The hardest decision - need advice, please!

Just got the bomb this morning (2nd time counting the one 5 yrs ago). I'm going to take people's advice and stick to this forum/post and see if we can get some good dialog going. I really need help!

About the OM: I got the same "this isn't a passing fancy," "we really have a connection," and "we talk for hours," etc. as when this happened before, but the first guy is now referred to as "a total jerk". She's wise to my change in attitude because she says I'll just "rationalize it (the relationship with OM). Who she has maintained is non-physical - just talking for hours. And "I can't explain it."

You might think I should just give up because this is the second time she's done this, but I totally understand why she needed to reach out to someone else. I was impossible to live with - I can blame jobs stress, health issues, etc. but it was no excuse for the way I acted.

She also can't seem to use the D word. She says "we should talk about separating our finances," and she doesn't want to string me along with false hopes. But, she said last week she'd like to get together for movies and dinners, but that's it for right now.

Here's my question: how do I respond? Is it not a good LRT to state I would like to not rush into a D? She was willing to wait 8 wks before for my stress reduction/pain management sessions to be done. I have not responded at all so far. How can I do this without saying anything negative about OM and that relationship. I'm tempted to not mention it in any way, and just keep any talk focused on our relationship.

Really need some advice on this one!

First of all, I have to ask. You were argumentative to some of us who posted to you and even argued with me about having multiple posts. Are you going to be the same?

I see you've had the same problem with others on here as well and I don't have time to go down that road, but if you seriously want to help, I would consider your advice.

I really liked the DB coach Joann, but she's not available again until 7/15, so I got an appt to talk to Laurie today at 3. I only signed up for 3 sessions due to the cost, but just need to talk to someone about it directly, too, you know? I'm really in crisis mode. :-(

so you deleted my post again. good luck to you.

doug le

dmr, what sort of help are you looking for right now?

If you admit to being impossible to live with, what would be different for your W now?

I was looking for advice on how to respond to the email. After talking to DB coach, I'm really going dark right now. Even staying away from FB, because all I can do is look and see how she took her "married to..." status off and stuff.

Right this very second, all I can say is I'm trying to learn better ways to respond to very large problems besides being angry, depressed, etc. This will be an ongoing effort on my part.
I can only show her any changes if there is future contact. Time is my friend here, and I'm just trying to avoid rushing into D and also hoping that the EA implodes or doesn't go to PA at least.

Sorry to hear you are back here again dmr1965. I have been chatting to Laurie for many sessions and as you have probably already found out, she knows her stuff and is very helpful.
I understand and agree about the not giving up.
I think the track you talked about taking is a good start. It sounds like for yourself, you will need to focus on the angry and depressed person. Hopefully this time will be good for you.

Thanks for the encouragement. I've decided to treat it like alcoholism or something. Instead of something to be beaten and then move on, I figure on continuing to work on it, with help, for the rest of my miserable life. Kidding about the miserable part. ;-)

OK, really need some insight about WAW, or from a WAW - or even a WAH if you have some insight.

Today was a mixed bag. I did fine in my LRT and DBing, but there was a big snag in the situation.

WHAT SHE DID: My wife had texted this morning asking if she could come visit the cat. I went out to the library because I had a lot of work to do, and figured she'd appreciate the time alone here. I took my DR book, but left my notebook next to my keyboard with the drawer pushed in.

Well, she snooped. She left me a note saying she saw my notebook and she found it creepy and it shows I'm not listening. Then followed more about how EA/OM is such a great guy (Unlike the OM from last time, who she said was a total jerk but she had played it up so I wouldn't think she "was a loser."). How she and this OM have tons in common, talk for hours, etc. But he doesn't take advantage, and takes it SLOW. Never quite uses the L word. Also said his ex was "verbally abusive, like me." She said I should hate her and if someone's in love, they wouldn't be looking somewhere else. No mention of D or further talk about separating finances, etc. or what we need to do about our 2 house situation and me needing a car, etc. (we were supposed to be moving before I hired the wrong painter for the new house - the OM). :-(

Believe me, I do know that I'm responsible in large part for her looking. If I wasn't a work-from-home recluse, I may have been the WAH. That's the only reason I'm not a quivering mass of tears over that (I've had a few breakdowns, but....)

As for my notes, I had only used the DB initials - never mentioned the book or site by name. I doubt she memorized everything in there, but I'm sure DB notes do look a bit creepy to the WAW. I wish to God I'd taken that notebook with me.

So the nagging questions. She has been adamant about me not snooping/stalking, but she obviously snoops every chance she gets. What does she care? Why did she first say "maybe I shouldn't trust her" and now "you should hate me?" If I am so bad, why the guilt?

WHAT I DID: I read the note, felt very sad, and simply texted her "I don't hate you."

I didn't mention the notes. I wanted to defend them, but realized I couldn't. I'm sure she didn't memorize every word. She knows I'm in counseling and should figure they're a part of that - which they are, even if DBing isn't associated with my therapist. I didn't mention all the things we do have in common. I most certainly didn't mention the OM, or the pain of being a LBS, etc. etc.

I'm at a loss. I don't know if I can last beyond the infatuation point of her relationship with this OM. I want to try, but.... I don't know how much I can take. I hate living in this crappy house in the sticks. I have to work here, too, and there's no place to walk safely around here, which is my best GAL activity - it's exercise and meditation all at once. We're in limbo with most of our stuff packed up and the house she's in unfinished. It's all I can do to stay focused and employed.

Anyone else ever have a WAS snoop and find their DB notes, or have a negative reaction to their efforts at changing their behavior?

plenty

I have searched and browsed thru the forums and have seen some examples. I couldn't really say anything to her to try to justify my belief that there wasn't anything "kind of creepy" to it, so just didn't mention it at all.

Got thru a difficult software deployment last night for work, then watched Forrest Gump at 1 am after testing was finished for some GAL activity for me.

Going to try to go out to get dinner (and escape two very needy cats for a bit...) and get a good walk in.

I wish you could change titles on these things... or combine stuff or even, heaven forbid, delete. Ah, well. If I do manage to remember that this is where I'm posting, and avoid the litter of all the other posts I had strewn around, I'm stuck with it. That's the IT guy in me speaking. There are some conventions here that are very alien to other forums - pretty much any other forum I've ever seen. But, never mind that. 'tis what 'tis.

Today, trying to remember that time is my friend. Found some good vids of Michelle Weiner Davis on YouTube. It was fun to hear her instead of just reading her stuff.

Just to address something you posted on another thread.

We are all here to help each other. I will be the first to say that there are NEVER any right or wrong ways of doing something. I never say that my way is best and ALL of the posters on here are here for one reason and one reason only. And that is to save marriages.

The issue becomes when you don't agree with what is being posted. That is within your right. However, it is the sarcastic tone that comes across that turns people off. I said that it would be best if you stuck to one thread so others could help you. You blew that off. And now you're trying to get all of your posts straight. Many on here will tell you the same thing. Not just me.

For what it's worth, I see alot of potential in your situation whether you listen to me or others or not. You can save your M and I would be happy if you did with or without my help. From many others whom I've seen go through the EXACT same situation as you, I've seen what they did to save their marriages.

If you've lost hope, I say don't. From what I've seen and learned from others in your situation, saving your marriage is much easier than you may think.

Thanks again. Despite my stubbornness, you're still helping me and I appreciate that a lot more than I can say. Thanks for not giving up on me. It raises that question that I saw in DB or DR or somewhere - what box is she putting me in? That's a good place to focus. My arguing, sarcasm, snide comments, etc. are CLEARLY not working for her, or others. I'll try to remember that at my appt with my counselor tomorrow, and in my continuing efforts to change myself for the better.

Update on communications:

Today I got an email asking if the car is due for an oil change, and if I'd paid a bill. No mention of the situation or divorce, etc. Just business, so to speak. She did want to change an eye exam we had scheduled for later this week so we don't have to go together. But, given everything else, that's not surprising.

If time is my friend, I took this as a positive interaction overall. I just answered the questions directly, and didn't say anything that would make the situation worse, which is all I have in my power to do.

I was just clarifying my point. Good luck to you and hope others post to you soon.

I'm no vet, so sometimes I find it hard to give advice, but in your case giving her time and space seem like the only way you can really attack this right now, along with working on yourself.

I try to ask people if you could go back in time, and change the things that got you here in the first place, are those the things your working on now? Are you honest/critical of yourself enough to answer your own hard questions. If you cant look in the mirror and be honest about it, she's gonna see right thru it.

Whats Michele say, our spouses know us better that we do. If its not genuine your just wasting your time.

Thanks, guys. Thumpered, good questions. Definitely working on those things, and it's something I've wanted to do for many, many years, but just couldn't get myself started down that road.

I had another visit with my counselor today. She's definitely the "let's delve into your past" type. She's heard of MWD and Divorce Busting, and even said "Michelle is great" but she's clearly not understanding the principles of the LRT. She seems perplexed that I wouldn't confront my wife right now about snooping in my journal, or try to talk to her about our R and what she wants. She seemed to want to argue about some of the specific "don't do" items on the list, but she dropped it and got back to digging into my childhood. That's ok, though, because she's here to work on me right now. It's just were her ideas and my ideas on DBing conflict that there's any issue.

It still amazes me how cold hearted she can sound when she asks for me to have the bills for the new house sent to her and stuff, and tells me I need to get a car, and she's sorry, but "it doesn't change things."

I don't want to push it right now, but I could say that she needs to find a car. But, not at the moment. Still doing LRT and haven't given up on that yet.

Sorry about the rapid-fire journalism mode. Just have to get it out there....

We went from "need time apart" to "get together for movies and dinner" to just ice cold business-only contact. And the only thing different is OM/EA/whatever-that-situation-is. And thanks to the notebook snooping incident (scroll back for details...), she *knows* I know this.... Just such a hopeless feeling.

I was actually doing fine the first couple of days because I *agreed* we could use a couple weeks apart. It's been a very stressful time living where we've been living, then trying to get this place ready to sell, and the new place ready to move into.

And I can't get the idea out of my head - what if I had just done the painting like we'd planned? I hired this guy (OM) and that's just killing me. :-(

Hi DMR! I read your post on NLT's thread, and thought I'd come over to say hi. I glanced thru some of your old and newer threads, and am sorry you're going through such a hard time.�

I agree with Mr. Bond that you can save your marriage. My H has said the same sort of things about his first EA, she was wonderful and they DID talk for hours every day, then she became a jerk. His current EA/PA started as a bitch and user, and is now his soul mate. Sigh. I'm DBing (not always well) with the help of the good folks on this forum and my DB coach.�

But my H has definitely been going thru a MLC for almost 4 years. You just refer to your W as a WAS. Is she in MLC too? Has your coach instructed you to follow LRT? My coach told me not to.�

Good luck to you.�

Thanks for the feedback LindaM. I know it's been a really short time. Heck, last time W and I went through this it was 6 months, and that's short for some people - I can be impatient, but I've been very good about how I deal with that as far as DBing goes.

Not sure if she counts as a MLC or not. Just saw an opportunity and ran with it, I think. Classic symptoms of checking out long ago but waiting for the opportunity.

Yeah, I've had 2 sessions and both were all about the LRT.

