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Posted By: BigJohn Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 06/09/09 12:02 AM
Ladies,

My wife is a borderline WAW and I really need some feedback from those who have been in my wife's shoes. I just finished reading "His Needs, Her Needs" by Willard Harley and have realized I have really neglected many of my wife's basic needs, especially conversation, affection and family commitment. Not that I haven't contributed in these areas, but not nearly enough as I should have. As I have noted in previous posts, her current position is "I'm done"(emotionally exhausted), she dreads thinking about a future with me (she cries when thinking about opening her heart up to me again) and will not give up OM in a deep EA. She is very detached from me right now in all aspects and has expressed a strong interest in divorcing, perhaps "within the next year" as we can not afford to physically separate right now due to financial reasons.

She has spoken of ideally getting remarried to OM in the near future, however OM lives in another state and I will not agree to have her relocate with my kids, nor will he relocate to our state (this is my understanding)if we divorce. Therefore my wife has told both OM and me that she will find someone else after leaving me if OM won't wait/ relocate/ or he becomes unavailable in order to have her needs met.

We currently do not have health insurance, so I am paying OOP for weekly counseling (only I go now) and can't afford anti-depressants. So, I am just now starting to get a handle on all of my emotions after much previous arguing/debating(logical thinking)along with pleading and pursuing.

I am currently giving her "space" and limiting my contact with her but don't think LRT is going to be effective with her given our particular sitch. I am also doing some 180 behaviors, working out at the gym and spending more time with the kids. I'd like to implement some of Harley's techniques to refill my "love bank" account with her- (some marriage counselors suggest competing head on with the OM)- however they seem mostly dependent on a willing spouse, which she is mostly not.

I know that I am in a particularly bad situation with my wife. I guess what I am looking for from you both in particular is ideas on developing the best strategy to possibly win back my wife- get her to stop all contact with the OM and reconsider our marriage relationship (don't know in which order that might happen). I realize that many of the changes I need to make and the things I need to do must be implemented as soon as possible and/or all at once if possible. Given my circumstances, what should be my priorities in terms of changes/things to work on?

(Yes, I know that generally speaking I need to focus right now on me and the kids. I am also frustrated in recognizing my own need to detach from her in order to think clearly myself, control my emotions and preserve some feelings for her during this crisis.)

Any advice/feedback would be greatly appreciated!
Posted By: Kittyfish Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 06/12/09 05:39 PM
My opinion is that you cannot work on recovery with OM in the picture- she will not be receptive to it.

Do you think she would agree to put a stop to her relationship with OM for a period of time? 30 or 60 days? Do you think she would fill out the EN questionaires from Harley??
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 06/12/09 07:44 PM
Originally Posted By: Kittyfish
My opinion is that you cannot work on recovery with OM in the picture- she will not be receptive to it.

Do you think she would agree to put a stop to her relationship with OM for a period of time? 30 or 60 days? Do you think she would fill out the EN questionaires from Harley??


Kitty,

Thank you so much for responding. I really value your perspective and feel that feedback from gals like you and Sandi could really help me get a handle on my sitch.

To answer your question, no, she refuses to stop contact with the OM. She claims to have tried 2 times previously in April and May to stop contact with the OM and that in each instance those attempts lasted about three weeks. However, she later revealed that she had occasionally texted the OM during the 3 week periods "to check in on him". Regrettably it was during those times that I was still grappling mightily with getting my own emotions under control and slid back once or twice into R talk with her.

After the last R talk, we agreed to try again. I gave her 1 1/2 weeks of "space", being very laid back, friendly, etc. while under the impression she was backing off contacting OM. Did a backslide after finding out she had not kept the agreement to no contact with OM after about 4 days into it. We argued and she said that during the "break", she had had more time to think clearly and had determined yet again she did not want to work on our marriage. We argued and that's when she mentioned her one year plan to stick around before separating/divorce.

As mentioned in my prior posts, there have been a few occasions where she has appeared to "snap out of it" momentarily to tell me, while crying, that she is afraid to open her heart back up to me only to be disappointed and "trapped again". Then the attitude ("the wall"?) comes back and it's game on again, telling me and everyone else that "people don't change", that even though I want to change now she doesn't care,(though she says she feels bad about feeling that way) and that she wants to marry the OM and start a new life. It's just crazy- everyone in her life who cares about her is telling her to drop the OM and give me and the kids another chance! She acknowledges this but doesn't give a damn- or so she says.

So it appears that I am on my own for now- I will need to do all the heavy lifting here. Any general ideas on what I can do right now? Any clues in my prior posts that might shed light on a particular course of action?
Posted By: Kittyfish Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 06/12/09 08:24 PM
What are your boundaries? Are you guys living together? Is she depending on you for financial support? Forgive me if I am missing something- I haven't had time to go back and research posts.

I wouldn't enable her affair by paying for her cell or computer time.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 06/13/09 12:05 AM
Originally Posted By: Kittyfish
What are your boundaries? Are you guys living together? Is she depending on you for financial support? Forgive me if I am missing something- I haven't had time to go back and research posts.

I wouldn't enable her affair by paying for her cell or computer time.


We are still living together and sleeping in the same bed, however no intimacy since shortly after discovery of the EA.

She has been out of work for 6 months and only recently got a part time job, so she has been totally dependent on me financially. Given the economy and our current financial situation, I anticipate this to be the case for some time.

I have not canceled her cell phone service, although doing so and smashing her damn I-Phone are both very tempting. Not sure if that would help my cause in the long run as one of her complaints is that I have some control issues (she can't seem to distinguish right now between a concerned husband and someone who is trying to act like her Dad).

I am trying to strike as best a balance as I can without enabling her in some way, shape or form. That's tough to do when she seems to have most of the control right now.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 06/18/09 12:16 AM
Hi Big John,

I am just now seeing your post or I would have stopped by. Glad you were smart to come to this DB board b/c I can tell you that is saved my sanity and my M.

Before going into a long post.....as I usually do.... blush.....I would like to ask you to clear something up for me, please. Why do you say that the LRT would not work on your W? What do you see the LRT as being?

I'll be anxious to hear from you.

Take care,
Sandi
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 06/19/09 06:04 AM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Hi Big John,

I am just now seeing your post or I would have stopped by. Glad you were smart to come to this DB board b/c I can tell you that is saved my sanity and my M.

Before going into a long post.....as I usually do.... blush.....I would like to ask you to clear something up for me, please. Why do you say that the LRT would not work on your W? What do you see the LRT as being?

I'll be anxious to hear from you.

Take care,
Sandi



Sandi,

It' great to hear from you! I have to apologize, I've also posted previously in WAS and Newcomers so if you would like additional history on my sitch, you might want to check out those earlier posts of mine.

Regarding LRT, I'm currently working on stopping the pursuing altogether. That's a tough one as I am a "fixer" by nature.

The GALing is tough as I'm limited to GAL due to my kids, plus there is the general complaint from her that I've been selfish in the past in pursuing only things that interest me and not necessarily her. So there is a concern with regards to playing right into her hands and validating her perception by GAL-ing. (I know, it really shouldn't matter what she thinks right now given the EA.)

Thirdly, I'm somewhat skeptical of any effect the LRT may have given how committed my wife currently is to the OM, the regular communication they have along with the apparent shared goal of the "one year to go before W files for divorce". That stated goal really bothers me in particular because it gives both of them a time line to work towards and prepare for a shared objective- it kinda takes the steam out of any LRT in my mind.

As of right now, I have only been able to go "quasi- dark" in two instances for approximately two weeks each before experiencing some backsliding. After the first backslide, my W remarked that this period was beneficial in that she could not "hate" me but that her mind had not changed. After the second backslide, my W commented that it was nice that we weren't arguing during this period but that her mind had not changed. She also commented on the awkwardness of having very limited physical and verbal contact. (I did not acknowledge this, but I too felt it very awkward.)

I realize that in reading some of the other posts that I'm probably just not being patient enough.

I'm looking forward to your feedback. Thanks!
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 06/20/09 02:08 AM
Hi Big John,

I went to Newcomers and read the post on that thread. I'm not trying to boss you but it helps to have your thread on one forum so people can find you easier. You can go to other people's post and reach out to them and ask them to stop by your thread. It helps to build up a support system faster. Of course, Newcomers is the most visited forum. The closer the forums are toward the bottom of the list, it seems the less people visit them.

Anyway, I hardly know where to start. It seems I have been down this path so many times the past couple of years, trying to help those who come here. I am in no way an expert and my stitch was somewhat different simply b/c of my age. I was told to stop referring to my age (lol) but it did seem unusual b/e there are so many that fall in the age bracket that you and your W are in. I suppose it goes to show that no matter how long a couple has been M or what age they are......anything can happen to threaten the happiness and security of a MR.

I was ignorant about the information on the false chemicals that rush to the brain in a person who is in MLC or a WAS (the two symptoms are so similar) and that they are craving those "in-love emotions" and once they get a taste of it, it is surely like a strong drug that is very addictive and the WAS/MLC will do almost anytbing to continue to get their "fix" for their drug of choice, which is an EA.......and could lead to a PA.

I try to think back to remember exactly the condition I was in at the time I was so deep in a "fog" that I could not function. My emotions were so eratic that they could change from hour to hour without any reason behind it. In short.....I was not the Sandi that everyone had known.....I did not even know myself any longer. I felt so confused and so lost.

As I read the posts from the WAH's on your other thread, I found it amazing, as always. I think the biggest problem for the LBH in the early stages of the WAW's symptoms is that he still expects her to act like her old self. He is still expecting her to think like she use to. It will not happen!! This is not your wife as you have known her. The sooner you realize that and begin to deal with the stitch in that manner, the better off you will be.

Then you have to realize that there is no "fixing her". You said you were a fixer by nature......well, most men are. A lot of women are fixers, also, b/c I am one of them and had to learn lots of hard lessons about trying to fix another human being......and that is you cannot fix somebody who doesn't "want" to be fixed...and especially by YOU!

You will be her main target for spewing her wrath and any other emotions built up within her. If you read Michelle's article on the WAW, then you are aware of the years this has been building and it did not just happen over night. You know that, don't you? You see, I find it amazing when I read the posts from some LBH's b/c they sound like they were such a great guy, and do not understand how on earth their W could even think of turning to another man to fill her emotional needs. Most of them will throw in the statement that they "weren't perfect....but" and then say it was no excuse for the W to have an EA. What would you constitute being a good excuse?

I am not pointing fingers at anyone, but I do find it a hard read to hear the statements that some LBH's make about WAW's. They call the WAW almost every name in the book without just coming out and spelling it. I try to put that down as anger and bitterness. WAW's are not the monsters that "some" people try to make them sound, but then not everyone is exactly alike. I found it astonishing that your W would open up and discuss her feelings for the OM so freely. But some W's do that with their H's. That makes me think that perhaps the two of you had a pretty good communication before the EA. Is that correct? If so, then that is why she is able to talk to you now.

A few WAW's have said they wanted their H's to fight for them, and I can understand that reason. However, others would only try to get farther away from the H. So, there is some differences and I don't think men can just lump them in one particul mold and say "this" is what every WAW looks like, sounds like, and acts like. It is true that there is what we call "script" when most of them say almost the same thing to their H's. There are similar symptoms that are shared, but still each case is individual b/c the woman herself is individual. We do not know your W, of course, and will have to rely on you to tell us about her. We need you to be as fair and open as you possibly can. Try to tell us about you and explain what you feel went wrong in the R. What do you feel that you did not supply that was an emotional need she had? Women do not turn to OM just for the heck of it. There has to be a reason that pushes them toward that point in their life. I know "some" women are natural flirts and have their eyes on the opposite sex when they have no business doing that. However, I don't recall reading any LBH's thread who said that about "his" WAW. Isn't that strange? So that makes me think that there has to be something that makes her turn to another man to supply her needs. Why wouldn't she turn to the man she is M to? What would stop her from doing that after sharing so many years with him and having children with him? What do you think?

In talking about the LRT on this thread, I did not remember you pointing that out on the other in Newcomers. Maybe I missed it. I do strongly suggest that you not pursue your W. You said something about not giving that up yet. In "most" cases, WAW's do not want the H to pursue. She feels that it is way too late for that. She even gets mad if she sees him trying b/c she "wanted" him to do all those things in the past and he wouldn't......now she resents him for doing it and it turns her off. The more you pursue, the farther away you drive her.

I have used this illustration before and hope you will bear with me as I do share it again on your thread. Women are life flowers. If given the proper care, they thrive and very beautiful. However, if neglected, they dry up and die. I don't know of a truer comparrison to a woman in a happy MR from one in an unhappy M. Females have a lot of emotional needs and they want those needs met by a man. When the man thinks he is being a great H b/c he is working so hard for his W and kids, the W is just wanting him home with her to pay some attention to her and spend quality time. He puts in long hours thinking he is doing a wonderful job, but he is really neglecting the flower and she will wither an die emotionally. When she feels like she is withering away on the inside.....she goes into a panic mode and that is when she gets into trouble. Sometimes, maybe she has not felt the suge of "panic" and she is trying hard to maintain her feelings toward her H, when along comes what appears to be a Knight in Shinning Armour. He knows all the right things to say to her to make her feel young and sexy and beautiful again. She feels more alive than she has in years! There is an excitement in her that she can't explain but she doesn't want it to ever leave. She looks at her R with her H and thinks she was emotionally dead and now she feels as if life is flowing in her veins and she even feels a certain sexual energy that surprises her. She is like a silly teenage girl again. I could go on, but you get the picture.

The opposite side of that coin is her other mood. The one that causes a lot of confusion and guilt. She knows what she is doing is not right, so she has to hide her R with OM. She may even lie to herself in the beginning.....telling herself that they are "just friends" and she needs somebody to talk to, etc. But she quickly feels herself drowning and being drawn into a deeper level. She tries to continue going through her daily responsibilities and keep her R with her family on even keel, but she finds out that she isn't able to be like she once was. She has to "cover up" the new feelings she is discovering and that gets difficult and it becomes frustrating and thereby causing her to act rather crazy at times. Remember, I am not condoning what she does......I'm just trying to quickly paint a picture of what we refer to the typical WAW.

Her feelings, mood, actions.....everything intensifies as the EA progresses. She may not even admit that it is an emotional affair. But at some point she must face facts. She will try to justify her reasons by blaming her negligent H and all the faults he has had since day one. Her mind becomes very "fogged" and it is hard to think normally. As she recalls events down through years, she begins to tell it differently than it actually happened. That is what is called "rewriting history". In her mind, that is how it happend......plus she is still trying to justify what she is doing in an EA.

The OM could be anybody. A long lost boyfriend, a coworker, a new neighbor, or a man over the Internet. He finds it to be quite the ego booster to receive female attention and many men play on the woman's emotions to get them into bed or just for the fun of it. There are some who are as mixed up as she is and will convince her that they have a future together. So, it varies about the OM.

She reaches a place that she feels pressured to make a decision about her R with her H and the OM. That is when things really start popping. The sad thing is that by the time the H figures out something is not quite right in his M any longer......she is well into the EA and so fogged out that she is lost. Some men have not figured out that anything was wrong and their W would have to just say the words and tell him that she was "in love" with OM. Of course she isn't, but she "believes" she is due to those false chemicals flooding her brain. It is such a "feel good" drug that she fantasizes about her life with OM and how everything will be so lovely. she is unrealistic in everything about OM and a future. Nobody can make her "see" the facts as they really are. In many, many cases it is the "fantasy" that has her hooked. The OM is nothing like she has him pictured in her fantasy. However, she does not see it and will not believe it until a lot of time has passed and eventually something transpires that helps to open her eyes just a little bit. As more time goes by, she will start to realize her Knight is not what she thought he was. It really help the stitch if he does something really bad to her.......like mess with another woman or something or dumps her. Although, as you said about your W, the OM told her not to contact him again.....and it just made her want him more.

That is part of the "point" right there. She wants what is not available to her. He is not somebody she should have and that makes her want him even more. That is why often times it takes the two being together for her to discover he isn't what he appeared or that she fantasized him to be.

The DB technique of "dropping the rope" is the best way (I think) for most H's to handle a W in an EA. You become uninsterested in her. You become detached emotionally from her. You become unavailable to her. When she begins to notice this....then you become "attractive" to her b/c she thinks she can't have you. That makes you more interesting and she has a desire to pursue you. Not every case works that way b/c it takes so long that a lot of H's gives up or mess up to the point of destroying any hope of a future. Some W's walk away from the M and go to the OM and then really screw their life up! The sad thing is that one day she wakes up to discover what a mess she has made of everything and then it is usually too late. Again, this doesn't happen in every case, but a lot. It is discouraging to say the least, but she according to your dates, she is still early in this EA and I may be crazy, but I think you should drop the rope and follow the principles the DR book gives. I think that would be your only chance in saving the M. She is not well emotionally. But you cannot make her go to a counselor or pastor or anybody she doesn't want to. She has to see for herself that she needs help. As long as she thinks the marriage breakdown is your fault and she is clinging to the hope of being with OM someday......it isn't good. I will continue along these lines at a latter time.

There is one other thing I want to touch on. This term of going "dark" is not being used properly. Call it my pet peeve but somebody started using it the wrong way and it was picked up by posters and spread all through this board. Going dark can only be applied properly when the two people are physically separated and they do not make contact with each other. The principle behind that is for the LBS to make many improvements so that after a certain amount of time has passed and the WAS just happens to run into them some place....the WAS will be attracted to the LBS by seeing the vast changes. By running into the LBS from time to time, the WAS begins to warm up to him/her and slowly the R gets back on track. What you are talking about is not going dark. How on earth can a man go dark when his wife is sleeping in the same bed? You can however, detach emotionally from her. Trying to act as if you are going dark only makes you appear to be moody. That causes the R to be more stessed b/c she does not understand and misreads your actions. So, pull back and detach yourself emotionally but do not act cold the way going dark would do when trying to live under the same roof. I wish people here would stop using that term!!

Anyway......I have to stop, but do read the part of DB about dropping the rope in the M and be sure you understand it b/c if not applied correctly, it won't work.

I'll talk to you later.

Sandi


Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 06/21/09 09:29 PM
Well Big John.....did I blow you out of the pool?
Posted By: Thinker Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 06/22/09 02:23 AM
Hi BigJohn,

Just wanted to let you know you are not alone. I am in an almost identical sitch - just probably 5 months further along.

Sandi has really helped me a ton. I wish I could tell you a success story, but and maybe in a way it is. My W are still living together - same bed with no physical contact. We are still talking to one another, etc. and the many-times-per-day contact with the OM has dropped to an occasional attempt by my W to rekindle things.

On the other hand, the overall level of intimacy has dropped from some to none, and my W still wants to separate.

It has been long and hard, so I can give you a few pieces of advice.
- Take care of yourself. Do what it takes to really make you happy independent of your Wife, because for a while, that is what you will have to be.

- Be prepared for a long period in limbo with no end in site. Research the Stockdale paradox - if you get optimistic that you can fix this by (some future date), you will fail.

- Realize, admit, and accept your true situation. In my case, it was really admitting that the romantic love that I had with my W is dead and gone - I can't rekindle it by being romantic. I shouldn't look for signs that it is coming back, etc. I had to let it go.

- Detach - this is the hardest thing to understand and to do, but you'll know it when you get there. At some point you will stop caring what your W is doing and whether you are going to get back together. You won't take what she is doing personally. You will know that you are going to be OK and can move on. Only at this point can you really stop pursuing, and only at this point will the power balance in your relationship switch so that your W starts becoming interested again.

Listen to Sandi and Kittifish. They know what they are talking about and give good advice.

Good Luck. We are all here for you.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 06/22/09 06:27 AM
Originally Posted By: Thinker
Hi BigJohn,

Just wanted to let you know you are not alone. I am in an almost identical sitch - just probably 5 months further along.

