but being that my time is cut in half with them to start with, each day becomes that much more valuable to me. I guess its frustrating shed just sign her up on my night without even consulting me. Don't get me wrong, I love that my kids are doing this. I just sorta feel she's taking advantage of me.
Now, going with the flow. I didn't email her or start any confrontation at all. I guess the 180 would be to contact her and tell her how excited I am about it. Not sure I could do it without a certain level of sarcasm. Oh well.
Hi there Tostada - under the circumstances it takes a will of iron not to be drawn deeper into "the game" - my first thought would have been to sign D up for something on W's night!
But of course that gains nothing but short term satisfaction and likely would create problems further on down the line as well as upping the stakes...
I know you desperately will want to make sure things are fair and this feels like things have tipped - but if you can, does it help to see things from your D's POV? Is there anything you and S can do while your D is involved in that class? Even if it involves taking a ball along to kick? Tennis, swimming, crosswords - anything will do if you can get your S interested...
The least damaging way of viewing this for you is likely to be to go with the flow and just remember this as showing your flexibility and goodwill for some time in the future when you might need it reciprocating...
I have to say that when I stopped fighting my wife on every issue, things became an awful lot calmer and easier for me - even though I had to flex in some ways I found "challenging". In my experience goodwill breeds goodwill...and that, I read somewhere, is the cornerstone of friendship...
Best - GFI
Hey T,
By no means do i mean to downplay your feelings here...nor do i profess to have solutions. It dawned on me just now that your latest post does not contain anything to really get mad at your wife about. The reason i feel this way is that i have little animosity towards your wife...i have no emotional baggage. i suggest that we should all strive to get to this level of detachment in our own sitches. It is extremely difficult to get there, I know.....trust me. It will do you alot of good if you could at least try to get there. Don't sweat the small stuff and enjoy your kids!
I have to say that when I stopped fighting my wife on every issue, things became an awful lot calmer and easier for me - even though I had to flex in some ways I found "challenging". In my experience goodwill breeds goodwill...and that, I read somewhere, is the cornerstone of friendship...
Don't sweat the small stuff and enjoy your kids!
A couple of positive quotes for you to think about.
That party is on a Tue night. She has the kids that prior weekend, the kids come here after school on Mon and return to her on Wed. She has plenty of time and all her relatives know the deal she has created for herself. I'm sure she just told them it would be no big deal and she could just take them whenever she wants. Its not an inconvenience and I'm sure I'm playing this all wrong, but, there are consequences to her actions. It's not all great and perfect now. The point of it is she has been a total jerk to me. Then I get this very nice email from her about this. Now because she wants something from me, she has to be all nice. That's what ticked me off. She has ignored me and blown me off over and over. I dont think me caving into her every need and wish right now is going to change anything.
I'm not trying to down play things but this is the type of drama you need to get away from, this is the small stuff (small to us) that you shouldn't sweat on. These are the type on things you shouldn't fight on.
Enjoy your time with the kids and try to find some way to maximise it and make it enjoyable for all.
Take care T
Lanzo
Wow. What a bitch!
I'd say talk with your daughter, tell her you want to spend those nights with HER, and then tell your wife "no i will not waste my precious time with my daughter like this, especially since you did not even ask me. she will not be going to gymnastics on my night".
Scarred,
Have you come on this board to give serious advice or are you a WUM (Wind up Merchant) intent on stirring up arguments. I see from your other posts that somone else has asked you a similar question in a more polite manner.
Lan
PS. T Sorry for the interjection.
ok...go with the flow tostada here....
i havent responded to W yet...but listen to this.
tonight...W takes Son and Daughter to basketball game. I am also at game as I have season tix...son is there because he works for team.....he could have gone with me, but it's her weekend so she used his tix and went. I run into a friend at halftime says W leaving and my son is going home with him and his son...this is former husband of w best friend who bailed on her husband too...would I rather take him home? sure I would..so I do...
so...during the game, she sends me an email saying thanks for bringing him home and to bring him right home after the game as she has dinner for him. I had to take a friend home after the game and my son said he was starving..so he and I went and got some food. W became irritated and started sending me emails asking where we are, that I better not have fed him, and that all this is completely unacceptable, blah blah blah....
so...how can she dictate on when he's coming home if she cannot even do it herself? isnt she sort of at the mercy of the person that's helping her out? It's pretty amazing to me that she'd leave him behind.
just going with the flow.....
Tostada,
Did you enjoy the game and the "extra" time you spent with your son?
I really did enjoy the extra time..
