ILYBINILWY too

[Crazyville]

Well my other thread locked. No surprise, it was way overdue.

I hesitated in starting a new thread because I really don't have a purpose other than keeping in touch with some great people I've gotten to know, and to journal some thoughts along the way. I guess if it helps someone else in the process, then that's just a bonus.

As I was typing in the title, I had a curious thought and so put a little twist to it. I realize that short of salvaging my M and making it something wonderful and fulfilling for both of us, my second greatest fantasy would be for us to reach a point where we both realize we are simply incompatible, and that the best thing we could do for each other is to let the other one go.

I did that years ago with a guy I dated. He was just a little older than me, but he had gotten his GF pregnant in H.S. and married her, had another child, then eventually D'd. The problem for us was that he was done having/raising kids and I hadn't even started. We both really liked each other, but both realized it wasn't fair to the other to expect them to compromise something so significant. So we mutually broke up but remained friends long after, caring for the other still and wishing the best for them. I even ran into him a couple years ago and it was a wonderful reunion. He graciously met my H who was with me at the time, and spoke fondly of his W that wasn't present. It was so comfortable, and I can honestly say that I still care for him and I'm very happy for his relationship with his W.

The thing is, it never even occurred to me to ask him to compromise his choice. He could have accomplished it, easily. He was in his early 30's, healthy, gainfully employed, responsible, etc. I guess that's what happens sometimes when you become a teenage parent - you grow up fast. But I never felt I had any right to even ask that of him. It was his life, his choice. My "negotiating" it with him under the parameters of "our R" would have just been wrong.

I don't believe that anyone has the right to expect someone else to serve them, and the problem is amplified when it's expected without reciprocation. I guess I don't understand a sense of entitlement. I wouldn't expect to be paid without working. I wouldn't expect to have something without paying for it. I don't think being in a R "entitles" you to anything, not even a M R. If your partner doesn't offer something freely when asked, then it's not yours to have.

I can see how this attitude played out in our M. I asked H to garden with me; he declined so I did it alone or with GF's. I asked him to go on a float trip with me, for years; he finally agreed but then cancelled at the last minute. I asked him to consider that the act of sex needs to be satisfying for me too and gave him suggestions for what he could do; he forgot repeatedly and left me wanting. In these and more, I asked but he opted out. Do I have a right to be angry and demand that he do what I ask, because we're M'd? I didn't think so. I already asked, he declined. Instead, I just accepted his position, disappointed but not argumentative or demanding. I didn't give up my interests, I just did them without him. I pulled away, because he wasn't offering me anything to stay for. At the same time, I gradually stopped doing his things with/for him. He doesn't seem to hold the same position. He often tells me that I need to do something for/with him "because I'm his W," regardless of the fact that he's not even reciprocal.

When I got M'd, the vows were mine, the responsibility was mine, the words I spoke were promises of what *I* was committing to. Sure, H spoke similar vows, but the only one that can deliver what he promised is him. If he chooses not to, what right do I have to demand different? Even God allows for free will. It's his choice to live in this R the way he does, and I can't do anything to make him do different. I *can* choose to not be part of it. But to criticize? Condemn? Demand? I don't even see the point. Should I even want a partner that's only there because I coerced/argued/nagged/threatened him into doing it?

When would "because you're my H" ever be a legitimate reason for demanding something from him?

[lostinscared]

It's an interesting discussion, CV. I agree... in part.

Do we have the right to demand anything of anyone? No. And there are certain boundaries that are hard stops. I loved a man who also wanted children but I know that I would not be able to do that for him. Did I have the right to ask him to compromise his dreams? Especially ones that big? No. It hurt like hell to watch him go. But there are certain incompatibilities that probably should not be resolved as they will bring resentment later on. And truthfully, he is happier now and that makes me very happy to see him happy and pursuing his dreams.

HOWEVER, there is compromise. And that is a bit different than demanding. It's very nice that you were able to carry on with your activities without your H... You did the right thing. His unwillingness to compromise, however, clearly caused a wedge. Gardening with someone or going on a float trip with someone is very very different than giving up on one's dream to have children or demanding of another who does not want children to have them. If each person in a marriage is engaged in separate activities, then where exactly is the bonding? So while it is right that one cannot demand of another to bend to their will, you are still left with a R that does not work. Each person has simply gone to their own corner.

I have sat here and thought long and hard about your second to last sentence. Where's the line? I mean when is it coercion and when is it simply dialogue about our needs? I mean I'm not sure it is simply enough to say, "Hey I want you to garden with me," and let it go after they say no. Especially after the answer is always no when it comes to our own interests. There needs to be more dialogue after that. Now, I agree that you are fairly convinced you have had that dialogue and with no success. But many of us, me included, never really had that dialogue. I would ask and let it go without any further dialogue.

It will ALWAYS get to a point in a R that compromise needs to happen. And that compromise can't happen without some type of meaningful dialogue. I guess the question for me become where's that line between nagging and meaningful dialogue?

[Crazyville]

Oh, I'm not suggesting it makes for a healthy M, this ask/decline/accept/withdraw pattern. In fact, continuously ignoring your spouse's requests is a sure recipe for failure. But I think people understand this dynamic in general or no one would ever get past the first date. The fact that they do shows they're capable of it. So what happens after M?

I've had this sticky on my desktop for a long time now. I think it's perfect for this:

"Arguing is a sign that one or both people in the relationship are unable to grasp the rights, boundaries and feelings of the other person. At least one of you is unfit for a relationship."

If we respect the other person's boundaries, for example their right to say "no" to a request, how can we ever have an argument? How could anything progress to anything even resembling nagging?

At the same time, if someone did something before M, while dating, in order to "catch" their S, why wouldn't they realize they still need to do it to "keep" their S?

For my needs, I asked my H, I asked him clearly, I asked him multiple times. He always had excuses but the bottomline answer was "no." As a result, our M is likely over. I knew it was happening, but I also knew I couldn't save it by myself, and didn't believe I had the right/ability to "make" him meet my needs.

I'm curious, when you asked but then "let it go," did you feel like your M was failing? Or were you simply fine with it?

[lostinscared]

I read something once following Trump's divorce. He said, "I want a marriage that I don't want to work at." I found that funny. Because you hit the nail on the head... when you date, you work. You compromise. You show interest and concern for the other. We get married and we get lazy. Plain and simple. We just get lazy. And it seems to me, that as the resentment builds up, we are willing to compromise less and less. You point out before you were willing to compromise and show interest in your H's activities and less so now. Why? Well, because you don't feel he's compromised, you don't feel you should. The resentment continues to build from there.

I absolutely don't agree with the quote. Hahahahaha. Not much we've disagreed on. But I don't think that's right. When people are arguing, they clearly are still engaged in the other person. Meaning, indifference hasn't taken over yet. I don't think arguing is bad, per se. I think that the way we argue can be bad. My H and I didn't argue much. Why? Well, I was all too willing to just concede. I don't believe arguing is a sign of one's inability to grasp the rights of others. What's the alternative? Not saying anything? Now, your response might be that the two just simply talk about it and not argue about it. But that is kind of semantics to me. When I say my H and I had an argument, rarely are we talking about anyone who has raised their voice. So it's perhaps best to say we had a disagreement. But whatever you call it, these discussions, arguments, disagreements do need to happen at some level, IMHO.

I don't think I felt my M was failing when I let it go. I think it was a symptom of a larger problem, however. I am the perfect co-dependent. Daughter of an alcoholic. Came from an abusive household. Victim of a rape. I came with some pretty large self-esteem issues. It was not always so obvious... in fact, it practically never was unless you got to know me. I was confident at work. I took great pains in dressing and keeping myself taken care of. I spoke my opinion and could never be called "soft spoken." However, I have always felt that I was not good enough. So? What happens. I ask to go to a play. He says no. I realize how stupid it is to ask to go to a play because most people don't. What is wrong with me? I shouldn't want to go to a play. I should be like normal people. Of course he's right not wanting to go to a play. Most guys don't. Then I sit down and watch 18 holes of golf on TV with him trying my best to enjoy it. Not saying it's right. In fact, at this point, I know it's not. But that's MY dysfunction. Not his. Now, when we were dating, it was easier. I didn't need to ask for something more than once. But as we discussed at the beginning, people get lazy. So what SEEMED to work for awhile, didn't once everyone got lazy.

The breakdown happened when I was moved to TN. That was the first time I really asserted myself and my absolute displeasure about the situation. Now listen, I was NOT constructive (understatement of the century). However, it was the first time I really put up a fight. And my H? Well, he had no clue what to do with that because I really never put up a fight on much of anything.

[lostinscared]

I've been sitting here thinking about the arguing thing and boundaries...

As part of a series done by my Historical Society, I saw a series of mock debates about the constitutional and the forming of our new government. What struck me in some of the debates was what people were arguing. I saw people arguing "their" side, what was best for them. And I saw people arguing what was best for the new government. While taxes weren't much of an issue at that time, I can argue passionately that paying taxes is bad and why. And it is bad for me. There's no one that can argue any different. But for the government? Well, while it is bad for me, it is best for the greater good... in this case, the entity of the government. Now my only argument is about how much I have to pay... hahahahha

So... marriage seems to be the same thing for me. While your H can say he doesn't want to garden and it's a bad thing for him to be doing, what is best for the M? Because there are 3 entities now in this equation... you, your H and your M. You may still disagree about what is best for the M, but the conversation and even the argument, still needs to happen. Upon hearing the other's arguments, one might genuinely see things differently and have a change of heart. Or perhaps find a compromise that does meet the needs of the M. It's not only about the individual anymore.

[Crazyville]

For me, the difference is between arguing and discussing, and it has nothing to do with the volume of the exchange. Arguing has to do with defending your position of being "right." Discussing has to do with offering your perspective but being open to hearing another person's, even if you don't ultimately change your position. SS, your example of paying taxes is perfect. If your sole purpose is to make your case, then you're not even open to the reasoning behind taxes. You, then, would simply be arguing. But in order to be able to hear the other side and factor it in to your perspective, a discussion is definitely warranted since no one has yet figured out how to read minds. I have had many, many discussions at work. Few would consider them arguments because we all believe we're on the same team. Arguments happen when you position yourself on opposite "sides," not simply opposite perspectives, and don't even allow for another legitimate perspective besides your own.

I'll at least say that for us, we don't have discussions, we have arguments, even though they're not loud either. And the problem in our sitch reflects the quote above exactly.

CV: Today would be a great day for a float trip.
H: Today would be a great day to go boating.
CV: Yes, it's a great day for both. I'd rather go floating.
H: I'd rather go boating.
CV: Okay, then you go boating and I'll go floating.
H: No, you can't, you need to go boating with me because that's what a family does.
CV: Except that I've already gone boating 5 times with you this summer and haven't gone floating in 6 years.
H: I know, but ..........

[Crazyville]

Sorry, that wasn't directed to SS, but to LIS. My eyes are going bad, I think. (Who am I kidding? I KNOW they are, I just refuse to accept it.)

[Crazyville]

discussion: the examination or consideration of a matter in speech or writing
argument: an address or composition intended to convince or persuade; an oral disagreement; verbal opposition; contention; altercation

BTW, I believe you and I are having a discussion, perhaps even a debate. I would not qualify this as an argument in any way.

[Crazyville]

Which comes back to my original question about demanding that someone honor a request. Is it fair to argue? Discuss, yes. Request, yes. Even offer up a trade/compromise, yes. But argue when the other person has made up their mind? There's clearly a dysfunction in the R when one party won't voluntarily/happily do some things for the other. Arguing will not correct the dysfunction but simply add a few other negative dimensions to it.

[lostinscared]

Well it's an interesting discussion but I think we may be talking semantics at this point. Let's look at your definition again:

argument: an address or composition intended to convince or persuade; an oral disagreement; verbal opposition; contention; altercation

I'm not sure there is much wrong with convincing and persuading. I mean truly a person can see things from a different perspective only if and when they are presented with a different perspective. Now, you can call that a discussion... but it could also be an argument. We go back to what happened at the continental congresses and many men argued their point vehemently and truly came up with a framing of a government that is amazingly functional and smart (lol, I know many would disagree). I think it is in the way we argue and the mind frame in which we enter these "arguments."

It's hard to have these discussions, though, when speaking globally. The devil is in the details. So if we were to go back to your examples... your H wants you to have sex with him and not give you anything in return. Well that's not an argument. That's someone who is entering an argument with a bad frame of mind. And that's different. There is no exchange of ideas there. I have had these arguments before with people. Damn, people have had them with me. But if someone won't at least consider your point of view, then you are at end game. Now I hear you saying that is how you define an argument... when someone enters it and does not consider the other's point of view. But I don't see it the same way. Why? Well the lens by which I see through prevents me from seeing that way. My H and I have had arguments and we both ended up at some sort of compromise in the end. Some of those arguments were productive. It sounds to me that you don't find any productivity in your arguments. Does that mean the act of arguing is bad or does it mean that the frame of mind being brought into the argument is bad? And again, I'm aware that we are probably talking about semantics here...

LOL. You can call it an argument or you can call it a discussion... either way... I LIKE IT

[Crazyville]

Then, yes, I agree that it has to do with the frame of mind. What I pulled from the definitions are "examination or consideration" for a discussion vs. "disagreement, opposition, contention, and altercation" for an argument. I believe they represent a different attitude coming into the exchange.

In my example of the boating/floating argument, I don't believe my H ever took my interests into consideration at all. Whatever I said, he immediately contested/overrode it, not even acknowledging it. It's almost like I'm not even there. I certainly don't feel human, rather just like a "thing" that's supposed to submit to his bidding. And the fact that he could go 6 years without going floating with me once, yet still expect me to go boating with him again exacerbates that feeling.

It's curious that you find this enjoyable. My H wouldn't have made it through reading my first post, much less ever responded to it. So I appreciate it, too! At least it's a little off the beaten track of what my mind usually chews on.

So I'm still curious to the end result. What is the line between asking/discussing and nagging? I tend to check out pretty easily, because of my reasoning in my earlier post. If a person says no, I believe they're entitled to that decision. Obviously, H doesn't feel that way. And you seem to have a least a somewhat different perspective. What am I missing? What logic says that we as an individual have a right to argue someone else into doing something for us, when they've stated they don't want to? The continental congress sitch is a different animal in my book; those people were defining laws for an entire country. I'm considering it on a one-to-one level, like going floating or boating. What gives my H the right/reasoning to say "no," that I can't just go floating without him, and I need to go boating with him. Again. And I don't just mean because he's selfish. I mean, when does another person become a "thing" to do your bidding, even against their own choice? Where's the line between this and stealing? Or rape? (Sorry.) A person should be able to say no without contest. My H has argued me to the point where I just give in, because I just don't have it in me to fight about it anymore. At what level is that okay?

[scaredsilly]

Then don't fight about it. I think you're perfectly within you rights to tell him, "no. If you won't float with me, I won't boat with you." End of discussion. Walk away. Don't respond to any more arguments for his choice.

Have you tried that?

[lostinscared]

Well, CV, I think the answer to your final question is both simple and complicated. Guess that makes it complicated in the end... hahahahaha.

Again, there are 3 entities here... you, your H and your M. You must preserve individual rights, but always also protect the "greater good," which would be the marriage. I just don't see how going floating with you is trampling on your H's individual rights. If, say, he would be in pain or had some fear towards it, then I would say it's best he protects his individual rights. But if he's just saying no just because he doesn't feel like it, then we have a case where he's ignoring the needs of the M... I'm not sure you are pushing your will necessarily by wanting to go floating... like you said, if it were simply about your will, you'd go yourself. But I think you have a mind towards the entity of M when you ask him to join you and the need of the M to have bonding time. When the answer is ALWAYS no about what you want to do, well, now we are back to trampling on one's individual rights. In this case, yours.