Sandi has really helped me a ton. I wish I could tell you a success story, but and maybe in a way it is. My W are still living together - same bed with no physical contact. We are still talking to one another, etc. and the many-times-per-day contact with the OM has dropped to an occasional attempt by my W to rekindle things.

On the other hand, the overall level of intimacy has dropped from some to none, and my W still wants to separate.

It has been long and hard, so I can give you a few pieces of advice.
- Take care of yourself. Do what it takes to really make you happy independent of your Wife, because for a while, that is what you will have to be.

- Be prepared for a long period in limbo with no end in site. Research the Stockdale paradox - if you get optimistic that you can fix this by (some future date), you will fail.

- Realize, admit, and accept your true situation. In my case, it was really admitting that the romantic love that I had with my W is dead and gone - I can't rekindle it by being romantic. I shouldn't look for signs that it is coming back, etc. I had to let it go.

- Detach - this is the hardest thing to understand and to do, but you'll know it when you get there. At some point you will stop caring what your W is doing and whether you are going to get back together. You won't take what she is doing personally. You will know that you are going to be OK and can move on. Only at this point can you really stop pursuing, and only at this point will the power balance in your relationship switch so that your W starts becoming interested again.

Listen to Sandi and Kittifish. They know what they are talking about and give good advice.

Good Luck. We are all here for you.


Thinker,

Thank you for the encouraging words. I just read some of your posts and it is amazing how similar you and I are. I appreciate your dedication, but I have to admit it sure is discouraging thinking that I too may need to let go of any prospect that I may not regain my wife's feelings of romantic love for me (along with any other feelings), at least for a long time. I guess I should feel that as long as she is still here to demonstrate the lack of romantic love for me, it's better than the alternative- her not being with me at all. But then again, for me the question becomes is that really any way to live? And for how long do you put up with it before determining enough is enough?

I don't yet know what my real thresholds are with regards to not going without ANY affection, ANY sex, ANY (or very little)signs of respect from her or anything else a good husband can expect from his wife. I'm concerned not only about the potential damage to my self-respect but also the preservation of any feelings for my wife when her EA is either over or we separate/divorce, because at some point, she is going to need my compassion, one way or the other.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 06/22/09 07:53 AM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Well Big John.....did I blow you out of the pool?


No Sandi, not at all. Thanks for the feedback. I agree that detaching in my sitch is probably the best move to make, that and "dropping the rope". I will work on those two objectives.
For now, a little update:

Last Friday night, just my wife and D3 were home, so we went out to dinner. Almost immediately, W tries and succeeds in baiting me into an argument. Details aren't important, other than she demonstrated a real coldness towards my feelings. During the argument, she disclosed plans to travel out of state near the end of August to visit her parents with the kids for two weeks. She disclosed that she planned to go on "dates" with the OM while there. This led to objections from me, followed by the fact that we really can't afford her to take this vacation (which is true), to the fact that this whole affair is affecting my job performance (if I lose my job we will be screwed big time), that our savings continues to dwindle while she remains underemployed, etc. She just acted like she doesn't give a damn about any of it- it is collectively "my problem".

Later into the R talk, which dealt with the financial implications of divorce along with the impact it will have on the kids, she told me "Don't you get it? I've told you ten times before that it's over, our marriage is over for good, you just can't seem to accept it." She reiterated her anger with me over contact I had initially with her parents about a month and a half ago regarding our problems- I know, not good, but at the time I did not have a handle on my emotions and was truly looking for emotional support- and accused me of "kissing a**". She also told me that her mother- who was originally very supportive and upset over my W's EA- has now come around to my W's view that the EA is "not really an affair", that I'm unfairly characterizing the EA as an affair (a real affair is a PA) and am basically acting like a jerk for suggesting it. (BTW, I have not had any further contact with my MIL since.) Further, her mother now supports her coming home for a vacation and doesn't think that it's going to be a problem even though OM lives 10 minutes from my in-laws house. Unbelieveable.

Add to this other evidence that several members of my wife's family (some of whom I have not spoken to since the EA began) seem to now be joining my wife in derisively speaking about my feelings and sincerity behind my back really is getting me discouraged. (BTW, I should mention that there are 7 kids in my wife's family, 5 of whom have been married already and 3 of those who have been divorced. My wife will/may be the 4th child to divorce.) So to use Dr. Harley's terminology, the "friends of our marriage" may be starting to dwindle right now, including people on my side of the family.

Adding to all of this is the fact that my two sons, particularly my younger son, are really starting to get negatively impacted by the dynamics of the sitch. Most recently, while I was out of the house, my son hit my wife, told her he was angry with her for "cheating on Daddy" and "wanting to break up the family". My son further told my wife that he wanted to kill her with a knife while she slept to which my W responded by cracking him in the face with a towel. (My wife is normally a passive person- this was out of character for her. Apparently my son had overheard an earlier argument between my W and I). So I am really getting concerned for my sons and will be taking them with me to counseling this week.

At the end of the above R conversation, my W told me that she had determined that she could not bear going without contact with the OM for more than two weeks without constantly pining for him, viewing him as "perfect" and wanting him more than anything else in the world. She further stated that she had discovered that by having brief daily contact with the OM, she could "regulate" her feelings for him and see some of his flaws. No, she doesn't see this as a problem, or indicative of an addictive habit/behavior- despite the fact that she is an RN by profession. And no, she refuses to stop all contact with the OM.

Several members of my family are concerned about the impact my sitch is having on my job and more importantly on my kids. They were originally somewhat supportive of my DBing, however given the above feel that it is becoming more unrealistic. They are encouraging me to go on the offensive and gain control of the sitch before things get further out of hand and no, I'm not talking about just establishing some concrete boundaries with my wife. Looking for some feedback regarding the above. Sandi your thoughts?
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 06/22/09 11:07 AM
Hi Big John,

It concerns me that you are seeing the technique of "detaching" as an option to choose whereas it really is the only thing to do if you are going to survive your W's A, or if this R stands a chance. I don't think you get it.... really, that you can not fix her. I believe that is the first step Big John has to make in this stitch! Back off and leave her alone and stop interfering. Yes, that is exactly what I said b/c you see......that is how your W sees you in her life. She sees you trying to control her and interfer with "her" life. The WAS becomes very self-centered and therefore the LBS must become self-centered to a degree or he/she will not survive this crises.

I do not understand why so many people know about her A. Who told the kids, relatives, and friends? The more people who are informed and are offering their suggestions to your W, the worse it will make the stitch. If she is openly flaunting the A, then the kids and family have a right to know, but if it is an EA and has a chance of disolving before going to the next level, .......well no point in going there b/c they "do" know already so need to deal with facts here.

Quote:
(My wife is normally a passive person- this was out of character for her.


This is the other fact of life you must accept. She is not the same person as you have known all these years! She will not think, feel, or react the way she normally would. If you continue to think of her as being her normal self, you only sit yourself up for a bad situation. You have to stop it! You have to think of her as a stranger b/c you don't know how she is feeling and you sure don't know what to expect from her.

It is obvious by what she said to you that you are applying pressure b/c you are still pursuing (trying to fix) her and she is resisting it......and the more you press her....the farther she will run from you. Don't you see that? Listen, I saw a lot of posts from LBS on your other thread, and that is good, but you need to listen to us WAW's if you want to know how she feels in her gut right now. "This" almost WAW is telling you that if you do not drop the rope and leave her alone.....you've lost her for good.

I have the most loving man in the world, but when I was in an EA....."I" was not the only person who changed. I saw my H become somebody I never had seen before. I did not like him at all. He pursued and pressured and shamed me until I was ready to leave for that reason only......even if there had not been OM. When he finally stopped and left me alone, then I was able to do what I needed to do about the EA.

One other thing......about your son hitting your W. Do not stand for that. I don't care if she has slept with half the town! He has no right to hit his mother. She is still his mother regardless of what she has done. If he doesn't want to be around her and stays away, that's different, but he has no authority over her and you should not allow him to hit her. What if it had been some other man who hit her, would you have let that go? (Maybe you didn't and I missed it.) I'm just saying that LBH's can allow their pride and their anger to play out in ways that harm the M. People have different opinions about "exposing" the A.....and obviously in this case, it is too late about that. So, that will be another problem to add to the stitch and even if you and W work things out and reconcile, where does that leave her with her children? When the relatives and friends get together, how will the two of you feel? Won't it be uncomfortable wonder if other people's minds are on the A and "judging" her? If it were me in her position, I would want to run away from you, the kids and everyone that knows my intimate life. (Now that is how a WAW feels.) Not only does more people knowing about the A put pressure on her, but everything they say or "act" in some way to her to let her know their opinion of her.......the less chance your M can survive this stitch. You may not see her as "worthy" of protection b/c she got herself into this mess, but if you do not put an end to the way the son is treating her (and everyone else who is showing bad treatment) then you can wave good-bye to her. In a weird way, she still thinks you should protect her from those friends and family who would mistreat her. You detaching from her does not stop your responsibility as her H in taking care of basic things, like providing food, shelter, clothes, medicine, protection, etc. The "detaching" is the emotional and intimate R. You never appear to be angry, sulled, cold, etc. You maintain a positive outlook about your life. Don't act giddy or stupid trying to be upbeat......just be the opposite of what you probably feel right now.

I think what your son said to his mother is just awful! I hope you will stop that from happening again with him or anybody else that would treat her in that manner. Regardless of how you feel toward her at this moment, it is digging the M grave deeper by you not stepping up to protect her. This is not the same as "fixing" the R between you and her. This is completely different in the way "she" sees it. If you were there when it happen, and "if" you did nothing when the son treated her like that........then she lost a great deal of respect for you. I know, I know.......I know all the arguments about respect toward her, etc. But, I'm trying to tell you the POV from the WAW and if you want this M saved, then you have to listen to that POV.

I'll talk to you later.

Sandi
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 06/22/09 11:34 AM
I wanted to add another thought. I think if it were me in your place, I would stay away from having public family outings like the meal you tried to have with your W and child. B/c of the condition she is in, she apparently feels this urge to bait you into an argument. There could be several reasons behind that, but my first thought is to give her more justification in leaving you. She'll say you are so hard and unreasonable to live with! So, in detaching from her, become less available to her as well. (Being around her less.....is good.) That means avoid these types of outings.

When she starts a talk about OM, tell her you are not going to discuss it. Don't argue with her. If she says, "Why aren't you going to talk about it?"........just walk away. She knows why you are not discussing it! I promise you that no good will come out of a conversation about her and OM! Leave it alone.

Arguments about everything will be easy to fall into at this time. Expenses, the kids, what people say about her, etc. Everyone's feelings are "raw" and it is like sitting on a case of explosives. The more you are out of her sight, the better. When you are home, it would be best to do things with the children. Keep them involved in something with you. The more they are in their rooms alone and on the computer or cells or tech toys, the more withdrawn they will be toward both of you b/c they don't know how to deal. They need to see their dad strong and dealing with this stitch. Along with your R with them may come need for discipline of them and that goes back to how they treat their mother.

If things get uncomfortable at home, take them out for a treat or walk around the mall or bowling.......whatever they like to do. The age your older ones are, it is vitally important to spend one on one time with them.

Got to go,
Sandi



Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 06/22/09 04:26 PM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Hi Big John,

It concerns me that you are seeing the technique of "detaching" as an option to choose whereas it really is the only thing to do if you are going to survive your W's A, or if this R stands a chance. I don't think you get it.... really, that you can not fix her. I believe that is the first step Big John has to make in this stitch! Back off and leave her alone and stop interfering.


Sandi, I misspoke in my prior post, I agree that detaching is not an option, it is mandatory in my case. I'm starting to get a handle on my emotions but I'm finding it is almost equally challenging to fight my natural instinct to "fix" her and everything else. I am normally very aggressive at addressing problems in life when they come up- I don't let things snowball. I am trying hard although it is tough to fight the urge when I'm already carrying everything else on my shoulders right now for the family.
Posted By: Thinker Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 06/22/09 04:38 PM
Originally Posted By: BigJohn

I'm concerned not only about the potential damage to my self-respect but also the preservation of any feelings for my wife when her EA is either over or we separate/divorce, because at some point, she is going to need my compassion, one way or the other.



Hi BigJohn,

Sorry, I am feeling pretty direct and to the point this morning, so this is going to come across as a bit of a 2x4.
------

Detach

Detach

Detach

You are not your Marriage! You do not need your wife for her affection or affirmation or love or for your own self esteem.

Love Yourself. Take care of yourself. Respect Yourself.

If you don't, then there is not anything you can do for your family or your W.

I know, I was there, and in many ways still am.

Believe me.

To your W, the romantic relationship is dead. You need to accept and believe that it is. There may in the future be a chance to rebuild a new R with your W, but don't focus on that.

What do you need to be happy. If your first answer is "A R with my W" or "A R with a woman" then stop and rethink that. You can't have the R you want until you are happy without it.

You can't control you W. If she wants to proceed with the A, she will. Nothing you can do can stop it. The only person who can stop it is your W, and she has to make that decision all on her own.

Note that this does not mean letting her walk all over you. Set your boundaries. Don't just allow her to spend family $ to pursue the W. Don't let her drag the kids into the mess.

Once you have 1) made sure your wife knows you don't support her EA and 2) set the boundaries you need to be able to respect yourself, then focus on yourself.

What do you need to be happy? What are you not focusing on because you are obsessed with her EA? What have you been not doing for yourself for the past years? What don't you like about yourself? What do you need in order to be independent from your W? What are your biggest fears and limitations? Are you the best dad you could be? Did you do things wrong in this R that you want to make sure you don't do in the next one (with your W or otherwise...)

Take a good look, then get to work - on yourself.

It's painful! It's Hard! I know.

You can do it.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 06/22/09 04:39 PM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Hi Big John,


I do not understand why so many people know about her A. Who told the kids, relatives, and friends? The more people who are informed and are offering their suggestions to your W, the worse it will make the stitch. If she is openly flaunting the A, then the kids and family have a right to know, but if it is an EA and has a chance of disolving before going to the next level, .......well no point in going there b/c they "do" know already so need to deal with facts here.




Sandi,

I don't recall the sequence of events but after discovery of the EA, I believe I first confided in her younger brother for emotional support, then she in turn confided in a couple of her sisters, her mom and dad. Then she opened up to about 3-4 of her friends. Also, during the beginning of the EA, she was not secretive about openly flirty exchanges with OM on Facebook. Since the disclosure, I have overheard her talking to her sisters/mom wistfully about how good the OM makes her feel, so she is being open with them about her feelings but not publicly flaunting it.

After D3 blurted out "daddy (OM name)" twice while in the car alone with me a few weeks ago, I got very emotional and confronted my wife about it. During the confrontation, I had made comments that my younger son apparently overheard while in an adjacent room.

Regarding my contact with my son after the assault- I was not home at the time when it happened- I comforted him (he was crying uncontrollably)but made it clear to him that he could not treat his mother that way- ever. My wife saw this exchange but I did not see or hear her reaction to it.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 06/22/09 05:15 PM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Hi Big John,

I know, I know.......I know all the arguments about respect toward her, etc. But, I'm trying to tell you the POV from the WAW and if you want this M saved, then you have to listen to that POV.



Sandi, I absolutely agree that I'm going to have to rely upon your POV the most along with the other "almost" or former WAWs if I'm going to pull my W and I out of this sitch. I am grateful for your counsel. I forgot to add to my previous post above how I handled Fathers Day, which was the wrong way. I took my kids to a BBQ with my sister and her family and left my W home. I reacted that way after my W had made hurtful and disrespectful comments to me on Friday about hating to be around me and not caring for me, etc and wanting a vacation from me. I told her on Father's Day that I preferred to be around people who care about and love me- our family- and that she could sit home and spend time on her new relationship over the phone since she has apparently chosen him over me and the kids. I know, I let my emotions get the better of me. When I got home, she told me that she had actually wanted to go to the BBQ as it was a nice day out. A girlfriend had come over to visit, she spoke on the phone with her dad and yes, also called OM.

Two questions for you: 1) Given what has transpired recently, should I take my two sons to my counselor with me this week? How might my wife react to this? Would it be seen by her as provocative in some way? I am concerned about my boys right now and feel that this would be the right thing to do.

2) Setting some clear boundaries with my wife. Her declaration that she is going to take the kids with her out of state in August to see her family AND go on discrete dates with OM without the kids knowledge I feel is unacceptable. I'm getting mixed signals from her. Yes, she may be baiting me, but I'm also sensing from her an alternating sense that either 1) I'm not going to do anything about it or 2) I'm going to blow a gasket somehow and try to stop her. (And yes, I do know how to legally stop her from taking the kids in that eventuality... but it is not what I want.)

At times, it really seems to be a lot about her rebelling against me. So I'd like some ideas on how to thread this needle- defining concrete boundaries regarding her behavior while not coming off as "controling" while at the same time not feeding off her desire to rebel. I know, it sure seems like a tall order, but any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you again Sandi for your time and insight.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 06/22/09 05:23 PM
Originally Posted By: Thinker
Originally Posted By: BigJohn

I'm concerned not only about the potential damage to my self-respect but also the preservation of any feelings for my wife when her EA is either over or we separate/divorce, because at some point, she is going to need my compassion, one way or the other.



Hi BigJohn,

Sorry, I am feeling pretty direct and to the point this morning, so this is going to come across as a bit of a 2x4.
------

Detach

Detach

Detach

You are not your Marriage! You do not need your wife for her affection or affirmation or love or for your own self esteem.

Love Yourself. Take care of yourself. Respect Yourself.

If you don't, then there is not anything you can do for your family or your W.

I know, I was there, and in many ways still am.

Believe me.

To your W, the romantic relationship is dead. You need to accept and believe that it is. There may in the future be a chance to rebuild a new R with your W, but don't focus on that.

What do you need to be happy. If your first answer is "A R with my W" or "A R with a woman" then stop and rethink that. You can't have the R you want until you are happy without it.

You can't control you W. If she wants to proceed with the A, she will. Nothing you can do can stop it. The only person who can stop it is your W, and she has to make that decision all on her own.

Note that this does not mean letting her walk all over you. Set your boundaries. Don't just allow her to spend family $ to pursue the W. Don't let her drag the kids into the mess.

Once you have 1) made sure your wife knows you don't support her EA and 2) set the boundaries you need to be able to respect yourself, then focus on yourself.

What do you need to be happy? What are you not focusing on because you are obsessed with her EA? What have you been not doing for yourself for the past years? What don't you like about yourself? What do you need in order to be independent from your W? What are your biggest fears and limitations? Are you the best dad you could be? Did you do things wrong in this R that you want to make sure you don't do in the next one (with your W or otherwise...)

Take a good look, then get to work - on yourself.

It's painful! It's Hard! I know.

You can do it.


Thanks Thinker for the words of wisdom. You are right, and yes, I have given a lot of thought to what you mention in your post about wanting to take the steps I need to in order to be the man I want to come out as on the other side. Unfortunately, some of those steps take time and money, both of which are in short supply right now. But I can focus on my kids, which I am doing right now. And they and I are having as much fun as we can despite the current circumstances- which at times I think is somewhat irritating to my wife if I read her right. She is also pissed off about my improving relations with members of her family, including my BIL. Don't know why exactly that is, but she definitely doesn't like it.
Posted By: Thinker Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 06/22/09 05:35 PM
Originally Posted By: BigJohn
...they (the kids) and I are having as much fun as we can despite the current circumstances- which at times I think is somewhat irritating to my wife if I read her right. She is also pissed off about my improving relations with members of her family, including my BIL. Don't know why exactly that is, but she definitely doesn't like it.


Got it. Been there.

You are messing with your W's view on reality (the kids would be better off, my family doesn't like him anyway, etc).