I guess your point is to not worry about what she does....but, when you get emails like that from her about how irresponsible she is and how it effects my kids, it gets on your nerves.
I know how you feel....believe me, alot of things that my W does gets on my nerves...but....it does us no good to dwell on it. It's nice to vent here though....we have no choice but to let it go. In my case anyway, the more things she does that get on my nerves, the more I realize that I need to continue on the path of moving on. I try to take the high road (usually i just shrug it off)....unless her actions are really affecting my daughter, I let it slide.
I was just checking my home voice mails...usually dont because everything comes through my cell phone.
there was a scorching vm from W on Sunday night regarding the events surrounding that game....she spelled out the word 'respect' and said it was totally completely uncalled for and that I should have had him there right away after the game, that I need to grow up, and that the kids will be late on their next dropoff date (which goes against a court order)...she really blew her top....nice temper.
I just heard it. In fact, I sorta laughed listening to it. I'm not going to reply...just going with the flow...Ha!
Hi Tostada -
I like the go with the flow attitude.
Sounds like the current version of your W is not much of a catch. What a drama queen in making such a big deal out of getting some food for your hungry boy.
Here is a better version of how to spell the word respect...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kkgQHcdlZU
Tostada:
I've just read through your thread - and see that you've been through a tough couple of months (and more). One thing I can offer, and it's hard to accept as well, is that your W seems to be in a lot of pain and confusion herself - and may even be going through something of a MLC. Go back and read the MLC section of DR - it's about men mostly - but, oh my, if it doesn't make a lot of sense of some of the WAWs here (including my own).
Sometimes, we reach a point with our S's where nothing we do is enough for them - no DBing, no changes, no 180s, nothing - and it's just about them and their perspectives - often times (at least from what I've seen on this board) those perspectives than get defined by this urgent need to project onto the LBS (you) all the stuff they're struggling with and angry about in themselves. For instance, your W shows you a lack of respect - and then screams at you about respect. Yet it's a simplistic summary of your situation - but I mention it because for me, once I stopped taking my W's comments and actions personally, I found myself seeing her for a person that's suffering a lot on her own - and it let me love her in a peaceful way - as I learned more and more about how to detach.
Anger is your enemy in this process - whether or not your M reconciles - anger poisons you - and usually shows up as a way of keeping you (me) from seeing things that you would rather not admit...often times that anger can be masking feelings of shame or inadequacy - but it's much easier to focus on the anger and the person we blame for that anger - than on ourselves...and that's where the real work comes in - working on you - for you - and letting go of your wife so that you can improve yourself.
I think it's that self-improvement that sometimes leads men to find new partners after the WAW has really walked - and that's when the WAW notices, hey, wait a minute, look at him, he's actually a good, decent man...since taking care of oneself and shedding anger really does make us better men...FWIW...
-Carlos.
thanks healthy dad..well put.
I do have anger and it is much easier to blame her for me being angry at the whole situation. I hate what she's done to us and our families. I do have shame. This is a very humbling process. To me, its embarrassing. I failed for some reason and I didnt know I was failing until the end. I dont want people to think Im a raging lunatic behind the scenes. I am not at all. I'm a really good person. I'm a great father, I'm great in the community, I have a great job. I was great to my W. Maybe not perfect and maybe I didnt speak her LL very well, but darn it, I was a good husband.
Its true that I cannot do enough. She turns everything I do into an attack on her. She turns it into 'your hurting the kids'. I didnt choose this, I'm not the one hurting the kids.
I find some people on this board have been separated for a year or more. I am on my 8th month. Whats troubling to me is my W filed for D before we were even separated. Before we could even discuss there was a problem..she just said it's over, I'm filing. That impatience really bothers me. Its like I never got a fair shake to work through it. I felt I was owed more than that. I felt being together almost 18yrs, I deserved more respect than that.
I do listen to everyones opinions. This is a tough time, even though I feel like one of the veterans on this board. Wish I wasnt. This will be my second holiday season under duress. Last year we spent it together as a family. She wore my present for three days, then gave it back to me saying she didnt think I'd want her to wear it. I had to return it. That was embarrassing. This year we will be apart. I get my kids in the morning, she gets them in the evening and the following week. That week will be hell, I'm sure of it. I'm already out of crown royal and may set the december record. I'm not an alcoholic, but being out of crown is a good thing and a bad thing.
I can try to detach the best I can...the problem is I still love my wife even though I get pissed at her choices. She gets under my skin in a hurry when I feel she's taking advantage for some reason. I wont let her do that (take advantage). I make sure she realizes the consequences of the situation, she needs to experience that. She made choices. She cant have it both ways.