See, I don't blame you. In fact, I agree with you. I just think sometimes these things do need to be argued. Certainly more than I ever did. I can't sit here and say he never did what I wanted because I know while that is true, I did nothing to point that out to him. I did nothing to explain the importance. And by not doing that, I didn't have a mind towards the M either. It was all about me and my hurt feelings and fear of further rejection. At no point, until now, was I thinking well I need to talk with him further about this because this is seriously affecting the M. I never gave him a fair shot or the M because I was too busy being hurt.

[lostinscared]

You know what's interesting? This narcissism thing we talk about with our H's. With me? I've realized something... my self-esteem issues were just the other side of the same coin. I was as equally occupied with myself as my H was with himself. A narcissist is busy protecting his ego. Isn't someone with a poor self-esteem doing the same thing? I did nothing to protect the M. Again, I was too busy protecting my ego.

[~ kd ~]

It all still boils down to intention.

I don't see anything CV's H has done or said as being intentionally hurtful to CV. CV is feeling hurt by it, yes. But it is not intentional. Her H is a "flower child" bouncing around from thing to thing, living life as it pleases him (not as it serves him, but as it pleases him).

OTOH, it still appears that CV continues to intentionally withhold. Knowing that it hurts her H. If he won't *something* then she won't *something else*.

The intentions still appear quite polar, regardless of "reasons".

[lostinscared]

It is an interesting take KD. Not sure I see the same. I see a man whose intentions are to do what he pleases (and as it serves him) without regard to who it hurts (and he's been told repeatedly). I see CV's intentions as protecting herself. You read retaliatory... I read protecting. Retaliatory measures always escalate. This hasn't escalated. This is homeostasis.

My H wants to reconcile. He calls constantly. He's apologetic and kind. But he's not agreed to stop drinking. One could say that I'm withholding because I've not gone back. However, I am protecting myself.

CV is deeply hurt. To continue to cater to her H's needs with no regard to having her own met simply opens up for more hurt. What she's engaging in is a form of detachment.

[Crazyville]

Yes, I have walked away, and then he'll bring it up again later, and try again to get me to give in (assuming there's still time beforehand,) using every trick in the book. And then if I stick to my boundary, he'll bring it up afterwards in other discussions and tell me how unGodly I am, how I'm not a good wife, how us doing things separately is not what he had in mind when he got M'd, that if this is all I'm offering, then we might as well get D'd. To which I tell him, "Go ahead, D me." Then he says he'll never leave me, that he wants to work on things, that he'll go on a float trip with me (it's February!) that he'll do anything I ask because he wants to make things better. Unless I ask him to clean his pitted-out office, or to pay a bill on time, or to attend a meeting for S12 for school because I have class that night and can't. When he doesn't, he has a hundred excuses why, apologizes and promises to do better, has no understanding of my resulting anger, tells me I'm unforgiving and a perfectionist, too demanding with unreasonable expectations.

Currently, I'm not speaking to him at all. I'm avoiding him, going down to my office if he's on the main floor, etc., while he's acting like everything is fine. After about 5 days of this, I'll get sick of his ignoring the elephant in the room, and I'll lose patience with always having to walk away from what I was doing in order to avoid him, and tell him to leave me alone. He'll immediately pick up with the promises again, telling me how much he misses me, claiming how much he wants to make things work, arguing that we can't make it work if we don't communicate (which is true.) And he'll suck me back in to the endless circle discussion, which results in me throwing out some token request, which he'll manage to do this time, because it's a only token afterall, and because he's focused on getting something he wants in return, a token like watching a movie with me, of which he'll watch the first five minutes then fall asleep and think it still counts, and if I don't then I'm ungrateful. And then because he's fulfilled the token request in his mind, everything should be Norman Rockwell wonderful and the cycle starts all over again from the beginning.

If either of us want to reconcile this, communication is necessary. But our communication is dysfunctional at best, damaging at minimum.

God! I really hate that I can see this sooo clearly! I really hate that I can see my part in it and can't seem to break the cycle. I spend so much time thinking about the job I want when S12 goes off to college, one where I travel a lot and it gets me out of the house and away from him. I just can't see a way to do that now without giving up my time with S12. I just can't see how to break the cycle!

I wish I could understand what makes one person think another person is only there for their benefit?

[Crazyville]

I can't sit here and say he never did what I wanted because I know while that is true, I did nothing to point that out to him. I did nothing to explain the importance. And by not doing that, I didn't have a mind towards the M either. It was all about me and my hurt feelings and fear of further rejection.

See, I'm going to call B.S. on this. This isn't a R with another un-invested person or stranger. This is a R with someone that promised to love and cherish you forever. I would feel differently if you actually asked him to sit and watch 18 holes of golf with you, because then you've communicated your interest being that. But you asked about a play.

He has a responsibility to KNOW if he's pleasing you, to learn, to watch, to understand, and if he doesn't, to ask. Think of it when someone has a baby or adopts a dog. Neither of those other beings even have the ability to communicate their needs effectively. The parent seeks it out, they watch and listen. Is the baby crying? That's an obvious one. Is it eating well? Sleeping regularly? Active or lethargic? Skin rashes or dryness, hot to the touch? The dog owner does the same: is the dog eating? Chewing itself? Wagging it's tail or sulking in the corner? Balding in spots? Wheezing?

Everyone knows how to do it before they get M'd. It shouldn't become your responsibility to drag it out of him just because your S gets lazy. Fine, if they prefer to be lazy, then they have to know the likely consequences: D or A. Just like having a job. Get lazy on the job and you're not likely to have the job for long either.

[Crazyville]

KD, then I suspect you would also say that LIS's H is not "intentionally hurting her" with his alcoholism and drinking and his PA. That, yes, she is feeling hurt by it, but it's not intentional. He's just being a "flower child" living life as it pleases him.

I'm just not sure of your point, in either case? Or your suggestion in either case either.

[scaredsilly]

I know I can't continue forever giving to someone who doesn't give back.

Your marriage may just be beyond fixing.

A marriage should be mutually satisfying.

He just doesn't get it.

[lostinscared]

CV, let me ask you a question... Ignoring him and not talking to him... what does that do for you? Does it make you feel better? It seems to me that it takes too much effort and if it's a part of the same cycle, then at least that's something you can break. You said that it doesn't change anything. He still acts like everything is fine. So all I see that doing is causing more strife.... I don't live in your house nor do I live in your body so I truly am asking you what it is doing for you.

As far as your comment to me and calling BS (lol), I have thought long and hard about that. In part, I do understand what you are saying to me. He used to put more effort in than he does now. But isn't that every marriage? My communication skills were poor. I do need to take responsibility for that. Now I'm not saying he doesn't have things he needs to take responsibility for but I can't make him do that. All I can do is understand what I have done. And by not communicating my own needs, by constantly catering to what he wanted (because of my clearly codependent tendencies), I have subconsciously communicated to him over and over again that some of his behaviors are ok. I never had many boundaries and if I did, I never really enforced them. That is the dynamic he is used to from me. Who is at fault there? Me. I created that. Did he help? Sure. But at the end of the day, I could have changed it at any time and I didn't until it got very bad.

[Crazyville]

Yes, it does make me feel better. It lets me get away from the crazy-making. I don't feel so "used." It makes me feel like I'm not powerless and I do have some control, that I don't have to just sit there and deal with whatever he dishes out or demands of me. I don't have to listen to him jabber on about his day, as if I care, when I couldn't give a flying flip. I'm also able to be productive toward my own interests, and my day doesn't have to be "all about him." It is awkward, it is weird. I love the days when he's at work. But until S12 is off and I can get a traveling job, it's the best I can get right now.

He used to put more effort in than he does now. But isn't that every marriage?

Certainly it's the failed M's, anyway. There's also a difference between "he used to sweep you off your feet" and "he doesn't even meet your basic needs." There is something in-between. He doesn't have to be everything he was when you were dating; few are able to accomplish that. But he doesn't get to stop "caring."

I've never been very good at justifying something because "everybody else does it." There's some definitive rights and wrongs that don't change just because it's popular or not. I get that you believe/recognize your contribution to the problem. It may be that you could have turned the tides rather easily by just stepping up a bit. I don't know, but personally I doubt it. Your H doesn't seem very responsive to your requests now, and you've been pretty loud and clear, I'm thinking. Certainly he can't miss the fact that you've left. Yet other than lip-service, has he reacted? I don't think so.

I'm sure part of my discussion on this is fueled by my own sitch. I can relate to much of what you're saying, about co-dependency, not speaking up, not enforcing boundaries well. My issue with this, though, is I don't like the person I've had to become in order to accomplish communicating my needs to H. I don't like to have to issue ultimatums, threats, tit-for-tats, punishments, repeat myself 100 times, whatever, just in order to get his attention. Because I can't just say, "H would you please do X for me? It's very important to me and I'd really appreciate it," and actually have him respond. I don't like the "me" I have to be to get my needs met by him. I simply meet them myself and then I still like me. The only problem is them I'm not left with any reason to like him.

[Crazyville]

I've been chewing on some new information since yesterday because I just can't get a handle on my feelings about it. Thankfully this medium only presents you with the final draft, because this is probably going to take me 3 hours to type out.

Our current not-speaking arrangement started Thursday night, after H walked out of another discussion. This is not uncommon. He just decides he's done and leaves. I stopped him and told him how hurtful and inconsiderate that felt whenever he did that, and he came back and stood over me yelling and pointing his finger in my face. Obviously, that didn't help.

Our discussion was about his ADD diagnosis. I told him I knew I was no expert, but that people were telling me the someone can be diagnosed with ADD in one or two visits. I asked about his claim that they were "still considering it," after 4 months of visits. I pointed him to a number of things I had read online, testimonials by people that spoke of how devastating the problem can be in M, some from people that had ADD and could only see the damage after they were treated. H said that he could have written some of them himself. I don't even know what set him off, why he got up and left, angry. (crazy-making)

The next day, he emailed his counselor, stating that he believed he had it and asked what they needed to do to get a definitive diagnosis. He also contacted his GP and got off the Wellbutrin and onto Adderal, because we talked about it being for depression, not ADD. Then he started reading an ADD book that a counselor from 10 years ago gave him to read, advising him then that he should consider getting tested for ADD, but he never did. He never even read the book.

So between Friday night and Saturday, he read the whole book. He sent me an email with an apology, stating that the book fits him to a "T", that he regrets waiting this long to read it or check into it and apologized for the damage he caused our R. He also said that the counselor got back to him and pointed him to an online ADD test, that he should take that and then they would evaluate on his next visit. H took it and it indicated that he "likely" has ADD. H says he feels like he has hope, feels different, that perhaps it's the prescription.

So, I should be happy, right? I should have hope, too, right? But I don't.

See, he had this same exact reaction (minus the drugs) when he read the book on boundaries in M. It "fit him to a T," he was "so sorry," he knew what the problem was and was "going to address it." He had the same reaction when he read the book on narcissism, and the one on co-dependency. It's always the same.

It's heartbreaking, two-fold. First, I believe he genuinely sees the damage he has done, and he's sorry for it, so I feel bad for him. But then he "gets over it" and goes right back to his previous behaviors, and for me hope is shattered yet again.

The problem for me now is that I don't feel any hope this time. Nothing about this is translating to envisioning a happy future with him. I'm happy FOR him. I'm glad that he'll be able to address some of his behaviors, because they're detrimental to him whether he realizes it or not. I imagine he'll make a great H for his third W. I just don't see this as being the solution to OUR M. I don't think there is one. I feel a wall around my heart. It's the same gripping hold as when I stand near a tall ledge. It's not really fear, because I don't plan to jump, and I'm not afraid I will do so accidentally. It's just a solid heart-felt understanding that getting close to the edge (or to H) is a very bad idea, and I have absolutely no desire to do so. No more so than bungee jumping or sky-diving. No desire to do so whatsoever.

I had a very strange first reaction to his email. My first thought was, "Thank God! Now my job here is done and I'm free and can die in peace." I don't typically think in that sort of spiritual way, but it was almost like it was my assignment on this planet to help him, like Clarence in It's a Wonderful Life. And now that it's done, I'm free to go (more feeling like I'm crazy.) I didn't react at all like this is finally the solution to our M problems.

For our M, I'm afraid there is just too much damage done. I think I truly understand ILYBINILWY.

[Crazyville]

Oh, and I'm also extremely pixxed that this counselor could have pointed my H to this online test 4 months ago, on the very first visit when my H says he told him he wanted to be tested for ADD. I also think an online test is a really crappy application for a face-to-face professional. So I'm struggling with the "wrongness" of this amidst my detachment.

[lostinscared]

Man, I hate reading your post right now. I really really do.

My H has agreed to all of my demands! Treatment, counseling and giving up his drinking buddy. I'm going home! Only I'm sick. Honest to God I'm sick to death. I love him, CV, I do. But in love? Ugh.

I can't believe the way you described your reaction. That's how I felt! Is it sick and wrong I just wanted to hear that he was not willing to do those things. I feel so wrong saying that. Can't even manage to say that to my b/f. It feels almost evil to say hey I wanted my H not to go get help so I could leave and have a clearer conscience. I know my thinking is bad. Ugh.

Fire the therapist. Seriously. Gross incompetence if you ask me.

[Crazyville]

Well, he's not MY therapist to fire, unfortunately.

Sorry if my posts were hard to read. You said you felt the same way I described it. I know I've gotten here because I've simply ridden this crazy train too many times before. I know the script by heart. I didn't get the impression that your sitch was like that. Maybe it was and I just missed that? I could probably relate to that in your case if my H had had a PA; just too hard to get past, I think. But your H has yet to admit to that, right? In any case, I completely relate. And I suspect your family is not making it easy either, because I could imagine they don't want you to go back to him either.

Chat as little or as much as you need. (((LIS)))

[lostinscared]

My sitch compares in that he's made plenty of promises before and he's failed in all of them.

He's never admitted to the affair and never will. I just know that. I admitted to the fact that I was dating someone while we were apart. But that was a part of a whole other conversation. Meaning, I told him that I felt a different way in that R than I did in the current R with my H. It actually got far deeper than that. Unfairly, I said I was mad at him about the whole thing. I said that my life was going fine and that he came back and I wrecked my life over it. Is it reality? Probably not. Was it his fault? Definitely not.

He's never agreed to counseling. He's railed against it, in fact. And I should be happy he did, I suppose. Only I don't feel happy AT ALL. I'm trying so hard to sort it out but I can't, CV. Something is just not right inside of me and I can't seem to get it all figured out. I'm so frustrated with myself. And let's say I go back. Then what? I don't know how to feel differently. I just don't. It would be so much easier all the way around to feel differently. I love this man but I cannot find my way back. I don't trust him. AT ALL.

As far as my family? Well, the advice has run hot and cold. The two biggest influences I'm with right now are my brother and my mom. My mom does not want me going back. She's gentle in her approach about that, but she is resolved in her mind that is not what she wants for me. My brother thinks that if my H agrees to my demands, then I should "do the right thing" and go back. My b/f says that my H and I both love one another and that it is no more complicated than that. That I have a habit of complicating things (which is absolutely true) and that I need to not do that. My friend also thinks, though, that going back would not produce different results. And the funny thing is that I know that's probably right. Because, CV, I don't feel different. You mentioned having sex with your H. I haven't had sex with mine in 2 1/2 years. The thought of it makes me physically ill. Honest. He was with someone else and I just can't get beyond it. And yes, I've read all the books. And yes, this is probably a weakness in me.