My W also stays away from any times I am having fun with my S's and get's really annoyed if I get complimented by or have fun with any members of her family.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 06/22/09 07:42 PM
Dear Big John,

Thanks for explaining about your son and how that all happened. It helps a lot.

Regarding Father's Day, I can't really blame you for feeling the way you did or for even taking the actions you did. However, it did not benefit anyone except the OM. That is what you need to try to remember the next time you are tempted to dish back what she's been throwing at you.

It gets very complicated in these R's b/c if you disrespect her, then she will act even worse. You are correct, she is rebelling and she will beoome more like a kid the more you try to hand it back. In some ways, but hard to explain, you have to think of her in these terms. Try to see the outcome and who is going to benefit in the end (like on Father's Day).

I realize you said what you did out of anger and I am sure I would have felt just like you did, but anytime you tell her why doesn't she talk to the OM or go see him........THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT SHE WILL DO! That is her way of "showing you" and getting back at you for saying that. Although, I'm certain she would have talked to OM on Father's Day at any rate b/c she had the opportunity.

It makes me sick to think of this woman talking so openly about her EA. The fact that her children know is terrible. I mean, it's bad enough but for the kids' sake.......I really hate they found out. It has nothing to do with "exposing" the A. It has everything to do with the age of your children and the fact that they can't handle what she is doing. I would have flipped if I had been you and heard the three-year old refer to OM and "daddy"! That is carrying it way too far and you can bet that baby has been "taught" to say that. Babies do not know to call a stranger "Daddy OM". So, your wife probably taught the child that b/c she thought it was cute and wanted OM to hear. Makes me sick!!

I don't know that this would work at all b/c it is very, very difficult to get anywhere in conversation with WAW's and even if she agreed, how long would she stick with it? Therefore, if I were you, one of my boundaries would certainly be that the OM not be discussed to or in front of your three-year old child... nor that the child be coaxed into calling him by name. You need to decide what the consequenses will be if she breaks that boundary and make it severe enough that she won't take those chances.

You need to think about the other children and their welfare. The oldest is having problems already, and I think you are wise to be concerned. I think I would discuss it with your C before just taking them in with you. The C may want to see one at a time or whatever. Also, ask the C how you should approach the kids about going.....if the C thinks he/she should see your sons. Your W probably won't like it b/c she doesn't "see" the damage she's doing, but it doesn't matter....you have to take care of them. It seems that sobmebody who is not emotionally involved (like you are) should give them some guidance. They obviously know something very wrong is going on.

Your W must be in a SERIOUS fog to be that messed up!! Even when I was at my worst, I never wanted anybody to know, and if my children had been little, I don't think I would have wanted to them to find out about my EA. I mean, this woman is still in the early fantasy stages and it hasn't become a PA (and hopefully it won't). I know she "thinks" it will become a PA and that they are going to live happily ever after, but she is in for a rude awakening. If I were you and had to resort to legal help, then whatever it took to protect the children......I'd do it.

Anyway, back to the boundaries......I think in many ways the WAW has to be treated like a rebelious teen. In order to keep them from completely destroying everyone they touch, and to maintain your own self-respect, you have to have limitations to what you will put up with. Don't tell her what you will put up with, but do tell her what you Will NOT allow. But also understand that you cannot control her actions. That is the difference and why it is difficult to explain between boundaries and controling. If she chooses to do something that you won't sit back and allow without any action.....then she must suffer the consequenses of her actions. The key word being "suffer"......again just as with teenagers. What they suffer must hurt more than the pleasure they would have received from doing whatever it was they chose to do. For example, if you told her that you never wanted her to talk to OM in front of the children......and then you found out that she had.......what could you do that would make her never want to take that chance again? Of course, I am not suggesting any physical abuse to her......I'm sure you realize that! You also must know that you can't just say..."No more contact with OM", b/c she will find a way to make contact, but it doesn't have to be talking over the phone in front of your sons! You need to break it down and be specific. She needs to know where you stand on certain issues. Be reasonable.....if that makes sense. It is not reasonable for her to think she can have an EA, but I mean where your children are concerned and also about showing you respect in front of them. If I were in your place, I would certainly want my W to show respect toward me in front of my sons. They will learn how to have R's with women by watching their parents. If you lay down the boundaries and tell her that if she does XYZ that you will be forced to do 123....then she may think that 123 is not worth doing XYZ, and it will keep her within the boundaries. See what I mean?

Quote:
Her declaration that she is going to take the kids with her out of state in August to see her family AND go on discrete dates with OM without the kids knowledge I feel is unacceptable.


Yes, it is unacceptable. Her talking about OM is unacceptable. You will have to make the decision to either keep them from visiting the family or trust those family members not to allow the children to be exposed to the OM. Only you can determine if you think that her family could be trusted to do that. If it is her parents and they know about OM, then you may want to consider discussing the situation of the children visiting them and unless you can have their cooperation, then the kids won't be going. The problem there is her finding out about your intent of legal help and then she stoops to doing other drastic measures, so you have to be careful. It is all so sticky. Even if the grandparents assured you that the kids would not be around OM, she apparently wants them to know him.....so I think she would sneak them out if necessary. I am kind of blowing in the wind here b/c I frankly don't know what to advise. She will resist anything you try to say or do, so you have to bear that in mind, whatever you decide. Remember, whatever you say to her, be prepared to back it up.......that is why you don't need to allow her to bait you into a fight. When tempers flare, that is when threats are made.

I've made another longer post than I meant to! Anyway, do think carefully about the boundaries and what her consequenses would be if they were broken. Don't threaten her b/c she will rebell to "show" you what she'll do. Do put the walfare of your children before anything else.

Don't know that I've been much help, but I'll be around if you need to talk. It is a very hard road, but I am proof that things can turn around and be normal again. It is important that she show you respect, even if she doesn't like you! So, don't give up and keep improving on yourself. Don't pursure her b/c almost everything you say and do will be preceived as pursuing! The more time you take for you and the kids, the better. Keep pulling back from her in order to detach emotionally.

Take care,
Sandi
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 06/23/09 12:27 AM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Dear Big John,

It makes me sick to think of this woman talking so openly about her EA. The fact that her children know is terrible. I mean, it's bad enough but for the kids' sake.......I really hate they found out. It has nothing to do with "exposing" the A. It has everything to do with the age of your children and the fact that they can't handle what she is doing. I would have flipped if I had been you and heard the three-year old refer to OM and "daddy"! That is carrying it way too far and you can bet that baby has been "taught" to say that. Babies do not know to call a stranger "Daddy OM". So, your wife probably taught the child that b/c she thought it was cute and wanted OM to hear. Makes me sick!!



Sandi,

Thanks for another great post. Yes, I did flip out and was very upset re: D3's comment. When confronted my wife adamantly denied any responsibility for what my daughter said and in fact suggested that my daughter had confused OM name with the name of a classmate of her's whose name sounds the same as OM (only difference is the first letter of the names). I think that is a little too coincidental. Also, back in March, my W had disclosed to my BIL a "beautiful dream" the OM had experienced and told W about in which OM and my W had successfully taken my kids away from me out of state, were living together and he was being a father to my daughter and my sons. Sick stuff. Oh and BTW, when I confronted my wife over D3's comments, she got this "numb" look on her face. Don't know what that means, but I've seen that reaction a couple times now and wondered if it's my wife realizing she's tearing her marriage and family apart herself piece by piece... but can't help herself.

BTW, my wife has NOT disclosed OM to my sons and has put in a lot of effort to keep the EA a secret from them.

I do trust my in-laws to keep the kids away from OM if my W tried to introduce them to him (OM). I suspect that she would n't be so brazen at this juncture, especially with the boys, but then again who knows. My W has already told me that when she becomes single she would never introduce the kids to a new boyfriend until she had a well established relationship (I know, she already thinks she has that with OM!)

Sandi, my W is out of her friggin mind about this OM. She has said before "I love him more than anything else in this world". It's frightening how completely addicted/co-dependent she is to him, it's like he is Jesus to her. I really don't know exactly how she is going to "deal" with the EA by herself and get resolution on her own- she has already said she doesn't want the EA to stop. I just don't think she is strong enough by herself. As I may have mentioned before, my wife is normally passive by nature and leans towards being introverted and co-dependent. I don't know how those qualities could possibly work in my favor in this sitch.

My W has really turned into a mean spirited person since discovery of the EA- even her family members are noticing how remarkably mean and insensitive she is being towards me. Quite a contrast to the woman we all knew before the EA. No gift or card for my B-day in April, no card or Happy Father's Day along with all the other crap.

I understand that my wife has "changed" due to the EA, but is the woman I fell in love with "dead" or is this just a temporary double life persona that has presently taken over my wife? Will she ever come back to being relatively "normal" again? If not, what new behaviors are likely to "stick"? What original behaviors attitudes will survive? From what you can recall, what was your experience like Sandi?
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 06/23/09 04:10 AM
Quote:
From what you can recall, what was your experience like Sandi?


My experience seem unusual compared to most people here on the board simply b/c of the lateness in life (I guess is the best way to describe it). I had never had a problem with "age" the way some women do. But a lot of things had built up in me and I was very unhappy and lonely due to my R with my H. I felt emotionally dead inside. I had been on a lot of different medications and I believe everything combined with some other family issues was more than I could handle at the time. I was very depressed, to boot. That may sound like an excuse for my actions, but I do not give an "excuse", only trying to give a very brief background of my stitch. I was one of those women who would have been the last person on earth that you would have ever suspected of getting involved with OM over the Internet. I came from a strong Christian background and was instilled with good the moral ethics. I had been raised "right" (if you will excuse that expression). It is a long story so I won't go into the details. I never, ever thought I would stoop to doing what I did. Once I got off into that "world", then it was if I was lost and couldn't find my way back. Like your W, I didn't "want" the feelings I was experiencing to stop. I did not have the information to realize that it was a chemical that actually hits the brain and give the false illusion of "in-love" emotions. It felt like I was a young woman again and I was experiencing sexual excitment that I had not had for a long time. I was looking at a birthday coming up that just hit me smack in the face and realized I would be considered "old" and I was losing my looks and sex appeal. I wasn't the "type" of gal that went around looking for men to be attracted to me or anything like that, but I believe a lot of that is just human nature to want to be attractive to the opposite sex. Anyway, (don't know how I got on that but...) this OM was chatting with me and of course it turned sexual and he was feeding my ego like crazy. Being primed as I was.....I was hooked. When my H discovered my messages to OM over the Internet.....then he approached me with his findings and of course I could say nothing. He told me to delete OM from my emails and to end it. I did as I was told and my H thought that was that. However, the OM was able to tell when I went on line and he contacted me and then everything got even more secretive after that. I would contact him through a secret account and be sure I deleted any traces of the computer history. I got a pay-as-you-go cell phone to call him. When a WAW wants to contact OM, she will find a way. The more the H says to her, the more secretive she gets. A WAW finds a way, and that is why the H cannot do anything about her actions. He cannot control her and he cannot fix her. She will fight him every step of the way.

I was on a rollercoaster of emotions and it took a good while before I came here and found this board and begin to get the tools of information I needed to help myself. I felt so desparate when I found the DB board. Your wife had not felt that yet. Even with help from the books and this boad, it still took a long time for me to get through the process of giving up the OM and then going through the "grieving" and withdrawals. It really is like a drug that you have to put down and have the discipline to leave it alone. Knowing he is as close as the click of your computer. Very tempting unti you can get past that stage of the wthdrawal.

I was like a different person. My H could not believe it. We had always trusted each other with our lives. I broke that trust. I showed not interest in him. I did not cook for him, or wash his clotes or anything. I never went anywhere with him b/c I wanted free time on the comuter to contact OM. I never told my H a lie accept for withholding what I was doing by contacting OM. I did not discuss my feeling or anything else about OM. I couldn't. It felt wrong to do that. Your W and I are very different in that respect. The best thing that I had going for me was the fact that I had had my children when I was very young and therefore they were grown when I had my EA. I don't know what I would have done or been like if I had had small children. I remember having fantasies, but I never acted on anyting.......not like contacting a real perosn.I remembered the first time I called and I was so nervous and in the back of my mind I knew I was taking the biggest risk of my M.....but I did it anyway....that is what's so sick.

It was a very bad time that I never want to have repeated. I have to say that, in all fairness, I can look back and see where it was either my hormones going crazy or else it was that combined with those chemicals flooding my brain cells when the OM was feeding my ego.......that affected my behavor. But like I said, I don't "excuse" my actions.......but at times I still wonder about how that all happened. I just got into a mess that I had no business getting into.

Your W is not the woman you married! Someday, hopefully, she will return, but there are no promises. She could make some very poor decisions while in this condition that will effect her life and her family's. That is what is so scary! She is very unpredictable and you cannot take stock in ANYTHING she says. Don't believe her! Remind yourself everyday that she is not the woman you use to know.

I think the thing that seems so weird with your W is how she openly talks about her fantasy with this OM with you and her BIL and friends. It amazes me that she is not embarrassed by having this attraction when she is a M woman. She acts as if it is nothing to be ashamed of. Why do you think that is? Has she been like that regarding other things in life?

I thought your son had over-heard some dicussion about OM is why he was upset. I must have misunderstood. Anyway, if they know something is going on, and they probably do b/c kids are so darn smart! I sure would consider talking to your C about what to do where they are concerned. It will probably affect the rest of their lives.

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My W has already told me that when she becomes single she would never introduce the kids to a new boyfriend until she had a well established relationship (I know, she already thinks she has that with OM!)


She's lying. Don't believe a word of it. She will introduce them some way--some how to the OM. They may not know he is OM at the time, but she will do it. There was a young lady here on the board who had what appeared to be a very close R with her H. However, even when he left her for OW, he promised her faithfully he would never let OW around the children. But he took them to the movies one night and guess who just happen to be at the same place? You see, Your W sees this OM as her future H and so she is eager to get everything into place.....including the children. She needs to know that OM and her children accept each other. That is part of the fantasy....to become one big happy family. And you? Oh, she thinks to "scr*w you" b/c you aren't important to her now. You are interferring with her plans.

It is all about her fantasy. ON may reach a place that he is no longer interested in her. If he would really treat her badly "before" it turns into a PA.....that would be the best thing to happen. However.....and this is the kicker.......it is her "condition" that makes her very vulnerable to any OM. That hurts, doesn't it? I think that it was not so much my OM, but that it could have been almost any OM that came into my life at that moment in time. I was in a bad place emotionally and he filled the void. I could have found another man if he didn't want me, but thankfully, I did not go down that road. I'm not so sure about your W, b/c it is an individual thing and how she is affected by hormones and the whole bit. It's so hard to explain. Just like me trying to think back about my own stitch and still wonder how it all happened and try to tell another person about it.

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As I may have mentioned before, my wife is normally passive by nature and leans towards being introverted and co-dependent.


That is not good. It means she will more than likely take an emotional beating from this OM before she wakes up to reality. I wish I could offer up more encouragement.

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My W has really turned into a mean spirited person since discovery of the EA- even her family members are noticing how remarkably mean and insensitive she is being towards me. Quite a contrast to the woman we all knew before the EA. No gift or card for my B-day in April, no card or Happy Father's Day along with all the other crap.


Big John....I want you to get this point if you get nothing else, okay? She can't stand you! There, I said it, and I'm sorry but that is how she really feels toward you while she is in this WAW mode. You are the least person on earth that she would probably try to save if drowning. Well, that may be extreme, but I want you to get the picture here. Stop thinking of her in terms of her being the person you M b/c she isn't there in her mind right now. She sees herself as already divorced from you. She may never be "normal"
again! Like I said, there are no promises. Do the best you can for you and the kids and if you believe in God, I sugest you pray real hard. I'm not trying to be "cute" or funny. I am dead serious.

I
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understand that my wife has "changed" due to the EA, but is the woman I fell in love with "dead" or is this just a temporary double life persona that has presently taken over my wife? Will she ever come back to being relatively "normal" again? If not, what new behaviors are likely to "stick"? What original behaviors attitudes will survive?


I wish I could answer that for you. The problem is that it depends largly on the individual person. By your description of her, it does not sound good, but I have seen a few miracles in my life, so who knows. I can only say that I was not myself at all during the ordeal I went through, and I do think that I am back to who I use to be. It was a long, hard road to get back and I had to do "work" b/c it didn't just fall into place. I had to "want" to be my old self again and have my life back. If your W doesn't "see" what is happening and have that desire to get herself well from this state of mind she's in.....then you or nobody else can help her. She will not listen to you. If there is anybody that she admires and respects very highly.....she may at least listen to what they have to say, but I'm afraid that she is so far gone in her fantasy of this OM and what she thinks he is and what their future will be......it really concerns me that she is over the top......she has lost touch with reality. There is something that I don't know how to explain where she is concerned. I'm wondering if there is something more here than an EA with OM. I'm wondering if she needs professional help in why this all happened. Am I making sense? It sounds so......I don't know.....freaky. Any WAW sounds "sick" but this is beyond that.....IMHO. Of course, she would resist any means of professional help b/c as she said, she doesn't want this feeling that the EA has produced to ever stop. It is the "feeling", you know.....not the OM. A big concern is to what extent this OM is pursuing her. Is he just getting his kicks out of this and thinks it will get him into her panties or is he seriously leading her to believe he will M her. My OM knew all the right words to lead me on and even told me he would come get me and take care of me.......but he never said anything about possibly getting M. He would refer to a future together, etc., but he was careful as to what words he use. He was very smart! Does she tell what the OM says to her? Or is it all how she feels, etc.?

Well, I've made another very long post. So, I'll close for now. Hope you can get rest tonight. You don't know how badly I could help you. I think it may have been your other thread in Newcomers where I was one of the board's vets say that there is nothing a man can do about his WAW.....he just has to be as confident as he can be b/c that is what is most attractive. I think there is a lot of truth in that. In fact, guess what attracted me to my OM? Yep!

Well, good night. Hope have a peaceful night.

Sandi
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 06/23/09 05:05 AM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Quote:
From what you can recall, what was your experience like Sandi?


It felt like I was a young woman again and I was experiencing sexual excitment that I had not had for a long time. I was looking at a birthday coming up that just hit me smack in the face and realized I would be considered "old" and I was losing my looks and sex appeal.




Sandi,

My W has told me that during what she has described as the "height" of the EA in all of March (where she was only sleeping 3-4 hrs. everyday and texting/calling the OM 20+ hrs. non stop) that she felt this way and how incredible it was. She has stated that she no longer feels this level of intensity for OM.... yet she admits to a strong desire for it to all work out despite the fact that "a number of things would have to happen in order for it to work out" (perhaps her attempt to demonstrate she is in touch with "reality"?)

I may have mentioned before that my W has told me that the EA with OM has opened her eyes to how happy she could be with the "right" person- and that is not me. I just don't make her feel loved, admired/respected, beautiful, etc. She has repeatedly told me and others that people can't change, and that she feels bad that I want to change now and that she does not care. She has indicated that I am definitely not want she wants. She has also explained to the OM that she wants him and he can have her but that if he can't/won't make the sacrifices needed, she will still divorce me, move on and find someone else just like him to fulfill her needs. She has told OM and I that she would rather live ALONE that live with me as the EA has brought into sharp contrast for her feelings/impressions that I "look down on her" and "always have." He puts her on a pedestal (big time!) and I do not.