It's really hard though, because I know she's big on Hollywood style romance (dang chick-flics) so there's that part of me that wants to send flowers or say something dramatic.... but I'm sticking 100% to the LRT script because I think she'll just see it as a gimmick and another thing to compare to Mr Wonderful. Because, why wasn't I doing that kind of stuff before, right? (Right out of the DR book....) :-/

As for that LRT, we're physically separated and I'm actually pretty amazed she hasn't yet outright suggested getting D and getting on with life, etc. etc. Being in limbo [censored], but I keep repeating "time is my friend" in this situation. I'm not sure who she's trying to convince when she says stuff like "it doesn't change anything" but I feel it's both of us. Maybe I'm delusional, but I'm going to stick it out to find out.

So, wise DBers. Need more advice on responding.

She just replied to an older email about the house or something, but with an entirely different topic - more of my failures, past transgressions and her ideas of how things can't change. I think she's just ranting and it might be best to let it slide. My heart wants to respond but my head says to stay the course and let this one slide by.

Here is the gist of what she said:

"you can't undo feelings bad or good. [cut out specifics of some bad attempts of mine at drawing attention to some intimacy problems]. You know my failures."

"You can't make someone love you. And it wasn't that I don't want sex I just don't want it with someone who treats me like you and you should understand that isn't something that can be changed."

Ouch! Sorry if it's TMI, but I really need to be careful here in LRT territory. DB coach Joann reminded me that we can work on this stuff later (if there's a later) but right now I need to focus on not doing what doesn't work.

My mistake, it was the current email exchange about bills/dr appts, etc. Same issue though. She seems to be seething/churning through a lot of emotion right now.

I *want* to say that I agree that those things I did were stupid, ham-fisted, hurtful, etc. and that I understand why she feels this way, but that I do think things can change.

BUT... I fear the situation is just too delicate for that right now.

Have you read anything on validating stayements? I have these saved on my phone:

"I'm sorry you feel like that" �
"I hadn't thought of it that way"
"I can see how it would feel that way"
"I do care. Tell me more about what you're going through"
"I am gonna have to think about that a little more"
"Hmmm, so you are saying xxx. Let me think about that"
"I can see you're really serious about this"
"I see this is important to you"
"I'd like to respond to you when I'm feeling a little less emotional about this"
"I understand why you might feel that way"

Those are good. I did decide to respond rather than make her mad by ignoring her when she's obviously thinking about the situation.

So, I did say that one of the things she pointed out that I did was indeed stupid of me and that I apologize for it. Another one I just mentioned (I used to keep a picture of our CO house on my computer) - I said I did that just because I was proud of the work I had done on it (she clearly felt it was meant to make her feel bad about us living here).

I left the deeper issues of feelings changing out of it. One important point, though. I know she's right about not wanting to be intimate with someone you feel is mistreating you. That's not what I want to change - rather my behavior that has her feeling that way.

But, that reaction was either based on her past interpretation of events/arguments/etc. or something I said very early on when she left on 7/24 before I gathered my DBing wits about me.

I think the best marriage advice I ever heard outside of DB, DR, or these forums was from Craig Ferguson. It goes like this: "Does this need to be said? Does it need to be said right now? Does it need to be said right now by me?"

I think it took him three wives to figure it out, though. :-/

I've done a lot of reading thru other people's posts, and it is astounding how spot-on MWD is with her analysis of the WAS.

The last couple days as the depression has leveled off and with my baby steps at meditation and counseling, I've been getting a sense of what a tempest must be brewing in W's mind. I do feel for her, both because of the pain she was in for so long (especially during her "checked out" phase) and now. I still have my ups and downs, for sure where hurt or anger get the upper hand over that feeling of empathy for the W. But I keep reminding myself that I don't want to be that person any more. So I try to catch myself and let the angry thoughts drift away. Have to work on this every day as a life-long skill. Don't want to be sad and pitiful or angry! :-)

Anyway, something for all of us LBSs to think about.

Yup DMR, it sure hurts when the person you love the most in the world is in so much emotional pain, and chooses to blame it all on your. And there is not a darned thing you can do about it, trying to point out the truth only makes them hate you worse.

You are doing a great job working on yourself, I hope it all works out for you and W. I'm sure she'll notice all the changes!!

I just noticed you are in NY. I live on Long Island, how about you?

Thanks, Linda. Upstate - right near Saratoga. I have yet to make it out to Long Island, but one of these days! :-)

We had a pleasant email chat - she wanted an update on the kitty, and she said she hoped I'd managed to find a car (long story, but I'm hoofing it right now, which is tough in these parts. Much too rural for that). Taking it at face value and leaving it at that. Just a nice, neutral, brief conversation.

The pre-DBing me might have said "the kitty misses you and wants you to come home" or something dumb like that. :-)

I do still have a problem with overreacting when we have any positive contact. I think I don't realize just how hard it is for her to contact me about stuff, because I know she's feeling very guilty (based on things she's said), plus there's that whole thing about WAW's being in a very angry/defensive state and looking for justification for what they're doing. I have done my very best with what I have said when I reply, but I keep forgetting to let her have the last word sometimes.

Today I texted an unsolicited picture of the cat since she asked abut him yesterday. Have to be very careful about that, because it could easily be seen as trying to manipulate her feelings. And maybe it was. I should know better than that. The reason she asked before was because I had been quit for days.

<sigh>

Back to darkness and working on myself.

Here's a turn for the worse.

W texted me about having the credit card bill sent to her. When I went online to look at the bill, because I used it for the car rental, etc. There's a $2,500.00 charge to a law office on there.

She's not mentioned a thing about this to me. :-(

I hope you printed that out so you can have it taken from HER portion of the proceedings from the divorce split.

oh Lord I'm sorry, that's rough. NY is a no-fault state now. But just because she retains an attorney, that does not necessarily mean she'll file papers. And even if she files,�that does not necessarily mean she'll she'll go thru with it. How long ago was the cc charge?

Last tuesday.

Heck, I'd already been half expecting a process server or big fat envelope in the mail....

Yeah, I was just telling an old DB friend from the first time around how last time I had the papers for weeks, in CO, and they were a no-fault state forever. :-/

I'm trying to still just stick to good DB principles.

That's really all you can do right now, sorry. Hang in there.

Thanks. Even a few kind words of support mean a heck of a lot in times like these. :-)

OMG, things are heating up. Definitely in the LRT of LRT phase. We're communicating more because of the lawyer visit, but at the expense of some rigid DBing. It's a fine line to walk, going dark. I've had to defend myself a bit and react to the constant hate that she throws back, but at least we're "speaking" if only by VM.

And mostly at my expense, but I know one thing I've learned is that you can't change the mind of a WAS/MLCer. Just going with the flow here as best I can.

I'll update with more details when things settle down a bit.

Is it weird that I feel better about everything when we're discussing stuff, no matter how painful, than when in silence and limbo? Even if she's still just taking every opportunity to dig into the past and hurl more anger at me?

well maybe you feel better because you know where you stand, lots better than being in limbo. So now you can make a clear plan for yourself. Did you read the Divorce Remedy book? Do you have a DB coach or MC? I was planning to try LRT but my DB coach said it is too early. But I guess if your W is living apart from you and is seriously pursing D, it's time.

Maybe some of the vets could help you here, I am just muddling thru my H's MLC myself, but sort of assumed you should not answer voice mail? Not sure.

I've read DR, and have used 2 of my 3 coaching sessions already!

It's a fine line in with communications. You can upset them if you ignore them. But if you reply to everything, and right away, you can look too needy and pursuing. Definitely no right answer to that one.

So hard not to try to grade each encounter, assigning points to how well I stuck to DB principles or not. Today, it must have been about 50/50, I don't know.

I slipped up and let a few things come out about how she will take her issues to another relationship, etc. etc. And I may have focused too much on myself by expressing how hard it was to go from making a new life in a new house to being left at the old place with no car, etc. And I did point out that the way I acted for the last few years was due to depression, not that I'm some kind of monster...

But sometimes when you wake up to an anger filled email, discussions of the big D and such, it's all you can do to hit 50%, ya know?

On the other hand, I did try my best to reiterate how I understand why she felt unfulfilled, unloved, etc. And I thanked her for discussing things this much and said we hadn't talked that much about anything in ages.

The fact that she still reaches back to dredge up anything she can to throw at me really shows how well MWD understands the WAW syndrome. She seems to be working so hard to turn everything into a confrontation, and she's only seeing the bad stuff. When I do slip up and mention something positive, she just changes the subject to something else bad, instead of responding to it or denying it.

JUICY TIDBITS HERE: She actually threatened to tell my mother if I did something... can't remember exactly. Maybe it was just if I was difficult. Don't really feel like picking thru the flood of emails. She also threatened me not to contact the OM, or "she'd never speak to me again." Which seems like an odd threat considering how hard she works to convince me I'm the last person she'd ever want to speak to.

Fool that I am, I still believe we could get through this, if the door can just be left open a crack. If things go wrong at all with OM, I honestly think she'd turn to me. Maybe I'm delusional, but I do still believe this.

Just numb today. Took a walk the mile or so round trip to Stewart's convenience store, which is the only place in walking distance, to get some provisions, since once again, just when I was really going to focus on finding a new (old) car, I got the wind knocked out of me again.

It had finally cooled down below 90 for 1st time in a week, and there was a breeze. I enjoyed the walk a bit. I hadn't been farther than the mailbox during the entire hot, muggy week! (Work from home, live in the sticks, currently have no car). Really makes GAL activity. Especially since my only non-online friends and family live 100s of miles away. Enough of the pity party though.

After the email meltdown today, I unfriended W on FB, immediately regretted it and sent a new friend request. Geez. but, it was bugging me that I couldn't stop checking - FB is like a personal stalking/snooping service. Last week I had suspended my account, but that just worried friends and family. :-(

There should be a forum just for Facebook related DB issues. :-/

She makes me question myself, and wonder if I'm just an a-hole who can't stand to let her go so she can be happy. Since I couldn't stick to DBing for the last 6 years, do I just want her around so I can keep us both miserable? My counselor wants to spend time delving into my past looking for answers to my anger and unhappiness. I don't think they are all that hidden or deeply buried. But real behavioral change is as hard as losing weight, quitting smoking, or stopping drinking. It takes continuous effort, and support. I don't want to be the husband or even the person I've been, but I also don't want to just give up and say that D is the best thing, either. I know there is a broad spectrum in between, but it doesn't seem like it when I'm repeatedly told that I'm verbally abusive (a term she used to describe her now departed mother - she actually made a direct comparison by saying "how do you think that makes me feel after my mother?").

Journaling like crazy, here, but I just remembered something. On more than one occasion, when I threatened to leave in the heat of the moment, she threatened to kill herself. But I'm expected to consent to D with no drama - which for her means I must simply agree and sign the papers. The only difference being her circumstances are better right now - weight loss, OM, the new house, the car, and a full-time job - so no need for her to be dramatic. <sigh>

She had said a while back that we could sell the new house if I didn't want her in it. Having a hard time not digging up that email and replying that this would be the only fair thing to do. But this would be quite a hardship for her, and would pretty much enrage her. I think deep down my motivation would be just keeping OM from what was my DIY dream project and the new start for the W and I. This is something we've tried and failed at multiple times, trying to find our dream home. I realize I'm all over the place, but I'm still realing from yesterday morning and can't stop the thoughts racing through my mind.

Falling down again.... Really would like some wise analysys, but be kind. I'm hurting today. :-(

I panicked because I couldn't face just talking about D and stuff. I felt like I had to send that one email that states what I desire so....