I've been sitting here a week. I want to be at my house. I don't like living on a couch. I don't like not having privacy. I owned 2 houses and I'm on someone's couch! It's very uncomfortable. I miss my animals. My H constantly sent pics the last time of them... I asked him to stop doing that. That it just hurt me more. I'm thankful that he did stop doing that. I say that I miss him. But is that the truth? Not really. I miss my house and my animals and my stuff. But can I say that to anyone? No. Because I know I sound like an awful person. Truly, I feel like going back is like giving up on my life. I have a GREAT job waiting for me. I have a beautiful house. A H who claims to love me. Cold comfort... that's all it means to me. And I know I sound like a ungrateful b*tch and I'm going to he!!.

Sigh.

[Crazyville]

I don't think you sound like that at all. Of course, I'm saying a lot of what you're saying, so I'm probably not the one to judge.

So the question is, what CAN you make of it? If you haven't had sex with your H in 2 1/2 years, how does he react to that? Mine has been nothing near that long, but H still gripes a ton. I'm not sure either of you would be content with a sexless M, though I know you have zero desire with him.

Could you give your H a half-hearted agreement, go back to your "cold comfort" and your warm fur-babies and let it play out? It is possible that he'll fail, not that I'm hoping for it. But giving up the drinking won't likely be an easy task for him. I'm just thinking you can alleviate your conscience by giving him another chance, but only one and then you're done. Though I'm not sure you even need to give him another if he's promised and failed so many times before. At this point, it really sounds like it's just a matter of logistics. I wouldn't even try to change your mental state (re-engaging) for some time, until he has proven himself.

I don't know what your H gets out of the M. It sounds like he didn't spend any time with you anyway, between work and partying. What is HE hoping for if you come back? My H wants Norman Rockwell. He doesn't live his part, but he expects me to.

I can't tell you how to get the feeling back. I don't know how.

[Crazyville]

BTW, why are you/he opposed to counseling?

[lostinscared]

Hey CV! Sent this to my H today from Marriage Missions International. I thought you might relate:

WHY SOME SPOUSES GIVE UP

The following story is a parable meant to be used as an imaging tool. It’s not meant to give a spouse, who is ready to give up on a marriage, an excuse to do so. It can however, give the abandoned spouse a better understanding as to why their spouse may have decided to leave their marriage when they did.

More importantly however, this parable is meant to be used as a “wake-up call” to those spouses who are asleep to the fact that they’ve been neglecting their family. And if they don’t come to that realization and do something to drastically reverse their neglectful behavior immediately —they may wake up one morning to find themselves alone without a family to care for and spend time with.

Read the following edited story with an open mind and heart as to what the author Andy Stanley is trying to tell those who think their family should keep understanding why they spend so much time away from them. Pastor Stanley writes:

Use your imagination for just a moment. Imagine that your best friend walks up to you in your front yard one Saturday and asks you to do him a favor. You have some free time, and so you agree to do it. He walks over to his car, opens the trunk, and produces a thirty-pound rock.

Now here’s where you’re really going to have to use your imagination: At this point he hands you the rock and says, “I really need you to stand here with this rock until I return.” He explains why it’s important that you stand in that one spot with the rock and promises to return shortly to retrieve it. It’s a strange request, and his explanation doesn’t make a lot of sense, but this is someone you trust, so you agree. At this point he thanks you with extreme gratitude and then gets into his car and drives away.

An hour goes by. And what started out as a reasonable favor is beginning to get a little hard. But after all, this is your best friend, so you resign yourself to continue on and stand there. Another hour goes by and your arms are starting to ache. Everything in you wants to sit down, but you made a promise. Then suddenly, to your relief, your friend pulls in the driveway, jumps out of the car, and runs in your direction. You’re so relieved. If you weren’t holding the rock, you’d hug him.

But your joy is quickly crushed. Instead of relieving you of your burden he says, “I told you I was coming right back. But I need to run one more quick errand. If you’ll keep holding the rock, I’ll make it up to you when I return.” Once again, you trust that what you’re told is true. If your friend needs to run one more errand before relieving you that is just the way it is. So you agree. As he turns to go you can’t help but yell out, “Please hurry.” Off your friend goes and there you stand.

Another hour goes by. The sun begins to set. Your muscles are aching to be able to drop the rock. But you refuse to give in. You’re committed to holding up your part of what you promised. Besides, your friend said he’d make it up to you. You aren’t sure what that means, but it must be something good. Thirty minutes later a car pulls up in the driveway. Someone you don’t know is driving. This person walks over and informs you that your friend has been delayed. “Would you mind holding the rock for just a little while longer?” he asks.

You experience a mixture of pain and anger. You manage to mutter, “Just tell him to hurry.”

Away the person goes and there you stand. It’s dark now. The streets are empty. The neighbors are at their windows watching you stand there, wondering why you’d put up with being treated like that by a “friend.”

Another hour goes by. You begin to lose your grip. Your arms begin to fall. You tell yourself to hold on, but your body just won’t respond. Down goes the rock. And just as it hits the pavement and breaks into a hundred pieces, your friend pulls up in the driveway. He jumps out of the car, runs over with a look of panic on his face, and says, “What happened? Did it slip? Did somebody knock it out of your hands? Did you change your mind?” And as he looks for an explanation as to why you suddenly dropped the rock, you know that it was a long time coming.

Now let me explain what happened in terms that will help us later on. Your mental willingness was overcome by your physical exhaustion. You wanted to do what you were asked to do, but after awhile you just couldn’t do it anymore. Add to that the frustration of being misled about how long you’d have to stand there. But even if the aggravation is put aside, at some point you just weren’t going to be able to keep holding on. No amount of love, dedication, commitment, or selflessness was going to be able to make up for the fact that your arms were worn out.

Now, let’s add another element to that story: You’re about to pass out from exhaustion. And finally a car pulls up in the driveway. You’re so angry and in so much pain you know you’ll have to choose your words carefully. Sure enough, it’s your friend. He walks over slowly with one hand behind his back. He forces a smile and says, “I brought you something.”

Suddenly he brings out from behind his back a bouquet of flowers. At that point you don’t just drop the rock; you find within yourself just enough strength to throw it at him! As he ducks, he exclaims, “What was that all about? I bought you flowers, didn’t I?”

Now, I probably don’t need to apply my little parable. The meaning is pretty obvious. So at the risk of insulting your intelligence, let me be painfully specific:

• When we ask our husbands and wives to carry their load as well as ours, it’s like handing them a rock.

• When we’re absent at critical junctures in family life, they’re left holding the rock.

• When we find ourselves pointing to the future to somehow make up for the past and the present, they’re holding the rock.

• When we assure our families that things are going to change and they don’t, they’re holding the rock.

The interesting thing is that they always accept it. And why not? They love us. They trust us. Besides, we always reassure them that they’ll only have to hold it for a short time.

Everybody is willing to be “understanding” when a loved one needs to neglect the family as a top priority for a reasonable period of time. And in real life, taking time away from the family because of job responsibilities is sometimes unavoidable. But when they’re left to carry a load of neglect they were never created to carry in the first place—it’s just a matter of time before things will begin to unravel.

There’s a point at which that mental willingness isn’t enough to hang on. With a literal rock, mental willingness is eventually overcome by physical exhaustion. With an imaginary rock, mental willingness is eventually overtaken by emotional exhaustion. And when that happens, the rocks come tumbling down.

There’s always a final straw: a comment, a phone call, a tired explanation, a no-show, a forgotten birthday, or a missed game. Some little thing that pushes those we love past their ability to hold on. And to the uniformed, unsuspecting spouse —to the husband or wife who has lived with the fantasy that everything is just fine-it seems like a huge overreaction. They think: ”All I said was.” ”All I did was.”

But it wasn’t the moment. It wasn’t the phone call. It wasn’t the fact that the big hand on the clock was on the six instead of the twelve. It was weeks, months, or possibly years of waiting for things to change. The rock finally slipped out of their calloused hands.

When the rock drops, you’ll do everything in your power to pick it up and piece it back together. You’ll find the time to devote to fixing the problem. But in my experience, when the rock drops, there is always some permanent damage. Most rocks can’t be put back together again.

Do you know what your family wants from you more than anything else? They want to feel accepted. In practical terms, they want to feel like they are your priority.

“But they are my priority,” you might argue. That may be true. They may be your priority in your heart, but that’s not the point. They want to feel like your priority. It’s not enough for them to be your priority. They must feel like it.

I’ll never forget discussing this point with a very busy corporate vice president. He kept assuring me of how much he loved his wife and kids. Finally I interrupted him and said, “The problem is, you love your family in your heart, but you don’t love them in your schedule. They can’t see your heart —they only know your schedule.”

Keep in mind that the chief indicator to your family of where you place your loyalty is time. It’s what you put on our calendar. Where you spend your time is an indication of where your loyalties lie. In effect, you pledge your allegiance to the person or thing that receives your time.

Are there time-consuming bridges you need to burn? Are there accounts at work you need to hand off? Are there some out-of-town meetings that need to be handled on the phone? Is there an offer you need to refuse? A promotion you need to give back? Once you’ve made up your mind to make your family more of a priority, it will become all too clear what stands in the way of your being able to focus on your commitment to re-prioritize.

So what is your non-negotiable? What does it look like? Does it mean leaving the office everyday at 5:30, regardless? Does it mean never missing one of your children’s performances or ball games? What does the commitment look like in your world?

Again promising to do “better” won’t get it. You’ve already done that. That terminology doesn’t even register with your family. They’ve heard that before.

[Crazyville]

I can see that and it makes a lot of sense. Who of us have not done the contest to see how long you can hold something with your arm outstretched. I've tried to explain to my H before that I just don't think I have it in me. It's not even a choice anymore. I think it's too broken to put back together. And M isn't just a rock that sits and does nothing. M is hard to manage in a positive way without being shattered first.

This is one that I read a few years ago that I really like. I think it might be what people are referring to when they advise someone to "drop the rope."

THE BRIDGE - A METAPHOR

"The Bridge"

There was a man who had given much thought to what he wanted
from life. He had experienced many moods and trials. He had
experimented with different ways of living, and he had had his
share of both success and failure. At last, he began to see
clearly where he wanted to go.

Diligently, he searched for the right opportunity. Sometimes he
came close, only to be pushed away. Often he applied all his
strength and imagination, only to find the path hopelessly
blocked. And then at last it came. But the opportunity would not
wait. It would be made available only for a short time. If it
were seen that he was not committed, the opportunity would not
come again.

Eager to arrive, he started on his journey. With each step, he
wanted to move faster; with each thought about his goal, his
heart beat quicker; with each vision of what lay ahead, he found
renewed vigor. Strength that had left him since his early youth
returned, and desires, all kinds of desires, reawakened from
their long-dormant positions.

Hurrying along, he came upon a bridge that crossed through the
middle of a town. It had been built high above a river in order
to protect it from the floods of spring.

He started across. Then he noticed someone coming from the
opposite direction. As they moved closer, it seemed as though
the other was coming to greet him. He could see clearly,
however, that he did not know this other, who was dressed
similarly except for something tied around his waist.

When they were within hailing distance, he could see that what
the other had about his waist was a rope. It was wrapped around
him many times and probably, if extended, would reach a length
of 30 feet.

The other began to uncurl the rope, and, just as they were
coming close, the stranger said, "Pardon me, would you be so
kind as to hold the end a moment?"

Surprised by this politely phrased but curious request, he
agreed without a thought, reached out, and took it.

"Thank you," said the other, who then added, "two hands now, and
remember, hold tight." Whereupon, the other jumped off the bridge.

Quickly, the free-falling body hurtled the distance of the ropes
length, and from the bridge the man abruptly felt the pull.
Instinctively, he held tight and was almost dragged over the
side. He managed to brace himself against the edge, however, and
after having caught his breath, looked down at the other
dangling, close to oblivion.

"What are you trying to do?" he yelled.

"Just hold tight," said the other.

"This is ridiculous," the man thought and began trying to haul
the other in. He could not get the leverage, however. It was as
though the weight of the other person and the length of the rope
had been carefully calculated in advance so that together they
created a counterweight just beyond his strength to bring the
other back to safety.

"Why did you do this?" the man called out.

"Remember," said the other, "if you let go, I will be lost."

"But I cannot pull you up," the man cried.

"I am your responsibility," said the other.

"Well, I did not ask for it," the man said.

"If you let go, I am lost," repeated the other.

He began to look around for help. But there was no one. How
long would he have to wait? Why did this happen to befall him
now, just as he was on the verge of true success? He examined
the side, searching for a place to tie the rope. Some
protrusion, perhaps, or maybe a hole in the boards. But the
railing was unusually uniform in shape; there were no spaces
between the boards. There was no way to get rid of this newfound
burden, even temporarily.

"What do you want?" he asked the other hanging below.

"Just your help," the other answered.

"How can I help? I cannot pull you in, and there is no place to
tie the rope so that I can go and find someone to help me help you."

"I know that. Just hang on; that will be enough. Tie the rope
around your waist; it will be easier."

Fearing that his arms could not hold out much longer, he tied
the rope around his waist.

"Why did you do this?" he asked again. "Don't you see what you
have done? What possible purpose could you have had in mind?"

"Just remember," said the other, "my life is in your hands."

What should he do? "If I let go, all my life I will know that I
let this other die. If I stay, I risk losing my momentum toward
my own long-sought-after salvation. Either way this will haunt
me forever."

With ironic humor he thought to die himself, instantly, to jump
off the bridge while still holding on. "That would teach this
fool." But he wanted to live and to live life fully. "What a
choice I have to make; how shall I ever decide?"

As time went by, still no one came. The critical moment of
decision was drawing near. To show his commitment to his own
goals, he would have to continue on his journey now. It was
already almost too late to arrive in time. But what a terrible
choice to have to make.

A new thought occurred to him. While he could not pull this
other up solely by his own efforts, if the other would shorten
the rope from his end by curling it around his waist again and
again, together they could do it. Actually, the other could do
it by himself, so long as he, standing on the bridge, kept it
still and steady.

"Now listen," he shouted down. "I think I know how to save you."
And he explained his plan.

But the other wasn't interested.

"You mean you won't help? But I told you I cannot pull you up by
myself, and I don't think I can hang on much longer either."

"You must try," the other shouted back in tears. "If you fail, I
die."

The point of decision arrived. What should he do? "My life or
this other's?" And then a new idea. A revelation. So new, in
fact, it seemed heretical, so alien was it to his traditional
way of thinking.

"I want you to listen to me carefully," he said, "because I mean
what I am about to say. I will not accept the position of choice
for your life, only for my own; the position of choice for your
own life I hereby give back to you."

"What do you mean?" the other asked, afraid.

"I mean, simply, it's up to you. You decide which way this ends.
I will become the counterweight. You do the pulling and bring
yourself up. I will even tug a little from here." He began
unwinding the rope from around his waist and braced himself anew
against the side.

"You cannot mean what you say," the other shrieked. "You would
not be so selfish. I am your responsibility. What could be so
important that you would let someone die? Do not do this to me."

He waited a moment. There was no change in the tension of the rope.

"I accept your choice," he said, at last, and freed his hands.


--From "FRIEDMAN'S FABLES" by Edwin Friedman,
published by Guilford Press

[Crazyville]

BTW, did your H respond to what you sent him?