As I have previously described the OM, he is deep down a pathetic individual who is slick with the women- an extrovert living a very active single life- but who has never had a successful long term relationship. My W is beautiful and successful- someone he does not deserve and could not get before the EA. My wife has compared him to the "Beast" as in the movie "Beauty and the Beast" while I remind her of the "Gaston" character. (I know, this is the maturity level I am dealing with. and yes, I know that it all smacks of my W having a very low self esteem.) So I believe that this OM is desperate and just might try his best to "save" my W from a perceived horrible marriage. I believe that she is DEFINATLEY encouraging this type of though process with him- so I'm starting to wonder who is using who- both of them I guess for their own selfish reasons.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 06/23/09 07:32 AM
Originally Posted By: sandi2



I was like a different person. My H could not believe it. We had always trusted each other with our lives. I broke that trust. I showed not interest in him. I did not cook for him, or wash his clotes or anything. I never went anywhere with him b/c I wanted free time on the comuter to contact OM. I never told my H a lie accept for withholding what I was doing by contacting OM. I did not discuss my feeling or anything else about OM. I couldn't. It felt wrong to do that. Your W and I are very different in that respect.




My wife still cooks and cleans the house... but it's for the benefit of the family. She only goes out with me when we are with the kids. She only discussed her feeling for the OM when we first were openly talking about the affair but now only when I initiate the R talks. If I didn't ask I don't think she would be so open to volunteering this information... so I'm to blame for having to hear about these details.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 06/23/09 07:41 AM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
[quote]

I think the thing that seems so weird with your W is how she openly talks about her fantasy with this OM with you and her BIL and friends. It amazes me that she is not embarrassed by having this attraction when she is a M woman. She acts as if it is nothing to be ashamed of. Why do you think that is? Has she been like that regarding other things in life?




She was mostly this way in March and only then confided in her closest friends and family members. I agree, the outward lack of shame even with her closest confidants is disturbing, she has never acted this way before. I kind of wonder if the lack of inhabition is some expression of her feeling "liberated" in her mind from me who has "oppressed" her all these years.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 06/23/09 08:13 AM
Originally Posted By: sandi2


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You see, Your W sees this OM as her future H and so she is eager to get everything into place.....including the children. She needs to know that OM and her children accept each other. That is part of the fantasy....to become one big happy family. And you? Oh, she thinks to "scr*w you" b/c you aren't important to her now. You are interferring with her plans.


I am aware of this and have made a point to inject little doses of reality into her fantasy whenever the need arises. For example, she really believed that I would just sign away my rights to the kids so she could move back with them to her home state until I told her in no uncertain terms would I do this. This really pissed her off because it is yet another obstacle to making her fantasy a reality. And it ups the ante for the OM- this maggot is going to have to make a lot of sacrifices in order to be my W's shining knight. But he is living in fantasy land also.

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Big John....I want you to get this point if you get nothing else, okay? She can't stand you! There, I said it, and I'm sorry but that is how she really feels toward you while she is in this WAW mode. You are the least person on earth that she would probably try to save if drowning. Well, that may be extreme, but I want you to get the picture here. Stop thinking of her in terms of her being the person you M b/c she isn't there in her mind right now. She sees herself as already divorced from you. She may never be "normal"
again! Like I said, there are no promises. Do the best you can for you and the kids and if you believe in God, I sugest you pray real hard. I'm not trying to be "cute" or funny. I am dead serious.


I am aware of her not being able to stand me right now. Everything is my fault, she is not accountable for anything. And yes, I do believe in God and I pray to him regularly.

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I had to "want" to be my old self again and have my life back. If your W doesn't "see" what is happening and have that desire to get herself well from this state of mind she's in.....then you or nobody else can help her.


I know she doesn't want the "old" marriage and neither do I. She has expressed fear of getting into a rut if she comes back to me and any of my positive changes don't stick. That doesn't sound like someone who won't change personalities. Yet in a new relationship, I think she will want to change into a different person to some degree.


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She will not listen to you. If there is anybody that she admires and respects very highly.....she may at least listen to what they have to say, but I'm afraid that she is so far gone in her fantasy of this OM and what she thinks he is and what their future will be......it really concerns me that she is over the top......she has lost touch with reality. There is something that I don't know how to explain where she is concerned. I'm wondering if there is something more here than an EA with OM. I'm wondering if she needs professional help in why this all happened.


She won't listen to anyone including her father who unfortunately is a lot like me. And she won't talk to our pastor about things either.

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A big concern is to what extent this OM is pursuing her. Is he just getting his kicks out of this and thinks it will get him into her panties or is he seriously leading her to believe he will M her. My OM knew all the right words to lead me on and even told me he would come get me and take care of me.......but he never said anything about possibly getting M. He would refer to a future together, etc., but he was careful as to what words he use. He was very smart! Does she tell what the OM says to her? Or is it all how she feels, etc.?


Don't know those specifics, at the least he has implied that he wants to marry her, be a new daddy to my kids etc. Again, he appears to be living in the same fantasy world.

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I think it may have been your other thread in Newcomers where I was one of the board's vets say that there is nothing a man can do about his WAW.....he just has to be as confident as he can be b/c that is what is most attractive. I think there is a lot of truth in that. In fact, guess what attracted me to my OM? Yep!


I understand the concept however I seem to be damned if I do and damned if I don't with her right now. She has had a hard time differentiating real confidence with cockiness/arrogance. She is really looking hard for some humility- something I can't do right now because I have to be strong.

Good night Sandi, thanks again for all of your feedback.


Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 06/23/09 12:32 PM
Quote:
My W has told me that during what she has described as the "height" of the EA in all of March (where she was only sleeping 3-4 hrs. everyday and texting/calling the OM 20+ hrs. non stop) that she felt this way and how incredible it was. She has stated that she no longer feels this level of intensity for OM...


So this shows that the chemicals supplied to her brain is decreasing and based on the other things you said about her finding another person if this OM doesn't work out, backs up what I said about my own self when I was addicted to the OM drug. She truly is "high" from this addiction and that is why she could go on just a few hours of sleep and had that "wonderful" feeling. What she doesn't know is that it will not last. Also, if she and OM met to have a PA, that often times fails big time. One lady told about meeting her OM to have sex and he could not perform and that was the only time...and last time they met. She could never make her H believe they did not have sex. It only proves that the "fantasy" does not play out the way the WAS dreams about. What concerns me about your W is that she must realize that the "drug" of this EA is wearing off b/c she is already thinking of the possiblity of looking for somebody else to "make her happy" if he doesn't work out. She is depending on another human to bring her happiness into her life. That is not very mature at her age and she needs to know that happiness is her choice. She has to make herself happy and not think it is your job or some other man's.

I tell you exactly what she reminds me of. One of the main things that got my attention was when I read about a couple of E-Books about womens.infadelity and I bought them and read both of them that night. They aren't that long, but it took me most of the night. I couldn't tear myself away b/c it not only described the condition I was presently in at the time, but what I would become if I continued the downward spiral ahead of me. It really, really shook me up and that was when I made my first real attempts at breaking lose of the EA. I had made weak attempts before, but after reading those two little books, I got serious. It takes both books b/c it is a continuation. I think it would be worth it to you to check it out and it would describe how your W is feeling and what to expect of her much better than I can.

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She has told OM and I that she would rather live ALONE that live with me as the EA has brought into sharp contrast for her feelings/impressions that I "look down on her" and "always have." He puts her on a pedestal (big time!) and I do not.


It is just more of her disillusioned state of mind. You are her "scape goat" about everything. That is why you do more damage than good to try to discuss her EA or the OM with her. You won't talk her out of this and it will take either a bad experience or another person or situation to get her eyes open. What she doesn't know, is this OM probably spends his life playing on women. There is no telling how many women he is stringing along at the same time. I was told that about my OM and I would not believe it. It seemed so sincere! Yeah, right! Now, I believe that that is how he past his evenings away was on line with other women when I wasn't available. There were little signs that I begin to see but did not want to admit. She will too. The problem is if she'll try to find another man.

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I believe that she is DEFINATLEY encouraging this type of though process with him- so I'm starting to wonder who is using who- both of them I guess for their own selfish reasons.


Exactly! She could very well be facing a MLC also. That makes it even worse b/c it takes longer to come out of that than the WAW mode. I hope she isn't, but don't know. The two are so similiar in symptoms, it is hard to know. Usually, one can look at the age of the woman. As I said before, hormone changes can affect us women in a massive way. Usually, a woman in MLC starts playing out her life as if she is a teenager or in her 20's and single again. She dresses too young and sexy. She wears a lot of make-up to hide her age and tries to act so young it makes her appear very redictulas. She's trying to recapture her youth and relive being single again. At this time, she thinks she could be a lot happier living alone than with you b/c she would be free to live the "single's life" which she thinks would be fun. She has it painted to be a sort of glamours lifestyle. With three kids, I don't think it would be so glamorous after a short time! If she is in MLC, this is going to be worse and take much, much longer. I hope she isn't.

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My wife still cooks and cleans the house... but it's for the benefit of the family.


The difference for me was my children were not small and dependent on me. My children were grown and it's just the two of us here. I also have Fibromyalgia which left me completely drained of energy after work each day, so that was my excuse to not do anything. We ate easy to fix meals or carry-out and I only washed clothes we had to have. The housework pretty much went by the way-side. The point is, I did not do like I had always done with my home and being a wife. I used the excuse of my illness as my smokescreen. I happen to have a very understanding H who did not make demands of me, and plush he trusted me when I was on the computer for hours. It was an accident that he discovered my activity on-line. I was so stupid to think he wouldn't find out. That shows you how fogged a person's mind is when they are like that. They do not "think" rationally.

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If I didn't ask I don't think she would be so open to volunteering this information... so I'm to blame for having to hear about these details.


Unless you "want" to hear about her EA and the OM, I would suggest that you not ask any more questions, period. To me, it is disrespectful to you, her H, to discuss her feelings for OM. It also leads her into conversations of how badly you have failed her as a H. So, it does you no good and causes much pain and knocks your self-esteem on its bottom. I would suggest that if she brings up anything about OM or her feelings for the single life, etc., that you stop her in mid sentence and say, "You know what? I really don't want to hear you talk about that anymore. I perfer you keep those thoughts to yourself and not share them. I have all the information about the subject that I need, now". Or something in your own words, but that is the general idea.

As I said before, it is very important that she show you respect and especially in front of your children. Now that you do know what is going on and she's been upfront with you, and some men say they perfer that instead of the lying....which I understand, but I don't think she should continue to discuss the details of her feelings and go on & on about it. That's JMHO, but it doesn't seem right and certainly not respectful. (I know, neither is having an A, but I'm talking about "showing" respect for you.) If you could talk to her beforehand and tell her that you will not tollerate her speaking disrespectful any longer and that she is to not even hint at leaving you or the OM in front of the children (and always refer to them as "the" children and not "your" children.....b/c it will make her temper flare) then she would at least be warned and then when you stop her from finishing a sentence or whatever....she will know "why" you are doing it. If ANYTHING is ever said that is inappropriate, you need to stop it right then and there. If possible, dismiss the kids to the other room or take her to another room and remind her that she slipped up and not to talk that way in front of the children. Don't argue with her b/c she will start. Just walk away. Don't get into a R with her b/c she will start. This is the "trap" that you must beware of and do not fall into it. Everytime she begins to argue or start a R talk....stop her and tell her you are not going to get into it, and walk away. You may even have to leave the house if she is in a rage.

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She was mostly this way in March and only then confided in her closest friends and family members.


This shows how quicly her drug is deplinishing. It is important to know if she is getting support from her friends and closest family members. If she feels they are on "her side", then it encourages her. You see, my H exposed me to my mother and it about killed her. I almost hated him for doing that but he was very angry at the time and knew I was on my way over to her house. I didn't know if it was the end of our M or exactly what I was doing when I went to her that night, I just knew I had to get away from him. So, he called her before I got there and told her to make me tell her the "whole truth" and not just my side of it. Fortunately, he did not go into the horrible details of my actions with that man, but he told her I was having an inappropriate R with OM. As a result, I had to confirm what he said and it has taken years off her life. I was the "good" daughter who she would have suspected something like this from ANYBODY before me. So, now you know how badly it shocked and disappointed her. But, do you know that in my trying to win her over to "my side" of things, I bad mouthed my H to the point that she was turning against him. She never accepted the idea of that OM by any means, but it hurt her R with my H. She's never mistreated him but she doesn't think as much of him due to my negative talk. So, your W is doing the same thing and turning people against you. The more she makes you out to be the bad guy in the MR, the more she thinks she is justified to leave you and go find happiness where ever it make take her. If she has D friends or those who have been involved in A's or are in unhappy M's, they are probably cheering her on. If her family and friends are not supporting what she's doing....she will drop them out of her life and not discuss what she's doing. So, you can watch what happens and know if they backed her up or not.

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I am aware of this and have made a point to inject little doses of reality into her fantasy whenever the need arises. For example, she really believed that I would just sign away my rights to the kids so she could move back with them to her home state until I told her in no uncertain terms would I do this. This really pissed her off because it is yet another obstacle to making her fantasy a reality. And it ups the ante for the OM- this maggot is going to have to make a lot of sacrifices in order to be my W's shining knight. But he is living in fantasy land also.


Yes, this confirms what I said before. It is unreal to the LBH how crazy her mind can work. Maybe the OM is living in a fantasy also, but based on the information I've gained about the majority of some of these men, he knows exactly what he's doing and she's not the only one he's playing. These men would do and say most anything just for a one night's stand. As you said, he's pathetic.

Don't do things to intentionlly make her angry b/c she will do things out of spite toward you and I promise, it won't be good! But, you do need to show a lot of self-respect and have her to show you respect in front of the children. When in private, I would not allow her to disrespect me then either if I had to leave for a couple of hours and then come back......I would get the point across to her that I was not going to stand back and do nothing while she treated me like that. As I said, you can't control what she does when she away or hidden out, but you can handle things that happen in you front of you. Unless she had a bad upbringing, hopefully she knows down in her heart that W's and H's are to show respect toward each other. Although, her conscious is not working properly, so you may have to remind her from time to time that she is not behaving appropriately as a mother. She doesn't care if how she's acting as a W......which she's made clear. But, hopefully, she still cares how she acts as a mother. Just save that phrase for a "have to" case b/c she will hate you for it.

You see, nothing you say or do is going to cause her to like you very much. So the best thing for you is to turn her lose. You do that by dropping the rope and begin to live your life apart from her. Am I telling you to move out? NOT A ALL! Don't leave those children! But, drop the rope from her by cutting your emotional feelings as much as you possibly can. You back off and leave her alone to do whatever she would do anyway (accept for the showing respect) and make sure the children are not being mistreated by her and that you spend a lot of time with them. You need to be out away from her, physically, as much as you can (with the children or without them) and give her all the space she wants. But, hopefully, she will notice how you are looking really great b/c you are working out (right?) and wearing good-looking new clothes and wearing great cologne when you go out........and she wonders what is that all about. Then she is aware of how much time you are away from her and you always seem to have something else to do that doesn't include her! Hey, you are GAL!! You are not showing you care one twit about her or what she's doing in "her" life!! She notices that you are not available to her like you use to be. Oh.....hummmm......that makes you interesting to her and gets her attention. At least, we hope it does. A person never knows if the WAW will look back at her LBH or not when he drops the rope, but for sure, she won't if he doesn't. I think in most cases that dropping the rope is the only hope for the LBH. It only works......(are you listening closely here?)....it only works if you do it for your sake and not to win her back. I told you the positive things that "may" happen as a result of you dropping the rope, but it doesn't happen every time. However, even if it doesn't....you will be able to gain strength and self-esteem to the place you are much better off than you are now. Right now, you don't think that is possible, but many men have experienced that very thing. Some have found out that they became detached much more rapidly than they thought possible. It is called....survival. I think it is your only chance with your WAW.

You are getting a lot of advice over on the Newcomers thread. Puppy Dog is a vet here on the board and he's been through the ringer, so he knows the score. Some others are pretty new to the board, but are going through the same thing you are. Anyway, you have to do what you think is best for your stitch. It is your life. We will be here to try to encourage you.

Take care,
Sandi

Posted By: BigJohn !! - 06/24/09 08:02 AM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Quote:


What concerns me about your W is that she must realize that the "drug" of this EA is wearing off b/c she is already thinking of the possiblity of looking for somebody else to "make her happy" if he doesn't work out. She is depending on another human to bring her happiness into her life. That is not very mature at her age and she needs to know that happiness is her choice. She has to make herself happy and not think it is your job or some other man's.


Agreed, she does have co-dependent tendencies. In fact our C gave her the book "Codependent No More" to read. W got to Chapter 3 before throwing the book against the wall and stating that she couldn't identify with anything in it.

Quote:
I tell you exactly what she reminds me of. One of the main things that got my attention was when I read about a couple of E-Books about womens.infadelity and I bought them and read both of them that night. They aren't that long, but it took me most of the night. I couldn't tear myself away b/c it not only described the condition I was presently in at the time, but what I would become if I continued the downward spiral ahead of me. It really, really shook me up and that was when I made my first real attempts at breaking lose of the EA. I had made weak attempts before, but after reading those two little books, I got serious. It takes both books b/c it is a continuation. I think it would be worth it to you to check it out and it would describe how your W is feeling and what to expect of her much better than I can.


Which books are those? Are you referring to "Women's Infidelity- Living in Limbo" and "Women's Infidelity II" by Michelle Langley? I got 'em both. Interesting reads. Some of the conclusions she comes to are tough to swallow, especially about the women usually being "100% done" by the time they get around to sharing their needs with their husbands- like that list my wife shared with me of her "needs" that I mentioned in a prior post- that I took as a POSITIVE sign. Good grief! Also, the section on women's guilt was kind of tough to read too. Do you or any of the other former WAWs see any validity with regards to Langley's observations on women's guilt? Some of what she writes about women's guilt almost borders on sociopathic behavior.

Quote:
What she doesn't know, is this OM probably spends his life playing on women. There is no telling how many women he is stringing along at the same time. I was told that about my OM and I would not believe it. It seemed so sincere! Yeah, right! Now, I believe that that is how he past his evenings away was on line with other women when I wasn't available. There were little signs that I begin to see but did not want to admit. She will too. The problem is if she'll try to find another man.


I pointed that out to her about OM as well. All she had to do is look over his Facebook page and see all the married women who are his "friends". She just can't see what a creep he is!

Quote:
She could very well be facing a MLC also.


The only possible signs I've seen are posting old H.S. photos on her Facebook page, joining her H.S. alumni club (to look up other old boyfriends perhaps? and wistful comments about the "good old days". She has also been very diligent in working out 2 hrs. a day to get in the best shape she can.

Quote:
My wife still cooks and cleans the house... but it's for the benefit of the family.


I should add, however, that she hasn't been putting much effort into finding a new job.

Quote:
This shows how quicly her drug is deplinishing. It is important to know if she is getting support from her friends and closest family members. If she feels they are on "her side", then it encourages her.


Although some acknowledge my faults to her, no one in her family wants to see her divorce me. She does have one friend, however, that lived the single life up through age 40, with kids, and who seems to be providing her with either neutral or somewhat positive feedback- not sure what that is though.

Quote:
As a result, I had to confirm what he said and it has taken years off her life. I was the "good" daughter who she would have suspected something like this from ANYBODY before me. So, now you know how badly it shocked and disappointed her. But, do you know that in my trying to win her over to "my side" of things, I bad mouthed my H to the point that she was turning against him. She never accepted the idea of that OM by any means, but it hurt her R with my H. She's never mistreated him but she doesn't think as much of him due to my negative talk. So, your W is doing the same thing and turning people against you. The more she makes you out to be the bad guy in the MR, the more she thinks she is justified to leave you and go find happiness where ever it make take her. If she has D friends or those who have been involved in A's or are in unhappy M's, they are probably cheering her on. If her family and friends are not supporting what she's doing....she will drop them out of her life and not discuss what she's doing. So, you can watch what happens and know if they backed her up or not.


You are spot on with this. She apparently has been attacking my "sincerity" with her family, trying to develop some skepticism with them over me. I suspect that this has had limited success with my SILs but very little effect with my BILs and FIL. My FIL is a strong supporter of me and our family, he had a talk with W about the A and the M that did not end well and they haven't been talking much which is too bad as they are close. It is ironic how the only two people my W says she trusts her life with- her H and her Dad- are the two people she is most on the outs with right now.