Because she always says our marriage was a formality, I said we can undo it, and that I hoped in the future she could see things differently (paraphrasing myself).

I made the mistake of saying some things about the OM and that I didn't really think they had so much in common. I know thatwas a mistake, and her response was just that I wouldn't know because I now nothing about him.

She said if things don't work out with OM she thinks she'd rather be alone, and said my problem is that I'm afraid to be alone.

I just replied that she's never been alone, which is true. She's never been without somone to help take care of things. She went from home, to the Air Force, marriage to me, and then twice leaving me for greener pastures.

Wow. This has become quite a learning experience. W emailed me that she thinks I don't think that her and OM really have that much in common because I'm a college educated snob and he has a blue collar job with the state.

Here's the interesting thing. This is total redirection. One of our issues over the years has been her attitude that she's superior to others because of her education. I've always adhered to the notion that I feel like a blue collar guy trapped in a white collar world. I enjoyed college, and it's allowed me to make good money in the tech industry (but not avoid huge debt, LOL). She actually said "his job can't be outsourced to Indians" - like I tout that as a plus for my job? This might indicate how much my worry over that possibility caused a lot of stress in our relationship though. The work from home thing was very stressful during the long periods when she was unemployed and also at home, and I shared too many of my frustrations. I told her I have great respect for people who work with there hands or work there way up in a career. And she knows all this, anyway.

Anyway, I think she's clearly trying to convince herself here, not me. It's bizarre that she can apply that snob label to me.

And one last thing I told her... I never doubted that OM is a good guy. And I said that's all I'll say about that. Because, honestly, I have no reason to believe he isn't a nice guy. Doesn't make me feel better. But I just don't see them having much in common still. Clearly that was a hot-button issue.

Queue sound of crickets chirping... :-/

I know its difficult right now DMR, but you have to STOP talking with her for a little bit, right now your pushing her closer to the OM.

If you do HAVE to talk to her, listen and validate, don't argue over worthless semantics. What are you doing to GAL?

Well, GAL is extremely difficult since I live in the sticks, work from home, have no car at the moment and no friends or family near by. But, when I can, I walk. Thats my exercise and meditation time rolled into one. When I manage to find a car I can add some more activities.

Yes, I've definately tried to NOT discuss OM and in my head I know this. It was all just too much with the barrage of emails she was sending and I didn't respond to all of it.

The reason I relay it here in detail is because if you read through it you'll see that it is so textbook WAS stuff that I want to share it - good and bad. The reason for that is when I see other people's stories that resonate exactly wiyh mine, I find it to be very helpful and it really helps me to try to remember "don't believe anything she says and only half of what you see."

This experience is like going down a river. I can't circle back to the rapids I just went through, so I'll do my best to learn from them and try to handle the next set better.

And I didn't initiate any of that whole disaster this weekend. There was some stuff I couldn't simply ignore, like talk of D and legal stuff, but it did go off the rails, for sure. Thanks for the input.

God, I wish you could EDIT after posting. Must slow, down and take a breath....
;-) What I meant was, she initiated the texts and emails, is all. The disaster.... I'll own up to that. :-(

After all that, I couldn't sleep last night, so when she texted me today and asked if I would be able to go somewhere while she came over to visit the cat and get some stuff, I said I needed to rest today and it wouldn't be a good time. That went ok with no fighting at least.

I see you posted on my thread, so you saw the WAS info i'd gathered.

I need to name that first 3 month cycle they all go thru to "The provoke stage", cause that's all they want to do, create distance. Trust me I know how hard it is to not get caught up, but your playing right into her hands. You are pushing her further away, and soon, if your not careful, you'll push her all the way out, with no coming back.

Since your out in the sticks, can you start a garden? I know its not exactly manly, but it can keep you busy. Have any paint in the ole' garage, touch up the house? Pick some weeds, clear up around the house. Maybe pick a bedroom or living room and rearrange the furniture?

When she sends a text, next time before you respond, the first thing you need to say to yourself is........"Is what I say gonna make it worse...........". You already know nothing you say is gonna make it better.

Slow down.......cause your not gonna get the answers you want right now anyways.

One thing I need to do is not reply to any text/email when I'm not really awake. That's what started the backslide last couple of times. Woke up to email, answered without thinking and fell back to sleep.

Originally Posted By: dmr1965

would pretty much enrage her

So?

Thanks Thumpered. We're already at the stage where she's going to file, because she signed paperwork, and I'll be served.

But, I am going to go completely dark. It has been almost exactly two months since she left. Maybe I can keep my cool for another month and maybe she'll cool off - I know there's no absolutes about these times, but just hoping.... I think she's burned thru a lot of anger, but I'm sure there's a lot still there. I know I pushed her into this and into that R even more. I know it in my head but my heart failed at the critical moment. :-(

It hurts so much, because of the OM thing. I know that other people understand and have felt that hurt, also more than once, as is my case.

I just hope and pray that the foundation this new R is built on has cracks, and that it will crumble. With my health, and the depression, and the isolation, I just don't feel I have enough resources within me to hang in there and stay healthy and employed long enough to see any hope of making it thru this. My job is so demanding - I'm on call again soon, and can't take any time off any time soon.

She always says our marriage was only a convenience anyway (because we lived together for many years). When I did converse (pushing away, I know...) I let her know my intention was not to fight if she wanted to end it, because of that. And when I made the big mistake in talking about her R with OM was to say that if it didn't work out I hoped we might be able to reconnect (or something... paraphrasing myself again).

I only mention this, not to ask for more reminders of why this was just pushing her further. I get that. :-( I mention it because at least she knows my intentions. I do understand that right now even she might not know what she thinks about any of this and I try to remember the rule "don't believe anything she says...."

The one thing I did do right in all that mess was to validate and acknowledge her feelings about how this happened and why when she's tried to express them.

I told her I fully understand how she feels and why she'd feel that way.

And I did that not as any kind of tactic or trick. I've done a lot of soul searching and I know why we're where we're at, at least in respect to how I treated her as a W. I can really see how hurt she's been, and still is, and see that she's not enjoying this, or doing things just to be cruel.

I read somewhere on here about looking at it like that W is gone and that M is gone no matter what, because neither of us would, or should, want it back the way it was.

Maybe I have a different idea of validating than you DMR. I thought we are supposed to make the validating statement ("I understand why you would feel that way") and that's all. Not elaborate or continue. I would appreciate some input from the vets here.

I think you're right. That's what I did, when it came to that topic. Not sure if you're confused about the way I worded that, but
when I said "and why she'd feel that way." I literally meant that I told her those words. I didn't explain why...

The other stuff that got out of control was when I took the bait, I guess and didn't just reply with a nice validating statement.

I really think that my W kind of hoped I'd have been so unhappy in M and living here, that I'd just quickly go back home to be near my family, and she could put everything behind her and move on cleanly. But, I can't see that happening any time soon, no matter how things go for us. I'm stuck here for quite some time.

Also thanks, Thumpered for reminding me there's a gazillion things to do around this house for GAL activity. For one, the place is still filled with packed up boxes since we were in the process of moving before W moved without me. I can organize stuff better, clean, etc.

Went ahead and scheduled my last DB session (I had purchased 3) for next Thurs. Wish I could have afforded 7.

Anyway, going dark, staying dark. This time I mean it.... yeah, I know, just had to say it. :-| Just trying to remind myself that all I can do is do better next time.

I don't have a lot of faith, so hope is all I can say I have. I still can't stop myself from praying for us, even if I'm just asking the universe for just a little nudge. Then I feel selfish because of all the bigger problems in the world.

Just journaling here. No plan to change tactics yet. Just musing.

W was right about me being afraid to be alone. Neither of us has ever really been alone. We're probably both the same in that respect. But now she's back in her home town, but I'm out here, isolated and truly alone.

I so want the pain to end for both of us. I almost want to just say "Goodbye, my love. I'm sorry for all the pain, and I wish you the best in finding happiness."

I just have one suggestion since no one has posted. Cancel your DB session and save it for when you actually see a change in your sitch. You've burned through them very quickly for a scenario that hasn't changed at all.

Thanks. I will consider that.

One of my problems is needing constant reinforcement. Even now I should realize time is my friend, and use every minute wisely. I'm off to IC appt. this morning, although by expensive cab ride again.

I hope the IC session helps. Do you own that house you're living in? Is there some way you could move closer to civilization? Rent an apartment or room? So you would not be so isolated.

I'm so maxed out on the major life stressors. It's been a long haul of working on this place, working on the new place, work, etc.

I do own this place (paying a mortgage, though). I can't move unless I can sell this place. It wasn't going to be an easy sell even if I could get all the needed work done, and right now, everything's on hold. I'm stuck here for the foreseeable future.

I think this was a shock to the W, too. In the fairy tale she's living in, she assumed I'd just immediately sell this place and move back to CO or something. :-/

I was having a nap and pondering about the W texting me and asking me how the cat is doing as I was nodding off. Next thing I know, there's a text. I swear, she can sense when I'm asleep. ;-)

Anyway, she asked a question about car registration and home insurance policy and I answered her questions directly and gave her a cat update and left it at that.

I tiny accomplishment, but it as something. I swear, though, I can almost sense when she's going to text....

psychic connection. My H claims he has it with his OW the Russian Tramp. I hate hate hate her! Good job on the text reply!

Hi dmr,
I can relate to your frustration. Some advice on my part. If you decide to call a DB coach again give it a month at least between sessions. It usually takes a month or two to see your results. More of the same is what you want.

Also, in a previous post you compared infidelity to alcoholism. I can tell you that alcoholism is usually tied to infidelity. I found a lot of support going to al anon mtgs. It was a great way of GAL and when I walked in those rooms, I felt the comfort and warmth that was missing in my life. Great support system.

Lastly, make your 180 "being patient." Practice it everyday, all day. While in the car, in line, at home. Practice practice practice. It will help you break that old impatient habit and create better relationships with those currently in your life and new people!

Take care of DMR!!

Thanks. She just texted back and asked "just out of curiosity, were you going to give me the car registration sticker if I hadn't asked?"

I just answered "yes."

Go, me. LOL

Thanks for the advice, 2chiquitos, and Bond. I'll cancel this one and hold the line for a bit.

I panicked when the D talk started, but then she did snoop and find my journal last week and no doubt saw my note about mixed signals and no D talk. I think that pushed her to see the L. I don't know why I left that notebook behind when I took my DR book with me.... DOH!

She's coming to visit kitty and get some stuff tonight. I'll be going for a walk, but my DR book and notebook are going to be well hidden or with me this time! I don't think either one of us is ready to sit and chat or have me puttering about while she's collecting stuff to take with her.

She said it would be after 8:00 and of course I wondered what's going on before 8:00, but let that thought recede and not dwell on it.

Sorry about The Russian Tramp. Detach, detach.... Yeah, I'm one to talk, I know....

That last one was for Linda - should have quoted her...

Setting boundary of screwing up? W texted me from house (old house, where I'm stck) while she's there to get some stuff. I had left the title to the new house on the counter with the car registration. She wrote: "Since I see the letter where is the original deed ? If you hide it I will let my atty know"

I asked her to ease stop accusing me of stuff and that I put those papers there for her. I should have left it at that but I asked why she does that.

I finished with: "I'm sure you are under a lot of stress, so I'm not upset by it, but it does hurt."

Which is a bit contradictory, but I'm not saying another peep about it! Yikes.