[lostinscared]

Wow, CV, that was awesome! Thank you for sharing it!

His response: "Very thought provoking."

[scaredsilly]

Loved that, CV.

[oldtimer]

"I knew Wellbutrin wasn't ADD, because *I* took it some time back for depression."


You might want to google that rather than drawing such a hasty conclusion.


How about for one month you stop any thoughts about H's flaws, problems, errors, lack of follow through, etc. That is for one month, STOP yourself from focusing on H and any criticisms and complaints you have of him.

Rather, write down all the ways in which you are a flawed partner. Write down how these flaws have harmed your relationship with H and others. Write down all the ways in which you are stuck and choose to stay stuck because of fear. Focus only on yourself. Do not write down *anything* about H that involves his behavior, thoughts, feelings. This limits you to statements like: "I am afraid H will leave at a time when it is inconvenient for me." "I demonize others and play the victim when I describe a lack of follow through on good intentions as lies and deception."

Also, write down all the ways in which you are a great partner. Write down how these traits have helped your relationship with H and others. Write down all the ways in which you are moving forward even in light of of fear. Focus only on yourself. Do not write down *anything* about H that involves his behavior, thoughts, feelings. This limits you to statements like: "I am able to be open to H not meaning to hurt me even when I feel hurt." "I sometimes try to give genuine space to others even if I don't like how they choose to do something."

Rinse and repeat. If you find yourself writing about H, mark it out with a Sharpie. If you find yourself thinking about H's issues, STOP it. Turn to finding a parallel or somehow similar flaw in yourself.

Just STOP externalizing your unhappiness.

[Crazyville]

Yes, OT, the use of Wellbutrin was already explained to me somewhat by LIS.

I don't know how to separate myself emotionally from the outside world. I don't know how to *not* let outside things affect my *internal* happiness. I don't even know the difference. I stopped watching the news years ago when the Irag war was in full force and they tallied the war casualties every night, because I would get so depressed after hearing yet another 18yo kid was killed and imagining the loss the family must feel. The widow across the street has buried two loving H's; the first killed by a drunk driver, the second by cancer. She's only 60. That makes me sad. I don't know how to not "externalize my unhappiness," and think instead, "Well, bummer for YOU, but I'm still happy!" In fact, I consider someone that can do that as being cold and indifferent, and wouldn't even want to be that way.

"Write down all the ways in which you are moving forward even in light of of fear."
Moving forward, to where?

[Crazyville]

I've been trying to compile some sentences like you suggested above. For example, "I demonize others and play the victim when I describe a lack of follow through on good intentions as lies and deception." I can't use this because it don't contort his lack of follow through as lies. In fact, I posted specifically that I don't consider that lying. So using the same context, if I start with "H frequently doesn't match his actions to his words and so I don't trust him." Is that demonizing him? It's true, and it's something he readily admits. It's simply a fact of life, like that he wears a 38 in pants. It could change, but it doesn't mean I'm demonizing him or calling him fat because I state an unembellished fact.

And if I just focus on myself as you said: "I do not trust H." Okay, now what? I don't consider it a flaw in me, I consider it a wise response to external stuff. It doesn't mean I'm 'afaid' anymore than I'm afraid to eat beets. Tried it, didn't like it, don't care to try it again, thanks.

I don't really get the "end goal" of your suggestion.

[movingon-1968]

CV,

Here's an article on Welbutrin and it's use in treating ADD/ADHD. I was on it for a while, until it quit working - not for ADD, though.

He can certainly respond for himself if I'm wrong, but, I think OT is trying to get you to write down what you bring to the table yourself - so to speak - in the R. Both good and bad. The attribute of you that are what you've identified that are detrimental to the R as well as the good ones; and to not focus on the flaws of your H.

OT, if I'm wrong, you can 2x4 me...

[oldtimer]

It doesn't matter if you like my examples. Write your own. Address two questions:
How are you a partner who contributes to unhealthy relationships? How are you a partner that does the opposite?

The end goal is to try to get you to focus on the only thing you can change and to quit playing the poor stuck victim who does no wrong except to martyr herself.

[movingon-1968]

^^^ Much better explanation...

[Crazyville]

Okay, I understand the exercise. I'm still not sure of the end-goal.

I'm going to analogize this because it makes it easier for me to be objective and not emotional.

Let's say instead of this being a M, this is a business. So now I list everything I bring to the business to make it successful, and everything I bring that causes harm to the business. I can focus on improving my negative traits, obviously. I can also decide/determine as an individual if I even have the capacity to make the business successful on my own. If I feel I don't, because I'm simply lacking in certain talents or energies that I don't believe I'll ever overcome, then I can choose to not have the business.

Alternatively, I can bring a "partner" into the business. That partner has a list of traits as well, both positive and negative. The only reason someone would likely bring a partner into a business is because the joining partner brought something beneficial to the table, and that those benefits outweighed the deficits. If that is not the case, then inventorying *my* traits is irrelevant. I already knew I didn't possess the skills/talents/energies necessary all by myself to make it successful. That's why I looked for a partner in the first place. That's why I "interviewed" him extensively before partnering with him.

Now, the business is failing. I don't see what good it does to make a list of my positive and negative traits at this point. "Together" we don't have what it takes to make the business successful. And I know I don't have it in me to make it work by myself even if I was absolutely perfect. The fact that H does not bring more positive than negative to the table only makes matters worse.

The fact is that I *need* some things from my M partner that I can't adequately provide for myself. Just like my H would like to have sex -- from a W, rather than from his five-fingered friend. I have needs as well that simply can't be met by improving on my list of short-comings.

Nor do I see where I'm being a "martyr" because I recognize that the business is failing, that I can see that I would be better suited in a different line of business, or perhaps under the employ of someone else. If I'm martyring on anything, it's only in regard to S12, and I don't see that as being a martyr but just doing what I feel is best for him as his parent.

[oldtimer]

CV,

I am certain that you can offer yourself arguments to rationalize not working on yourself.

If you want to find a happier more fulfilling life, though, the work lies within you.

If you can't stand not to focus on/fix/criticize/belittle and otherwise point to H as the source of your unhappiness for a month, how about two weeks? Or one week?

You've got to break the pattern. It is not helpful. You are stuck (at best).

STOP focusing on H's failings. COMPLETELY. Not forever, just for a decent amount of time.

And, I'm quite certain you don't see yourself as a martyr, or as controlling, or as stuck, or as externalizing things, or as.... You are quite adept at avoiding criticism on such matters. So what. There are plenty of very smart people here.

Choose to work on yourself, or not. But if you want to move forward to a happier place, that is the path upon which to embark. If you choose not to do so, fine, but quit complaining about taking the path to nowhere and finding that is precisely where it takes you.

[oldtimer]

And, with that I'll go back to radio silence on this thread. I'm OK with a test drive now and then on a stuck thread, but I won't hang out to spin my wheels if I find mud.

[Crazyville]

I'm sorry if you feel like you're spinning your wheels. I was simply seeking understanding. I like to know the "why" for doing something.

I didn't say I'm opposed to improving myself. I've said in the past that I think that's sort of the purpose of life, that we should all be growing personally our whole life or there's not much point in living.

I can make a "happier me" as you put it just by GAL'g. What I don't understand is how to make a happier M when my changing "me" does not get me what I need from my M.

[scaredsilly]

CV, saw this on another forum I belong to.
"I stayed with my ex for many years, knowing I wanted a divorce. I waited until our daughter was about to graduate HS. Later when I got some counseling because my daughter was going out with a real loser, the counselor asked me what was I teaching our daughter by staying with an alcoholic and in an unhappy marriage? I was teaching her that it is okay to stay in an unhealthy relationship. I came out of that session crying. I thought I was doing the right thing not divorcing when she was younger and staying until she was older, but guess not. Now my daughter is 32 and she says she knew when she was 12 that we were going to get divorced, she just wondered what I was waiting for."

It's never easy this life livin'.

[Crazyville]

I've heard that sort of thing before. If H were an alcoholic or abusive, I would definitely see the benefit of leaving now. But S12 said something yesterday that solidified my already firm decision to stay for now.

It's possible that people's suggestions are just coming from different motives, but I'm trying to ferret it out. It seems that some people think I can make a happy M by changing me. I simply don't see that. If that is the message, then I would like to know how H could change himself to be happy in a M without sex. Because that is the equivalent of what I feel like I'm dealing with.

[scaredsilly]

Well, you may just have to come to an acceptance that you're stuck (for the sake of your S), realize that there's no fixing this, and that you'll have to figure out how to not be miserable?

You're a smart woman. You probably could direct your energy more in that direction than trying to make your H what you need or figure out why he doesn't get it. You might find some semblance of a happy life.

[oldtimer]

No, the idea is to take full responsibility for your contributions to the R, focus on those. If you take responsibility and become the partner you wish to be, then you will become happier. You may improve your M or not, who knows?

But, again, more picking and analyzing. No movement.

[Crazyville]

No, OT, this is simply where we disagree. I WAS the partner I wished to be. I became sad/unhappy in the M because I was not getting from it what I needed. Being the partner I wish to be without any reciprocation does NOT make me a happier person, it makes me feel taken advantage of.

[oldtimer]

You are a free adult. Drop the victim trap.

Try something different. Dodging yourself has gotten you nowhere. I'd say its taken you backwards.

If you aren't leaving the M, then why not try something you defensively think is B.S.? What can it hurt?

You have got to drop the arrogance before you'll ever find your way to a better place.

[oldtimer]

You know, I believe you think I judge you. I don't. I speak from personal experience.

[Crazyville]

Doing something "different," fine, but what you're suggesting is what I did for years. I'm not going to be a "fool" and do the same thing over expecting a different result.

[Crazyville]

And also, if you followed my thread all the way through, you would see that I did that about a month ago. I was absent from the site for about 3 weeks while I spent two weeks again "being the partner I wished to be." H was happy, happy, happy. After two weeks of no reciprocation (which H readily admits he didn't,) I stopped. I'm glad that lifestyle works for you; it doesn't make ME happy. I think I don't make as good a martyr as you suggest I do.

[oldtimer]

Please point to where you did this:

"How about for one month you stop any thoughts about H's flaws, problems, errors, lack of follow through, etc. That is for one month, STOP yourself from focusing on H and any criticisms and complaints you have of him.

Rather, write down all the ways in which you are a flawed partner. Write down how these flaws have harmed your relationship with H and others. Write down all the ways in which you are stuck and choose to stay stuck because of fear. Focus only on yourself. Do not write down *anything* about H that involves his behavior, thoughts, feelings. This limits you to statements like: "I am afraid H will leave at a time when it is inconvenient for me." "I demonize others and play the victim when I describe a lack of follow through on good intentions as lies and deception."

Also, write down all the ways in which you are a great partner. Write down how these traits have helped your relationship with H and others. Write down all the ways in which you are moving forward even in light of of fear. Focus only on yourself. Do not write down *anything* about H that involves his behavior, thoughts, feelings. This limits you to statements like: "I am able to be open to H not meaning to hurt me even when I feel hurt." "I sometimes try to give genuine space to others even if I don't like how they choose to do something."

Rinse and repeat. If you find yourself writing about H, mark it out with a Sharpie. If you find yourself thinking about H's issues, STOP it. Turn to finding a parallel or somehow similar flaw in yourself."

[Crazyville]

I can't "point to it" because I was absent. It was at page 33 of my last thread, from the period from 1/17 thru 2/6. I did what you said in my head, though I didn't go through the exercise of "writing it down." (I didn't have the assignment at that time, of course.) I presume I was successful with my approach because H was very happy with it. He said so.

At the end of the period, I simply felt spent and empty and very alone. What pleasure are you suggesting I'm supposed to get out of this exercise, such that "writing it down" would have made all the difference?

[oldtimer]

It sounds like you tried to act like you would if you had the ideal partner. But, you will never have the ideal partner, which makes it a pretty useless exercise.

Moreover, I don't believe that you really want to be a partner who martyrs herself and self-sacrifices so much that it leaves you tired and sulking. So, you didn't really behave as a person with healthy boundaries, which I assume is part of who you would want to be.

In any case, the idea is to do a writing exercise, not to "act as if." I have no idea if such writing would give you pleasure. I would think instead that it would be difficult and painful at times.

The purpose in writing it down is to genuinely examine your life and your contributions to your situation. As for whether it would make a difference in your life, I don't know that either. It seems to me that your resistance and reactivity are high. But, it might nevertheless help. Especially, if after one month, you do a second month, and then a third month... In any case, who knows, it might help. Certainly you can't know without trying it.

Remember, this is different from "acting as if" or some such. The idea is to: (1) work on the written exercise and (2) stop your thoughts that involve criticism/complaint/fixing/analysis of H in your mind and on paper.

It seems like your posts here allow you to act out to self-medicate rather than to make change within. You have acknowledged your sickness of over-functioning. This is part of being codependent. It might be helpful to post at co-dependents anonymous in addition to here or instead of here.

[Crazyville]

If having a reciprocal partner qualifies as the "ideal" partner, then I would like to not ever be M'd. My definition of M is reciprocal. I was acting as the partner I would like to be, but like my job, it's not intended to charity. I expect to get "paid." My healthy boundary was evident after two weeks of non-reciprocal interaction. I'm willing to go first; I'm just not willing to go alone.

I can do the exercise you're talking about. It's not far off from what I've done in the past. I tend to type rather than write, but I don't suspect that matters. I'm sure I could go through some of my old files and put together a pretty significant list without any new thoughts. Many of the issues are old news and have already been addressed. And I've done this with all of my R's: parents, step-kids, friends, co-workers, etc. It's not a foreign concept to me, just a different technique.

I have spent time on a co-d site, as well as a step-parenting site, M site, home organization site, gardening site, etc. THIS is a divorce-busting site. Yes, I do vent, I do ask questions, regarding M/R's. I thought that was the purpose of the site.

So if I were fully invested and completely successful, what is the end-goal? How does your suggestion "bust my D?"

[oldtimer]

The point of this site is to work on changing oneself. But you seem to be using these boards in other ways, to bash H and to gain feelings of superiority in other ways. The self-medicating to which I refer is not venting, or at least not only in the continuing stream of H-bashing. It is in your defensive posts to others that appear to me to be an unhealthy form of self-medication.

The best chance you have for a healthy M is to become healthier yourself. Certainly no guarantees that it will fix your M.

Research shows that writing is more helpful.

You might read back on all your threads and notice that you resist most suggestions with something very similar to the last line of your post. This resistance combined with the hostile defensiveness suggests to me that you remain stuck.

To get unstuck requires dropping the defensiveness, the resistance, the arrogance. I wish I could do that for you, but I can't. Only you have the power to take genuine steps in that direction.

Done here now.

[Crazyville]

And there's that negative interpretation of my responses again, described as "hostile defensiveness" and "arrogance." I'm not hostile. I don't even feel defensive. Anyone who knows me thinks I'm anything but arrogant. I don't know how that comes across in my posts. I wish I knew how to say it differently, less offensively. I guess that's the first thing I should put on my list...

[Crazyville]

So, you know the old saying, "Be careful what you wish for."

Well I had my humbling experience a couple of weeks ago, with an added bonus of humiliation, fear, physical injury and illness, and financial burden. Regardless, it was effective. I had to call H for assistance. He was aces. He really was. Thankfully, none of my situation rolled over onto him, other than having to come and get me, so that's good.