Quote:
But, hopefully, she will notice how you are looking really great b/c you are working out (right?) and wearing good-looking new clothes and wearing great cologne when you go out........and she wonders what is that all about. Then she is aware of how much time you are away from her and you always seem to have something else to do that doesn't include her! Hey, you are GAL!! You are not showing you care one twit about her or what she's doing in "her" life!! She notices that you are not available to her like you use to be. Oh.....hummmm......that makes you interesting to her and gets her attention. At least, we hope it does. A person never knows if the WAW will look back at her LBH or not when he drops the rope, but for sure, she won't if he doesn't. I think in most cases that dropping the rope is the only hope for the LBH. It only works......(are you listening closely here?)....it only works if you do it for your sake and not to win her back. I told you the positive things that "may" happen as a result of you dropping the rope, but it doesn't happen every time. However, even if it doesn't....you will be able to gain strength and self-esteem to the place you are much better off than you are now. Right now, you don't think that is possible, but many men have experienced that very thing. Some have found out that they became detached much more rapidly than they thought possible. It is called....survival. I think it is your only chance with your WAW.


Haven't seen too much of this yet, but then I haven't dropped the rope until now. So far, she has admitted that I'm still handsome, although she makes a point to never reciprocate compliments no matter how good I'm looking.

I agree with you on dropping the rope, if even for the sake of survival. I've got to do it for me and for the kids sakes.

Hey thanks again Sandi for another great post!
Posted By: sandi2 Re: !! - 06/28/09 02:40 AM
Quote:
It is ironic how the only two people my W says she trusts her life with- her H and her Dad- are the two people she is most on the outs with right now.


So, that shows you how mixed up she is.

I will have to review the part on women's guilt in those books. The part that got me was the downward spiral and how the woman will finally get to the place she cannot be satisfied in any R and that her feelings will become so numb that it's as if she died. Now, that scared the mess out of me and was very instumental in getting me turned around.

If your W cannot see herself in any material she reads, it sounds very bad. She may be too far gone.....but I don't know that. I do think the best thing for you and for the R would be to drop the rope b/c you need to move forward in life in order to survive and if anything sends a message to her....dropping the rope will. It will take time for even that to hit her, but I don't think anything else will be productive at this time. I only hope that she will come to her normal self before it is too late for her mental & emotional state.

Don't stop posting b/c you still need the support here. I'll check back later.

Sandi
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 06/28/09 10:46 AM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
[quote]
What she doesn't know, is this OM probably spends his life playing on women. There is no telling how many women he is stringing along at the same time. I was told that about my OM and I would not believe it. It seemed so sincere! Yeah, right! Now, I believe that that is how he past his evenings away was on line with other women when I wasn't available. There were little signs that I begin to see but did not want to admit. She will too. The problem is if she'll try to find another man.


Sandi,

I agree completely with your read on my W's OM- I think eventually he is going to lose interest when the "thrill" starts wearing off. I'm presuming that if/when OM does dump my W, I'll probably see her experience the grieving process- but what if I don't? What if the feeling between her and OM is mutual and they both get tired of each other? What then? Just wondering if I will need to be alert to any specific indicators that may signal a need to change up what I am doing.

Thanks for checking in on me. I really appreciate your feedback and support!
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 06/28/09 11:04 AM
Hey Thinker,

I noticed in your sitch that OM "fled" on 2/09 and that you are currently still in Limboland. Just curious as to how the dynamics of your R with your W have changed since OM got out of the picture. I ask because I think I'll be facing this at some point in my sitch as well. Did your W grieve after being dumped by OM? Looking back, was there any window of opportunity that may have been seized at the time OM left that might have turned things around for you and W rather than your R with your W going into Limboland?

I'm concerned about the possibility of OM dropping my W then my W starting to search for a replacement for OM, perhaps here locally. As I mentioned in an earlier post, my W has told both me and OM that she will find someone "just like him (OM)" if it doesn't work out with him (OM).
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 06/29/09 01:51 AM
Quote:
What if the feeling between her and OM is mutual and they both get tired of each other? What then? Just wondering if I will need to be alert to any specific indicators that may signal a need to change up what I am doing.


Well, that does happen! They may go as far as to get M. That is a reality that you have to face. "If" you stick with dropping the rope, then you won't change anything b/c you will be on your way to a new life. "If" you truly drop the rope, I don't think you will be observing her close enough to even know if the status in her R with OM is intensified or if it's failing unless she tells you that they are getting M or have broken up. That is the point of dropping the rope is that you are not involved with her personal life. You don't think about it b/c you have moved on and have you own life.

It will soon be apparent if you truly have dropped the rope or not. It is all about "attitude" and your thought process. Your focus on her drops and your attention is on other things. That's why it has to come from within you and not be an "act" or a "tool" to get her back.

I sure hope you can do it. Almost all the LBS think that they can't at first, but in time they discover that is the only route to survival and keeping their sanity.

Talk to you later,
Sandi
Posted By: Kittyfish Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 06/29/09 08:03 PM
You're getting great advice here!
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 06/30/09 12:43 AM
Quote:
Your focus on her drops


Apparently my mind and my keyboard were in two differnt places. I don't know what the heck this is suppose to mean! crazy
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 06/30/09 03:12 PM
Originally Posted By: Kittyfish
You're getting great advice here!


I agree, Sandi is outstanding! Although I would like to hear more about your experience Kittyfish. As I recall, unlike Sandi's experience, there wasn't much your EX-H could do once you had decided you were "done". Thinking back, was there really NOTHING he couldn't have done to save your M? Did he pursue too much or not put in enough effort to work on his own issues? Did he not give you enough time to work things out on your own? Just curious as you and my W are close in age.
Posted By: tryingtilDorR Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 06/30/09 06:05 PM
BigJohn,
I just discovered your threads and I am in a very similar situation, except that my W's OM is not in another state unfortunately. However, is is also an old HS friend and she is kind of going through what my IC calls a 're-do', which sounds like what your W is doing also. You are so lucky that they are geographically separated.

My W hasn't gone as far as yours in admitting the impact of the EA on her. She has made many contradictory commemnts, howver, like saying she had feelings for this person but then later trying to deny she said it. Lately she has toned down the contact with OM but it is still there. My boundary was no more contact EVER, and she then chose to sleep in another room because she could not promise no contact ever (they are 'friends' and she was planning on calling him after he had surgery, etc. etc.). She is only here for her kids and hasn't wanted to really work on R sine EA started last Nov.

Many of the other things your wife has said to you match my situation completely, but she hasn't been 'flaunting' the fact that she had/has an EA (she has trouble even calling it an A). I also exposed it to her family and close friends to her dismay, but they have firmly remained in my camp on all this and think she is nuts (I think this helps keep her from running).

Here are things I have done during this process that you should think about if you haven't already -

A) GAL - exercise, weightlifting, cycling, volunteer work
B) Many positive changes in myself as a result of IC and other learning htat would make a huge differeence in our R if she ever returned to it - W resents most of the change because its 'too late'
C) detatching to some extent, but we still argue about EA/OM especially after I re-discovered that EA was still happening about a month ago. I am working on this. I am starting to accept that I can't control her OM interactions. She claims she doesn't talk to him but I know texting is going on.

It sounds like you have the ability to monitor her to some extent since it seems like you know when she is in contact with OM? That is a good thing. I monitored W for a while, but when I re-discovered EA a month ago I lost the motivation since I realized she is going to do what she is going to do. I viewed it as a way to detatch.

If your OM was local, or if your wife had the ability to make a good living on her own I think she would be gone based on how open she is about her feelings for OM.

My W can earn a good living if she chooses to work full-time and I think that is one of the remaining things she is trying to figure out - is it worth it to leave and have to work more? So far the answer seems NO but it is hard to tell what they really think. Also, the disapproval of her family is another factor.

Question for others - Does talking about a divorce settlement in detail a good drop the rope technique? I have been getting so frustrated that I want her to start facing the end game to see if that is what she really wants, so I had seen an attorney.
BigJohn - I suggest you do the same if you haven't already?
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 06/30/09 10:41 PM
Quote:
Question for others - Does talking about a divorce settlement in detail a good drop the rope technique?


NO! And.....that's not dropping the rope!
Posted By: tryingtilDorR Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 06/30/09 11:19 PM
After I asked the question I knew the answer. I guess if I am doing it because I truly want the divorce it would be, but if I am doing it to get her to face the edge of the cliff and make a decision I am being manipulative??? In that case I guess I haven't 'dropped' anything.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/01/09 02:59 AM
Originally Posted By: tryingtilDorR
BigJohn,
I just discovered your threads and I am in a very similar situation, except that my W's OM is not in another state unfortunately. However, is is also an old HS friend and she is kind of going through what my IC calls a 're-do', which sounds like what your W is doing also. You are so lucky that they are geographically separated.

My W hasn't gone as far as yours in admitting the impact of the EA on her. She has made many contradictory commemnts, howver, like saying she had feelings for this person but then later trying to deny she said it. Lately she has toned down the contact with OM but it is still there. My boundary was no more contact EVER, and she then chose to sleep in another room because she could not promise no contact ever (they are 'friends' and she was planning on calling him after he had surgery, etc. etc.). She is only here for her kids and hasn't wanted to really work on R sine EA started last Nov.

Many of the other things your wife has said to you match my situation completely, but she hasn't been 'flaunting' the fact that she had/has an EA (she has trouble even calling it an A). I also exposed it to her family and close friends to her dismay, but they have firmly remained in my camp on all this and think she is nuts (I think this helps keep her from running).

Here are things I have done during this process that you should think about if you haven't already -

A) GAL - exercise, weightlifting, cycling, volunteer work
B) Many positive changes in myself as a result of IC and other learning htat would make a huge differeence in our R if she ever returned to it - W resents most of the change because its 'too late'
C) detatching to some extent, but we still argue about EA/OM especially after I re-discovered that EA was still happening about a month ago. I am working on this. I am starting to accept that I can't control her OM interactions. She claims she doesn't talk to him but I know texting is going on.

It sounds like you have the ability to monitor her to some extent since it seems like you know when she is in contact with OM? That is a good thing. I monitored W for a while, but when I re-discovered EA a month ago I lost the motivation since I realized she is going to do what she is going to do. I viewed it as a way to detatch.

If your OM was local, or if your wife had the ability to make a good living on her own I think she would be gone based on how open she is about her feelings for OM.

My W can earn a good living if she chooses to work full-time and I think that is one of the remaining things she is trying to figure out - is it worth it to leave and have to work more? So far the answer seems NO but it is hard to tell what they really think. Also, the disapproval of her family is another factor.

Question for others - Does talking about a divorce settlement in detail a good drop the rope technique? I have been getting so frustrated that I want her to start facing the end game to see if that is what she really wants, so I had seen an attorney.
BigJohn - I suggest you do the same if you haven't already?



TTDR,

Others such as Sandi have also commented on being somewhat surprised regarding my wife's openness. It's because she and I have always had open communication and trust in our R. Ironic I know since her EA has breeched that same trust and many of her complaints about me apparently relate back to ineffective communication between the two of us. But that is the bizzaro world we find ourselves in I guess. One point I want to clarify for everyone is that my wife is not openly flaunting the EA. What she IS doing, however, is currently refusing to end the EA and essentially being rebellious.

1. GALing: Been lifting weights and exercising two weeks every day since discovery of the EA. Dropped over 35 lbs. and feeling/looking great. Dusted off my motorcycle and have been riding with my sons every weekend. Spending lots of time with my kids playing and having fun.

2. Like you, am reading or have read several M books. I too will be in a good position to work on my MR if/when my W is ready to do so.

3. Working on detaching. Getting better with time. We haven't argued or had a R talk in over two weeks now (my prior threshold for NOT doing so) and am looking to continue extending that streak. I think the next time we have an R talk, she'll have to initiate it.

Like you, I can only monitor her to a certain extent. Probably my best tools are how well I knew my "old" wife and her behaviors as well as my own observational skills. For example, right now I've noticed that she has been depressed and moping around since about last Friday. I'm not aware of anything else that could provoke this type of reaction from her other than problems with OM- some discussion they had around Friday that went sideways. I hate to see her unhappy but these days it's always a good sign as far as me and the kids are concerned.

At this point, my W has done virtually NO due diligence regarding D at all beyond a few conversations with a few previously D'd girlfriends. She really does not have any idea the extent of devastation that a D will bring, nor do I completely believe she really wants to know. After all, that would be acknowledging REALITY and as we all know, REALITY is poison when you are trying to live a fantasy.

Regarding your question about discussing a divorce settlement with your W, I agree with Sandi, that isn't dropping the rope. Personally I have decided that if my W wants to seriously entertain D, I'm going to let her learn all of the ugly details by herself. In fact I've told her not to take my word about anything I tell her about her EA, about D, etc.- she can verify it all by herself.

Regarding seeing an attorney, I happen to work with attorneys on a regular basis in my job so I have had some informal discussions- and learned enough to know I definitely don't want a D!
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/01/09 05:47 PM
tryingtilDorR,

I went to your thread to talk to you about this. You are amoung many, many who come here trying their best to detach and drop the rope, but just haven't mastered it yet. I will talk to you about it on your thread so I don't hijack this one.

Sandi
Posted By: Kittyfish Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/01/09 06:44 PM
Originally Posted By: BigJohn
Originally Posted By: Kittyfish
You're getting great advice here!


I agree, Sandi is outstanding! Although I would like to hear more about your experience Kittyfish. As I recall, unlike Sandi's experience, there wasn't much your EX-H could do once you had decided you were "done". Thinking back, was there really NOTHING he couldn't have done to save your M? Did he pursue too much or not put in enough effort to work on his own issues? Did he not give you enough time to work things out on your own? Just curious as you and my W are close in age.


First of all, I broached the subject of a separation- which he refused. I even said, just sleep at your parents (five houses down) at night- you can be here every am for the kids and stay here until they go to bed. He refused. I have no family living near us so I couldn't. So I guess we had what I considered a in house separation. He went from not even sitting by me to wanting to be right beside me all the time. He wanted to talk relationship 24/7. Then he tried to have his family say that if I left I'd have to leave the kids- which clearly I had no intentions of doing- heck, I had raised them their whole lives- because he was always gone pursuing his hobbies. I cried for three days straight- and I mean seriously straight.

He wanted to talk to me late into the night- and I was exhausted. He barricaded me into the bedroom one night and that was my final straw. Every day he would ask "Are you staying? I cannot handle this limbo" I finally said, "No, you won't give me any space to work through this in my mind- so I want a divorce"

In addition to all his badgering and his families he made me counsel with our pastor for three hours one day and then invited the pastor over again that night- where he stayed about three more hours. I was just drained and cried out.

So, yeah, I got an apartment and moved out. He probably could have tried to show me he changed and wanted me back but he really didn't try. His tactic was to tell everyone what a WXore I was and how I had had affairs with five men and one woman (not true) etc. He even called my father to say I'd had an affair with five men!
Posted By: tryingtilDorR Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/01/09 07:31 PM
I know I don't want a D either, and my first meeting with an attorney reinforced this. However, if she is going down that road and wants to file I would want to try to negotiate with her. However, I think I will let her make the first move on this if she ever does since, after all, she wants out not me.

The OM has a criminal record and she caught me last night trying to do some research on it (email inquiries I made). I am doing it in case I need to file a restraining order to prevent contact with my kids in case she ends up leaving. She was furious. It is just a reminder, however, of how difficult things will get for her if she leaves (especially for OM).

It seems like the only R talk we have these days are over her involvement with OM (which she denies but I know she is lying). As much as I try to avoid the subject it inevitably comes up for some reason.

Have you thought about how long you are willing to go on like this? I find myself getting angrier at the fact that she has an EA more and more over time. At first I was just hurt and devastated, but now it is starting to make me angry due to humiliation and other factors, but I have to keep it in check for the sake of my kids while maintaining some dignity - it is a tough thing to do!

One thing you and I can take heart in (in a twisted way anyway) is that at least we KNOW what our wives are doing to sabotage their M (EA), whereas others are just dealing with the same symptoms but no confirmation of an EA/OM. I was almost 'relieved' when I confirmed it since it explained so many things.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/01/09 09:01 PM
Hey Kittyfish, great to hear from you!

Quote:
First of all, I broached the subject of a separation- which he refused.


My W mentioned trial separation also around late March-early April, but only after having a discussion with our/my therapist. My response was that I felt a trial separation was basically just a prelude to divorce- essentially an "open" marriage and an opportunity to further "test drive" the R with the OM. W responded back "Yeah, I'd rather just do the D." Right now, we are "emotionally separated" living in the same house and sleeping in the same bed.

Quote:
He went from not even sitting by me to wanting to be right beside me all the time. He wanted to talk relationship 24/7.


Wow, I haven't been that bad. I respected my W's physical space early on and the R talks have diminished significantly since March-April.

Quote:
I finally said, "No, you won't give me any space to work through this in my mind- so I want a divorce"


Another mistake on his part. This is what is so frustrating to me because I HAVE given my W "space" to "think things through" only to find that she has used the time to only reinforce her feelings about leaving/divorcing. Of course, her continued refusal to give up all contact with OM definitely changes the dynamics of the situation.

Quote:
He probably could have tried to show me he changed and wanted me back but he really didn't try.


I have told my W repeatedly (while in pursuit mode) that I DO want her back. I have already made significant changes and continue to improve. Despite this, my W continues to maintain the attitude that she does not care if I change or not because she is "done". Her attitude is very passive-aggressive in nature towards me and only when she drops the "wall" does she express genuine feelings of sadness/fear/anxiety about what is going on with us. When she does drop the "wall" she tells me that she feels significant anxiety about working on our M while the R with the OM "just feels right".

The OM is very clearly actively coaching and directing my W- for example, my W disclosed to me that he was "very happy" and "proud" of her when she told him of her decision/plan to eventually divorce. It is becoming increasingly clear to me that my W's relationship with OM is VERY co-dependent and that OM is very controlling of my W in his own passive-aggressive way. OM may also have issues of his own- I can't put my (middle) finger on it- maybe bipolar?

I'm trying to detach as best I can but it makes it tough the more I'm starting to discern about how sick my W's relationship with OM is (or may be). I'm beginning to wonder if detaching and giving her "space" is really the right approach given the circumstances. With my W demonstrating how weak she is towards the OM, I'm starting to feel like I may be giving up ground to the OM with my W by detaching (and thereby demonstrating no resistance). I'm concerned that in her current condition, my W may interpret my detaching as me giving up on her or not caring about her (like she think OM does). Your thoughts Kittyfish? (Sandi, feel free to comment as well.)
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/01/09 09:21 PM
Originally Posted By: tryingtilDorR
I know I don't want a D either, and my first meeting with an attorney reinforced this. However, if she is going down that road and wants to file I would want to try to negotiate with her. However, I think I will let her make the first move on this if she ever does since, after all, she wants out not me.

The OM has a criminal record and she caught me last night trying to do some research on it (email inquiries I made). I am doing it in case I need to file a restraining order to prevent contact with my kids in case she ends up leaving. She was furious. It is just a reminder, however, of how difficult things will get for her if she leaves (especially for OM).

It seems like the only R talk we have these days are over her involvement with OM (which she denies but I know she is lying). As much as I try to avoid the subject it inevitably comes up for some reason.

Have you thought about how long you are willing to go on like this? I find myself getting angrier at the fact that she has an EA more and more over time. At first I was just hurt and devastated, but now it is starting to make me angry due to humiliation and other factors, but I have to keep it in check for the sake of my kids while maintaining some dignity - it is a tough thing to do!

One thing you and I can take heart in (in a twisted way anyway) is that at least we KNOW what our wives are doing to sabotage their M (EA), whereas others are just dealing with the same symptoms but no confirmation of an EA/OM. I was almost 'relieved' when I confirmed it since it explained so many things.