She drove by as I was walking home, and I tried to wave, but not sure she noticed. It was dark, and as it was I couldn't tell it was her until the car was right near me. Love walking at night on narrow rural roads.

Anyway, I hope I didn't look like a nut squinting in the headlights trying to see if that was our car that was about to narrowly miss me. She was probably pissed about that text... but, there's that attempted mind-reading again. Let it go, DMR, let it go....

She didn't text me to say she was leaving, like last time she was here. On the upside, if she could see me clearly in the headlights, I'm looking trim (from the depression diet) and had on a nice, new button up shirt. ;-)

Just don't know where to find the strength for this. Today was long and stressful, with the early cab ride to IC, walk to store, cab ride back. Didn't sleep well last night. Napped when I should have been working. <sigh>

If it weren't for the cats, I think I would just leave and go visit relatives in turn until they got sick of me, and/or flop at my brother's house for a good long while. As long as there's internet, I can work.

I shouldn't do this, but I can't help wondering if W felt guilty here, knowing I was walking because she selfishly took the car, and knowing how I hate it here and how much I was looking forward to the move. I just know in my heart that she is not finding happiness externally. I don't know how I know this, but I do. Just the little signs, maybe.

But, that doesn't help me when she's pushing herself and pushing my buttons if I don't keep to my resolve and my LRT. :-(

there are kennels that care for pets while people are out of town...

Speaking of the cats. Need some timely advice on this one!

She just texted me that she wanted to take the older cat (she hates the other one) and she wanted to come straight after work, and it's ok if I'm there (usually wants me to be somewhere else if she's picking stuff up).

We've never discussed splitting up the cats. She just assumed she'd take him, like she assumed she'd live in the new house and take the car.

I'd like more time with the cat as long as I'm here anyway. On the other hand, last time we went through this, letting her take our cat to her apartment was a way that I got to visit later, and let her see me looking good, in some new clothes, and looking trim. That surprised her a lot. And I kept the convo short and ended it and left without hanging out or being needy.

But, you know this time I've been answering all texts, too soon and with too much info. Maybe I should let this one go by. She can always ask again later....

She just texted again saying "it doesn't look like you've been keeping the place clean and Winston (the cat) didn't look very happy."

So now it's turned into something that's my fault again. :-(Believe me, the place is as clean or cleaner than it was when she was here. And the few times I was at the other house when she started living there, it was a total mess.

She said Monday after work would also be ok. Still thinking of not answering. At least for the 48 hr rule?

"I'm sorry you feel that way."

Thanks catperson. She kept on texting, so I figured I'd better say something. She said "or am I just not allowed to have a cat?" I wasn't that succinct, but I did say "I'm sorry I didn't appreciate the work you did here or help enough." I wish I'd have worded it like you said - more her and less me! I told her Monday would be ok, but I wanted to see him too.

She answered back that I can see him some weekends, "if I don't give her a hard time about paperwork signing, and stuff" <sigh> (visitation rights for a cat - see what happens with us childless couples).

But, we're back to the way she's always been, though about being independent (not). She said she might have to use the CC to buy some furniture because "she's giving me all the furniture." And "I don't know if you're willing to split that expense."

This is where it's hard to not be a doormat.... Last week it was "you need to get your own credit card" when I used it for a rental care because she left me here with no car. I'm just letting that one sit for a while. Not sure what changed there. I know she's always been selfish. She's acknowledged that fault herself. She was a single child and was basically neglected and has always really struggled with ideas of what's fair and of sharing. Anyway....

At least she's stopped telling me about R with OM every time and how she's found a connection with someone, blah blah blah.... Used to get that with every text/email.

She just texted to ask how the car search is going, and said it's not good for me not to have one and to be stuck in this house all the time.

Ya think?! LOL

Its the first time she's acknowledged any concern for my situation ans wellbeing.

That's a good sign for a change! Did you respond?

"Its the first time she's acknowledged any concern for my situation ans wellbeing."

It's not concern. WASs will often say things like that to alleviate their own guilt. If she was worried about your well being, she would mention options.

Don't respond.

Could be guilt, could be concern, could be a mix of both. Trying not to assign too much too it. But I do detect a lot of guilt lately, and definately still a lot of the provoking behavior.

Have to remember that "don't believe anything she says and only half of what you see" applies to things that sound good or bad.

It's a marathon, not a sprint. Staying the course.

Got the jungle... er, lawn mowed today, and trimmed a tree that was hanging over the house. Not the most exciting GAL activity, but it was nice to be out and getting some excercise. And it was cloudy, breezy and cool.

I'm an avid Gardner and when H left I let it slide......my parents got in gear and built the container gardens he was supposed to build, bought me some veggies and now I'm gardening again and it feels good to be out there, get fresh air, do some thing productive.....way to go!

Thanks. Doing work on the house and yard has always been something I like doing. Even when I don't particularly like the house. :-/

So, today's text (they seem to be daily now) is about waiting beyond monday to take the one cat to the house with her, because she wants to get a couch first. And to ask if she can visit him tomorrow. Also, if she can take a leather reading chair (it was mostly hers anyway) but wanting to know if I could take the back off so it'll fit in the car.

The mind reels. Of course I just wondered who'll help her put it back together if I take it apart and load it in the car.... Ugh.

Also, the pattern is happening just like last time, where even as she was determined to show independence (buying a new couch) she asks me for stuff or for help more and more.

After the last time she came and the comment about the house, I plan to clean the place top to bottom and end to end. I feel as nervous about actually seeing her as the first time 5 yrs ago when I first visited her at the apartment she moved to.

Haven't answered yet. Going to wait until this afternoon. Right now, just doing household chores takes me some effort to work up the energy, although I have been keeping dishes clean and laundry done.

I notice she has gone from, "can you leave the house so I can visit, or get stuff', to "it's ok if you're there" and "can you help with...."

Of course I wonder if this is her being more comfortable in her situation, or if she's just trying to get a look and see if I'm a quivering depressed wreck.

Breath deep. Let the thought recede. Can't read her mind.

DMR,

I saw your post to me on another page, sorry it took a few days, don't seem to have much computer time anymore.

First of all, weird coincidences - I used to live in CO and now I live about 45 mins south of Saratoga!

Here are a few things I can suggest:

Do your best to improve your self talk, it is very negative. "I am stuck in this crappy house" doesn't help you. I am sure it feels that way, esp being there alone but try to remember why you bought it in the first place and change that thought to "It is so peaceful out here", or whatever. If you can start making small changes to your thoughts, your situation will feel better before anything even changes..except your mind!

LRT - absolutely. However, do not feel that her signing divorce papers means it is over. As you know, there are people on this forum who have R after D.

I know it is hard to not send that text, email, leave a message, whatever when she contacts you and even harder not to slip up and say too much. That being said, you MUST master this. I can guarantee you that MWD is right and when you profess your love she is turned off right now, when you say she doesn't have anything in common with OM she thinks how much better he is than you (Not saying he really is but he is in her mind, right now)and thank God you didn't send flowers!

I don't know what is going on in her mind but I do know that the vets are all correct, there isn't anything you can say or do today to change her mind. Just keep focusing on you. Every time you have a negative thought (about anything), replace it immediately with a positive one.

If your WAW was lonely and unhappy for years, it isn't going to take 2 months away with her seeing a little change in you to make her want to work things out. Your only job right now is to improve you. You cannot do it for your M, you have to do it for YOU, because you want it. It may save your M in the long run but that cannot be the only reason you make changes. You know what happens then, you end up back here because you change back after your WAW returns.

It sounds like she does reach out for things she doesn't need to so she may be confused about what she wants. Even if she moves full steam ahead, she may be unsure inside and ignoring those warnings.

Right now, your W probably thinks OM is the best person ever, she probably thinks they are "meant" to be together, etc.. She has no reason not to because he filled a void that she had for a long time, a void left by your M, she is feeling happier than she has in years. You cannot compete with that and anything you do to try to will just turn her off and push her further away. What you can do is work on yourself because one day (a month, 6 months, 12 months?) she isn't going to have blinders on regarding OM and how amazing he is. That is when she is going to look at you again and wonder what she gave up. Is she going to see a depressed ex or a man only a fool would leave?

Thanks, lovethehub. Very thoughtful and thorough summary. Some hard truths, but my head already knew them, if my heart doesn't quite get it.

There has been more instances of her asking about how I'm doing and also asking me for help with little things. She also asked if she could bring me some groceries, and how I was getting them. I thanked her and said I'd think about it. I'll tell her it's not necessary, because this is was always an issue for us - she always wanted me to help with the shopping more even if she wasn't working and I was, and I often moped, whined and fussed about it. I don't want her having those thoughts while shopping for me! But I'll thank her again for asking.

I have stopped cold with mentioning R, OM, my situation here, etc. and have been validating if she says something that indicates she's feeling bad about something, or is angry about something, or whatever her feelings are. She'll be stopping by tomorrow to pick up the chair. I already got the lawn mowed, and I'm going to clean the house thoroughly, and I will be clean and shaved and lookin' good, not looking sad, depressed, or generally icky. :-)

It was too late to stop my coaching session that I'd already scheduled, but it was very productive and didn't feel like a waste of money to me. Laurie is very good at making sure I have a plan and the main focus was promising her and myself that I won't make major decisions on a bad day. She's also very good at helping me sort through all the inputs and help decide if some things are positive changes based on past experiences and my particular relationship with W VS just generalization.

Does getting paged while on-call count as GAL? ;-)

Actually, since I couldn't sleep tonight, instead of watching TV, I started cleaning the house. I cleaned like I was in basic training! Literally when it came to bathroom floor, because I discovered W took the mop to the other house! So, I scrubbed that floor by hand!

I'll say this, W was right. I didn't notice what a sty the place was. I thought I was doing good because I was keeping the dishes done. Doh!

I started scrubbing and cleaning at 11:00 PM, and was still going at 1:00 AM when I got paged. Worked until 6:00 AM, then cleaned some more. Wishing I didn't drink an iced coffee after that. Must get some rest.

W decided to do laundry when she comes over after work, so I need to be ready for first contact since.... A couple weeks I guess. Can't even remember.

'

You need to stop acting like her friend. If you're not going to be together, you're not going to be friends. It's the best thing she can hear from you.

Being friends is better than nothing, and the only hope for any possible reconciliation. Last time around, it was being friends that reversed the course for us.

It's so much a rerun of last time around it's almost surreal. Doesn't mean the outcome can't be different, so I'll try to remember the line about expectations.

That was predictably awkward. She looks like a nervous wreck. She's looking very gaunt and tired.

I loaded the chair in the car for her when she got here. She came out and kind of helped - not sure if it was really to help or to keep an eye on me. I told her when she got here how tired I was from the on-call work last night and that I was going to go in the back room and have a nap on the couch out there. So, I napped, she did laundry and left. No drama or major mishaps. It may have been awkward for her with me out there napping, but I was exhausted. Didn't really sleep at all last night or this morning after working, and I worked a little this afternoon.

The only power-play on her part was that when she left, she took my car key, without asking. Notice that she still has keys to this house. No understanding the mind of the WAW. :-/

She did text me to say "I took the key to the car. I'm sorry...." Weird. But, I'm not surprised by weird any more.

I'm still stoked about my great house cleaning adventure. It felt good, and it feels good to be in a clean, sparkling, good smelling house.