What it did for me was clear my head and my emotional baggage. I'm not angry at H anymore. I'm not judgmental of his actions anymore. I don't feel like my incident made us "even" because mine didn't impact him beyond the inconvenience of having to pick me up that night, but I don't need to get even either. I was grateful for him being there for me and I reinvested in him, again. I'm acting "as-if." The word he used to describe his reaction was "giddy." He's happy.

I'm not.

I'm actually a little emotionally dead, like the incident extinguished the last spark of passion or fight that I had left in me.

I'm beginning to think I'm becoming Accuray's W, where I'm just going to accept that this is who I am and give up trying to change me. It really is hard to figure it out, to fix it, and I think I'm tired of trying. And WTH, H is happy so I've met my obligation anyway, right? (Acc, I haven't seen an update on your sitch for quite some time, so forgive me if I'm misstating.)

I haven't posted here again for a few weeks because I believe focusing on problems makes them bigger. I've just been trying to make the best of things and be happy and content. I hoped I would heal from this incident in a positive way, like people that have a near-death experience and suddenly have a new zest for life.

So far, it hasn't worked that way. It's like I'm missing something. Like I hear everyone talking about how "sweet" something tastes, but I don't have a "sweet" taste bud so I never quite get what they're talking about. Like I see 40K+ people sitting at the stadium every time there's an at-home ballgame, and I just don't get it. All I see are big crowds and long lines to the bathrooms and exorbitant prices for food. Like someone shows me the $300 bargain they got on a Coach purse and I don't like it enough to give them .50 for it.

Like H invites me to go get lunch with him, then proceeds to read the newspaper, so I'm sitting across the table from him looking at the backside of the paper he's reading. Apparently, he thought I would enjoy that; he invited me to join him. But I didn't. What am I missing?

Like H suggests we do something together as a family, so S12 and I go pick up a couple of movies. S12 and I watch the movies while H sits on the other sofa with his laptop on his lap and his sound-reducing headphones on his head, until he finally sets them aside to lay down and fall asleep, snoring. His invite, his definition. I can only assume he thought we would enjoy our "family time." I didn't. What am I missing? It doesn't help my perception when S12 kept telling H to "leave," to go to bed. Apparently he wasn't enjoying it either.

The boys were out of town with boy scouts this weekend so I met up with a GF for dinner. We talked/visited for 7 hours. Never once did she pick up the newspaper or stare at the wall of TV's or fall asleep. Nor did I. I enjoyed it immensely. I think she did too because she was free to leave at any time but didn't. One thing she talked about that relates to my sitch: She said her S13 just broke up with his GF because when they were together, she would spend the whole time texting her friends. Apparently, it wasn't enjoyable for him. She evidently thought it would be (or she didn't like him and didn't care perhaps.) I actually found it ironic that he did have a problem with it, because it's such a prevalent thing with the younger generation, but I totally get it.

So where to go from here? I've already talked with H about how it makes me feel, repeatedly, throughout our M. I don't see his behavior changing. I'm not even judging his behavior, or stating that it's wrong. It's just his way. But it's not MY way. I just don't enjoy being with him. When I discussed here his falling asleep during movies before, it was responded to as if I was being unreasonable and unappreciative, that I should go put a blanket on him, etc. Fine, I'm doing that. But I'm still missing the enjoyment for me?

Knowing that I can only change me, how do I make myself enjoy this sort of interaction? I tried talking to H again, to ask him what I'm missing, to find out what HE would enjoy about going to lunch with me if I sat down and pulled out a book and started reading it. Talking to him is just not an option. He doesn't have the communication skills to address our issues. I think we both don't. Pointing out his behavior again after having done so our entire M just makes me feel bitchy. And it's pointless. So that's out.

So, in any case, I've been further humbled. I'm not sure I needed it before, as I've felt pretty valueless for some time.

It just doesn't seem like it should be this hard to have a mutually satisfying/enjoyable R with someone, especially when they claim that they want the same thing.

[Accuray]

Wow, very sorry to hear how things have been going! I'm not sure what incident you're referring to but it sounds like a car crash and I hope you're okay. To respond to your comment I don't think that you (or I) could be like my W. If you had the capacity to turn it off that way and just not deal with your issues you would have.

Let's go at this from another direction -- you've had good satisfying relationships prior to H right? You know you have it in you. Why stay in this one? You can't change him, but you also can't accept him as he is. There is no option for you at this point that doesn't suck, so embrace that and decide to pursue the least sucky option you feel you have. If you decide you won't have a good outcome, which one is least-worst?

Sorry CV I really do feel badly about your sitch

[Crazyville]

Acc, in regards to your W, I thought I recalled that she acknowledged that she was unhappy and simply accepted that about herself, being unwilling to try to improve that reality any longer. That's what I'm relating to. I feel like I'm serving a prison sentence and it's not supposed to be enjoyable so there's no point in trying to make it so. I realize there's a lot about my sitch that is sucky, but if it's going to be sucky for me anyway, I'd like to at least make it as good for S12 as possible (plus he's the very best part of my life and I get to see him 24/7, rather than some shared custody arrangement, so sticking it out for the next 5/6 years is probably the least sucky.)

So in the meantime, I'm about as pliable as a person can be right now. I have no pride left, no personal agenda at all. I'm supposed to work on me. I'm supposed to look at what I bring to the R, good and bad. I'm pretty much meeting every one of H's needs, except for being a happy W. I don't know how to do that, especially in light of my current state. I don't want to go into specifics of the incident, but I'm fine physically. Mentally and emotionally spent, suffering a little PTSD possibly, but fully aware that I made the choice to place myself in harm's way. It was stupid, I knew better but was in denial. But with regards to that, I'll be fine eventually. I know how to "fix" that.

I don't know how to "fix" being unhappy. I don't know how to enjoy being M'd. I don't know how to get my needs met by H, yet can't get them met by someone else. It seems easier to bury the need than to fake it with something else.

[Accuray]

W hasn't resigned herself to live in a marriage that doesn't make her happy -- in fact when she felt she was there she cheated and asked for divorce. What she resigned herself too is that she feels unworthy and inadequate. She doesn't enjoy sex and doesn't want to. She's not happy with herself but doesn't think it's worthwhile to deal with it.

That's different, it doesn't have anything to do with me or the marriage. It doesn't feel like a prison sentence to her because it's what she's chosen. The door is open and she could walk through it by seeking therapy, but she would rather remain dark and twisty to use her term.

In your situation you feel trapped and unhappy but you don't accept that it is okay for things to be this way and that's how you're different, and in my opinion healthier.

If you leave do you think H would want custody vs visitation? Did that ever come up in your history?

[oldtimer]

Hugs.

Maybe you have hit bottom. We all know that wasn't a simple car accident (or whatever.)

Try meetings for codependents. They may be miraculously healing for you for little cost in time and an optional donation of $1/meeting.

Have a beginner's mind. What can it hurt? Happiness is worth overcoming whatever roadblocks you have up your sleeve at the moment.

Take the risk. If nothing else, think of how satisfied you'd be to tell me about how six meetings did nothing for you, about how wrong I've been. That's gotta be a pretty good carrot for you :-)

[Crazyville]

Thanks for the clarification, Acc. I can see the differences. I wouldn't place any money on me being healthier, though.

To answer your question, yes, D/custody has been discussed. H has threatened to ruin me financially and fight for custody of S12. He was D'd before and has a D lawyer, so he has experience with the process to his advantage. I've seen his ugliness with his ex; I would never want to put my S12 through that. It's only 5-6 years, I can do that for him. I recognize that this sitch isn't perfect for him, but I'm positive D would be worse.

OT, I've looked into finding a CoDA meeting. There's one near me on Sunday evenings. I'll give it a try. Can you describe for me what a "beginner's mind" is? I've heard it a lot, thought I knew what it was but perhaps not.

[Crazyville]

Nevermind, OT, I looked it up. I thought it was more obscure, that I was missing something. I was having a beginner's mind, giving up what I know, letting go of being an "expert," throwing out what I "should" do, disregarding common sense and fear of failure (all pulled from an article on beginner's mind) a couple of weeks ago. It didn't turn out so well, and my beginner's mind is having a hard time celebrating falling down and getting up again. Rather, I just feel foolish.

I need some understanding more specific to my sitch, I think.

[oldtimer]

That's great! I'm so happy for you. I'm jealous though, there are no CoDA meetings near me, fortunately, the ideas generalize well across different meetings. I will be thinking of you on Sunday.

As for a beginner's mind, just be very open to questioning your assumptions. Be open to being surprised, be less sure of what you think you know about yourself and others. Try to be open, not resistant. When you feel resistance, put it in a box for awhile. You can always take it back out ;-)

[oldtimer]

CV,

Surely you aren't foolish, you just aren't perfect. Whatever you did was probably out of desperation and pain, but we can learn to act from healthier places. So please don't beat yourself up. Hold yourself gently. Have compassion for yourself and patience.

To be open and to examine your life and beliefs is consistent with using good judgment, setting healthy boundaries, and becoming wiser.

Hugs again.

[oldtimer]

P.S. I'm pretty Zen about the whole beginner's mind thing... http://zenhabits.net/how-to-live-life-to-the-max-with-beginners-mind/

[Crazyville]

That's the same article I was reading from.

BTW, thank you for being kind.

[oldtimer]

What 3 things will you do today that take no more than 10 minutes each will improve your life in some small way?

[Crazyville]

I suppose I could say that I took a shower, got dressed and brushed my teeth. Some days that is the best I can do. But I was actually very productive today. The weather was nice so I was able to work outside on a couple of projects that I had started a while back.

It's supposed to snow big tomorrow. I hope the meeting doesn't get canceled. I'm looking forward to it.

[oldtimer]

Snow here too. Hope it went well :-)

[Crazyville]

No meeting. No school today, either. This town shuts down when it gets more than an inch. Next week is Easter, so I'm not sure if I'll be able to do that one either. Darn the luck. I'm not giving up, though.

[Crazyville]

I ordered a new book, "The New Codependency: Help and Guidance for Today's Generation" by Melody Beattie, since I won't be able to make a meeting for probably 2 weeks now (Easter). It sounds like an updated version of her first book. With her first book, the whole concept was new and she's refined it since. I figure it can't hurt.

On a different note (or maybe not,) one thing I'm realizing that I really struggle with is regret. It's not guilt, because it's not things that I did that hurt someone else. Just poor decisions that I regret, that I feel like I should have known better and been smarter. Or situations that I got myself into because I was trusting or faithful or naive. I don't think it's a problem with forgiveness, because I've made a ton of mistakes that I've forgiven/forgotten. These are ones that don't go away, like not going to school 30 years ago and having to do it now. Or worse, regretting M'ing my H in the first place. Even if I D'd him now, it wouldn't turn back the clock or erase my memories or give me a do-over. But I can see the appeal for the WAS -- leaving is the closest thing I can imagine to a "fresh start."

So can anyone suggest a book on resolving regret? I think about people (Leonard Little comes to mind) that drink and drive and kill someone, then go and drink and drive again. How are they not buried in regret? AND guilt! I don't want to kill my conscience, I just want to be able to live my life and make decisions without living in fear of what I might do that I'll regret for the rest of my life.

[scaredsilly]

I don't think there's a way to get through life without regrets. I have some very big ones that try to pull me down sometimes; not staying in school and becoming a doctor is one of my biggest. I know I would have loved it and would have been good at it. When I see surgeons on tv or in hospitals, I feel this deep wave of sadness and longing.

CV, you sound so depressed. Have you spoken to your doctor about it?

[Crazyville]

Well I can say at least that's one regret I don't have! LOL! I was never cut out for the medical field, knew it early on. I thank God some people are up for it because it certainly wasn't going to be me! I'm sorry that's a regret of yours. Good doctors are a real gift.

Depressed, possibly. More just numb, I think. Maybe it's the same thing. I have talked to my doctor. Got a full physical; no issues. He prescribed some Wellbutrin but it didn't seem to do anything for me. I feel like I need something more life-applicable, rather than drugging myself through it. And I sure don't need the suicide-inducing side-effects that some of the A/D's have.

I think I need Clarence to come and show me how bad my life would have been otherwise, and how I really do have a "wonderful life."

[scaredsilly]

LOL! I think everyone on here, all their spouses, and all their family members need Clarence! In other words, everyone!

If it would show us how to be grateful, it would be nice. If it would show those whom we love, even nicer.

Maybe you could volunteer in a children's cancer center? Something like that would make a person feel really lucky.

[oldtimer]

"Signs of Codependency
Characteristics of codependency may include:
Consistently focusing on
[list]
[*] others needs even at your own expense.
Being unable to receive help from others; feeling uneasy when others focus their attention on you.
An sense of self based entirely on being a "helper.”
Much of your time and energy spent taking care of someone who abuses drugs or alcohol.
Unable to be alone or not in an intimate relationship.
Feeling responsible anytime someone close to you suffers.
Seeming very competent on the outside but actually feeling quite needy, helpless, or numb.
Having experienced abuse or emotional neglect as a child, or having grown up with an addicted or alcoholic parent or parent.
Rarely expressing your true thoughts, needs or feelings because you fear they would displease others, and perhaps taking pride in this fact."

[oldtimer]

I can believe for you until the next meeting. You'll find hope, support, dreams.

[Crazyville]

This codependency stuff is really difficult to resolve to the teachings of Christianity. I mean, don't instructions like "turn the other cheek," "consider others greater than yourself," and "forgive seven times seventy" sort of foster codependent behaviors? Not looking to start a big religious debate here, but it seems like I have 50 years of Christian/Catholic teaching to undo just to become healthy. And then when I do, do I still qualify as Christian? Ugh!

[oldtimer]

FWIW, with respect to complaints about religion and twelve step programs, the complaint is generally the opposite! Working the steps involves surrendering a lot of stuff to a higher power. It is difficult for many non-religious people to find a concept of higher power that works for them.

There are many ways to serve others ahead of yourself without damaging yourself. Indeed, finding a way to be of service to others is a big strategy in climbing out of co-dependence. There are healthy ways to serve others and unhealthy ways. The unhealthy ways aren't good for anyone.

I would think the purpose of turning the other cheek is to forgive and move forward. It doesn't require you to stay stuck, offering one cheek after another, over and over again. Indeed, wouldn't you be enabling harmful behavior of another? That is not loving toward yourself or the other.

Forgiveness and letting go of resentment is a huge part of recovering from codependency. So, no problem there.

And, from what I understand, you will likely find your Christian faith and spirituality greatly affirmed and deepened.

[keep_going]

Crazyville,

I agree with Oldtimer. I am Catholic and have been in CODA for almost a year now. I have not found any contradictions between their teachings and beliefs and have actually deepened my religious faith since I joined.

I would recommend CODA for anyone. I think we all have some codependent tendencies and issues regardless of our marital situation or upbringing. What you learn there is good for all your R, not just with your spouse. If you go to meetings you will see people there from all walks of life and with all kinds of situations. It has been very humbling and tremendously helpful for me. I hope you find it to be as well for you.

[Crazyville]

I haven't been able to make a meeting yet, but I received the book I ordered and started reading it. Right now, it's talking about boundaries and I have a question.

This is a problem from long ago, so I'm not looking for a solution, just a reflection. H's older son used to come over for dinner a couple nights a week as part of his custody schedule. The problem was that I never knew if or when, but H wanted me to hold dinner for him, just in case. There were a couple times we (including S12 who was only about 3 at the time) were eating at 9:00 at night. I found that unacceptable and told H that I wasn't going to hold dinner for older son anymore, unless I knew for certain he was coming over, when he was coming, and only then if that time was a reasonable time for dinner. H had an issue with that, claiming he did the best he could, that his son didn't always tell him or make his commitment, but that he felt it was important for us to eat together as a family. At the time, I struggled with feeling that I was being manipulative or controlling by setting this boundary. Of course, that feeling was exasperated because H told me I was.