TTDR,

You know, I have my good days and my bad days. Today my W has an extra skip in her step and so I know that she has spoken with OM (suspected no contact lasted about 4 days). I gotta tell you, it just pisses me off to no end how this OM scumbag is outright exploiting and manipulating my emotionally vulnerable W. Not to say there is no accountability on my W's part, because there certainly is. But the outright coaching of my W to break up my family... this guy is a complete scum. And vindictive too- he knows damn well no one in the family will support any future relationship my W has with him- certainly not my kids!

Do I know how long I can hold out? Can't say I've thought too much about it, just taking it day by day. Nor do I really want to right now- we have almost 20 years together plus we've got three beautiful children, a house along with a lot of other things that we have worked hard for all these years.

I guess there is some comfort in knowing that the destruction of our M and family will rest solely at her feet if it comes to that. I really hope it doesn't come to that though because if it does, when she hits rock bottom it's going to be excruciatingly painful for her- very, very bad. My W has a tremendous amount to lose.... while OM has NOTHING to lose.

I told her early on "Mark my words, if you see this R with(OM)to conclusion, you will come to hate (OM) for the rest of your life." And that is the truth. I'd bet my house on it. I sure hope I don't have the future opportunity to tell my W "I told you so."
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/02/09 06:49 AM
Well I did it again- another backslide tonight with an R talk with the W. Not sure if I could have avoided it though given the circumstances.

It started with a phone call I got last night from a friend who had previously had a 2 year EA/PA that ended a year ago. (He previously confided the A to me after I came crying on his shoulder after discovery of my wife's EA.) My friend was calling because he had just had an unexpected 5 minute phone conversation with his former OW and was experiencing a kind of anxiety attack- he wanted to relapse and go be with OW right then and there and needed someone to talk him down from doing so. We talked, I got him grounded and he got home safe and sound. But just listening to him explain the emotional agony he was going through really got to me. It bothered me that EVEN AFTER A YEAR, my friend knew with every fiber of his being that what he was feeling for the OW was wrong but that he was struggling with his feelings nonetheless. It made me think about my W and the problems she is already experiencing with not being able to stop communicating with OM and how much harder it may get for her as time goes on.

Fast forward to this evening. W comes into my office and we started talking about family finances and dwindling savings. W has been off work 6 months now and has shown little motivation for getting a regular part time job. (I guess I wouldn't be too motivated to get a job either, not when you can have fun in the sun with the kids and engage in a sizzling hot EA to boot.) Anyways, the discussion inevitably turns to me explaining to W that she needs to get serious about getting employed again, which then leads to me telling her she needs to get her head back in the game altogether.

So then I confide in her what happened the previous night with my friend and how it really bothered me. I know, big mistake, but I couldn't help it. I tell her that I love and care about her very much and mention that I don't want to see her experience what my friend is experiencing. I acknowledge that I understand that she doesn't like me right now, I am the bad guy and that she doesn't want to hear much of anything I have to say. I tell her anyway that I am concerned about her and the impact the sitch is having on the welfare of our family. Predictably, she states that she doesn't think the EA is a problem at all, no she is not addicted to OM, blah blah blah.

I wind up telling her that I'm just fed up with all the BS besides no physical/emotional intimacy- not being able to tell her she looks beautiful, not being able to tell her I love her, not being able to compliment her about anything, etc. These are all conditions she made previously about giving her "space"- all the things that made her feel "uncomfortable" and/or "guilty". Then we get into how she sees her EA with OM (i.e. "wonderful"/"special") so differently than everybody else and that's when I tell her how her EA really is- sleazy, unethical, etc. She responds to this by stating "That sounds really supportive."

I have to say that it is exchanges like this that make me question detaching in my sitch- at least right now- because it sure seems like detaching and giving in to the above requests are mainly helping HER. They help HER detach from me. It makes it easier and more comfortable for her to continue to engage in the EA- no resistance = no guilt/uncomfortableness. I'm all for being sympathetic towards my W and what she is experiencing, but I'm also getting tired of taking a bunch crap from her as well.

I talked to my therapist about my feelings regarding the above and she asked me why I need to make my W feel comfortable while in the midst of the EA? She (the therapist) suggested that detaching may not be the best approach right now and that perhaps I shouldn't hold back my feelings to my W- it's OK to let my W know that I'm pissed off about the sitch and I don't have to hide it. Likewise, if I want to tell my W she is beautiful and/or I love her then I should, the hell with whether it makes my W uncomfortable or not. Thoughts anyone?
Posted By: MrBond Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/02/09 08:47 AM
Yeah, don't listen to your therapist.

When it says to detach, I didn't see much detaching or giving her space on your part. You said it yourself how you opened up the R talk. You haven't given her what she specifically asked for...space. See what happens when you totally give that to her. You had only done it for maybe a couple of days then you would backslide? It's got to take longer than that.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/03/09 07:15 AM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Quote:
What if the feeling between her and OM is mutual and they both get tired of each other? What then? Just wondering if I will need to be alert to any specific indicators that may signal a need to change up what I am doing.


Well, that does happen! They may go as far as to get M. That is a reality that you have to face. "If" you stick with dropping the rope, then you won't change anything b/c you will be on your way to a new life. "If" you truly drop the rope, I don't think you will be observing her close enough to even know if the status in her R with OM is intensified or if it's failing unless she tells you that they are getting M or have broken up. That is the point of dropping the rope is that you are not involved with her personal life. You don't think about it b/c you have moved on and have you own life.

It will soon be apparent if you truly have dropped the rope or not. It is all about "attitude" and your thought process. Your focus on her drops and your attention is on other things. That's why it has to come from within you and not be an "act" or a "tool" to get her back.

I sure hope you can do it. Almost all the LBS think that they can't at first, but in time they discover that is the only route to survival and keeping their sanity.

Talk to you later,
Sandi



Sandi,

I posted earlier about a backslide that happened yesterday. Hope you get a chance to read it. I got to thinking more about how one of the things you said that got your attention was when your H told you that you would not have ANY relationship with him if your EA continued. It doesn't sound like your H himself was totally detached from your sitch yet he managed to knock a little sense in you by telling you this.

I realize that 2 1/2 weeks of detaching (or almost detaching)is not enough time to see if it is working or not in my sitch. I have to tell you though, I'm feeling really skeptical right now that it will prove effective with my W as she is 110% committed to this EA with the OM.

Initially I was pursuing, which she may not have totally liked but maybe didn't dislike because it feeds her ego and provides her with a sense of security. Looking back, I really don't think the pursuing was really that unpleasant enough for her other than it slowed down her efforts to detach from me and transfer all of her emotions to the OM (which I believe has now been accomplished.)

Then I gave her "space" to "figure everything out", time that she in turn spent R building with OM both with him and in her head while at the same time mentally demonizing me.

Now I'm trying detachment, which I agree is more for my benefit than hers but at the same time it still feels like ENABLING.

The friend I referred to in my earlier post confided in me that had his W not gone completely ballistic and made his OW life hell and his life tremendously uncomfortable, he would have NEVER given up on his A and come to his senses enough to realize what he was doing to his family. My therapist also made a comment to me that sometimes it takes a crisis within the sitch to wake up the WAW to the reality of what they are doing to their family and move towards ending the A.

One of my other hang ups with the concept of detaching is that my W and I have three kids. I'm torn because its one thing to detach to help protect myself personally, but I'm also representing our children's best interest in terms of the way I handle my W and it doesn't feel entirely right that the end result is my W feeling enabled, emboldened and comfortable continuing the EA. Puppy touched upon the issue of my W losing respect for me and my W cake eating in a prior post and I'm beginning to cede his point.

I'm willing to be very patient in applying passive techniques like detaching if there is a reasonable expectation of success at some point WITHOUT perpetual limbo. The problem is I just don't think my W is mentally and emotionally strong enough to pull out of this sitch on her own without serious negative stimulation. I really suspect that she needs to have the consequences of her apparent desire to choose an "ideal life" with the OM over me (and the kids) spelled out for her in a very sharp contrast.

(As a side note, I do believe that my W is very co-dependent on the OM in terms of her decision making. Specifically I think that a big factor rests in whether the OM commits to M- a very big deal for him since he would have to relocate to our state because of our kids. Only then would W move to D before quickly M the OM.)

Any thoughts out there would be greatly appreciated.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/03/09 08:24 PM
Hey Friend,

Okay, guess we better have one of our talks, yes? (Oh my, I didn't mean to sound so arrogant!) I do see you as a friend and I do want to help you b/c I know you are in terrible pain and need encouragement. That is what you want more than me telling you all that you did wrong. I can tell you this.....I came so close to leaving my M of 40+ years that I practically had my hand on the doorknob......but I didn't leave, Big John. I didn't leave! Sweetie, it takes so much time for this stinking mess to heal up and get back to what is almost normal again. Just pray to God that she "heals" and doesn't D you. Okay, so let me back up to some things you have posted....

Quote:
With my W demonstrating how weak she is towards the OM, I'm starting to feel like I may be giving up ground to the OM with my W by detaching (and thereby demonstrating no resistance). I'm concerned that in her current condition, my W may interpret my detaching as me giving up on her or not caring about her (like she think OM does).


So, you already had this "mind-thought" before you had your major backslide with your W in your office. Know what this is? It is "fear" and "impatient". I figure you have your nickname of "Big" John for a reason. Maybe John is nowhere close to your real name, but I have a feeling that the "Big" may refer to your built......maybe.....but I personally think of "Big" John as being a STRONG man. Some silly young females may think that physical strength is attractive in men, but as we women get some maturity under our belts, we discover that those muscles don't mean much if they don't have what they need on the "inside". It is who the man is in his spirit that makes the real difference. I believe you are a big man in your spirit, John. Yes, you are feeling weak and out of control at this point in time, but that does not mean you are losing ground or that you are a failure, and it sure doesn't mean that "you" are weak in any sense of speaking. I bet you are like so many others who are a "fixer" and it is killing your soul b/c you cannot "fix" this stitch! I understand, b/c I am a natural born fixer myself. I had to learn the hard way in several other situations, that I could not fix a lot of things....and especially, "people". Oh, it is soooo hard! But you know what? Learn...I did. The School of Hard Knocks is a bad place to graduate from! (Notice I ended my sentence with a preposition? It's b/c the School of Hard Knocks isn't about grammer! ;))

Now let's look at that last part of your quote. You are concerned that your W will think you don't care about her like the OM does. But didn't you try that in the very beginning??? Didn't you discover that pursuing doesn't work? Every LBH automatically starts to pursue b/c that is the nature God gave him and he is doing what comes naturally. But the nature God gave man was to be used in a "positive" arrangement when the male is seducing the female in hopes of M. I personally think it is natural for a female to be the "responder" but I know a lot of women pursue, so I won't argue the point right now. My "point" is that your stitch is out of whack from what is suppose to be normal, so you can't do what "feels" normal.....which is to pursue her.

Quote:
I realize that 2 1/2 weeks of detaching (or almost detaching)is not enough time to see if it is working or not in my sitch. I have to tell you though, I'm feeling really skeptical right now that it will prove effective with my W as she is 110% committed to this EA with the OM.


2 1/2 weeks is nothing when one looks at the entire scope of things. But it is h3ll for the LBH and he feels like it has been an eternity!

You are allowing the "fear" to consume you when you see her step pick up and know it is b/c she had her drug fix from OM. You are right when you say she's down when she's not been around him or they may have had a spat, then she's "up" when she's had her ego food from OM. I've been there. That is why the break-up in the A is so bad b/c of the period of time that the W has to go through that are like--"withdrawals" from her OM (just like withdrawals from a drug).

This conversation with your friend fed your fear:
Quote:
It bothered me that EVEN AFTER A YEAR, my friend knew with every fiber of his being that what he was feeling for the OW was wrong but that he was struggling with his feelings nonetheless. It made me think about my W and the problems she is already experiencing with not being able to stop communicating with OM and how much harder it may get for her as time goes on.


After that, your natural instincts kicked, again, in to "fix" your W. Doesn't work. Look, BJ, I am just like you about that kind of thing. I KNOW how much you think if you could only point this out to her and get her to "see" the outcome that she would think logically and come to her senses! She won't think logically. I don't believe she CAN think logically in this crises she's in. You fell back into seeing her as the woman she used to be. Remember, she's not that girl now. You panicked after talking to your friend, and I can certainly understand why. It is statements like his that started putting the brakes on for "me" when I heard stuff like that. However, I was already seeking some help at the time I discovered those statements......you have to bear that in mind. Plus, I was a lot older than your W and I think my stitch was a bit out of the norm compared to the usual age range for most WAW's.......not that a woman couldn't leave her M at "any" age, but you know what I mean.

Quote:
but I couldn't help it.


Sorry, sweetie, but I disagree. You CAN help it and you BETTER begin "helping it" by stopping this sort of confrontations with your W. Don't use that excuse that "you can help it" b/c you are a man who can make choices for himself. Right? (I knew it was a form of speaking, but I wanted to point that out, anyway.) smirk

What you told your W was very touching. But, my H told me the same thing. He told me how "precious" I was. I'll never forget it. I felt like slime. I was so ashamed. But, it did not make me stop my sexual EA on line with OM. Can you believe that? See the power that it has over a person? But, like you....I had free will and I could make my own decisions....nobody forced me to continue my EA....I "wanted" to continue it, even after my H poured his heart out to me. So will your W.

Quote:
Then we get into how she sees her EA with OM (i.e. "wonderful"/"special")so differently than everybody else


Hummmm, yep, just like when she was in high school.

Quote:
that's when I tell her how her EA really is- sleazy, unethical, etc.


She can't think logically. No use in trying to point it out.

See what I mean:
Quote:
She responds to this by stating "That sounds really supportive."
Now really, she is looking for her H of 20 years to support her feelings over another man?? That proves what I'm saying.

Quote:
detaching and giving in to the above requests are mainly helping HER. They help HER detach from me. It makes it easier and more comfortable for her to continue to engage in the EA- no resistance = no guilt/uncomfortableness. detaching and giving in to the above requests are mainly helping HER. They help HER detach from me. It makes it easier and more comfortable for her to continue to engage in the EA- no resistance = no guilt/uncomfortableness. I'm all for being sympathetic towards my W and what she is experiencing, but I'm also getting tired of taking a bunch crap from her as well.


NO, NO, NO! Listen, you aren't thinking rationally here. Let me back up and say that you aren't thinking like a DBer. You are so stressed that your mind is almost in the condition hers is in. frown You think that if you leave her alone and give her space that she will be freed up to indulge more in her A. Am I understanding you right? First of all, you are not holding her back from indulging in "anything". Secondly, she wants your "blessings" on her A, which is stupid and shows how messed up she is. Thirdly, you said no resistance = no guilt, etc. I don't personally see where your W feels guilty at all. The woman is openly talking to her HUSBAND about her A, for gosh sakes. Where do you get thinking your pursuing would be any resistance? It sure as heck isn't going to make you "attractive" to her! The only "resistance" will be what holds her back mentally & emotionally.....and that my dear friend will be the ATTRACTION/RESPECT that she feels toward you!! (Oh...I'm typing so hard my fingers hurt... mad)

I'm not really mad....just put that little face up there to make a point. I do wish I could reach through this computer and shake you! Do you think that would help snap you out of it and wake you up to your senses anymore than you are hoping your WAW will snap out of her fog and wake up to her senses?

Okay, this part: "I'm all for being sympathetic towards my W and what she is experiencing, but I'm also getting tired of taking a bunch crap from her as well". Maybe I am to blame for you thinking you should be "sympathetic", I hope not. I meant for you to "understand" what she is experiencing.....not that you should should just lay down and accept whatever she dished out to you and "take a bunch of crap from her". That is not it at all--and I sure hope I did not give you that wrong idea in my posts.... sick As a WAW, I mearly want to help LBH's get a better idea of what works and what doesn't work with the W. I can tell you that my H pursued big time. He suddenly started showing me attention (to the point of smothering me) for the first time in YEARS......and I couldn't handle it. Which I had previously "wanted" that attention, but he wouldn't give it to me.) It made me want to throw-up. Graphic, I know, but that is the effects it had on my emotions. So, will you believe me when I tell you that detaching is the ONLY way that works with a WAW?

Quote:
She (the therapist) suggested that detaching may not be the best approach right now and that perhaps I shouldn't hold back my feelings to my W- it's OK to let my W know that I'm pissed off about the sitch and I don't have to hide it.


Well, your therapist is wrong! Yeah, she may have some initials behind her name but it doesn't make her wise. First, let me point out that you are not exactly suppose to "hold back" feelings......I think you have this all screwed up. crazy DB teaches us not to "show" a negative attitude and to keep a PMA around the WAS as much as possible b/c that is what works. It does not mean that you are go give any indication that you are happy about her EA. It does not mean that you are suppose to show her support in her wrong-doing. It is teaching you how to be a better person, and one that people in general like to be around. Do you want to be around a person who is exploding their anger on you all the time, telling you what you do wrong and how upset they are by your actions? Do you want to be around a person who is crabby and negative? I don't think so. You've explain....how many times....to her how you feel about the stitch. Do you think it didn't take and you have to go over & over your feelings about it untill it does "take"? That is not the "tool" one uses in these types of situations. It is the wrong tool and the job won't get done using the wrong tool trying to fix what's broken.

Quote:
Likewise, if I want to tell my W she is beautiful and/or I love her then I should, the hell with whether it makes my W uncomfortable or not.


NO, BIG JOHN.....NO! NO! NO! This is not the right track. It is NOT about making her comfortable or not, okay? Forget what she told you about her being uncomfortable......FORGET IT!! I'm telling you what works in DB. You are scared out of your mind. Get a grip and settle down and listen to me....please. You want to tell her that she's beautiful and you love her, etc., b/c you are living in a...."panic palace"...and you need to move out of that place and find a "peaceful riverside"! You cannot think properly when living in panic palace and you act out of emotions. You must act out of "knowledge" and that's what we are trying to give you here on the board. If you express these feelings for her, it will have the same affect on her as it did when my H told his feelings for me. Is that what you want? You don't care about how uncomfortable she may feel? Well, do you care that telling her you love her will make her want to vomit? Would that make you feel better? B/c I don't think this is about what makes her feel comfortable or uncomfortable......I THINK IT IS ABOUT YOUR COMFORT! WHAT MAKES YOU FEEL BETTER! Now, I know I feel better after yelling that at you. I hope you "get it", Big John, I truly hope you get it.

Please listen to the people who have actually experienced first hand the whole thing. You may have tried to detach in 2 1/2 weeks....but you really didn't. You may have pulled back some, but you never "detached". As long as she has you hooked this badly...emotionally......then you are tied to that rope! All I can do is keep telling you that if you'll break free of that hold and drop the rope......you will be at peace, respect yourself, become attractive, and you'll be able to move forward (with or without her).

You have two choices. Becoming the man I just described.....or being like a whimp who follows his W around telling her how much he loves her & how beautiful she is, while he watches to see if she throws out a crumb his way. Of course, she won't! Then he'll get all angry and "express" his outlook about her A, but she doesn't stop b/c she doesn't respect what he has become.

So, the choice is yours, Big John. It always was. You can believe that so-called expert...therapist, or you can believe Michele W. Davis, (a real expert), who has had a life-time study of these cases and written books and been on shows, etc. You can accept the word of us who have, and "are" living through what we have tried to describe to you. It's all about choices and freedom.

I pray you will do what you need to do.

Take care,
Sandi
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/04/09 08:45 AM
Quote:
I do see you as a friend and I do want to help you b/c I know you are in terrible pain and need encouragement. That is what you want more than me telling you all that you did wrong. I can tell you this.....I came so close to leaving my M of 40+ years that I practically had my hand on the doorknob......but I didn't leave, Big John. I didn't leave! Sweetie, it takes so much time for this stinking mess to heal up and get back to what is almost normal again. Just pray to God that she "heals" and doesn't D you.