Tostada, I agree with everything you say....everything and i may add that your W is an ungrateful selfish person who blindsided you and continues to piss you off. But....you still love her. There are no guarantees in life ....I know....however, if you continue to act this way, there is no way that your W will even attempt to get close to you....all this is my opinion of course. Not only that but the bitterness will poison you little by little.
So my friend, you can either choose to be right or choose to maybe earn another shot (i know you should not have to earn it....you deserve it....but that is not reality right now)....it is your choice amigo.
Tostada, good response to Carlos's excellent post. I feel for your situation. From what you have told us, you and your W have hardly seen each other during the separation, but yet she still holds this contempt or anger towards you. She has some issues to deal with on her own as no one should hold such venom towards another that they used to live with for so long. I so wish she realizes the wrong path she is taking far sooner than my W did.
Just as Carlos and John say, you need to live your life on your and with the kids when you have them as if your W is not going to return. The only way she might consider coming back is if you are a happy guy. It is not an easy task, but I believe you can do it.
talk about things getting under your skin...
just heard from my L that my W is going to change her name back to her maiden name. ouch.
Tostada,
I can fully understand your frustration about your wife not allowing you a chance to try and work this out, my wife said the exact same thing. It is a common thread on here. Just let that go. You can beat yourself up over this forever. It just does not matter.She had been thinking about leaving you for sometime, she just did not bother too let you know.My wife is also changing back to her maiden name. I asked her why, she said she did not think I would want her to have my name, becuase of what my first wife did. ?????, I just let it go.It did hurt, for a week or so.
My second Christmas with this whole mess also.She will probably tag along when we go to grandmas house.Then she is leaving to go see her mother in Washington State.One day at a time.Let go of the anger, have a peaceful Christmas.
Tostada:
I can relate so well to your feelings of shame and failure - that's what hit me right away when my W started talking about divorce. Don't know if you noticed from my signature - but this is my second marriage - and I was determined to make this one work - and it just doesn't seem to be going that way right now. My first marriage ended in such a civil, simple way - it was sad, we cried, but there wasn't all this anger and all these attacks - and my first wife and I have remained good friends...which has done wonders for my S11...
But that's beside the point...what I wanted to say is that the shame of having a marriage fail often has more to do with where we come from than just ourselves. For instance, I finally had to realize that I was bearing the burden of making up for a lot of my father's mistakes - my parents divorced when we were young, and my father almost divorced from his second wife after their daughter was born. They were separated for four years - during which time I lived alone with him (and suffered through his abuse while I was in high school).
My father loves my Wife - he thinks she's a remarkable person - and when my marriage crumbled he first talked with me about how much I had to do to win her back - to let her know that I loved her...eventually, I realized that his advice was based on the idea that I was at fault for the failure of our marriage - and once I realized that's where he was coming from - I also realized more about how I had been raised to think about marriage...and I had to let go of those assumptions - and those notions of marriage if I had any chance at recovering and getting stronger - or - the real long-shot - of reconciling with my W.
Your W sounds like a tough person to love - and I agree that it sucks to have someone give up and not even try - my W hasn't filed yet - but she gave up and just kept us in limbo for five months until I finally urged her to act on her talk of moving out - or else work on us...and she opted to move out.
But...here's the thing - if she hadn't moved out I never - and I really mean never - would have noticed so many of the things I've come to see about myself - and the extent to which I had allowed my own expectations of her to morph into resentment and finally anger - that's how I contributed to the damager of our Marriage - I wasn't a bad husband, I never strayed, I'm not abusive (though she now lives in a reality in which she is convinced I am) - but I did let myself become and angry, withdrawn man - and started to inhabit the skin of the type of abusive man she believed I was simply because I loved her...in other words - based on her dictionary of love - love is defined by pain - and so, if I loved her, it meant I wanted to hurt her...and there is/was nothing I could do to change that for her unless she was/is willing to look into herself and heal her deepest wounds. Sadly, for us, that could not happen while still living together...and so I've learned to love her and let her go - I've learned to love her enough not to become the person she tries to lure me into becoming (I don't take the bait when she starts to pick fights) - and I remind myself every time I see her - no matter how she's behaving or what she's saying - be kind, Carlos. Be kind...and it's brought a lot of peace to me and the life of my kids.
Sorry to ramble - it just felt like something I should share here with you.
-Carlos.
ok...relieved to find out from L that wife did not request to change her name. Not sure why that bothered me so much, I guess it's just the finality of it all.