To me, presenting boundaries, even in a direct and polite manner, ultimately seems to translate as "it's this or else." In this case, "tell me if and when he's going to be here, or else I'm not holding/eating dinner with you." I believe it's a healthy boundary/expectation, but to me it reeks of control and manipulation. At the same time, I agree that eating together as a family is a good thing, so then I also struggled with guilt, but also guilt about making S12 (then 3) wait to eat until he was supposed to be in bed.

Yet if I simply present it as "this is unacceptable to me so I'm not going to do it anymore," without the "or else," then I feel like I'm being intolerant, unforgiving and uncompromising (also supported by H) because I didn't even offer an alternative (aka. ultimatum.)

I realize I can filter out H's condemning judgments, but if I want a happy M, I feel like it's important to consider his desires/preferences. (eg. sex) If I just blow off his preference because *I* have a boundary or a preference of my own, how can I expect him to ever consider mine? And when we disagree, how do we resolve it? Like with the dinner time? We've done counseling forever, but for something like this, it just seems to be a "tie-breaker" for the specific issue, but doesn't carry forward. I don't want a 3-person M: me, H, and the counselor.

UGH!! Is this just a thin line and everyone struggles with it, or do I have something messed up and it's part of co-dependence or something else?

[scaredsilly]

wow, everything has it's own difficulties.

to me, a personal boundary is just something i cannot live with. it's sad if the other person doesn't like it or thinks it's unreasonable, intolerant, or uncompromising. it's what i NEED in order to NOT feel resentment.

i think your boundary WAS compromising. you stated that you would hold dinner under certain circumstances. to do anything otherwise, would have been uncompromising on your H's part. he wanted it ALL his way and was disrespectful to you and your S.

you had an obligation to your 3-year-old to feed him and put him to bed at a reasonable time.

the problem with your SS was really your H's but he tried to make it yours.

people don't always like boundaries from another person but that does not make them wrong. you have to protect yourself, IMO.

[Crazyville]

Thanks for your response, SS.

I'm certainly getting to the point with H that I can say "too bad" if he doesn't like something, because I *have* to do it for *me*, like you said about yourself. I have a concern, though, about that turning into a "tit for tat," in that H will retaliate because he didn't like my boundary. Next time I need something from him, he's very liable to refuse out of spite (BTDT.) That's his choice and I can't control him. But then the next time he wants something from me, how do I joyfully give him what he wants when I know he has intentionally dissed me? I know that giving comes from the heart, but I'm much more inclined to be generous to someone when they're not being a jerk to me, ya know? I'm afraid it could easily turn into a stand-off. But I'm sure people dislike boundaries all the time but still manage to work it out (not always, I know.) What is the course of action for the person with the boundary in the context of someone that doesn't like it and is being nasty about it? It almost seems like I have to have another boundary regarding a reciprocal M, another seeming "ultimatum" for equity (aka. tit for tat.) UGH!

I'm not suggesting I throw out my boundaries, I'm just looking for a way to avoid that ugliness It doesn't seem like it should be this hard.

[scaredsilly]

My H is a tit-for-tat person, too. I hate it! But I used to just seethe inside and then play the same game. It's passive aggressive behavior and it destroys a marriage.

I call him on it now but not in an aggressive way. I do it in a boundary-setting way. I tell him that something feels like a payback or tit-for-tat and that I can't live in that kind of relationship and will not.

So far, he's listened, mainly because he said some time ago that he doesn't like tit-for-tat behavior (ha).

But my boundary is pretty severe. I'm willing to leave our marriage rather than live with passive-aggressive behavior.

You're not Jesus. You don't have to be perfect and keep giving and giving to someone who is disrespectful towards you.

Boundaries let someone know what you will do if your core values aren't respected. It's not an ultimatum. They can be however they choose to be but will have to accept the consequences, or not. But the consequences will still be there.

I think the key, for me, has been to express my feelings before they "rot" inside me. H and I had a discussion recently where he wanted to do something that I had expressed to him months ago would be a deal breaker for me.

I had to control myself (it had to do with his adult daughter) but I advised him that I was not willing to be in a marriage where that would happen.

Had I gone along, as I used to, it would have poisoned our relationship. I won't live that way. He can do it or really, whatever he chooses to do, but my boundary is intact and it's not something I just sprung on him.

People will always try to push boundaries, especially, when they've not had to abide by them before. I look at it as getting MY life back.

[oldtimer]

CV,

It might help to start in the spirit of cooperation and partnership.

"H, this really isn't working for me, can we figure out a solution that meets both are needs?"

When you do set a boundary, consider ways you might still compromise. For example, with the meal thing, you might have always saved a desert for SS in case he showed up. A quick sandwich for him and a shared desert for all.

If you believe H retailiates, report it to him:

"H, I feel like that is in retaliation for me sticking to my boundary yesterday. I feel hurt and hopeless about improving our life together when that happens. I'm sad and frustrated. I want us each to be able to respect the other's boundaries and still have an active loving partnership."

Go to the meeting. Things that seem impossibly puzzling will become much easier.

[Crazyville]

Thanks, SS. I've definitely learned to express my feelings about things before they fester. Unfortunately, I think I have a pretty short fuse now. I don't like that I can "see" the train coming down the tracks and want to get out of the way while it's still a mile away (like the sitch with your SD.) I hope things worked out well with that! I know your SD was one of your deal-breakers. I don't think my H would take it well how you put it (not willing to be in a marriage where that would happen) because any discussion of D is simply not acceptable to him (call it HIS boundary.)

Thanks, OT. The suggestion that I would cook/hold dinner if H would just let me know if/when his son was coming over WAS my attempt at a partnership approach. H agreed but then didn't do it. I would say that has always been my biggest issue -- us discussing something, coming up with an agreeable solution, then H not keeping up his end. He knows it's a problem of his, and I do too, but it creates a real encumbrance for me to want to engage with him when I know there's a good chance I won't get my needs met, even if I've met his. My "compromise" ends up looking more like involuntary sacrifice.

Anyway, just for an update. I went to a CoDA meeting this past Sunday. It wasn't quite what I expected. I had hoped for more discussion about what codependency is and how it manifests itself in people's lives and what they do to cope with/address it. Instead, it seemed rather scripted. First, they passed around the list of the 12 steps and people took turns reading one. Then administrative stuff (scheduling, collecting dues, etc.) Then they passed a Co-D book and people took turns reading a couple of paragraphs. Then they passed around a list of self-affirmation quotes and each person picked one and read it out loud. Finally, for the last half-hour, they dimmed the lights, lit candles and opened the floor for sharing (max 5 mins.) People shared where they were or what they were struggling with at the time, but there was no discussion or feedback. Just share, "thank you," and on to the next.

They had a sign that said give it six meetings before deciding. I'll try to give it that, but I'm not sure how this is going to help. Maybe it's typical. I've never done a support group before.

On the positive note, after I left and realized it wasn't everything I hoped for, I didn't fall into a slump like I might normally have done. I had started a fitness program on April 1st and it has really done a lot for my mood. Or perhaps my mood has done a lot for my fitness program. Either way, I'm feeling great. The great spring weather is a definite plus (no allergies for me!) and I'm really enjoying getting outside. And my computer time involves very little relationship reading, and instead I'm focusing on self-motivating topics, or learning good eating habits and exercises, or looking up new recipes, etc. Maybe I'm just resigned to the state of things and just don't care to work on it anymore. It's not like I was having any success anyway.

Thanks for checking in! I hope all is going well with you!

[oldtimer]

Sounds like a good meeting. It is a source of support, but not a support group or group therapy. The process works, the ritual becomes comforting, glad you'll give it 6 meetings. Keep that open mind :-)

What you referred to as "dues" is probably voluntary and probably $1 or something, yes?

[Crazyville]

Yes, to the dues.

[keep_going]

C -

I agree with oldtimer - attend a few meetings. Sometimes what we need doesn't come in the shape or form we expect it and you may find yourself pleasantly surprised if you are open to something different and out of your comfort zone.

I wanted to mention that even though all 12-step programs share the same principles and guidelines (the 12 steps), each program is unique in its own way.

I used to go to Gam-Anon (for families of gamblers). The format for most of the meeting was similar to CoDA's, yet during the "open forum" time, after people shared during their 5 minutes, others were allowed to comment back. yet those responses needed to be about personal experiences and always in the first person. In other words, people could relate their own learnings or challenges based on what others shared, but could not give specific advice.

The point is that this is a personal journey and the meetings are non-judgmental and respectful of where everyone is within their own program.

While at CoDA it is more of a listening format, like you described, it is still a very powerful way to learn about yourself and others. Pretty much like coming here and "lurking" and reading other people's threads - you can find so much insight and learn so much...

I would also recommend trying different meetings. Each location runs their meetings differently and some are smaller, more intimate groups and others are quite large. Find where you feel more at home.

Finally, each week meetings vary - one week they are focused on a specific step, etc.

If you want to learn more about co-dependency, buy the "bible book" at your next meeting (all of them sell literature). It's called "Codependents Anonymous" and it describes co-dependency, goes in depth about each of the 12-steps and has a big section dedicated to personal stories. This section is tough to read, every story is real and told by the person who lived it. I cried when I read so many of those and it was truly humbling for me.

I guess the most important thing is that regardless of the group, meeting or literature, you will get the most out of all of them if and when you decide to do your own 12-step program. Not an easy thing to do, but it can be life-changing.

Good luck!

[oldtimer]

You OK?

[oldtimer]

knock knock

[Crazyville]

Hey, OT! What's up?

I'm still around, lurking, checking in on updates on a few threads occasionally. I haven't posted in forever because I really don't have much to report. Not sure if that's good or bad.

[Soul.Searching]

Hey CV How are you?

[Crazyville]

Hi SS! Perfect timing! I hadn't been on for a bit but just dropped by to do some journalling. I hope things are going well with you!

I believe I've reached the point where I've become a true WAW, short of the actual walking away. I have my time frame set (when S13 goes to college) and I'm planning my exit strategy. I've given up trying to talk to H about our R because he just shuts down instantly. I've told him my plan if things don't change. I'm comfortable that I gave it due diligence (and then some!) and he can't legitimately claim he didn't know.

I'm doing a good job GAL'g, still need to do better. And I'm still focusing on my known issues, like codependency and boundaries and detachment, and there's improvement there.

I'm not angry or bitter about things. I don't have negative feelings for H at all, I just accept that this is how he is and it doesn't work for me. If I had to sum it all up in one statement (besides ILYBINILWY), it would be that I'm simply not attracted to him anymore. I think attraction is based upon a belief that another person can meet your LL needs, and I just don't see that in him anymore. This lack of attraction kills any desire I have to try. Besides, try what? Try to change him so that I find him more attractive? That doesn't work. And if I've expressed my needs and he doesn't respond then there's really nowhere to go with it anyway. So I've been humming along like this for awhile.

We saw our counselor for one last time about a month ago. It's funny (in a very sad sort of way) that he admits he really doesn't know what to suggest to help us. He advised the book "Thriving in a Difficult M." After that, and after H complaining once again about our R discussions, I told him we didn't need to talk anymore. I had said (ad nauseum) everything I needed to say and was just repeating myself anyway. I said I would likely be able to address some of his complaints/needs (chit chat conversation, doing things together, family commitments, sleeping in the same bed), but not some others (primarily sex, I'd feel like a hooker.) And that's how it has been for a month or so.

S13 and H left on Sunday morning to go to boy scout camp. H would call or text occasionally and I would respond pleasantly, though I never initiated myself. We've also done several things as a couple with family and friends. I've been pleasant and cordial as H has insisted upon, though it all seems rather sterile and rote to me, like we're just going through the motions, but I figured it was fine for H since he asked for it.

He came home from camp last night (son stays until Fri night.) He told me about his experiences and updated me on some people he knows, told me a joke he heard, etc. He asked if I wanted to do something, I said I just figured he'd have things he needed to do to catch up on since he was gone for 4 days and was working frantically until just before he left. And he did do a few things, and I continued doing the things I was doing, pausing if he had something he wanted to talk about. I even threw in a topic of an article I read about the huge amount of environmental waste that has accumulated on Mt. Everest from all the climbers over the years, in order to contribute to his need for fru-fru conversation. Since I've been letting him lead all this, I assumed it was good for him.

About 10pm, he asked if there was anything we should talk about regarding our R. The convo took about 45 minutes, with long slient pauses between my saying something and H responding, with H even falling asleep at one point. It went something like this:
CV: No, we said we weren't going to have any more of those conversations. They weren't productive.
(pause)
H: There has to be a way for them to be more productive.
CV: Well I don't know how. Do you?
(pause)
H: Well I may be too incompetent to bring them up, but I know we need to have them.
CV: I wasn't commenting on your not ever initiating. Even when they were initiated by me, they weren't productive.
(pause)
H: Well I think you need them.
CV: No, I don't. I think I've evidenced that.
(pause)
H: Well I want to feel more connected.
CV: I'm trying to meet your stated needs. Was I receptive to your chit-chat when you got home?
H: Yes.
CV: Do I have a pleasant attitude?
H: Yes.
CV: I purposely didn't schedule anything for you tonight, feeling like you might have some things you needed to do, or simply to veg in the air-conditioning and catch up on some TV. Was there anything wrong in my thinking?
H: No.
(H falls asleep, eventually his phone wakes him up)
H: Well I just want to feel closer to my W.
CV: I hear you, and I'm not ignoring what you're saying. But I can't control how you "feel." What do you need for me to "do."
(pause)
H: I'm tired, I think I'll go to bed.
CV: I'm sure you are tired. Hopefully you'll sleep better tonight than you did camping.
H: I'm sure I will.
CV: Good night, I'll be up in a bit.

So I have mixed emotions on this. First, I'm thrilled that I didn't get sucked into the old R discussion. I'm thrilled that I simply continued what I was doing during H's 5 or 10-minute pauses, rather that fill the gap with conversation regarding MY thoughts on the matter. I'm thrilled that HE is feeling uncomfortable for a change, rather than it always being me, because if there is any hope for our M, he has to be motivated too. I genuinely wanted him to have a nice evening and a good night's sleep. And I wasn't bothered at all when he left the discussion without answering my questions. All really great things.

The mixed emotion comes in with my not being bothered at all when he left the discussion without answering my question, and what it means exactly that I'm not bothered. Yes, I'm detached. That should be a good thing, because I can't do what my H can't tell me and I certainly don't need to own his issue. But rather, is it just that I'm fully entrenched in my exit plan and I simply don't care to do more for him anyway and this gets me off the hook?

As part of my changes, I'm going to not really even think about it. I can't answer it for H, and I'm not throwing out my exit plan, so dwelling on it would be a waste of time anyway. If anyone comments to my post, I'll consider it but I'm not going to dwell.

[Crazyville]

I stole this quote from AnotherStander. I loved it, didn't want to lose it, so I'm just posting it here.

"I'll never know. And you won't either. So do what I did- QUIT ASKING! Seriously, those questions will just eat you alive and you will NEVER get a satisfactory answer. We work on ourselves, we detach and GAL, we hold hope for saving our M's alive while preparing for life after M, and we set aside our need for answers. That's how we get through this."

[~ kd ~]

Sounds like things are going well and that what you are doing is working.

Keep doing it.

Be prepared for your H to start pursuing more.