If I'm going to be stuck here most of the time working, may as well not be a pig sty. :-)

Oh, I did remember there is something deeper about that car key. Way before the DBing days, after BD #1, when she was only a block away at OM's apartment, I got pissed and walked up there and moved the car back down the block. He he. Forgot about that one. She threw that out there during one of our email fights a couple weeks ago, mentioning that I "stole her car..." not that it was *hers* in the sense that we mostly shared one car and I paid 100% of it, but...

I'm letting it slide on by. She has this car, I'm getting another one, so why fight over the key, when she 'fessed up anyway.

She was back to get some stuff and sat with the cat for a while. Surprised me texting on a Sat at 8:00. I said if it was ok I was still hanging out resting from my on-call schedule. I was just hanging on the couch, nodding off a bit while she took a few more boxes of stuff we had already packed up back when both of us were supposed to be moving to the new house. <Sigh>

Mentioned alternating time with him (not to make light of those with kids - can't even imagine what it must be like for you. We're one of those annoying childless couples with spoiled pets). She was even nice to the cat she doesn't really like.

Don't know if she's getting more comfortable being on her own (such as it is - last night she asked me to check the credit card statement to see if the couch she ordered had been billed. Remember, this was *her* card before and she was mad that I had used it to rent the car when she left me stuck here) but it's nice that she no longer sends angry messages, things from the past, or anything about OM. Of course my mind still goes on it's own flights of fancy now and then but I seem to be getting better at stopping it. So, hoping she's burned through her anger phase, and doesn't loop back into it.

Anyway, less awkward today, and even smiled as she left. It is a bit sad having interactions like friends or business partners, but it's better than fighting or arguing. I cannot even imagine what it's like for those who are in the same house with a WAS or MLC spouse. :-/

DMR,

Sorry to here about your situation. I am in the same boat as you. My W is filing too. Just waiting to served. We are still living together for now for financial reasons.

We went to MC yesterday and this is when she finally stated that she wanted a D. She has been carrying that decision around for quite sometime which has caused her a lot of stress.

Now that she has got it out in the open, she has reverted back to the wonderful woman I married. I feel that the weight of our situation has been lifted off her shoulders. She is outwardly happy towards me and talks to me like a human being again. It was as is a light switch was turned on and there she was.

Its nice to see the her acting like her old self. Too bad it took a D for that to happen.

Best of luck to you.

BKS

Thanks BKS. Today it was such a change that it does have my mind reeling. It could be acceptance, it could be that yesterday went well and she's more comfortable interacting because of that. It could be she had a good time last night, if you know what I mean.... :-(

I was at a bit of a disadvantage in that I was asleep on the couch when she came over, but she knew I was exhausted from work, and she usually texts that she's heading over. She must have left right after asking if it was ok.

She texted that she wasn't "stealing kitchen stuff" and that she'd go thru it and give half back, same for DVDs (this stuff was already packed for our move). I let that go without reply. I don't care about any of that, but it shows that she still feels entitled to anything. On the other hand, in her limited way, she is at least trying to be fair. That was exactly how it went last time around, too.

So, today I was level, then a bit up, then down a lot from thinking about it too much again. Slept all day, so still physically on the night shift. Ugh. Maybe I'll walk to store for exercise and provisions.

GAL, even if your mind and body are saying no! :-)

Just wanted to share a couple things I stumbled on today back to back while watching some Ted Talks videos on Netflix streaming (if that means nothing to you, no big deal. Please read on). They both resonated with me for GAL and I listed them in the order of how cool I thought they were! None of these may resonate, but if, like me, you suffer from depression, stress and health issues, and don't like to just use medication to numb the pain, you may find these interesting.

I had already been investigating Mindfulness (the less new age way to say meditation). It's something I have dabbled with in the past, but it seems to have come a long way as a discipline without all the spiritual stuff if, like me, you find that to be distracting. It's a big part of the 8 week stress reduction/pain management class my counselor recommended for me. Until that starts, I'm reading/practicing on my own with a book called Mindfullnes: An Eight-Week Plan for Finding Peace in a Frantic World . The link is for the book and their supporting web site. Of course it's at Amazon, too. :-)

Jane McGonigal: The game that can give you 10 extra years of life
This one is just hard to describe, but worth giving a chance. Watch the vid, and see if Jane doesn't start making you feel hopeful and a bit happy despite yourself and your situation! I was skeptical because I can't even really play computer games because of tendinitis issues, but it's not even about that, so don't let that throw you when she talks about her enthusiasm for video games - she is a game designer after all. ;-)
Jane's SuperBetter video
SuperBetter game site

Andy Puddicombe: All it takes is 10 mindful minutes
This is another mindfullness approach, with a good web site, but I'm sticking to the book referenced above and the on-site program if I can remember to get registered for it! :-)
Andy's 10 mintes of doing nothing video
Andy's mindfulness site

If I can't find the strength for the marathon, can I do 1,000 sprints?

Journaling, musing, pondering about things I *know* I can't say anywhere but here.

If she wonders why I don't just sell the house and move away (she did once, but hasn't asked again), there's the non-DBer inside me who wants to say:

"You know my hopes and dreams were all tied up in us moving together to our new home. (This was the last house I can foresee ever owning in my lifetime, given age and finances - just don't want to keep taking on mortgages that'll outlive me!) All the plans we made for home improvements and decorating together and were just beginning to implement. (My hours spent watching DIY shows and remembering all the work I did on our previous home was my prime GAL activity!). The office that was going to give me a better place to work, and the city that was going to let me return to the days when I could safely walk around the block to get the exercise I need to maintain my mental and physical health."

I just hope she *knows* all of this, even if it's just a tiny seed of a thought.

I'm just a little off-kilter today because of the seemingly massive change in her, literally over night (see previous few of my flood of posts). From looking haggard and exhausted to cheerful and happy. I know this is still right in keeping with WAS behavior, but it's still a shock to the LBS with an overactive imagination. Anyway, I *know* that I'm not to base how I feel on how she looks/acts/what she says, etc.

Did my meditation today, and am going to exercise a bit.

DMR,

I know what you mean about the about-face the WAS can do with respect to their attitudes. One day its negative and no talking and the next they act like your best friend.

If I were you I would not read into it. WAS can display behaviors that we least expect. They will say and do things to get a reaction out of you. What matters most, I believe, is how you react to her actions and behaviors. Always PMA with the WAS. Even if it hurts. I still have trouble with this but acting AsIf helps over time with getting your emotions under control.

That is where my W is now. After she told our MC that she wants a D, a couple hours later she was acting like the wife I was married to just 5 month ago.

I think that getting that off her chest has allowed her some peace and stress relief. I was admonished by her not to read into her being pleasant towards me as a sign that she is willing to work through our issues, so I wont.

Until I am served papers I will just enjoy our time together and keep working on being the man she would be a fool to leave. We will see what happens.

Yeah. On another post, someone quoted MWD saying that if your W has been distant, and you're separated, then starts asking for little favors, to view it as a good sign. Mine seems to think of some question or thing to text about every day, so I'm just playing it cool and answering nicely, or helping, like when I dissasembled her chair and loaded it in the car.

Today it was a text asking for the info on the CC (the one that went from "her card" back to "the card"). I apologized for it taking a long time to get back to her (mysterious me must have been busy.... ;-) Really I was napping 'cause my sleep schedule is messed up).

Last night I had another one of those moments... well, hours, where I couldn't stop re-hashing how things went down since BD #2. What was really killing me is when W texted me wanting to go to a movie and I told her I couldn't make it. I thought I was doing a good DB thing by not being too available or eager. I actually kind of panicked because I was doing a GAL activity - I was at that very movie, in the town we were supposed to be moving to, and I didn't want her to think I was over there spying or snooping on her.

That was the last time she wanted to do anything with me.

I know in my head that this kind of thinking does no good, and I did check the behavior and break the spiral, but it took many tries.

Feeling oddly calm and detached today. Thinking it might be mostly exhaustion, though. I did get some exercise in yesterday, both walking to the store and afterwards when I couldn't sleep.

On the other hand, the brain does get tired after a while of rehashing the same things and finally goes a bit numb. I'm enjoying the relief and clarity for the moment. It would be nice to be able to feel this way all the time.

I probably wasn't thinking too clearly then, but when I signed up for DB Coaching, I used the CC that W has access to now. She's never been one to dig into the bills too much, and I just set it up for her to get a paper bill. But not happy that the DB 303 phone number shows up on there. For someone as snoopy as my W, if she does notice it, she'll probably look into it.

Here's hoping it goes on by and she doesn't see that statement.

W wants some financial info. I'll get it for her, of course, but....

I so want to ask her what changed from the time when she said we could take some time, and wanted to go to dinner and a movie. Even as a rhetorical question. :-(

Just saying nothing I guess. This is where I think I went wrong before. I panicked and laid my cards on the table when D talk first came up. Hold steady, right?

I did notice when was here last she was looking at a small curtain that was part if a set (the rest was in a box she was taking to new place) and perfect colors for the kitchen colors at the new house. I dropped it in the mail with a note just saying that I think it's part of a set. She knows I saw her looking at it.

Been doing good the last 2 days, but could really use some support/advice on my previous comment. Thanks, DB friends!

Well, just can't seem to do better than 50%, but since there's no hard/fast rules, I still get confused in my responses.

She sent me another long message about feeling like roommates for years, said I probably hate her, or will, (I think she means when I get the paperwork).

I did very well at validating what she feels, but damn it, I could not stop myself mentioning some of the things we have in common (that she's mentioned before). I said that looking back, its easy to see all the bad stuff, and I won't deny they exist.

She keeps trying to tell me she didn't plan to hurt me or scheme take that house, and tells me I should go back to CO where I can be happy, etc. Because she's not being mean, angry or vindictive anymore, it lulled me into saying too much again.

One thing she mentioned is a female friend I met right here on DB forums, who lives in CO. She said she alway knew I had something for her.... I know that was fishing/validating her R with OM, but I just told here we've always just been friends trying to offer advice on relationship issues from the perspective of the opposite sex, which is true. She knows I met her on a forum for discussing relationships.

I'm not religious or spiritual, and I don't believe in fate or that things happen for any real reason. But, if you were to follow my journey from the beginning, through us getting back together, then failing at piecing, then my musing about leaving, all the way to where we're at now, it's a perfect example of a self fulfilling prophecy. I fully accept my responsibility for creating this situation over the years.

I don't know how I could be so unhappy every day, but then like a switch, go to being desperate to keep the M. I know MWD has covered this, and I've seen others on here express the same thing happening. Is it just fear? Is it just that I can't take another blow after one previous D, then almost another, plus years of financial strain, all the moving, losing my house in CO that I loved, and non-stop brutal job stress?

I *am* scared of being alone here. I still can't manage to find a car (rental cars are expensive and I can't manage much more expense so can't buy much of a car anyway). Facing the winter out here in the sticks. I have health problems and money problems, so digging a long driveway out of the snow is difficult even when I had help and I can't afford to pay someone to plow for me. I still have a crappy house that needs work needs work and probably can't sell. W thinks I can just run off and make a new life, but she's only been able to do this because she took the house and car and found someone to supply love and support.

Sorry for the litany of complaints. I promised my DB coach not to make major decisions while down, and I do still plan to cooperate with W and DB as much as possible. If you know my story here, our M was "of convenience" in W's words after co-habitating for years. I would like nothing more than to do it over in a more romantic way if by some chance her R with OM fails and she does see me as not being the cause of all her misery. I know this is a long shot, but all I have is hope at the moment, and a tough road ahead just trying to get by and stay employed. If I lose my job, I'm sunk. There's no work around here for me that'll even pay the bills, and I'll be forced to go back home and rely on family until I can start over. Hoping to avoid that, but the work takes so much and with all this going on, it sure is hard to be an outstanding employee.