I had to email W today about a work trip I had and if she could watch the kids for a couple of my days. got a long reply email in her nicest tone.....however, when I got to the 'whats best for the kids' line, I quit paying attention. I equate that too 'whats best for W'....
Of course when I ask for her to watch the kids when I'm gone for work, resulting in me not seeing my kids for 12 days...she replies back with three requests of her own. Classic.
I'm not going to reply. I'm not going to drink any crown either, I'm all out.
my d is official today. i had to go down and enter the decree with the judge. boy was that fun. w couldnt do it because she's on another vacation and according to my accountant, there were tax advantages, or less headaches by getting it done in '08 vs. first week of '09. doesnt seem right that I had to go down and talk to the judge. makes me pretty sad.
but, the reality is my W is totally out of reality. the week before xmas, I had the kids. the last friday of the school week was snowed out. W was supposed to have the kids until 5pm, but asked if I could take them because she had a flight for another vacation that left early in the morning. I asked her if the kids could just sleep at my place Thurs night...nope, she had to bring them by at 7am...couldnt even stay one more day to be with her kids on her time. she got home xmas eve, then left day after xmas with the kids. i get them back friday. she's ridiculous. my L today said she's 'not a loving person', it will get better, you will be much better off. wish I could marry my L...she's cute, very nice, very real....but married.
so....i get the bomb on my sons birthday. get the I Love so and so on Xmas eve last year, go to mediation on halloween, and now see the judge on xmas eve. it's been a fabulous year. I'm bummed out, but what can I do....W filed before we were even separated. 15 months later after bomb, I'm D'd....wonderful. She never made one inclination to try or give effort. Just gave up. whatever....on we go...
Not often I would say this, but sounds like "The Tostada" is way better off without XW. Time to move forward into the new year, the new life...
May you experience bucketloads of joy in the new year!
T! I just found you here. I thought you had left this place. I didn't realize you moved over here. Well it probably doesn't matter much now but the whole time I was wondering how things were going and hoping for you. Dam! Really, really sorry for you brother. Choosing_Life might be right. Maybe you will be better off. Sh!t, my heart goes out to you.
thanks for the support. I was pretty down on Wed...my buddy made me go over to his house for xmas eve. He knew how I felt. He's going through some tough times himself, so we were all miserable together.
My L called me WED PM to see how I was doing. She is really nice and it was nice of her to think of me.
Thu and Friday I have been pretty bummed out. My kids got back here tonight so we have been having a good time playing games, wii, etc. I know they love it here and I know they like to play with me. I dont think W really plays with them much.
So, yes, it is a big bummer. I have been crying a lot, thinking back to what I had with my W. We didnt have a bad marriage but for whatever reason, she just thinks that grass is greener. We never even really fought until this last stage. I played hardball the entire time. I never wanted her to think D would be easy or rosy. And I certainly am not going to enable that for her in any way right now. It sounds like anger on my end, I am angry because we dont deserve this. My marriage wasnt bad. Sure it could have been better. It could have been better if she just stated what the hell was bothering her before she jumped ship. In my opinion, money ruined her. She started making a lot of money, made her very materialistic and once the selfish stage hit, bang...she's on top of the world.
Yes, I am anticipating it be awhile before I feel better about this. I loved her a lot. Ive never been dumped before. I just dont see myself playing the 'buffet line' like J210 and ManinMotion..though it does sound fun. My hearts just not in it yet.
Hey T,
Hope you are doing better today...NFL baby!
What you describe sounds so similar to my sitch....Fact of the matter is she is gone (physically and mentally). You need to accept that and stop getting back to "thinking back". try to think ahead T...don't get stuck.
After describing your wife on these boards, why don't you ask yourself this question. Is the person that your wife has become a person that you would want to spend the rest of your life with (not the one you remember, the one she has become). If the answer is yes, I suggest you you start enabling..... If the answer is no, then take care of T first and the kids when you are with them. It is normal to think of what might have been.....move on T.....
John210
PS by the way, I am not "playing" the buffet line but rather sampling. I did not see myself doing that a few months ago either but....reality has a way of sneaking up on you.
Tostada -
Sorry to hear your divorce is official. It must be hard when you still want to be married to her.
It will take the great healer of time for you to move on from this. There is no rush to jump in another relationship.
Hi Tostada,
I just as badly wanted to still be married to my wife. The thing for me that makes it easier is that I've grown so much at times it seems like the man I am now hasn't ever been married. We didn't have a good marriage. It wasn't bad in my opinion, but, given my family background, that's understandable. Give my wife's family background, for her it wasn't good.