[Soul.Searching]

I love that quote CV. One of the lessons I learnt was to "Let it be" That has been my motto most of this year. I had a lot of signs and synchronises associated with it. There were many things I felt I needed answers to. Once I learnt to "Let it be" things were so much calmer and peaceful.
The strange thing is, I got answers to some of the things months later. I wasn't looking, they just came when the time was right. The ironic thing is by the time the answers were shown to me, they didn't matter any more. I had already deemed them irrelevant.

I now believe, if you can't find the answer to a question, "let it be" If your meant to know the answer, it will be "shown" to you, usually when you least expect it. If the answer does not come, Maybe it's one we are not meant to know.

You sound great! keep it up.

[Soul.Searching]

* synchronicities

[Crazyville]

Well, bummer. Apparently H's saying "I just want to feel closer to my W" is just code word for "I want to have sex." I'm absolutely not up for sex with him right now. In fact, this explanation came about when I tried to talk with him about my discomfort with his other physical affections (PA). I just don't want him kissing on me or touching me at all right now. I know I can't talk to him in a way that he receives well, so instead I read some quotes from a Gary Smalley book of his, which provided instructions to a LBS about appropriate PA in a sitch like ours. H still didn't take it well. He said that my rejection of his PA negated everything I did for him the last month.

So I'm trying to figure out whether to keep on course or to chuck any of my own efforts. If they can be negated with the first need/expectation I throw into the mix, I don't see that they can be that valuable to him. On the other hand, if I keep it up, then at least I don't have to hear about it. Either way, my 5-year plan is still intact. Just a matter of choosing which artillery to fend off.

[HopefulStill]

CV,
How much time do you spend together (just the two of you) a week? It sounds like you have both developed independent lives from the start of your marriage.
While most men are ok with that, most women are not. Eventually, it's a recipe for divorce. It sounds like after two decades of a marriage where he could do what he wanted, he's suddenly being pressured to join a whole different kind of relationship- one where he actually has to participate. Men in his situation find this a very difficult adjustment, and push hard against it. I'm not saying its right, just pointing out what he feels he's up against.

It seems your husband wants closeness with you, but (in typical male troglodyte fashion) does not know how to string the words, and feelings, together to express this to you. I recommend that you spend as much time as possible alone with each other every week. Learn how to connect again.

I know, I know.....he won't, and he doesn't get it. He probably also has no idea how close to mentally divorced you are from him right now. Men don't get hints. We just don't. Two by fours work best to drive home your point - subtlety is only to be used to get points across to your female friends! The book you might want to throw at him is "his needs, her needs". It's written in a way that even thick headed men such as myself can understand. It may help him understand what your needs are that he isn't meeting, and what the consequences are if he does not.

I would forget your 5 year plan. If he doesn't read the book, or won't take action after reading it, separate from him. The condition for R should be only when he is ready to come back and commit to a marriage that you will BOTH be happy with.

[Crazyville]

Hi Hopeful, thanks for dropping by!

My 5-year plan is strictly for my son's sake. In fact, that's probably the only thing my H and I pretty strongly agree on, that we don't want him growing up in two houses living from a suitcase.

We do things separately for the most part because he has never been good about doing *my* activities with me. I used to invest my time and energy into his activities, thinking he would reciprocate. When he didn't, I stopped doing his activities with him. At this point, we really don't enjoy any of the same things. But then nor do I really enjoy his company anymore so it's not a problem for me that we don't do things together. He would still like me to tag along after him but I pass.

My H and I have already done a separation. We've already read His Needs, Her Needs (year 3 of our M). In fact, we have a virtual library of relationship books. H is good about buying them and carrying them around, though I'm not sure if he ever reads any of them. In any case, he doesn't apply them.

There's nothing sudden about our situation. I started insisting upon a reciprocal M years ago. Our problems/arguments have actually settled down in more recent years as I've pulled away. The 5-year plan used to be an 8-year plan 3 years ago. Maybe the problems are just getting better for me because the end is getting closer and so I don't care as much.

One of the things I've read throughout the posts here on DB is that the LBS wishes their WAS would have said something, because they supposedly didn't have a clue until the WAS handed them D papers and walked out the door. Well I can say without a doubt that I HAVE told my H of the problems. If he claims he didn't know, then he'll be lying. The odd thing about our sitch in relation to the standard WAS scenario illustrated by Michele is that we've already exhausted all the avenues that are usually employed by the LBS to learn and implement changes (books, counselors, programs, etc.) Since none of them have helped us, I believe that when I leave, it really will be the end.

[HopefulStill]

Ouch! Sorry to hear all of that. Well, you can lead a horse to water......
I'm amazed at his (apparent) content to live in a loveless marriage. From your writing you appear to be an intelligent woman, so I believe it when you write that you have been clear with him.

Did your marriage start off like this, or was there a time when your husband met all of your needs?

[Crazyville]

I don't believe he's content to live in a loveless M.

My husband is a salesman, not by trade but by personality. We talked about EVERYTHING before we M'd. My H had all the right answers for everything. (In fact, I think he would be really good at speaking at M seminars, as long as he didn't need any personal references.) He will promise the sun, moon, and stars to get you to buy in. He was M'd before, so he told me all the things he learned from his first failed M, like "If you have a problem, then WE have a problem. You need to tell me if you have a problem."

Of course, I brought my own dysfunction to the M, primarily co-dependency. So it took be a while to realize how warped the R was. As I've gotten better, I've gotten less and less accepting of his approach (that the R is all about him.) I wouldn't say he's content to live in a loveless M. He tries very hard to get what he used to have, using criticism, guilt, judgment, anger, pouting, etc. It just doesn't work on me anymore.

He's an alright roommate. He just doesn't have the qualities I need in a H.

I just had an epiphany.... I've always described him as a salesman, but salesmen eventually deliver even if they've embellished it. I think, rather, H is actually a con-man.

[HopefulStill]

Hmmmm....
I seem to be out of ideas today. If a wife were that checked out, I think I could give her husband a good roadmap back to her heart. With a husband that checked out, however, I think that nothing short of his world crumbling will pull him off of his high perch. I wish that it wasn't so. I wish that, somehow, you could inject a healthy dose of empathy for your feelings into his brain. Alas, that injection has yet to be invented.

[Crazyville]

Thanks, Hopeful. It would be nice if there were that injection. I'm sure you would have some great advice. I think the books we read had some great advice, too. But you're right in that he has to be invested.

I simply find us completely incompatible. He's not a horrible guy, has a lot of nice qualities, should easily be able to find someone else that finds him attractive. I tried talking to him about the rationale for us staying M'd when we're both so unhappy, and why don't we just split amiably and go on about our separate lives? I explained that I don't have negative feelings for him, that I really wish him the best, that he has a lot of positive qualities, and that I want him to be happy, but it's just that he seems to be unwilling or unable to meet MY needs in this relationship, as I seem to be unable or unwilling to meet his. Call it irreconcilable differences. Why couldn't we just agree that it isn't working for either of us and part friends?

He is adamantly opposed. He says he would hate me if we D'd. He says he didn't invest 19 years just to walk away from it. I asked him what investment? It's not like he put me through college. It's not like he left his W and kids for me. It's not like he gave up his job and life and friends and moved across the country to follow me. Until the last 2 years, I've always earned more money than him. He plays golf, softball, surfs the net, watches tv. He'll clean or do (his) laundry, but it's not like he wouldn't have done all that anyway if he were single. He has put effort into raising our son, with boy scouts and homework and baseball, but it's not like he'll lose that. His investment in ME is almost nil (I can't actually think of anything, but I'm being generous.)

So simply, what is the big loss? What is the big "rejection" he refers to? What "investment"? When I asked him, he kept responding "time." Time, like a prison sentence? Then why would you want to stay?

[HopefulStill]

CV,

It's amazing how simple it can be to effectively meet someone's needs when one knows what they are. It seems that you have spelled out your needs, and unless I'm missing something, they seem like the needs that most women would have. Unfortunately, simple or not, meeting someone's needs still requires both thought and action. It sounds like he wants to guilt/shame/force you into staying the wife you were for the first 17 years of your marriage rather than change. He has an outdated picture of what a marriage is. He does not see that marriage is a partnership, where you both have equal voices and decisions are made so that you are both happy. He wants to go back to where he makes himself happy, and you're just happy to be there basking in and facilitating his happiness .

I wonder what he would say he brings to the table in your (or any) marriage besides a paycheck?

[Crazyville]

I agree, he wants what he used to have and I flat-out refuse to go there again. You have him pegged pretty accurately from my perspective, but he would adamantly disagree.

I wonder what he would say he brings to the table in your (or any) marriage besides a paycheck?

I can probably answer this, because I've asked him a hundred times over the years.

First, I get a long silence. Oftentimes, he says he'll have to get back to me. If I really push for an answer right then, he gets snarky, so I don't really get positive feedback. When he has taken time to put together a list for me, it's so far from reality I can't even respond. It's his "salesman/con-man" role at its finest.

He has a very inflated value of self-worth, at least based upon his visible output. He expects me to glean great value merely from the fact that he "showed up."

[HopefulStill]

Hey, I have a sister like this! She has a personality disorder........
She has an inflated sense of self worth, demands respect when she doesn't give it and only sees her side of any arguement (everyone else is being "selfish" LOL).

I haven't gotten anywhere with her in the 43 years she's been around, hope you have better luck with your H!

[Crazyville]

I'm doing well focusing on my issues, reading books that are directed to women and self-help, etc. I'm not expecting anything from H, just trying to co-exist nicely. We still have some negative interactions, though, because H still wants things from me that I'm not up to providing him.

So we had another odd exchange today. I just have to note this somewhere and maybe mull over it again later. Right now, it's just too odd.
H: .... and you won't let me garden with you.
CV: I haven't wanted you to garden with me for over 10 years, I don't understand why you're still bringing it up. And I don't understand how you think it's supposed to work. For example, if two people are doing something together, and person A does something offensive to person B, and person B asks person A to stop but person A continues to do it anyway, it makes the interaction un-enjoyable for person B. In your mind, what happens next?
H: Well person B would probably stop that interaction with person A.
CV: That's what I would expect as well. But then why do you expect something different in regards to my gardening with you?
H: (long silence)
CV: H?
H: I only answered that way because that's what would happen in a perfect world.
CV: (huh?) Okay, and how would answer it for the "real" world, since we don't live in a perfect world.
H: In the real world, people forgive each other over and over and still manage to have a loving R.
CV: (huh?) If that's the "real" world, then how do you explain the fact that 50% of M's end in D?
H: They're not living in the real world.
CV: (huh?!) What world are they living in?

At this point, H stopped talking. I suspect he started hearing himself and realized that he wasn't making sense. But before then, he appeared dead-serious. He never came back later to explain what he was saying, or even to suggest that he was only joking. He was not smoking or drinking. It was one of the oddest conversations I've had with him.

[StubbornDyke]

CV, It's really easy to get hung up on the logical inconsistencies, but when you do that you are effectively changing the subject of the conversation. If I were to guess, I would guess that's why H gives up and shuts up. You speak to him like a lawyer, with all focus on the words and logic. That's an R killer.

How about if you pretend to put some cotton in your ears? Just enough so you can't decipher the words. Then you'd have to focus on the true subject of the conversation - the feelings that H is trying to convey. Just figure them out, observe, and acknowledge them. That's all. No fixing or explaining. Let that be the point of the conversation.

Just for a while, practice responding like a T rather than a lawyer. See if it offers any insights.

By the way, I have a new housemate who I'm much happier with. Still, she does annoying things, some pretty similar to the housemate I found so maddening. I'm having to look hard at how I approach things and how I respond. I arrived home after one particularly stressful week on the road and immediately was livid about half a dozen things.

Bottom line is it's all about me. If I don't do the (uncomfortable, hard for me) work on my end, then every single person in my space will drive me nuts sooner or later. I keep asking myself if things could have been different and if I booted the former housemate for good enough reasons. Good enough or not, the reasons I didn't want to continue were that a) I didn't want to do all the hard work of taking care of myself and setting boundaries (lame and immature, but I'm just being honest) and b) I wasn't able to tolerate his limitations (shows a lack of compassion, perhaps, and I like to think I'd try harder for a more meaningful R). Anyway, I'm seeing more clearly than ever that my dissatisfaction was all about how I chose to see things and respond.

[Crazyville]

Hi SD! It's good to hear from you! I hadn't seen a recent thread of yours so I really appreciate the update. And your comments about your new roommate intrigue me. I've really respected your efforts and self-reflection in the past and know that you didn't just toss your old RM out without serious consideration, so I'm curious about the course you're currently on. I believe I recall some very specific things regarding your old RM that would have been unacceptable to me too, AND, I wouldn't even want to change my perspective of it being unacceptable. Perhaps that's because I've worked hard to define boundaries and hold on to them, and any back-tracking or dropping of boundaries I've already established seems like teetering on a slippery slope. I don't know when it's appropriate to hold firm or when to question it. It's not like there's a rule book. For example, some women find it unacceptable to be slapped by their H; others will stick around after being beaten badly enough to be hospitalized. Sometimes, it's the same woman, just a different time in her life. Somewhere along the way, she went from knowing it was wrong to accepting it, perhaps even blaming herself. Clearly, at some point, she decided that her "dissatisfaction was all about how (she) chose to see things and respond." She's being truly compassionate (staying with him, not pressing charges, etc.), but I don't believe it's good. So where's the line? Where does it change from good to bad?

To my conversation with H, I would love to know what it should have looked like. I've been told I have the "lawyer" thing before; I'm not a lawyer, but I'm definitely logically driven, so I don't really know how to think any other way and I could easily believe that it would show in my conversations. In this case, I don't want to garden with him. Period. I believe I should be allowed that boundary. I don't have any other personal/restricted interests. And it's not like I'm bar-hopping, I'm in the back yard, alone, dirty and sweaty. I invited him to join me the first 6 years of our M, and he acted like I asked him to eat worms, complete with the facial scrunch and everything. So I developed my interest as a lone person and stopped asking him. For a long time, he was perfectly happy that I stopped asking him; I would even describe him as "relieved." Then he started asking to join me about 10 years ago. I declined. Now he simply won't drop it, yet he has no interest in it on his own. It's not like he has his own corner of the yard that he manages, or spends his free-time browsing through garden catalogs and he simply wants to have someone to share with. It seems like he only wants it because he can't have it.

We do things together. We just finished biking with my BIL and SIL. Why is his gardening with me so important? And how would I ever find that out without asking him? And if I ask him and he says, "I don't know," (which is very common, BTW) does that mean I have to drop *my* position, simply because *he* wants to?

After he said, " ... and you won't let me garden with you," what is the appropriate thing to say next? What would a "non-lawyer" conversation look like?

[Thumpered]

Hi crazy, haven't caught all the way up yet with the thread but its an interesting read.

So I have to ask, what would be your 180 when it comes to gardening or being logical in your thinking? From what I gathered so far from the DB and DR books, its about doing the opposite of what you normally do? Im just trying to understand your difference in boundries and "doing something different" as the books say.

I'm certainly not gonna try to answer for your husband, but could it be he wants to garden so you have a connection together?
Could this be him "reaching"?

I certainly understand thinking logical, im that way myself, but so far this has been anything but logical. In response to your "non-lawyer" question, how about, "Why don't we give you a small area to work yourself, and if you need help I'll answer any questions you have, or help anyway I can".

Heck I dunno, im reaching myself here. lol

[Crazyville]

Hi, T. Thanks for dropping in! Gardening is my GAL, so it's already a 180 since I used to put it aside to do H's activities.