Bankruptcy is always an option if it completely falls apart, but for now, do what you can do. And that would be taking the baby steps you need and take it day by day. Don't get ahead of yourself.

Don't panic about the future, its not written yet. Don't worry about the past, just make the changes you need to make, and you'll get there, either way the marriage plays out.

Just give her the time and space she needs now, and really, you need it as well. Time is on your side.

Good luck, and take care of yourself.

Thanks, Thumpered. That really helped right now. I'm trying to live "in the moment." I did get signed up for the 8 week stress management / pain reduction class my counselor referced me to, and part of it is covered by insurance. It's doesn't start until September, but I guess that gives me something to look forward to.

When I sent my W the info on the mortgage, I sent a summary of all of our debts. Because I always paid the bills, I thinks she's in for a shock - I thinks she's forgotten about half of what we're still paying for. Not even sure she knew the car wasn't paid off yet.

Very serious issue I need help with:

Years ago, when were were in college and we had a fight and it seemed we might split up, my W threatened to kill herself because she had no family and would be alone.

After we almost split up last time, when we tried to go back to CO, we had a pretty big fight - the first one where stuff from BD #1 and PA #1 came up. I stormed off and went to a movie to cool down. She texted me threatening to kill herself, saying "I won't be a problem anymore" or something.

How come, she can be *that* distraught, when she's not in a secure position, but then turn around and have no problem telling me know that she can (almost) support herself, that she doesn't expect me to forgive her or be happy for her while she does something that tears my heart out. I know that's classic MLC/WAS behavior, but it's killing me because I wan't so bad to ask her that directly. I know I can't, from a DB perspective, but it's so freaking hard.

It's not MLC behavior. It's straight out manipulation. She does it because it works on you. The next time she tells you that, call 911 and tell them she's threatening to kill herself. Let her deal with the paramedics.

I was right about her not understanding our financial situation. She said she thought the car was much closer to being paid off, and didn't realize how much other debt there was. She seems to realize my job situation is perilous (it always is with the outsourcing of computer jobs anyway) and that I'm not necessarily going to be a permanent source of income.

I think she also notices my attempts to respond differently - she calls it "rationalizing" and "not "listening." Not sure if that's standard fare for the WAS/MLC spouse to reply to the LBS, but it seems about right. :-/

She also acknowledged that it was not very kind to leave me stuck without a car and offered to bring me groceries/pharmacy stuff while I was looking for something, but she said we should have 2 cars and seemed to think demanding money for "a junker" to replace "her" car was acceptable.

Had to bite my tongue and let that slide, only because I agree that we should have 2 cars and have been looking for another one. I understand that she still feels the need to reply with a provocation or accusation - I thought we may have moved beyond that, but the financial discussion seems to have opened that up a bit again.

Well, are you listening? Only you and her are gonna know that.

Second, you are probably trying to rationalize what she's thinking, when she doenst even know what shes thinking half the time. Put the facts out there when she asks, that's all you can do, you get in a dangerous place when you try to think what she's thinking, or justify it as just WAS/MLC talk.

Its best to try to not think about it one way or that other, just treat it as it is what it is.

About the listening, I am, but I think what she's saying is that I'm not agreeing that it's best to get a D quickly so she can be happy, etc. So, in that respect, I guess DBing by it's very nature is "not listening." But I try to validate her feelings every time we interact, so if that's what she means, she'll probably see that as "not listening."

Therein lies the problem of course. Trying to watch for meaningful communication when we can't trust what they say. I keep hearing MWD saying "your W will tell you in no uncertain terms that she was never happy in the relationship..." True that!

Staying the course. She knows my stance on the D, and waiting to see if her infatuation lasts (not that I said that directly to her that way), but that I won't purposely delay or try to hide from a process server or anything like that. She's very afraid of that and keeps giving me dire warnings of bringing more trouble to myself if I do that - I just let those slide. There's no response I could give on that.

She sent me a pic of a used car on FB that was local to where she is. I said the price looks right.

She said "Just showing you a car under $1000".

Not entirely sure of the point. If she meant for her to buy, or for me. I told her "thanks, I've looked on craigslist and such and realize there are some out there."

It doesn't help me if I can't get to where it is. Not taking a $100 cab ride to view a car that might be a total clunker.

But, I don't see this as a genuine attempt to help the situation, so just left it at that. Not even going to ask for clarification on it, because I'm positive she'll just blow up again.

Linda, I seem to have lost track of your post, but you refer to "the Russian tramp." I have dubbed W's OM "the contractor." :-(

Did good GAL activity for still being home bound. Went for a pretty good walk, then did some exercise when I got home, then did 15 minute meditation (guided, via MP3).

Was a tough morning with a lot of back/forth with W about finances. I was right about her not understanding how much I was actually paying for still, and she sure doesn't have any qualms about playing the income disparity and asking me for stuff. She got much more civil when the financial situation sunk in. I can't even imagine what it's like to tell someone how perfect the OM is, how you've never been happy in the M, but it's ok that you mostly supported me for years and I want more of that, thanks. Geez.

I have read the WAW chapters and watched Michele's vids on YouTube enough that I do get that this is not unexpected behavior, nor is her accusing me of drama if I say anything that contradicts her feelings, but to feel free to lash out at me any time for anything.

I got back on track, DB-wise, and we got back to discussing my lack of transportation. She did try to make suggestions about how we can get another car, who should drive which, etc. She offered again to bring me some groceries or stuff from the pharmacy.

Weird. For some reason our conversations seem to have gone from email to text to Facebook messaging. So, basically, all of our personal problems are being archived and parsed for their advertising value. Seriously, FB is starting to show me adds for dating sites and divorce stuff. :-(

Before I ever heard of DBing, my doctor told me about his friends who got divorced. They remained civil, and started being friends, and communicating more and more. Eventually they remarried. It was the first DB story I ever heard and probably gave me the little spark of hope and the wisdom to not be bitter and angry, like I was with my first ex. Anyway, I thought I'd share that story.

We are able to have nice, simple communications, via FB msg, txt, etc. about the house. She thanked me for sending the curtain, and asked about some other curtain related business. I just replied with a friendly joke about curtains always being too long or too short (we've done a lot of curtain shopping/fitting together, with all the moves we've made).

It's hard, but I try to remember that this is an important thing, being able to communicate at all. Many don't even have that right now.

Was a bad day for me in that I slept too much again and let my blood sugar get a bit low. Bit rainy, but I'll try to get a walk in. Need to get sleep/work back on track!

A few more steps in the marathon! Staying the course.

So... thought I might get some sleep. Was winding down at 12:45 AM... and got paged for work. Still on the call, but sneaking a moment here because I'm just listening to the chatter.

And at 9 PM tonight, I have a software deployment to do. It could be 2 hrs and go smooth... or it could be a 6 hr nightmare. In between, of course, I'm expected to continue the usual workload. Working for a large corporation pretty much means I'm just a cog in the machinery. They only care about my health/mental health in how it affects my performance.

On top of all this, I am expecting a process server any day now (maybe today, even). :-(

Really starting to hate FB. My W has started messaging me there now, so I get on to check (not that I'm not on there too much already), but I CAN NOT stop myself from checking her profile. She's been very quiet, but today she had a post from a friend at work about a Zumba class, and it just made me sadder about her having this new life while I live like a prisoner here in the sticks. W is not very social, and this is very unlike her - of course I know she's going to be doing stuff, and I need to detach, but... at least this failure I can share here and try to do better.

Why can't YOU move out, maybe share an apartment with someone, in town so you don't need a car so much?

We're not living together. She took over the new house we were buying. I can't sell this place any time soon. Probably won't be able to sell it at all. Market is essentially flat and this place is an old mobile home with attachments built on it. So, short of financial ruin, I'm stuck for some time.

IMHO, you should move into your new home. Why are you getting the leftovers? You pay for the new home also, correct?

Not entirely. And she works in that town. Only reason to try to do that is out of spite. It's not going to make a difference financially.

But, I have pondered the various possibilities, including selling that house.

Good day today. After another couple tough all-nighters for work, I got some good rest, then got in a good walk to the store,, some excercise and a bit of cleaning.

Had a good txt convo with W. She's coming to see the cat tomorrow, and offered again to bring me something from the store. This time I said yes, please and thank you. :-)

She said she'd brink me her diet Coke, because she's stopped drinking it. If you new my W you'd know that an alien has to have taken over her body for this to happen (I let it slide that the reasons she gave for it are things I had meantioned several time, but she didn't listen to me. ;-). Goes along with her going to a Zumba class.

Anyway, I just said "Wow. Good for you!"

Wish me luck being on my best DB behavior tomorrow, especially if brings up D stuff.

Chirp, chirp, chirp. Those are the crickets. ;-)

Journaling....

W is on the way over to visit the kitty. The place is clean. I'm looking good, smelling great, shaved, combed, fluffed, etc.

Deep breaths. Stay the course.

Kind of irritating that when she comes over it's like a shopping spree. She just takes things like one of 2 matching end tables....

It doesn't really bother me because I want any of it - we've been working on getting out of debt, and have moves so much, that all of our furniture is crap, anyway.

It's just that she assumes so much. :-/

So what's with that mentality? Besides taking an end table, she took some more curtains down from the back room, *then* told me - she said "I took these curtains, but I brought the other ones" (that didn't fit the windows at the new place). She's very quiet and acting kind of skittish and shy. It's not like she's being demanding or acts like she owns everything. I'm wondering if it's because I said early on that I don't care about stuff, and we both hate this place, so she figures I don't care what it looks like?

Don't know, and I realize a WAW is as bad as an MLCer in some ways (and their may be a bit of MLC in there, too).

Talk about runaway thoughts. When she said she gave up drinking diet Coke because of aspartame depleting calcium, I looked it up and the first thing I see is that pregnant women should not drink it! Aaaaaahhh!

OK. Calming down now. I have enough problems without inventing more.

Since no one is responding, I'll put in my two cents which you'll probably argue about anyway. But it seems like you're letting her cross over too many boundaries right now. She's cherry picking what she wants and what she doesn't and leaving you with the scraps.

If you don't start dictating what YOU want in life, she will continue to do that. AND she's building a nice, cozy love nest for her and the OM. That's what it seems like to me.

I think she was s little upset that when she held the cat he wiggled and cried to get down. I saw her looking out the back window for a moment looking pensive and thoughtful. No way to know what's going on in there, but still get a vibe that things aren't as rosy as she makes them out to be.

Sad for her as well as me. Still counting this as a good day, though.

Going to get my excercise and meditation in tonight. Go, me. :-)

Hi dmr, I haven't read your whole situation yet, just the last few replies. Does it bother you when she comes over or are you ok with that? As Mr. Bond had stated you might want to set boundaries.

Originally Posted By: dmr1965

Anyone else ever have a WAS snoop and find their DB notes, or have a negative reaction to their efforts at changing their behavior?

Yes! I found out that my H had been reading my posts on this forum!! I have no idea how much he read but the thought scares me. I also feel that he invaded my privacy by reading it, and it upsets me because this is my support that I need in dealing with everything going on.