These days, I'm merely coping and having a taste of the buffet is partially a coping strategy as well. When I was completely miserable, that she wasn't also was nearly unbearable. Now that there is the occasional enjoyment, it's a little easier to handle. Not that a new relationship no matter how little doesn't bring its' own complications along with it.
My IC said to me that I'm trying to deal with all this without having to deal with it. As in, I want to be past it without having to live the pain and hurt of getting past it. Touche'
So, I'm sorry you're here and the rest of us as well. You seem like a pretty good guy and a good father to your kids. I struggle with that one. It's easy for me to disappear into my own world.
Find what things you can enjoy and treat yourself to special things right now. We sometimes have this perverse idea that the time to treat ourselves is when we triumph. Better I think to do it when we're struggling.
Dan
well, let the interpreters go for it..
today was my birthday.....W made sure my kids made a big effort. W txt me mid morning and wanted to know if she could take me to lunch. if you know my sitch, thats the first example of goodwill on her part in 16 months. I replied thanks, but I'm already spoken for...
then, she brought my kids over to the house. She obviously really helped them with presents. Even baked me a cake. In her card was a short note ' happy birthday, I know it's been a tough year. wishing you happiness and joy in 2009, love Wife'....
anyway, I'm not really looking that hard into this, but it's interesting.
hey tostada, happy belated birthday!!!
Let me take the first shot.....It is my experience that although this is all very nice, it probably means very little in the grand scheme of things. Believe me, I know the feelings that such an encounter brings on. That is some nice goodwill on your w's part. You need to do the same...not to win her back but simply to show her that you can be friends. That should be your first goal. Don't go into all the reasons why you can not, just do it. Be civil, be accomodating, be nice just like you would with a friend (yes i know friends don't do what she did to other friends). Try to take this as day one ... a nice gesture...nothing more, nothing less.
Take care T.
Tostada,
I'm sorry to hear about your D. Hang in there, it will get better with time. I'm realizing lately that DB can be just as helpful for your own benefit as opposed to simply applying it to save a M. Are there any new recreational groups or activities you might want to try out? Or what were you not able to do previously that you are now free to do?
I've been pretty bummed out tonight. I had to clean some stuff off my computer and ran into a whole bunch of old pictures of my and W together, happy. These were even pretty recent. I don't know what she was thinking.
Today I had to explain the history of events to a good friend of mine. This was probably the first time I didn't cry while explaining. That's a bad sign to me, like I'm getting used to this.
I also have been laid off from my job. I didn't really tell W. Figure she kicked me out of her life, she's not first in line to find stuff out. She txt me to see if everything was ok, that she still cares for me, and if I wanted to talk, she was there....,now? I didn't reply to her. Out of sight out of mind.
She came to pick up my son the other night and came to the front door. She wasn't wearing makeup. I think she's so pretty 'natural'. I didn't know what to say, but I could tell she just had her hair highlited. So I said "did you just get your hair colored". She didn't know what to say either, and replied 'did you'? Anyway, we smiled at each other and both looked deep into each others eyes. I sure wish this was different.
Today I had 4 different friends come by my house. That was nice.
Hey T,
Very sorry to hear about your job...
Tostada, you have my condolences about being laid off. I wish you much luck in finding a new one that you enjoy.
Hi Tostada, Sorry to hear about the layoff coming right on top of the D. That must really suck big time. Hope you find something better one on both fronts.
Hi Tostada,
I, too, am looking for a new job and at the same time going through a D (mine's still in process) but I'm looking to faith to carry me through this time. I'm not religious, but just believing and knowing in your heart that yes things are going to get better is the way out of the tunnel. Know it. You will find something better, soon. Here's to good luck coming your way
I was wondering if anyone had a recomendation for a good SBT in Portland? I have a buddy that needs a little help.
Hi Tostada -
I went to this
one several times and thought she was good. She was aware of Michelle's books and is solution oriented.
I havent posted for quite awhile.
Something surfaced this week. Nobody will remember, but my W had denied OM over and over again to me and everyone surrounding us. She did admit she had a crush on a guy and that she did do some talking. I chalked it up to a short term Emotional Relationship. Even later after we separated, she said they didnt even interact.
So...Friday I get a call from a buddy. He says he has to tell me this. A lady down the street that was an acquiantance of his called him and asked for my phone number. How she knew he knew me I dont understand. But the summary of the story is, her husband is filing for divorce from her so he can be with my wife. They have two young kids and I believe she has MS. This guy is a major league scumbag. She would like to talk to me and I hope I get the chance this week. He spilled the beans on their entire relationship.