Sandi, Thank you for another great post and the wallops with the 2 x 4. I needed them. You are such a blessing to all of us LBHs. Thank you very much for your continued interest in my sitch. Having that family finances talk with my W on the heels of me dealing with my friend's crisis was just too much for me and I blew it.

I do want her to heal, but I don't see that happening until OM is out of the picture. Unfortunately we really can no longer avoid discussing the need for her to get back to work. It has to happen as we are too financially overextended at this time to only live on my paycheck.

Quote:
So, you already had this "mind-thought" before you had your major backslide with your W in your office. Know what this is? It is "fear" and "impatient". I figure you have your nickname of "Big" John for a reason. Maybe John is nowhere close to your real name, but I have a feeling that the "Big" may refer to your built......maybe.....but I personally think of "Big" John as being a STRONG man. Some silly young females may think that physical strength is attractive in men, but as we women get some maturity under our belts, we discover that those muscles don't mean much if they don't have what they need on the "inside". It is who the man is in his spirit that makes the real difference. I believe you are a big man in your spirit, John.


Agreed, looking back now it was fear and impatience that got the better of me.

You are right about me, physically I am a big, strong guy. I am also very strong willed and very confident in myself. As much as I love my W and want my M to survive, if it does not, at least at the end of this process I will be in a much better place to recover and be the man I want to be. Despite the power my W has over me because of my love for her, even she cannot break my spirit.

Quote:
After that, your natural instincts kicked, again, in to "fix" your W. Doesn't work. Look, BJ, I am just like you about that kind of thing. I KNOW how much you think if you could only point this out to her and get her to "see" the outcome that she would think logically and come to her senses! She won't think logically. I don't believe she CAN think logically in this crises she's in. You fell back into seeing her as the woman she used to be.


Your right, this is a REALLY tough thing for me to accept and something I continue to struggle with. She can't think clearly to pull herself out of this mess by herself. This fantasy of hers has no chance of succeeding, it's a damn DISASTER in the making if she continues down this path...there are no winners. The prospect of her dragging the kids and I to jump off the proverbial cliff with her just drives me wild. Good grief!!

Quote:
However, I was already seeking some help at the time I discovered those statements......you have to bear that in mind.


I know you mentioned reading books (I presume you were referring to "Women's Infidelity") that scared you enough to want to stop your EA. What other things brought about a desire in you to stop your EA? Was there a particular pivotal moment that sparked your interest in wanting to stop the EA?

Quote:
The only "resistance" will be what holds her back mentally & emotionally.....and that my dear friend will be the ATTRACTION/RESPECT that she feels toward you!!


I agree, especially with regards to the issue of respect. I think an important part with respect is establishing some good boundaries, but I'm not sure where to start. I'd like some ideas on this beyond "turn off her cell phone".

Quote:
Now, I know I feel better after yelling that at you. I hope you "get it", Big John, I truly hope you get it.

Please listen to the people who have actually experienced first hand the whole thing. You may have tried to detach in 2 1/2 weeks....but you really didn't. You may have pulled back some, but you never "detached". As long as she has you hooked this badly...emotionally......then you are tied to that rope! All I can do is keep telling you that if you'll break free of that hold and drop the rope......you will be at peace, respect yourself, become attractive, and you'll be able to move forward (with or without her).


Don't worry Sandi you haven't lost me. I will stick with your advice and resume detaching. It is getting easier DB-ing as time goes on.

Quote:
You have two choices. Becoming the man I just described.....or being like a whimp who follows his W around telling her how much he loves her & how beautiful she is, while he watches to see if she throws out a crumb his way. Of course, she won't! Then he'll get all angry and "express" his outlook about her A, but she doesn't stop b/c she doesn't respect what he has become.


No wimps here. I am back in the saddle, ready to get back to work. Thanks again Sandi. Talk to you soon.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/04/09 05:31 PM
Hi BJ,

You are sounding much better today.

Quote:
What other things brought about a desire in you to stop your EA? Was there a particular pivotal moment that sparked your interest in wanting to stop the EA?


I have that asked by LBH's a lot. It wasn't like a scene out of a movie where a particular incident happened that knocked me on my backside. When I came on the board here, I was fortunate enough that the "right people" came to my thread and I mean they were hitting me with 2x4's like you wouldn't believe. However, they threw enough true concern in their posts that I could handle what that tough love. I also got those E-Books I told you about around the time I first came here. So, it was like I was being flooded with the information I needed. However, with all of that going through my mind.....it still took time for me to "finally" let go of OM for good. The "process" of ending it is more than just saying good-bye or deleting his email, etc. It is what the WAW has to do within her own mind/soul. That, in my case, was not a "particular pivotal moment". It seems as if it should be, doesn't it? But, all this information and daily stuff has to continue to "build" inside of the WAW and finally I began to accept the decision I knew I had to make. Then.....the painful follow-through with that big decision. So again....I hate to tell you that it is that old four letter word you despise.....TIME.

BTW, I also read "The Walk Out Woman" and that was helpful to me. I think it would be very helpful for LBH's to read to understand how their WAW is feeling.

Quote:
I think an important part with respect is establishing some good boundaries, but I'm not sure where to start. I'd like some ideas on this beyond "turn off her cell phone".


That's a hard one for me as a former WAW. Puppy Dog Tails is your man to help understand and get ideas for "boundaries". I do know that you can't talk to her like you were her father and use that tone of voice with her. Man, she will fight you to the death, if you try that. It's a fine line. Puppy told his W that under no circumstances was she to contact OM in the presence of the children. She was not to contact him (TM or call, etc.) in front or him (Pup). In other words, you can't control her sneaking around and doing things behind your back, but you can control her showing disrespect right in front of you. I would think it would be hard where the kids are concerned b/c they would actually have to tell you if Mom was TM or calling OM for you to know, but I agree with Pup that it is highly disrepectful for a WAW to do that.

Another time Puppy's W came in around 2:00 AM once and he told her if she ever did that again, she would find the house locked.....and I can't remember the rest of it. I wondered if she didn't have a key or if he would change the locks, but he told her she'd have to get by the best way she could....so I guess he would have changed the locks while she was out... grin

It all goes back to her doing things that "openly" shows disrespect toward you, as her H. If she is our running around town at 2:00 AM, then people see her and it is a reflection on you as her H. She has to suffer some type of consequenses for her actions and it has to be severe enough that the enjoyment she would have received from her running around was not worth her consequences. Just like we discpline our kids with suffering consequenses.

You can't demand that she stop all contact with OM, b/c she won't. You have to lay certain things out in "steps" for her. Like a plan to go by. Puppy would tell his W that he did not intend to live in an "open M" and that was why he would not have sex with his W until she stopped her PA. He does advise men to sleep in the marital bed and let the W make the decision to sleep elsewhere "if" she doesn't want to share a bed with him. But this is a sign of him being the "head" of his home and that it was not "him" that is WW. (These are my words...not Pup's)

If you contact Puppy, he could give you better ideas to help you.

Quote:
No wimps here. I am back in the saddle, ready to get back to work.


YES! laugh

Hope you have a good 4th.

Sandi
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/05/09 06:15 PM
Hey Sandi, great to hear back from you, hope you had a good 4th of July. Our family had a pretty nice time ourselves. Not too many distractions, except once, while we all waited in the car for 15 minutes for my W to get off the damn phone with OM. I'm pretty sure she was texting him back and forth throughout the evening as well but I didn't pay attention, just had fun with the kids.

Anyways, I wanted to follow up with you a little bit regarding my first question in my prior post:

Quote:
What other things brought about a desire in you to stop your EA? Was there a particular pivotal moment that sparked your interest in wanting to stop the EA?


You mentioned getting good feedback on the boards here and also reading the E-books that gave you information which started you down the road of letting the OM go. But before all of that happened, something- or maybe several "somethings"- occurred which piqued your curiosity that led you to do these things. I'm very interested in knowing what that trigger (or combination of triggers) was/were. Was it something someone said to you (for example, either OM or H)? Something you read? Something that happened? Were these triggers direct, indirect or both? Subtle or not so subtle?


Quote:
When I came on the board here, I was fortunate enough that the "right people" came to my thread and I mean they were hitting me with 2x4's like you wouldn't believe. However, they threw enough true concern in their posts that I could handle what that tough love.


I agree, the people on the boards here are terrific! But why do you think that the people here were more effective in reaching you than your own friends/family? What is maddening about my sitch is that EVERYONE is telling my W to give me a chance and to work on her M! From what I am gathering, the majority of friends/family members are also telling her she is making a BIG mistake continuing this EA and risking her M to me. Even my W admits that NO ONE in our life wants us to D. Our issues, while important, are just not enough to justify D... AT ALL. Yet, she cannot let OM go and just keeps saying our M "is over".

Quote:
However, with all of that going through my mind.....it still took time for me to "finally" let go of OM for good. The "process" of ending it is more than just saying good-bye or deleting his email, etc. It is what the WAW has to do within her own mind/soul. That, in my case, was not a "particular pivotal moment". It seems as if it should be, doesn't it? But, all this information and daily stuff has to continue to "build" inside of the WAW and finally I began to accept the decision I knew I had to make. Then.....the painful follow-through with that big decision. So again....I hate to tell you that it is that old four letter word you despise.....TIME.


Wow... taking those steps yourself to "detoxify" sounds like WORK which could be a major problem for my W should she chose to eventually take the same steps. My W does not like hard work, she is a path of least resistance person by nature. BTW, I'm assuming that the longer the EA goes on the longer it will take for my W to recover if she chooses to do so. How long did your EA go for relative to your recovery?


As always, thanks Sandi.

[/quote]
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/06/09 01:02 AM
Quote:
But why do you think that the people here were more effective in reaching you than your own friends/family?


As far as I know, none of our friends knew anything. My mother knew and I found out our grown D knew. My D may have told my S....but I could not bear to deal with that knowledge right at that time. You have to understand that my background was one of very religious and moral upbringing. My life had been built on the Church. My activities were all around the Church. So, try to imagine how my "fall" was eating me up alive. I was able to tune the Church & God out for a while. I had health problems that I could use for an "excuse" to miss services and stay home. But, after time went by, my guilt in knowing I was living in disobedience to God, was eating me up.

There are actually spaces of time in all of that that are almost like it has been "blacked out". I don't mean to try to be dramatic, but it is kind of hard for me to remember what order some things went. That shows you that it truly effects the mind of a WAW. The term, "fog" is for a reason. It is a "crises" mode they are in and she isn't herself and doesn't/can't seem to function like she use to.

I have to say that it was not one particular event--or a conversation from anyone. It was all of it working together...and the "timing" that this all happened, I believe, was very important. I will be as honest with you as I can and tell you that my greatest fear above everyting was the news getting out into the community and "me" being the focus of a lot of gossip. I felt that my family would be lose their good name in the community and the Church.....not just "me". People talk about how selfish WAS are, and that's true, but I did not want my family to suffer humiliation from gossip and from what I had done. It still sounds crazy to try to put it into words and probably every LBS is thinking I'm a hypocrite. I remembering thinking that IF it got out, then I would HAVE to leave town! And, I am convinced that I would have.

I knew my family would be terribly embarrassed if it got out about my EA. But, the real kicker came the day my D told me that she "knew" about my EA. I will never forget that day as long as I live. I got so sick when she told me and I didn't know how I could look at her. She knew I had been going through something emotional and I had almost had a "melt-down" in front of her, my H, and my GS shortly before she told me of her knowledge. She couldn't stand seeing what I was doing to myself (is what she told me). We never talked about it after that day. I know that a lot of people would think that wasn't the way to handle things but when I decided to stay in my M, I did tell my son & daughter, and thay were happy and that was all we discussed. The problem was between me and their dad.....not them. BTW, I had told my S (and I "think" it was right before my D informed me she knew.....but I'm not sure).....that I was thinking about leaving his dad. He nearly passed out from shock. But I had never told him about OM involved. My D probably did, but like I said....I did not discuss it. The first thing my S asked was if his dad was running around on me. I could see his "protectiveness" kick in for his mom. I just told him we were having a lot of personal problems and he said he should have realized b/c we had gotten where we would argue in front of them, which we never did when they were growing up.

If the fact that I did not talk to them about what happen, had been a problem in our R with my children, then of course I would, but my children are grown with families of their own, so it's not like they are little kids at home. Everyone has to do what they feel like is best for their stitch. If it ever comes up in our conversation, then I will talk more about it.

I had realized way back in the A that I could not support myself and that was why I was still living under the same roof with H. I took "risks" about the EA that I would never have taken if I had been in my normal frame of mind. I told myself that if it got out that I would just go to OM b/c he had said he'd come get me and take care of me. I was so stupid to not realize that as soon as he was tired of me, he'd kick me out on the street! Another way that shows the WAW is not using her thought process normally.

The talk between my D and I was very short....but powerful. I asked her if she thought it was too late and if her dad still loved me. I will never forget the look in her eyes. She said, "Daddy? Still love you? Oh, Mom!" Then she started crying. She had not shed a tear before then. She did not know of another man who loved their W as much as her dad loved me. (Of course, this is noramal for her to think that..I believe....but it helped me to hear it, never-the-less.)

I can see the impact it would have when WAW's are "exposed" to family. However, in my stitch, if it had happened the way I read about some here on the board.....I promise you it would have backfired in a huge and terrible way. I will always believe that the timing was just like it needed to be for me to be able to start seeing through the fog and to realize what I "had" to do. No, my emotions did not go along with my decision at that time. But, I had learned enough through the Church to know that if we make a decision based on what is the right thing to do, then the feelings/emotions will follow later. Mine came much, much later!

That is why I have strong feelings about "exposure" and I can see where in some cases it has to be done as a LRT in order to bust the A. But, I do not believe it is grounds for a success MR. If there is going to be exposure, then the LBS needs to realize that it is strickly to bust up the A and not a means to get the WAS back into their arms again. Exposure is very ugly and hurts a lot of innoncent people. My mother's health has gone down so rapidly since she was told. Am I do blame? Absolutely! But I don't think it was neccessary for her to be told. Not to protect me, but her. She is very elderly and why put her through that b/c of vindictivness. And....that was why my H told her. I would not tell my H's parents that he was addicted to porn. (Which I'm only using here as an example.) But do you see what I mean? The porn addiction would cause a problem in our MR and may even cause us to split, but I would not do that to his parents. I see it as a personal or private issue between the M couple. In some R's where gambling or drinking is the problem that is tearing the family apart.....that has already been made "public". Maybe it is the way I was raised, that you didn't talk about private matters between H & W. But, I am concerned that the advice to "expose" to Newcomers is being taken and applied before the WAW can even have time to try to work through her issues. For an example, one young man took that advice within the first 24 hourse of discovering his W's EA. He was angry and told out of spite. Now, he sees where his W is cold and angry toward him and he has more problems than he had b/c of the exposure. What was an EA could very easily turn into a PA b/c she could think that if everyone knows, she might as well go all the way. That is what he's concerned about....now. But...the sad thing is that he had already advised some "other" Newcomers to expose. So, it can be given too quickly and people react before the "timing" is right.

I want to make this perfectly clear.....I do believe that if the WAS is flaunting an A, then by all means, expose it.....b/c the WAS has already done the exposing anyway, when they made it public. I do not think a LBS should put up with a PA for one second when the WAS has flaunted it in their faces. But if it can be settled privately, then I still think that is the way it should be handled. At least I do not fear looking at people and wondering if they have heard and what they are thinking about me. I know my children love me and forgive me, but others would not be so willing. My mother loves and forgives, but her disappointment in me was too much for a lady her age to take. I will have to live with that for the rest of my life.

I went beyond answering the question you had for me... blush but this was on my heart, so I shared it. Hope it helps you in some way.

Take care,
Sandi

Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/06/09 05:15 PM
Sandi,

Thank you for sharing your experience, it sort of confirmed what I suspected about the process leading up to a WAW's potential "awakening"- many variables combining together along with the timing. Not that I want to get away from the most important variable in my sitch (improving myself), I was just curious about other external influences that eventually changed your sitch in your H's favor. Such influences can't be that random can they? Aside from DBing, the only other significant influence I've read about thus far on the boards is when the WAW is faced with the enormity of the D, then they maybe question what they are doing and don't act on it- setting the stage for Limbo.

Anyways, another question for you. Something I'm having a problem with in my DBing is being noticeably upbeat/positive and/or friendly around my W when I'm feeling less than happy about our sitch. Specifically, this is when we are alone together. When we are around others or having fun somewhere- no problem. What I am finding is that I am able to default to not speaking to her and being neutral- not displaying any outward emotions. I'm not deliberately trying to be cold to her, it just seems to be the easiest way for me to deal with her at the present time this way. So far, she hasn't initiated much conversation during these times, so I don't know how awkward she may or may not feel about it. Something that got me thinking about this was when she told me a couple of R talks ago that she felt like she was "living with Mr. Spock"- her response to my attempts to talk rationally with her.

I am finding that I can be consistently respectful and considerate to my W, but being openly friendly to her is a big challenge given the way she is treating me. Any thoughts on how I might be able to overcome this?
Posted By: Gardener Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/07/09 03:45 AM
BigJohn,

Originally Posted By: BigJohn
What I am finding is that I am able to default to not speaking to her and being neutral- not displaying any outward emotions. I'm not deliberately trying to be cold to her, it just seems to be the easiest way for me to deal with her at the present time this way.


Could you not view this simply as a step in detaching?
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/07/09 03:59 AM
I think it is perfectly normal to feel akward when it is just the two of you. When around others, you have the distraction of "them" to use as your focus. When it is only the two of you, the stitch is what is on your mind to the point of not being able to think of something else to say. That is one reason that couples get into a R talk so easily. That and the fact their emotions are still running wild.

Might sound kind of silly, but you might jot some things down as you think about them. Then when you are with her, maybe your mind will remember the things you wrote down. Worth a shot, don't you think?

Take care,
Sandi
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/07/09 03:33 PM
Originally Posted By: Gardener
BigJohn,

Originally Posted By: BigJohn
What I am finding is that I am able to default to not speaking to her and being neutral- not displaying any outward emotions. I'm not deliberately trying to be cold to her, it just seems to be the easiest way for me to deal with her at the present time this way.


Could you not view this simply as a step in detaching?


Agreed. It is mainly an issue simply because it is so out of character for me and our relationship. Then again, my W's EA is completely out of character for her.

BTW, checked out your thread- looks like it might have locked? Anyways was so busy replying on the snooping question that I forgot your W was out of the house- ouch.
That certainly makes things much more difficult trying to ascertain if there is currently OM. However it stands to reason that if there was/is a OM she would have been in contact with him before she moved out. So the suggestions I made in my prior post might still be worth pursuing if your looking to confirm this to understand what you may be up against.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/07/09 03:34 PM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
I think it is perfectly normal to feel akward when it is just the two of you. When around others, you have the distraction of "them" to use as your focus. When it is only the two of you, the stitch is what is on your mind to the point of not being able to think of something else to say. That is one reason that couples get into a R talk so easily. That and the fact their emotions are still running wild.

Might sound kind of silly, but you might jot some things down as you think about them. Then when you are with her, maybe your mind will remember the things you wrote down. Worth a shot, don't you think?

Take care,
Sandi



Sandi,

I'll give that a try. Thanks.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/08/09 04:08 PM
Hey Sandi.

Well another backslide last night. We started talking about our financial situation, then about how my W has not been actively looking for a regular part time job since losing her job and becoming involved in the EA. Apparently a factor in not doing so is this plan of hers to travel back to her home state in August for a couple of weeks to visit with her family- and go out on dates with OM. I told her we simply can't afford it financially (or otherwise), she became adamant that it's going to happen- according to her this trip is going to play a crucial part in making her final decision regarding our M- and we began to argue.