About the stuff:

It doesn't bother me, and she could have taken all the stuff in one truckload, and I wouldn't have cared. I had said she could have whatever she wants, because it's just stuff. Maybe she took me at my word. So, going back on that does nothing for my character.

If I leave this place, I'm taking nothing with me but a few keepsakes and some clothes. That's not depression speaking, or a flippant reaction. In addition to working to pay off debts for many years, we have gotten rid of tons of stuff (dejunking, as they say). About the only thing I've failed to scale back on is tools. If I don't leave this place, there's still more stuff here than I want or need.

I've mentioned before that she's inherently selfish (by her own admission). She attributed it to being only child with an absent father, an abusive alcoholic mother, and problems with her step-father. She said she never learned to share well. She may have an inflated sense of entitlement to stuff, and financial help from me, but so far it's been within my own personal boundaries.

The one thing that really hurts is that she left on her birthday, before I got up. I had her birthday gift and card ready. Later on when she first came over to get some stuff, she put them in a cabinet, and there they sit. Every time I see them behind the glass door, it makes me a bit sad, but I haven't had the heart to do anything with them. I suppose could mail them to her, and she could toss them out if she wants. For now, I've just been acting like I haven't even noticed.

About the snooping:

I, too, felt that the snooping into my notebook was an invasion of privacy. We've both done that before and have had "discussions" about it - not productive ones, but heat of the moment stuff. I didn't mention much about it at the time, because it would have just been more pushing away.

From things she said, I think she believes I must have someone (she's always been very jealous, and given the state of our love life, she probably thinks I must have had another outlet). She called me on my friendship with a female friend back in CO I met on this forum - and at one point it may have drifted to EA status, but that was back in our first separation. Not saying that makes it right, but often the LBS feels the need to have someone to confide in to make them feel human and desirable again. She said I should consider that option and go back to CO. When I explained that there was no physical/emotional connection there, she said sarcastically that it's clear that "I'm a better person than her."

I realized looking back a few posts that I said it did and didn't bother me, the way she takes stuff. It was just that it seems so odd to act that way at the time. What bothers me is that I can't figure out WTF she's thinking when she does stuff like that (and neither can anyone else - maybe not even her).

Bottom line, though, it's not about the value of the furniture, or any of the other material stuff.

W thanked me today for "accepting service" and said "I'm sorry." (which means that this time when process server knocked on the door, I was actually awake).

Now I'm in back in a bout of deep heartache - thinking of OM and her again. If she had just wanted time apart and all that, I would be on board with that and able to focus more on the changes I need to make.

I'm still sticking to DBing up to and for some time after a D. We've been here before. Not sure if that makes the odds any better, the same, or much worse. Probably depends entirely on R with OM, just like last time. I know how strongly W feels our M wasn't real (a token, a M of convenience, etc. because we never had a "real" wedding). It's like we were just a couple living together. Anyway, I strongly believe she's taken all her problems to a new R that doesn't have a solid foundation. She, like many people, thinks you can't work on problems and that our behaviors are fixed in place, and the only solution is to find the magic person that makes it all ok. The Hollywood romance.

Time will tell.

I see no viable options for me staying here in the long term, but don't really see going "home" wherever that is. But, that's still ahead and I'm not looking beyond today right now.

There's a FB message waiting for me. Just can't bother to click it yet and see if it's from W and what she might want if it is. I'm in a mellow mood (probably because I overslept, and am still not on the right sleep schedule. It's hard when you sometimes have to work nights but are still expected to work days. The joy of beinf on salary).

Funny thing about being a night owl. No matter how bad things are, when the world goes to sleep around me, that's when I feel safe and at peace. It's my special time, when nobody can hurt me.

Anyhoo... G'night all youd day shift DBers. ;-)

Well, I looked at the FB message. It was something nice, and personal, related to our 17 yo cat that passed away last year (more annoying childless couple pet stuff, I know). She said she planned to give me a copy of the journal she was putting together with memories about him. It was something she started when he died.

I said thank you.

Now, if I could just get myself off to bed.

Sorry to hear you got served DMR, that's rough. But YOU know -- being served with papers is not the end. Being in court is not the end. Even receiving a final divorce is not the end.

"Now I'm in back in a bout of deep heartache - thinking of OM and her again. If she had just wanted time apart and all that, I would be on board with that and able to focus more on the changes I need to make.

I'm still sticking to DBing up to and for some time after a D. We've been here before. Not sure if that makes the odds any better, the same, or much worse. Probably depends entirely on R with OM, just like last time. I know how strongly W feels our M wasn't real (a token, a M of convenience, etc. because we never had a "real" wedding). It's like we were just a couple living together. Anyway, I strongly believe she's taken all her problems to a new R that doesn't have a solid foundation. She, like many people, thinks you can't work on problems and that our behaviors are fixed in place, and the only solution is to find the magic person that makes it all ok. The Hollywood romance."

Believing you did not have a "real marriage" because you did not have a "real wedding" is such MLC barfy magical thinking. It sounds as if she is pretty confused, and looking for excuses to come by and see you.

Are you SURE that she is still with The Contractor though? Has she told you that?

I work one night each week as an ER nurse, and every day in my law office. So one day each week I'm up for 36 or so hours. It's rough isn't it? I can't sleep during the day, and don't sleep too well at night either.

Thanks Linda. I'm still up and running on a 5 Hour Energy shot. LOL. I'm a bit loopy from lack of sleep, but I decided to stay up at all costs, to get back on a sleep-at-night schedule. Today is mostly meetings anyway. I'm in one now (the joy of telecommuting).

She stopped mentioning him to me a while back when I told her how much it hurt me. As an aside - she described him as "doesn't know how to be angry" and "the kindest person I've ever met." Yawn. Sounds like the boring drip I found him to be... LOL.

So, I have no idea. I do get some kind of vibe that it might not be all she hoped. I can't give specifics... it's just a feeling and stuff like the timing of her messages and visits and stuff - just doesn't seem to leave a lot of time for the romance of the century.

W messaged me again this morning - weird thing is, she was clearly up all night too. Read my message at 3 am, and was active at 4 am, then messaged me again at 8 asking about scanning photos of our dear departed cat who died last year so I can have a copy, and also about a schedule for time with our current kitty (one of them, she hates the other one, LOL). I *know*, us childless couples are annoying with our pets. :-/

So, although I may read too much into little interactions, the friendly contact has been good and she does seem to find a reason to contact quite frequently.

Ugh. Just have to journal away a couple demons here....

I had to have a nap, so I didn't make it thru the night again, dang it.

I woke up with a couple thoughts going thru my head over and over. It's so obvious in hindsight from the moment I started having *that* feeling again, and from when I first asked W why it was taking her so long to get home at night, that she was testing me and trying to make a decision. And the last straw was the day before her birthday. But the game was rigged. One of the biggest reasons I was having such a hard time is that I *knew* there was something going on. It kills me that I can't say anything to her about this.

The other thought was just how, since she's not thinking she has to make any changes, and how she's set the bar so high her belief that "he doesn't know how to get angry" that the slightest irritation from him about anything towards her is going to be judged pretty severely by her.

The curse of the fixer mentality. Maybe having put these thoughts in writing here, I can try to forget them again and get back to more productive thinking.

Damn you Hollywood. I actually watched "Crazy, Stupid Love" because it was on HBO and it was late and I wasn't sleeping... yeah, that was it. ;-) Don't want to give spoilers, but there is marriage, separation, infidelity, etc. and of course a dramatic moment/speech where just the right thing is said.... the result was more subtle than usual for a romantic comedy, though. Anyway, it was a surprisingly good movie.

A while back, when discussing my sitch with my mom (but not in such detail as to encourage resentment of W) she said "maybe she wants you to fight for her."

I sent her a couple of MWD's vids on YouTube, and she said "I get it."

It's so hard to compete by not competing. Giving space and time and all of that.

The best thing I can do right now, both for my PMA, GAL, and to look less like a reclusive loser is to get a darn car. Of course, by the time today's back to back meetings are over, I'll just barely have time to get some provisions to last for the next day or so. I need to be able to take an entire day to get into town and get stuff done. Every weekend, like clockwork, there's been something that's left me too exhausted, physically or mentally to get it done.

"As an aside - she described him as "doesn't know how to be angry" and "the kindest person I've ever met." Yawn. Sounds like the boring drip I found him to be... LOL."

You do understand that what she found attractive in him is what you should have been doing for her. In your case, I wouldn't dismiss what she says about the OM all the time.

DMR "As an aside - she described him as "doesn't know how to be angry" and "the kindest person I've ever met." Yawn. Sounds like the boring drip I found him to be... LOL."

Bond "You do understand that what she found attractive in him is what you should have been doing for her. In your case, I wouldn't dismiss what she says about the OM all the time."

Ouch. My H's OW is a pushy, nasty, aggressive bitch. But fun. His words.�

H says I am the nicest woman he knows, and �that I deserve someone better. I have been following my DB coach's instructions to give him space but to be Lovely Wife when HE approaches me. Following your instructions to DMR, Bond, are you saying that in my sitch, I should be more pushy, mean, fun and aggressive???

Making time for your life is an important step in the practice of making time for everything that's gone wrong in the past.

Like making changes, you MUST make the time, each opportunity missed is a opportunity at progress. Even when we don't feel like it, or feel like it has anything to do with our sitch's, there is still an opportunity to show ourselves we can proceed when the chips are against us.

i'm feeling the same way lately, tired, fatigued, or over-whelmed, but that's exactly WHY we must do it. Even if its as trivial as grocery shopping, its not gonna beat us, we are commited to what we have to do, even the smallest of baby steps.

I do get that she's pointing out something I need to work on, and that's been the primary thing, besides depression and physical pain, that I'm trying to change, with IC, meditation, thought-stopping, etc.

It's hard to do when Imhave so few actual interactions with people, but I try. and just because this place gives us an outlet doesn't mean that every utterance has to be scrutinized to prove that I haven't learned my lesson(s). Many of us on her find it theraputic to joke about the OP, despite the excruciating pain of an A.

I do have a pretty big hurdle to get past. It's very hard to buy a car when you live out in the sticks and have to take a $20 cab ride to anywhere. A very demanding work shedule, and a very bad case of insomnea. But, I'm doing the best I can with what I have, even when it just means meditating, exercising, reading and walking.

Thanks for the inputs. Bond, tough as always. Linda, funny and compassionate. Thumpered, energetic and positive. It's all good.

All appreciated. I really need the community here. It's a good part of my social interaction at the moment.

I pondered that birthday present. I thought about putting it on the counter where I was putting mail and stuff for W to pick up when she stopped by, but figured that would just be worse if she ignored it. It's clearly a statement for her, refusing to take the card and gift, especially as she left on her birthday.

So, it made it all the way to the nightstand in the bedroom. Ah, well. :-/

Linda,

"Ouch. My H's OW is a pushy, nasty, aggressive bitch. But fun. His words.
H says I am the nicest woman he knows, and that I deserve someone better. I have been following my DB coach's instructions to give him space but to be Lovely Wife when HE approaches me. Following your instructions to DMR, Bond, are you saying that in my sitch, I should be more pushy, mean, fun and aggressive???"

No. You have to learn to stop taking what your WAS says literally and understand what the unsaid message. He said that you were 'nice' and that the OW was 'aggressive'. So in the past maybe he thought things were too comfortable. Did the two of you ever do anything wild like when you were dating?