SO...the emotions going through my body are unbelievable. I feel so lied to, manipulated, cheated on, etc. I feel as bad as the day I got the bomb. I am so angry and disappointed in her. I suppose I may have felt differently down the line if it was someone I didnt suspect. But now she's breaking up another family for herself. The most selfish act ever. I have had the worst pit in my stomach all weekend hearing about these two.
There's a lot more to it, but I just dont know how to deal with it. I guess I always hoped that because the excuses were weak, she would come to realize what she gave up. We are divorced, but, this all started while we are married. To me, that makes the circumstances quite different. I never really could figure out her excuses why she wanted to get divorced. Nobody close to us could figure it out either. Nothing made sense. Well, now it does. It was a big lie.
I have talked to my kids about it. They didnt know either. Maybe it was bad for me to tell them, but I didnt want them manipulated by those two before they knew what was happening. I didnt create this situation. I just get to live it, along with them.
This happens all too often where 2 families are broken because of an affair. The odds are not good for their own future relationship since the likelyhood of one of them cheating again his higher.
I am not sure what you or the other betrayed wife are going to get out of talking. It seems that it might just open old wounds. Is obtaining any new and possible painful information meaningful to you now?
This is a very delicate situation to discuss with your kids. I hope you just gave them a heads up that they may be meeting another man who is with you X in the near future. It is important to not be a hypocrite and forbid your X from introducing the kids to him as the day may come when you want to introduce the kids to your next sweetheart.
I wish you well Tostada and hope you can recover from this ordeal in a short amount of time. Were you able to find a new job?
I understand how much it sucks to think your spouse is really sticking with the person they cheated with. I will never be able to say I am happy if/when my spouse is in a relationship with someone else, but all along I have said I will be able to deal with it as long as it isn't the OW....that has to suck for you.
I think it is a little different if you eventually meet someone b/c it won't be the person who had a hand in breaking up your marriage....but that assumes your wife will stay with this guy, which, as kerry pointed out, is unlikely. Even if they marry I was just reading a book tonight that mentioned 80% of marriages by affair partners wind up in divorce.
I'd like to talk to her and fill in the blanks. I'd also like to help her nail him to the cross.
I told my kids what to expect, who he was, what his role was. Its the truth.
I have not found a job.
Hello T,
I'd like to talk to her and fill in the blanks.
This is good in a sense cos I know that if I was in your postion I would want to fill in all the blanks.
I'd also like to help her nail him to the cross.
Well by all means help nail him to the cross but the down side to that is that it drags you down into their murky world (W & OM) longer than you need to be there. Ultimately if W has moved on with this sleezbag, then you'll need to move on with your life. Don't let then anger and the hurt drive your future, let some of it out, then start to focus on where you want to go.
Lanzo
PS: hope you have some success in finding a job.
hey T,
Nice to hear from you...although the circumstances are less than ideal. First off, I really hope you find some work. If for no other reason that it will occupy your mind for 8 hrs. a day.
I have said this in the past. Unless they are mistreated, people do not leave a marriage, a family without having a plan B.
Some people are better than others at hiding it but the truth usually resurfaces.... My advice, although extremely difficult to follow (I was not able to) is to avoid filling in the blanks. Apart from pissing you off more and maybe losing more respect for your wife, what will be accomplished. You will undoubtedly confront her with your new information and feel better for a short while. At the end of the day, most WAS are in their own world and they have already formulated a reason for their actions. Otherwise, they would not be able to function and move forward. I find it ironic that most WAS seem to go on with their lives with little or no apparent remorse in spite of the fact that they were being less than moral.
Do what you need to do T.....but the sooner this gets out of your system, the better off you will be. Believe me. I have been there.
keep moving forward.
i cannot begin to explain my emotions. what she has done to me has been totally unbelievable. i have gone from what I thought was a happy family, to two destroyed families. i am amazed at the place she can put herself and think this is a better life and that this will make her so happy. where is her concience. how can she look herself in the mirror. how can she exist in this community with the reputation she has created for herself. then pile that on with an om with the same issues. she has scorched the earth with damage to herself, her family, and many friends. its the most selfish act i can imagine. how did she become this person. her problems are just beginning.
Hey T,
I have asked myself a few of those questions. Maybe not as eloquently and as heartfelt as you express them but....I and probably alot others feel your pain.
Even if she would answer those questions one by one, you would not accept them. No more than I would.
Like I wrote earlier, the WAS has all this neatly tucked away in a portion of their brain called lala land. They have no problem looking at themselves in the mirror because they have come to terms with their actions. Looking back, I now realize that XW was always selfish but I did not notice. Of course, I am certain that nothing prepared us for this type of behaviour.