LOL! -- I don't have a clue how to do a 180 on logical thinking!

I've offered him an area for him to garden before. He doesn't really want to garden. He says he wants to do it "with me." I've agreed to his joining me in the past, and then he spends the whole time complaining and trying to rush me to get finished, so that I'll be free to go do "his" thing with him. That behavior from him makes me want to do it without him.

I've looked into your thread a bit. I read that you've been at this for 4 months, and I know that must seem like an eternity. There are certainly things you can do for yourself to make it less painful, but there's little you can do to make it shorter. It takes time, and lots of it. I hope you can find it in yourself to muster the endurance (marathon vs. sprint) because I don't remember anyone here having a magic bullet.

[oldtimer]

CV,

Frankly, I wouldn't describe your side of the conversation as "logical." I would describe your side of the conversation as containing a lot of case building statements, red-herrings, and blame/punishing statements all consciously or otherwise thrown at H to make him a living dart board. Yep, that's how it seems to me. This is the second conversation you've described in which you seem to me to mask cruelty and coldness with purported superior rationality and keen argumentative skills. However, your success in shutting down H comes from your rhetorical, rather than logical strengths. The two are distinct. Rush Limbaugh parades around as if he is a master of rationality and is quite persuasive in his efforts. But his spew, though effective, merely has the power of rhetoric, rather than logic or rationality, behind it.


On the other hand, I really liked your H's remark: "In the real world, people forgive each other over and over and still manage to have a loving R." He is quite right. In the real world, successful, healthy relationships depend on repeated forgiveness and allowing people space to grow.

I couldn't post to you for several days because (1) I was really, really sad to see you back to this sort of unhelpful posturing, and (2) I was at a loss as to what to say. Please take my remarks as criticism without judgment.


H: .... and you won't let me garden with you.
Alternative response: There are a lot of reasons, my feelings are all tangled about it. When you rejected my invitations to garden, I felt unloved and abandoned. I still feel that pain, but it comes out as spite and anger now. When we garden together now, I feel a ton of resentment. I feel used and manipulated when you garden with me and then want me to do something with what you. I want a partner genuinely engaged in gardening. When we garden together now, I feel controlled when you criticize how I do things. When you make suggestions, I hear them as criticisms. When I sense impatience from you, I feel anger and resentment. And, to be totally honest, I get an unhealthy feeling of pleasure and distorted satisfaction about turning you down. But, I feel bad about myself when I experience that too. So, whenever the whole gardening thing comes up, my overactive defense mechanisms go on autopilot and I shut down the conversation in a way that lets me feel superior and sends a few darts your way. It is effective for sure. But, it is not really healthy either. I feel bad and lost when that happens. So I scale up my superiority and shut things down faster. Thing is, it is really hard to stop this cycle. And, I'm spiraling backwards. Help, I love you, I hurt so much.

[Crazyville]

OT, thanks for coming back, all things considered. But just think, if I ever do "get it," imagine your sense of accomplishment!

I wish I could step outside of my body long enough to see what every one else seems to see so clearly. I believe it 100%, I just can't seem to get that perspective from within myself.

Your alternative response is pretty close to right on. The differences are irrelevant. I'm afraid that halfway through my saying that, H would have just heard, "blah... blah... blah... criticism... blah... blah... blah. superiority... blah... blah... blah... and shut down.

But pretending for one minute that I could turn back time and would have said that to H, he would have then asked, "What do you want me to do?"

How do I answer that? Especially in light of the paragraph that's all about "me"?

[Crazyville]

Regarding the "logic," I think this way.

CV has a hobby of gardening.
CV doesn't ask H to join her anymore.
CV has told H that she enjoys doing it alone and does not want H's participation, much like H and his golf.
CV has asked H to stop asking to join her.

To me, logic dictates that H shouldn't keep asking/complaining about gardening with CV.

Is that illogical?

Would it have been alright if I simply responded, "Yes, that's correct, I don't you to garden with me", and have that be the end of the discussion?

[Crazyville]

I wish I could edit existing posts rather than keep adding new posts....

Anyway, the reason I suggested this short response is that I realize he wasn't asking me why I don't let him garden with me. He knows why, he was just griping about the fact.

More on the logic: I went down the road I did because it seems illogical to me that he would keep griping about something I've specifically asked him not to bring up again, and still expect to get a positive response. It especially seems illogical to me to think that it's impossible to burn a bridge, even with your S, considering how many M's end in D. This is my "logic." This is what goes on in my head before I attempt to discuss it with my H. Are you telling me that isn't logical?

[~ kd ~]

I completely agree with OT.

I don't have anything to add as I have been down that road with you in the past.

I don't know what it will take, but perhaps finding successful couples in long term Ms might help you understand what it really does take to have a life long, happy M.

[Thumpered]

I read this entire thread finally, haven't got to any previous threads thou. But with what I've read, and I'm sorry if this sounds bad. What is the current situation? Is someone in a MLC here? Cause I can't figure out where this marriage is supposedly going and I don't want to guess. Do you know?

From reading the posts it seems very stuck, but with no direction and no hope. It's a very different read from the usual posts. At the start you seem happy if you both just realized you were incompatible? So thus I have to ask, are you trying to save your marriage? You seem content to let it die a slow death, I'm sorry if that comes off as crude or insensitive.

Again I'm sorry for my interpretation, but maybe you can tell me what your goals are now or how they've changed recently. What are you hoping to accomplish? If your original thoughts are still heavy on your mind, then why not just set your spouse free.

I guess your answers are not for me as much as they are for you to answer for yourself. I wish you the best, and hope the conclusions you come to will truly make you happy.

[Thumpered]

Btw love is not logical, it's spontaneous, unconditional, and unpredictable. That's what's so great about being in that place. It's freeing from the confines of life's routine.

[oldtimer]

CV,

"Your alternative response is pretty close to right on. The differences are irrelevant. I'm afraid that halfway through my saying that, H would have just heard, "blah... blah... blah... criticism... blah... blah... blah. superiority... blah... blah... blah... and shut down. "

So what? Why are you predicting and controlling his response? IF he were to respond in that manner, THEN you could respond in an authentic way: "H, I'm trying so hard to share my feelings and it is scary. It seems to me that you are checking out and I feel very abandoned by you and even more hopeless about our R."

Actually, there are lots of ways to try to change this. You could by a journal, label it "Conversation in our Marriage," and on page one write: "H, I'm lucky that you are better at forgiving than I am. Let me try our earlier conversation again. This is scary for me, and I find this way of sharing less threatening and it allows me to be less reactive."

Or you could email the same thing.

Or you could talk to him.

Suppose he replies: "What do you want me to do?"

That seems a very loving question. Why are you scared of it? How would you answer? How can he meet your needs if you don't know them yourself?

More important, is there anything he COULD do? Methinks not, or very little. The place to start is with you working to be in a healthier place out of denial.

As for logic, your misdirection tactics will not work with me. But, you might notice that your 50% argument works just as well for H as it does for you, which is not very well (logically speaking). Yet, I'd be much more attracted to and interested in a person who looked at what it took to make 50% of marriages healthy, loving, happy, vibrant partnerships than the one interested in exploiting the other side of the argument to stay stuck, withholding, and punishing.

"Would it have been alright if I simply responded, "Yes, that's correct, I don't you to garden with me", and have that be the end of the discussion?"

Sure, nothing wrong with acknowledging that you don't like to garden with him. I guess that could have been the end of the discussion, but why would you want to shut that down rather than exploring it further if he wanted to?

Try to get back to a humble place. It is the most healing place to be. Hugs.

[oldtimer]

FWIW, I'm an atheist. I don't think I've ever quoted scripture. But there is a reason the world religions inform morality and ethics: they all include deep insights worth paying attention to that help guide us toward better lives.

Maybe it would help to read these several interpretations of Corinthians 13, maybe just think about one a day, they have different emphases and offer different interpretations. All seem valuable.

http://christianity.about.com/od/prayersverses/qt/Love-Is-Patient-Love-Is-Kind.htm

[Crazyville]

"So what? Why are you predicting and controlling his response?"
Because it doesn't seem like there would be much value in talking to someone that's not listening, especially on something as sensitive as baring my soul like that.

"What can he do?"
He can stop bringing up the gardening. I've asked him to stop bringing it up, but he still does. It's a wound that hasn't been left alone long enough for it to heal.

"Sure, nothing wrong with acknowledging that you don't like to garden with him. I guess that could have been the end of the discussion, but why would you want to shut that down rather than exploring it further if he wanted to?"
Because there's nothing to explore. We've discussed it a thousand times before. I don't want to, I've explained to him why, I've asked him to stop bringing it up and (like the paragraph above) gone into deep personal explanation of why it hurts when he brings it up. Does the wound really need to be opened and dissected every time he brings it up again? Is there some value to it that I'm missing?

Humble. I'm going to have to do some reading on that because I can't imagine being more humble. Maybe I'm confusing depression and self-doubt and fear and confusion and a bunch of other things, but I'm virtually dysfunctional right now because I'm afraid of doing something else wrong. I was just looking up Asperger's and social filters because some of the feedback I get leads me to believe I'm not fit for social interaction. Even my questioning my own logic is interpreted as "misdirection tactics."

I'm missing something. Or everything. I'm beginning to feel like I should just have myself committed and be done with it. I'm starting to cry right now and my son is here and I don't want him to see it, so I'm going to signoff, for a while. I thank you for your attempts. I know you mean well. It's me, I accept that, I just can't seem to grasp what to do to fix it.

[oldtimer]

Try six meetings.

[StubbornDyke]

Hey CV. I'm on the road a buch these days and post (minimallly) in Surviving.

A few thoughts from your response to me...

First, I don't think it's compassion that allows someone to tolerate abuse. It may be based in fear, but it is essentially cowardice and cruelty. I believe it is the furthest thing from kindness to allow a dynamic where another person acts out their worst selves. From a spiritual perspective, it is not love, but rather abandonment, at best, and when engaging and egging them on it's more like enticement into damnation. Anyway, not compassionate at all, though one could try to take a logical path to that conclusion. That's a perfect argument for the limitations of logic.

I will point out that you used to want H to garden with you. You've since changed your mind. If you're allowed to change your mind, then you have to allow for the possibility of H changing his mind.

As for what non-lawyer conversation might look like, I found a short little book that I could wrap my logical brain around. It's called Non-Violent Communication. The focus is on identifying feelings and underlying needs, distinguishing between needs and strategies, taking good care of yourself, and getting what you want. Very simple concepts, simple implementation steps. Difficult to practice. Good brain exercise. It's by Marshall Rosenberg.

The non-lawyer convo might have you trying to pay attention to H's feelings and underlying needs (as well as your own).

H: You won't let me garden with you.

CV: Yes, I prefer to garden alone these days. You seem sad/angry/frustrated by this?

H: Yes!

CV: Because it's important to you to spend time together? You are missing having physical and emotional closeness?

H: ...

CV: I've been hurt and disappointed by our previous attempts to garden together. It's important to me to have [my garden time]/[time we spend together] be pleasant and relaxing. Would you be willing to ...?

Rosenberg says that people are only ever saying one of two things: "Please" or "Thank you". So, all of us, regardless of the words that come out, are either trying to express gratitude or ask for something. We are trying to get our needs met. Usually in very ineffective ways. MWD says, "Do what works." Rosenberg says the same and offers some steps that make it more likely that we'll be successful when we're asking for what we want. Interestingly, he's also adamant that we should not do things we don't want to.

I remember that when you came back from a visit with friends you were looking through a softer lens for a bit. It's hard to hang on to that, but you at least had a glimpse of it.

(((((((CV))))))))

[oldtimer]

Sounds like a great book SD, thanks!

CV, you are no more or less wholly responsible for your R problems than H. Be compassionate toward yourself.

Rather than trying to put it all on yourself or all on H, the healing of an R lies in partnership, shared ownership of the problems and shared work on the solutions.

[Thumpered]

Just wanted to stop by and say I was thinking about you again today CV. Hoping your finding your way, even if slowly, thru the sitch.

Good luck

[Accuray]

Hey old friend, just stopping by to say "hi" and hoping you're not too down. Looks like you've been through another tough round. I wish only happiness for you.

Acc

[oldtimer]

Hellooooooo

[Crazyville]

Hi, just a quick update. Thanks to those of you that have checked in on me. I've been busy and haven't been able to spend any time on the board and I've really missed checking in with many of you that I've followed for some time. I hope to have a little time this weekend to catch up with some of you.

Since last I posted, I've gone and gotten myself a full-time job outside of the house (plus my old job which had become part-time, plus still going to school.) I also have a 93yo gma that I love dearly that has been placed in hospice care, and I'm trying to spend as much time with her as possible before her illness robs her of her faculties first, and then life itself. And of course, DS13 is always involved in something, to which I try to tag along as much as possible.

The busy-ness has been a blessing and a curse for me, as it's taken my focus off of my R with H. So while I'm no longer consumed with trying to make it better, I find I just don't really care that much about it anymore and find myself investing in other people/things instead. With the limited spare time I have remaining, the last thing I want to do is engage with H. And though I haven't done anything untoward at work or school, I can definitely understand how A's happen. When you spend a bunch of time with someone else, someone that treats you with respect and courtesy, and then only have a small amount of time each week to spend with a S who doesn't treat you well, I don't know how an A can be avoided. Even if you don't physically connect, I can see the mental/emotional connection happening without even trying. And when the heart and mind are invested elsewhere, what's left? So while I think it's really unfortunate and sad, I'm also feeling like it's just inevitable. And that goes for either one of us, as I realize it's just as likely if not moreso for H.

Ironically, while I have a busier schedule, I'm finding that I'm more effective in the time that I do have than I was when I had more of it. Sort of a matter of necessity, I guess. I'm finding the "me" that I used to be before getting caught up in the workings of a bad M. Several factors have contributed, I'm sure. The job search was quite flattering, with two interviews and two offers in the first week of putting my resume out. The respect I receive from my co-workers is wonderful. And of course the paycheck! Even the drive to work is enjoyable. While working from home had its benefits, the isolation for me had become a very bad thing. Getting out of the house and back into a corporate office environment has probably been the best thing for me as a person. And will probably turn out to be the worst thing for my M. But if that's the case, so be it; I'd rather sacrifice my M than lose me again.

[Accuray]

Nice to hear from you CV, and glad you are finding happiness in all you have going on.

Yes, the A dynamic is no mystery. Chris Rock said "A man is only as faithful as his options" which I think can apply equally to men and women if they are dissatisfied with their marriage.

Ideally the best path is either fix your marriage or get out of it before starting with someone new, but that's a scary prospect that involves lots of fear and risk, so it seems an OP on the side is just so much easier, particularly since it often starts very innocently.

That said, I think these side relationships that can seem wonderful at first inevitably come with a large helping of guilt and misery and probably usually end up that way too.

All stuff I'm sure you know -- good to hear from you.

Acc

[Crazyville]

Hey Acc! Glad to hear from you! I went to check on you, but it seems you're so good about posting to others and haven't had your own thread in a while. I went with "no news is good news." I hope that's true in your case anyway.

I know what you mean about A's being ugly. I'm not sure anyone advises them, even less actually plan them. I think they're like middle-age spread -- you have to make a concerted effort to prevent it from happening. Otherwise, sitting on your laurels thinking it will never happen to you is the next-best-thing to a guarantee that it will. It's unfortunate that they don't all turn out bad like you indicated. That might help to squelch the illusion for some.