Also, he said that she was 'fun'. So maybe he felt that both of you were missing that unknown fun element you both had when you first went out with each other.

When the WAS says something, you can always learn from it.

Likewise, dmr's W said that the OM was 'kind' and 'didn't know how to be angry.' In the past, dmr admitted that he had an anger problem. So his W's comment solidifies the idea that she REALLY didn't like him being angry and didn't like having to deal with all the conflict. She just wanted peace.

dmr can continue to think the guy was a 'drip' but if he doesn't control his anger issues, then his W isn't coming back.

Just my 2 cents.

That can also lead to a lot of mind reading, so, as always, you have to be very careful.

In your case it's not mind reading.

You wrote this in the very beginning of your new posts here.
"I directed my frustrations into a lot of anger, instead of finding healthy ways to deal with them."

DMR - I think putting the birthday gift out is too pushy. I'm glad it found its way to the night stand

But I know how much giving your spouse a gift and them not even bothering to open it hurts. Mine has done that to me too.

Bond -- thanks. No, not much wildness or fun in our lives lately. My H has been horribly sick with lymes disease and other debilitating illnesses for the past 7 years, and in MLC for the past 4. So we have done some fun things together, but not wild fun. We used to do some sports, like skating and skiing and hiking, but he physically can not any longer. I miss the fun element and keep finding entertaining things for us to do. Like an Eagles Tribute Band concert - he loves the Eagles, and how fun would that be! He always says no. So my 180 is to go on and do the enjoyable thing without him. His loss.

My H is going Russia in Sept to be with his Tramp for a month. So he'll have plenty of fun and new experiences. Hard to compete with that

Wasn't referring to me in that case. Of course, that's not even the only issue with us. You can't really know what a MLCer/WAS is *really* thinking. Of course you have to try. But it really is a guessing game. When they touch on something you know to be something you need to work on, sure, that's a good start. But, my W also spewed a ton of stuff during her angry phase that was total projecting, as the Freudian shrinks like to say. It was attitudes and behaviors of hers that she was completely redirecting onto me.

Linda - Yep. It hurts. She has no problem asking for financial help, but that gift is poison! :-/ She did ask if she could bring me anything on Saturday when she comes to get the kitty (I've already let kitty know it's perfectly ok to bite the OM if he's ever around. Hopefully he is allergic and hates cats). She also said she's going to dinner with [friend] from previous job and she'd come by after that. That's the first time she's ever mentioned where/when/with who she's doing something. Could mean nothing. Could even be a lie. There's that mind reading in the bad way. Because I know I should be in that mythical state of detachment. It's a struggle.

Another thing is, once my W latched onto the idea that everything in our marriage was due to me being angry (not even close, and totally ignores all the problems she brings to it, but we can expect that from a WAS/MLCer), *everything* became a sign of anger. She ranted and raved in email/FB message/text, but if I defended myself in the slightest, she'd say "there you go again being angry." She, by the way, has a pretty viscous temper, has always been very argumentative and is every bit as stubborn as me.

So.... take it *all* with a grain of salt. If it's true to you, work on it. If it's BS, let it go. Because... need I say it...
"don't believe anything they say and only half of what you see.

DMR,
I've read through the thread, and I wanted to thank you for sharing everything you have. Your strength throughout this has been inspiring.

Thanks

You're Welcome, KindaHappy. I generally don't have problems sharing. Usually share too much! Of course, here, that's ok. :-)

Got my username changed. Left DMR as sig because it's a needle in a haystack on google. I'll be keeping an eye out though. :-/

Someone pointed out that Google customized searches. It does, and if you're logged into any Google service (gmail, Google+) that makes a difference, too.

Funny thing is, I wasn't using Google but was using DuckDuckGo (a stupid name, but they don't collect user data, so they're my search engine of choice these days).

But, as has also been pointed out, it's not a good idea to use an ID and/or display name you have use somewhere else. Back when I created mine here, I think it was the first, then I forgot about it and started using it elsewhere, especially when all the social media stuff started.

Oddly, searching my old username on Google didn't bring up any results from here (at least as far as I felt like scrolling).

Anyway, enough computer talk and paranoia for one day. :-)

So, Saturday, after W goes to dinner with a friend of ours (a former co-worker of hers, but a friend of both of us), she's coming to pick up the cat. You never know how it's going to go with friends. I just hope she (the friend) doesn't go full-on "you need to do what's right for yourself" mode. If I was a praying person, I'd throw one in there for her to toss in a kind word for me somewhere in the conversation. :-/

It's going to be a sad day, because I'll miss the little critter, but she's been missing him already. Last time we were in this spot, our previous cat was our avenue of communication. We're supposed to be alternating time with him, so that'll be interesting. Our communications continue to be friendly and brief, and to the point. She did reply nicely to my update on the cat when I said Saturday is ok, and volunteered to bring me some stuff from the store again. She also thanked me for an update on the car maintenance reports from OnStar. She hasn't asked anything about changing that, or the bank or CC in quite a while.

Not sure if I am going to be here Saturday when she comes. I'm torn. I only get these very brief physical contacts, but I'm having a difficult time with sleeping and work and just don't know if I can put on a good show tomorrow (still the fake it 'til you make it show).

I'm falling back into the mode of wondering if things are going perfectly for her.

I may just give the cat a hug, gather up his carrier and stuff and leave it ready for her. Maybe leave a note that I had to go out and do some stuff (which I do).

I don't know. Thoughts?

OK, need the psychics and mind readers. LOL.

W texted me to say girlfriend couldn't make it for their planned dinner tomorrow, so could she come get cat earlier. Asked if she needs to get anything for him, and asked if I need anything.

I didn't answer for a couple hrs ('cause it was nap time). She texts me again saying "If you get a chance, watch Juno. It has Ellen Page"

Remember what I said about her stopping drinking diet Coke, which for her is the equivalent of a crack addiction? Now she wants me to watch a romantic comedy about a pregnant girl?! Ahhhh!

OK, calm... breathing... she does know I like Ellen Page a lot. I'll check it out. Of course the other day I posted on FB how I'd watched "Crazy, Stupid, Love" and I'm sure she saw that and I'm sure she knows I wanted her to see that.

Anyway, that's the first time she's contacted me about something not related to money, picking up stuff from house, or the cat.

Hopefully she didn't text me on accident instead of OM. ;-)

Make yourself exercise for a solid hour....make yourself sweat and breathe hard. Walk, Walk/Run, Run any will do but get outside and exercise with music. That does wonders for taking your mind off of things and disconnecting and clearing out your emotions. I get cluttered if I miss a day and have to get back out there again.

Thanks, confluences. It's easy to fall off the wagon. It's almost midnight, but I'm going to do my exercises and meditation. Bit dark to get out, but tomorrow, for sure, I'm going into town to get my haircut, get some groceries, and treat myself to a nice meal out.

I watched Juno. Outside of the pregnancy topic, it was a beautiful story. And makes me like Ellen Page even more. :-D

I run at 10pm at night sometimes to beat the summer heat. It's like a metaphor getting out there in the darkness because we're all going thru a dark period right now. There is something comforting about being in the darkness and alone with your thoughts and confronting your fears about all the uncertainty head-on and getting through them when your done with the run.

Last week I walked to the store on a dark, moonless night. A couple of kids riding double on a bike almost hit me, swerved to the shoulder and crashed. Let's be careful out there!

I know what you mean, though. My thoughts are clearest when my feet are moving.

If it isn't too late, I would not be there when she arrives. Let her wonder what you are doing.

Also, it seems to me that you are sharing the cat when you should be sharing the car. Why not tell her that you are unable to do many of things you need to do, like finding a car, when you don't have one. Let her know that you would like to set up a couple of times a week to be able to use it until you find a new one. That is a very reasonable request and there is no reason she shouldn't be willing to do it.

It is. Turns out I was glad I hung around. I was in complete control. Calm, cool, and collected.

She plopped down on the couch and seemed to really want to just hang out for a bit. We watched the tube kind of mindlessly, nattered about the kitties. Nothing serious. Looks even skinnier than before, and still seems pretty stressed.

Got some updates on the kitty last night and this morning.

You're right about the car, and it's something I've pondered. If I'd get off my duff (figuratively) and get serious on my car search....

That's good that you had an interaction that lead to a quality interaction. It's weird how your instincts will result in a good decision, which is not always the case but I am glad it worked-out better then you had anticipated. You just got to take what you can get right now and not push any R talk. Hang in there.

Hmmmm, DMR, sounds like your DBing is paying off. Just hanging around nattering is a good beginning to a new R in my mind. Better than her coming in just to steal curtains and stuff, right?

Carry on my friend, you're doing great !

Yep. The squirrels are very easy to spook (my current favorite analogy). ;-) Have to watch the situation out of the corner of the eye, use all the senses, and be attuned to very subtle signals. Which, as we all know is exhausting!

Getting updates on the cat pretty regularly. Last time we went through this, our previous cat was the key to staying connected. I had a friend, who passed away shortly after we reconciled the last time, who was instrumental in helping me get through the depression. He was one of those people who seemed to have it all together with a perfect life, but who struggled with depression. He perceived what I was going through and convinced me to seek help for it. He also seemed to be a natural DBer. Even when I insisted the situation was dire, he encouraged me to take it slow, and said that maybe our cat would be the means to keep in touch and keep communication open. RIP, friend. :'(

Just drifting along, trying to keep going the same direction, if not closer, and hopefully not farther apart. (OK, now I've slipped back to my floating down a river analogy.)

Got a FB msg from W (along with daily kitty update) asking if I want her to pick me up Fri so I can go to the mall and get out of the house while she goes to dinner with [friend from old job]. They were supposed to go last week, but it got cancelled so that's when she came over and picked up the cat.

I told her it would be great and I can keep an eye out for any cars for sale (sometimes the dealerships have cars in the mall, but this mall is kind of tiny).

This will be the most time spent together since we went to dinner together right after she departed for the new house. Glad I got that extra practice last Sat being composed and cool around her.

And then....

"we can go to a movie too afterwards if u want. Pls know I need u as a friend right now if that's ok. Nothing has changed but I like spending time with you."

Must proceed with caution. I know what I need to do is be that friend, and not overreact.

Moving to Just Friends.....

Been a great week for positive changes. I need to keep up the momentum and get back to the IC, or find another one. Still not sure she's got a plan, other than aimlessly discussing my childhood.

Need to ramp up my outside work in the yard, around the house, etc. now that it's cooled off. And more exercise!

Thanks Linda. Didn't notice your reply here until today. Yep. I've started a new post now that W has told me she needs me as a friend and has asked me to do some stuff together. Figured I'd get away from this pathetic sounding title to something more positive. :-)

Just catching up on your sitch DMR, it's still hard for me to read. This is pretty amazing, and I am so pleasantly surprised:

"Got a FB msg from W (along with daily kitty update) asking if I want her to pick me up Fri so I can go to the mall and get out of the house while she goes to dinner with [friend from old job]. They were supposed to go last week, but it got cancelled so that's when she came over and picked up the cat.

"we can go to a movie too afterwards if u want. Pls know I need u as a friend right now if that's ok. Nothing has changed but I like spending time with you."

I'd say a great deal has changed. She is starting to miss you and remembers that she likes spending time with you! You are not arch enemy #1 anymore! That is a BIG step in this journey of baby steps. You are doing great, keep it up!

Thanks! You can follow the saga over on my new post Just Friends is OK For Now.

Hope your eye gets better soon.