The question is and always will be, what will T do with this information......The way I try to deal with these emotions that do creep up occasionally is to come to the realization that we are better off without this type of person in our life....not easy but I really doubt that our XWs will suddenly become the person we remeber.
T, Not surprising at all. Don't expect any morality or conscience now - WAS such as these did not have much of this since a long time ago. The sad part is the children in the middle.
By the common laws of 'live and let live' and 'everyone does this' so 'time to move on' you could go find a 'sweetheart' and justify it, but I seriously doubt that makes things right for you or your kids. To me this seems like the behavior of stray dogs that smell their way to their next sexual encounter. I'm sure most won't agree with me but that's just my view.
W came by today to talk to D10. We talked at the door for awhile. I told her how upset I was, how I felt lied to, etc. She doesn't think she has done anything wrong. Every example I brought up she had justified in her mind that it was all ok. 'He had a bad marriage', 'we are so alike and communicate so well'. 'We have things we never had'. 'He didn't break up our marriage'. 'I expect to be with him forever', stuff like that. She has made me look like everything he isn't. She is very concerned about what I'm telling my kids, because she has done no wrong.
I said she had to have some level of doubt about this guy, after what he did to his wife. She has none. She has no guilt for what she has done. He's so perfect for her. Its all so troubling.
I guess it will be good to talk with OM's STBXW so as to get a different view as to whether this guy is as "perfect" as your XW claims he is. I dont see how you could help "nail him to the cross" when it comes to legal divorce matters. Washington is a
"no fault" state just like mine.
T,
Don't want to come off as an "i told you so" guy. Nothing about what your wife said surprises me in the least bit.
I bet she said that she met him after the two of you were done too!
This sounds so familiar...I think I could become a fortune teller.
john you are a fortune teller...yes, thats exactly what she said, saying he was not responsible, that she was going to leave me 3 years ago, though there were no signs of that. then she said she decided to stay until the kids got through high school, which is bs. said they were just 'friends' and that he wanted to work on his marriage. unfortunately, i read the emails at the time and she didnt regard him as just a 'friend', because friends dont talk to each other like that. she said they tried breaking it off a few times because he wanted to work on his marriage. neither of them could work on their marriage because these two saw each other at work all the time, went out to lunch, drinks, were with each other on road trips. they couldnt work on their marriages because plan b was always in their pockets. neither tried to do the right thing and both dont care. they are their soul mates of course.
my kids went off today to be with xw for the next 10 days. I am so scared when they come back how they will have been brainwashed by their mother that om is just perfect, she's never been happier, and all that bs. i have so much anger to her and him. i want to ruin this guys reputation so badly. our first encounter i predict wont be easy.
whats the over/under on their relationship?
Tostada, I worry that the anger might be running your life too much right now. It might be worthwhile for you to go see a counselor so as to get some coping strategies on how to get over the anger.
Dont worry about the over/under of their relationship. It may work out, and if it does, you need to not be waiting around indefinitely for it to fail. My mother is still with the man she had an affair with that broke apart my parents marriage and it is over 30 years. My father did not dwell on it too much although he did refer to OM around my brother and I as "Fat Boy".
Maybe she will be happier and it may not be such a bad thing for the kids to have a happy mother. Your concern is for when they are with you that they have a happy go lucky father.
Please try to work out some of your issues regarding your anger. Getting rid of the hostility about the terrible breakup of your family will be best in the long run.
Have to agree with Kerry, T. You should be on jeopardy asking Alex for "things i don't give a sh!t about for $500 please"....
Let them do their thing...being pissed won't change anything in their life...it will change yours though. Especiially if your kids see their father hurt. Believe me, kids notice everything...so as much as this hurts, do not bad mouth the xw, try to be "nice" with her when the kids are around. This is the biggest gift you can give them right now T.
Sorry you are going through this but for what it's worth, you are not alone...both Kerry and I have been there.
Move on amigo....move on...
i just have so many feelings. i am really bummed by the news and their poor decisions and for them to allow this to happen. it makes me angry at the OM for sure for what he's putting me and my kids through, as well as his w and kids. im angry at xw for this stupidity. unfortunately, i cant get to the 'i dont give a sh!t' category until I get through the 'i give a sh!t' category.
i found this article that was rather interesting on this subject. it really rings true to what my discussion was with her. they are in their own little reality, that will soon become a difficult reality.
http://www.topdatingtips.com/married-affairs.htm
I hear you T....do me a favour and get through the first category quickly!
Good article written by someone that experienced an affair with a married person. Of course, if your X were to read that, she would still be in denial.
T, You can't force yourself to "move on" no matter what anyone says esp. if you highly value marriage and family. And the betrayal does hurt but on the other hand it shows the W's true colors and might set you free from holding out for her and make you shine brighter in the darkness. The example she sets for the kids is indeed damaging and hurtful and the total destruction is unmeasurable. Children of divorce are more likely to divorce in general. People's value systems are so different. I periodically get taken by surprise and even get annoyed by some of the stupid insensitive advice and remarks from well-meaning people. If you were more easy-peasy or loosy-goosy you'd have dated, had free sex and "moved on" a long time ago and played double jeopardy for "I don't give a sh!t for $500" , but it may take you a while to recover so take it one day at a time.
Hey FB2 sorry this well meaning guy has annoyed you.....as far as the "total destruction" is concerned, I think T can either add to it by showing his frustration or downplaying the whole situation in front of his kids.
T, you and I have been posting to each other for a while and our writing "styles" have usually been "in your face". I really hope i did not come across as insensitive to you. If I did, i apologize T.
I was not offended at all.
I am doing better today. I have done a lot of reading regarding affairs and married people. It makes me realize how wrapped up they are, how selfish they are, and its extremely unlikely this type of relationship could last. I find comfort in believing that this was the start to everything 'wrong' in our relationship. I remember hearing 'we are too different', 'we dont have enough in common', 'we dont communcate', 'were not best friends' those types of things. Then when w and I talked the other day, those were all the positives in OM...So to me, everything and every excuse she had that our 'marriage was terrible', I find false because she had this OM on her mind. I wasnt perfect, he was, so everything about me had to be wrong.
So...knowing this is very unlikely to fail, I really expect her to crash and burn big time. when that happens, will she realize her mistake and the damage she caused? I dont know. My hunch is she will. Would I take her back if she came asking? I dont know that either. I feel crazy because my hunch is yes, with certain circumstances. I certainly dont want to go through this again. So..I guess i'm looking at this with some sort of optimism as weird as that can be.
No problem John, nothing personal intended so I'm not annoyed with you at all. I think you've done very well to rise above the dirt hopefully T will in good time too, when he realized its not his fault and there's nothing he can do about it.
One thing that does still bother me tho' with downplaying these situations is that the kids invariable grow to believe that what the W is doing is just fine. And they will likely repeat the behavior in their lives. I'm sure their little minds are tortured.
Fb2 - You've raised that point about the kids perception of adultery before. It bothers me that we are to not bad mouth the actions of the cheating spouse in front of the kids, but yet, does that not send the wrong message that adultery is tolerated.
I guess for our kids sake, it maybe is not so bad if the spouse that cheated ultimately crashes and burns so that they can be an example to the kids of what not to do.
Right now, my kids are just too young to understand the concept of adultery. It pissed me off to no end when I found out for sure from my own daughter that my W was in a PA. My daughter thought it was cute that mommy had a boyfriend and was sharing germs with him. In my rage at the time, I told my daughter that it was wrong for mommy to have a boyfriend when married, because when you marry, you pledge loyalty to the other person. I was chastized for saying this to her.
I think it is good that Tostada has been able to draw a line from the rejection to his XW's attraction to OM. At first we feel like fools, but as time goes on, we realize that most of the downfall in the marriage was not our fault. I dont buy into the people that say that when an affair is discovered that we need to look within ourselves as to our role in causing it. The person that got into the affair has most of the blame (along with the affair partner).
Tostada, your X and the OM are morally deficient people with little conscience.
Did you ever talk to the W of the OM?
I so hope your job prospects are looking up.
I have not talked to OW...my perception of why she has not contacted me is they are not as far along in their process as my W believes. OW doesnt want to piece together details because she believes they have a chance, my opinion. In my thoughts, if she thought it was over, she'd pick me for info to help her case, even though the info might not help. Just simply, she's not that educated on divorce law, therefore would want all the info she could.
I know I'm the eternal optimist, but for some reason, I do have hope.
Hey T,
Hope you are doing ok today. During the last year or so that i have been on DB, I have read quite a few sitches. Obviously i went through some things myslef. If I would not have, my opinions would be totally different. As a matter of fact roughly ten yrs. ago, one of my buddies went through this WAW thing. You do not want to know what I called her adn what i suggest he do. I have to admit that I am surprised at your optimism after having found out about this affair.....BUT i understand it. I have been there and i have felt the same way as you do.
Having said all that, your challenge will be to GAL. To cccupy yourself physically and mentally. Good luck on the job front and I hope you can find some semblance of happiness during these tough times.