During the course of our conversation/argument, she provided information indicating that the OM had recently told her he no longer wanted her in his life, that he felt my W was using him as a crutch to get out of her M to me. Apparently he stopped contact with my W for a couple days before resuming contact because according to my W he loves her.

My W basically acknowledged that she is using OM as he suspects and indicated that she wants OMs emotional support in working towards divorcing me as she doesn't want to try to deal with it on her own. I also got the distinct impression that OM has been verbally abusive towards her- when I asked her if she thought OM really respected her she wouldn't answer. I'm starting to think that maybe she is starting to drive him crazy as well with her talk of "It's (M) over, I don't want to work on it" and "I want a R with you (OM)" but no movement whatsoever regarding D. (I know, if true this would be a good thing.) Presumably my W's plan for the trip in August is to solidify OM's support for her through some degree of physical affection.

I tried to approach my W last night from the standpoint that despite our current M problems we are still business partners and we need her to get employed again. What is frustrating is that her lack of motivation in this regard is like everything else in that it is interwoven with the EA and the OM. I just don't know how to handle our financial situation and her employment situation under the circumstances. Time is not on our side here, our savings are almost gone and she needs to get employed again. Even if/when she does get employed again, it is going to take us some time to get back on our feet financially- and that means we aren't going to be in a position to separate for some time to come.

This is one area that is holding me back from really detaching from my W. Any ideas on how to work on these specific issues with my W would be appreciated.
Posted By: MrBond Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/08/09 07:03 PM
Don't sacrifice your and your childrens' finances for your W's actions. Is there any way you can lock up your assets so she can't get to them?

Tell her that she is more than welcome to go. However she must find her own way to pay for it because you are saving the money for the children to LIVE on. Refuse to give her a single penny. Change the accounts if need be, but protect yourself.

Maybe setup a small account that's just for her with SOME money inside as an act of good faith, but tell her that she can only deposit and withdraw from that account. Your problem is that you are talking to her like a reasonable adult. She is not. She is a spoiled teenager who is crying when she doesn't get what she wants. You have to be the responsible one. Just do all this very calmly and matter of factly. Talk to her as if you were talking to one of your kids.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/09/09 12:55 AM
Originally Posted By: stuck808
Don't sacrifice your and your childrens' finances for your W's actions. Is there any way you can lock up your assets so she can't get to them?

Tell her that she is more than welcome to go. However she must find her own way to pay for it because you are saving the money for the children to LIVE on. Refuse to give her a single penny. Change the accounts if need be, but protect yourself.

Maybe setup a small account that's just for her with SOME money inside as an act of good faith, but tell her that she can only deposit and withdraw from that account. Your problem is that you are talking to her like a reasonable adult. She is not. She is a spoiled teenager who is crying when she doesn't get what she wants. You have to be the responsible one. Just do all this very calmly and matter of factly. Talk to her as if you were talking to one of your kids.


Hey Stuck,

Thank you for the feedback. The main issue with my W right now is a lack of motivation- associated with the EA- in looking for a job. Beyond this, she has yet to do anything significant that could be considered financially irresponsible. I will cross that bridge if/when I get to it.

I just can't sit idle while we start to crumble financially. I need her to get her head back in the game enough to function and get employed. Everything else I'm pretty sure I can achieve detachment with.
Posted By: MrBond Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/09/09 01:26 AM
Well I would say that your W wanting to leave to date another guy is a pretty damn big financial irresponsibility.

It comes down to this...the money is for BOTH your lives and your kids'. Not just yours and not just hers. All you're doing is protecting that.

You can't control the storm that your W is kicking up. But what you can do is lock the storeroom (finances) shield your kids and buckle down until her storm ends. Her storm will get worse with things flying around, dark skies, thunder and lightning, etc. But you are BigJohn. You are the rock that will not be moved no matter how bad the storm is.

You know what happens to things when they try to go head to head with a storm. They get blown away. And that's what you've been doing with your W. Instead, do the opposite and let her rage, not you. Let her get upset, not you. Let her seem like the idiot, spoiled teenager, not you. In the future, when your kids look back at how you acted now, you want them to be proud and say "that was my dad"! Just think how they're going to look at their mom. Makes you want to laugh.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/10/09 06:10 PM
BJ, I'm trying to see this in my WAW mode. All she can do is fantasize about OM. Remember when I told you that no man could live up to her fantasy.....includingher OM? I am not suggesting for a second that you finance her trip. But, I am wondering if she saw him, if that would zap her out of that fantasy limbo she's in. From what you've said about his treatment of her, that sounds good for you! I think you are so hurt & angry, you might not see the possibilities here. If the OM is tired of her and verbally disrespecting her, how do you think he may treat her in person? Well, the truth is--it is a huge gamble....but I think she is planning to take this trip at any price. Just my thinking. She "has got" to see him and get a taste of what being with him would be like. Now, what is terrifying to you is the thought of them having sex. Let's be real here. That SOB would probably use her just to get sex! Then he'll dump her. Would you be willing to see that happen if you knew it would save your M? Well....let me put it another way. What could you really do about it if she's made up her mind? Oh, I'm sure you can think of all types of ways to prevent it taking place......just as most men do on matters like this. But, those ways could end with the M in the dumpster. It depends on whether or not the trip and them being togehter would be a "deal breaker" for you. If she goes to see this OM and she gets a good look at what he really is....there might be a tiny chance in her coming back home...ready to love the man who she's M to. This could be the deciding point in both of your lives. You have no power in what she does, but you have power in how you will emotionally deal with the results.

I can hear you now saying, "Sandi, are you actually asking me to sit back and watch my W have a PA with OM and do nothing about it?" No, I'm not asking you to do anything, BJ. I am just talking out loud. This is something, however, I think you "will" have to face b/c I think she "will" go. So, you need to decide if you can act like a hateful, enraged a$$ of a man and try to do everything in your power to physically stop her from going to OM......or think of showing no emotion in her presence and allowing her to make the choice of her lifetime. Don't "enable" her to go, but don't try to force her not to go. Sometimes, just the knowledge that one is "free" to do "whatever"...makes a difference in their actions. As I said......I'm just talking out loud and I can almost hear the screams from others saying that you should "fight" for her, yada, yada. Yes, and you could end up looking like a fool when you aren't able to stop her. You could end up closing a door that can't be reopened. I don't think it will make one ounce of difference at how hard a fight you put up. I think she'll go! (Unless the R between you and W or her & OM changes between now and time for trip.)

So, in whatever remaining days that are left before that time in August comes.....maybe she could see a very charming man who will not presist in talking about her R with OM and be the man she fell in love with. Wonder if he's still around?

You may feel that you have no options here.....but that last statement I made....I see as a big opportunity to make the most of the time left. Whatever you do BJ, I would say that you need to do what you can live with. You have to have respect for yourself......so do what is necessary to have that. I remember thinking I could "force" personal beliefs upon my children and they would comply. When one of them rebelled and didn't comply....then I was determined to show him that I could "make" him do what I wanted. I had a painful lesson in store for me. Sometimes we must stand by as we watch our loved ones learn lessons the hard way. To me, that is one of the "hardest" things to do.......but it is effective!

Take care,
Sandi

Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/11/09 01:06 AM
Stuck,

Thank you for the words of encouragement.

Quote:
Well I would say that your W wanting to leave to date another guy is a pretty damn big financial irresponsibility.


Agreed. Taking any kind of vacation is right now, but particularly to do so in order to see OM.

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In the future, when your kids look back at how you acted now, you want them to be proud and say "that was my dad"!


That will be the end result regardless of what happens with my W and our M.

Quote:
Just think how they're going to look at their mom. Makes you want to laugh.


Actually, it makes me want to cry, but only when I'm out of detachment mode. My W is a good woman and I love her very much. As much as I dislike her behavior and disrespect towards me and our family right now, I can't hate her, I just feel very sad for her. She is terribly mixed up emotionally and possibly psychologically right now. So it is up to me to be the rock that you describe.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/11/09 02:14 AM
Quote:
BJ, I'm trying to see this in my WAW mode. All she can do is fantasize about OM. Remember when I told you that no man could live up to her fantasy.....includingher OM?


Yeah I'm still trying to wrap my brain around that one, as wonderful as he is.

Quote:
I am not suggesting for a second that you finance her trip. But, I am wondering if she saw him, if that would zap her out of that fantasy limbo she's in. From what you've said about his treatment of her, that sounds good for you! I think you are so hurt & angry, you might not see the possibilities here. If the OM is tired of her and verbally disrespecting her, how do you think he may treat her in person?


The problem is that my W appears to accept that from him- she is submissive to him. How do I know this? Because she is following the same behavior patterns as she did when she first dated me- although I didn't exploit or was verbally disrespectful of her like OM is. Which is bizarre given that one of her complaints about our R has been about her deferring to my "stronger" personality. As for treating her in person, given what a scum he is, I'm sure he'll be on his best behavior to try to exploit my W sexually. Understand that OM is a really ugly bastard and big time overweight too. He's the kind of SOB that either has to pay for it, get 'em too drunk to resist or find a woman emotionally crippled enough to give in to him (that'd be my W right now).

Quote:
Well, the truth is--it is a huge gamble....but I think she is planning to take this trip at any price. Just my thinking. She "has got" to see him and get a taste of what being with him would be like. Now, what is terrifying to you is the thought of them having sex. Let's be real here. That SOB would probably use her just to get sex! Then he'll dump her. Would you be willing to see that happen if you knew it would save your M? Well....let me put it another way. What could you really do about it if she's made up her mind? Oh, I'm sure you can think of all types of ways to prevent it taking place......just as most men do on matters like this. But, those ways could end with the M in the dumpster. It depends on whether or not the trip and them being togehter would be a "deal breaker" for you.


That is a tough question. Don't know if in the totality of the whole sitch it would be the deal breaker. But it would definitely result in major further damage to our M.

Quote:
If she goes to see this OM and she gets a good look at what he really is....there might be a tiny chance in her coming back home...ready to love the man who she's M to. This could be the deciding point in both of your lives. You have no power in what she does, but you have power in how you will emotionally deal with the results.


True. And I also have a say in whether the kids- her other "crutches" besides OM- go with her. And the answer will be NO. The only benefit I see in my W seeing OM in person is the stark physical contrast between he and I- I'm fit and good looking, he is very fat and ugly. (Yes, I know, its very shallow male thinking. But hey, one of the few things my W hasn't denied is how handsome I still am.... and no remarks about OM in this regard.)

Quote:
Don't "enable" her to go, but don't try to force her not to go. Sometimes, just the knowledge that one is "free" to do "whatever"...makes a difference in their actions.
As I said......I'm just talking out loud and I can almost hear the screams from others saying that you should "fight" for her, yada,yada. Yes, and you could end up looking like a fool when you aren't able to stop her.


Agreed. I have repeatedly acknowledged to her that she has her own free will to do whatever she wishes and that she is responsible for the consequences of her own actions. However, I can't say that I won't "fight" for her, because I will. But, it will be on my own terms, with class/dignity and within the context of things that I CAN control.

Quote:
So, in whatever remaining days that are left before that time in August comes.....maybe she could see a very charming man who will not presist in talking about her R with OM and be the man she fell in love with. Wonder if he's still around?


He's still around.... just waiting for (hoping for) the right opportunity to plant a reminder in her mind of that guy.

Quote:
You have to have respect for yourself......so do what is necessary to have that. I remember thinking I could "force" personal beliefs upon my children and they would comply. When one of them rebelled and didn't comply....then I was determined to show him that I could "make" him do what I wanted. I had a painful lesson in store for me. Sometimes we must stand by as we watch our loved ones learn lessons the hard way. To me, that is one of the "hardest" things to do.......but it is effective!


Agree with all of the above. One of the hardest things I've had to repeatedly accept is watching my loved ones learn lessons the hard way.

Thanks Sandi!

Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/11/09 07:59 PM
I have to comment on the "looks". When I had my EA, the OM was not ugly, but he wasn't that physically attractive, either. It really wasn't his looks that I was drawn to at all......it was how he responded to me and how he made me feel. That is what I don't understand about your W in why she would submit to some jerk treating her like OM does. But.....I can't understand that "mentality" of abused women b/c I have never had it or been subjected to any abuse. I can't ever see myself being mistreated like that, so I'm not much help in trying to figure her out.

If she has to rely upon you financing the trip.......I don't think you should give her one red cent to enable that adventure. If OM wants her bad enough, then HE will send her the money to go to him. If she has any brains at all, she will "know" that and expect OM to come across for her. If he doesn't, then (hoping her self-respect kicks in) she'll begin to open her eyes to what sort of person he really is. If I were in her place, my question would be why OM hasn't already come to where I was to be with me. He either doesn't have any money or he doesn't truly want her badly enough. Of course, we both know "what" he is.....so there's no surprise why he hasn't. Just want her to hurry up and have that regester in her mind!

Later,
Sandi
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/12/09 02:15 AM
Quote:
I have to comment on the "looks". When I had my EA, the OM was not ugly, but he wasn't that physically attractive, either. It really wasn't his looks that I was drawn to at all......it was how he responded to me and how he made me feel.


Agreed. How the OM makes her "feel" is at the core of her attraction to him.

Quote:
That is what I don't understand about your W in why she would submit to some jerk treating her like OM does.


From what I know of him, he is narcissistic extrovert who envisions himself as a "big shot". He is 40 years old, never married, has had only two long term relationships, 2 and 4 years respectively. He just ended the 4 year relationship before contacting my W. That relationship ended with him assaulting his girlfriend and breaking her arm. (My W knows about this assault and believes OM's story that he just pushed her, she fell down and broke her arm.) He has worked in the same lumber yard for 20 years. He has no real assets to speak of- he is a renter. He is apparently not a religious man and does not go to church. He maintains pages on Facebook and MySpace among other social networking sites. He corresponds with many single -and apparently married women (aside from my W)- on these sites. Don't know much about his married lady friends but the single ones have pretty slutty profiles that promote "attitude" and selfishness. He has a lot of friends and an active bachelor's life full of fun but no other accomplishments to speak of. He is apparently a bully with a short fuse.

I'm handsome and a successful professional respected in my field. I am an Eagle Scout. I am a hard worker who has provided well for my family with a nice home. I am dedicated to my family, their well being has always come first for me. Like most married salaried professionals, I don't find myself with a lot (or enough) of free time to spend with my family, friends and still get things done. Like many other working professionals, I've found myself in a rut where I haven't spent enough time "smelling the roses". I certainly don't have the enormous amount of free time OM does for fun nor do I spend much time if any on Facebook, MySpace, etc. I am a Christian and attend church every week. I'm confident, but not an extrovert/"life of the party" type. I've got a long fuse, not a bully- in fact just the opposite- but am very capable of taking care of myself.

I don't know why my W puts up with anything from this scum, or why she is so obsessed with him. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact he is the exact opposite of me.

Quote:
If OM wants her bad enough, then HE will send her the money to go to him. If she has any brains at all, she will "know" that and expect OM to come across for her. If he doesn't, then (hoping her self-respect kicks in) she'll begin to open her eyes to what sort of person he really is.


OM hasn't risked ANYTHING nor has he invested anything but free time exchanging grins/giggles via texting/cell phone calls and email for this "R" with my W. My W on the other hand currently seems more than willing to sacrifice her life along with the lives of our family along with everything we have worked hard for the last 18 years in order to further pursue a R with OM.

Quote:
Just want her to hurry up and have that regester in her mind!


No kidding, it's like waiting for paint to dry.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/12/09 04:37 AM
OMG! OM sounds like a nightmare!

You said the words right here:
Quote:
in fact just the opposite


It is strange to me, but we WAW's seem to pick OM who are just the opposite of our H's. I'm sure a therapist could have a "hay day" with that one! I don't know if the WAW is trying to get as far from her H in her thought process or what the heck goes on. Why on earth would a woman be the least bit attracted to that type of lowlife? Well.....I don't think it is "him" she's really attracted to. I know I keep going back to her fantasy.....but good grief.....I know she has to have a little intelligence for her to be "your" W.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/12/09 07:23 AM
Quote:
I'm sure a therapist could have a "hay day" with that one! I don't know if the WAW is trying to get as far from her H in her thought process or what the heck goes on. Why on earth would a woman be the least bit attracted to that type of lowlife? Well.....I don't think it is "him" she's really attracted to. I know I keep going back to her fantasy.....but good grief.....I know she has to have a little intelligence for her to be "your" W.


Sandi,

I don't know either, it's just bizarre because besides being beautiful, my W is also a smart woman! In fact, keeping in mind the type of guy OM is, I'd like some feedback from you and others as to whether my W might be dealing with something beyond just an EA and/or MLC. Also, I want to share what happened at my weekly IC session this week.

As you may recall, at the end of March, my W discovered OM's intimate online involvement with another woman (who was the creation of my BIL) which resulted in an argument between my W and OM. My W was crushed by the discovery. During a cell phone call, OM ripped into my W verbally and attacked her for judging a single man's behavior (his) while she is cheating on me with him. OM then proceeded to post mocking comments about my W on his MySpace page which included ridiculing my W for sharing with him her feeling that they were destined to be together forever. My W momentarily came to her senses and told me then that it was over for good with OM... until two days later when BIL- driven by guilt- told my W what he had done... which led to a reconciliation between OM and my W again.

In April/May, my W and OM supposedly tried no contact on two occasions "so that she can make a decision with a clear head" however neither attempt lasted more that approximately 2-3 weeks with my W being the one re-initiating contact with OM. Also during that time, according to my W, the OM had repeatedly told her that he does NOT need her in his life- he is already perfectly happy without her. It is also apparent that OM has no intention of relocating to California to start a new life with my W.

In May, I discovered my W doing background checks on the internet on one of the single women OM has an ongoing internet R with. She is younger than my W and judging by her MySpace page definitely the kind of girl OM is really looking for. I asked my W about the background checking on this woman and she admitted being very jealous of her R with OM. I gathered from talking to my W that OM is not interested in dropping his R with this other woman- something my W is none to pleased about.

I can't recall what if anything else significant occurred in June between my W and OM. I am aware that at around the end of June/beginning of July, there apparently was a falling out between the two as W was moping around for 3-4 days. Later, W disclosed to me that OM had told her "I don't want you in my life" but that a couple days later he had agreed to keep in contact with my W after all.

Now to the this weeks IC session. As per my recent posts, my W and I are currently having financial problems due to my W's employment sitch. Given circumstances, talks regarding her employment sitch spilled over into R discussions. Unhappy about those backslides, I invited my W to my IC this week in an effort to have a discussion about employment/finances and avoid any entanglements with regards to our overall R sitch. The convo with my C started OK- we talked about my personal progress then my C asked my W how things were going with her at which point my W stated that she was still pursuing the EA with OM. We then starting discussing finances and my W's employment sitch and that's when my C started questioning the healthiness of my W and I continuing to live under the same roof. My C noted that I had made substantial personal progress and was putting forth tremendous effort in trying to work on our M while my W was doing nothing to work on some of her own issues (possible co-dependency issues). My W then starts telling my C how unpleasant it is to just be living under the same roof with me right now. The next thing I know, my C starts talking about how it might be beneficial for my W to be physically separated from me and go live on her own- something that can't be achieved right now due to finances but something that may be an option if she gets employed again.

At this point, my W starts to cry, states that she has nowhere to go, acknowledges that our current financial sitch doesn't make physical separation possible right now and that she is financially dependent upon me. While I recognize that my C was probably trying to light a fire under my W's a** to get on the ball and get a job, I wasn't happy she chose to bring up separation as a motivator for my W. I think my C- along with some of my friends aware of my sitch- believe that my W would benefit from moving out of the house- ALONE- with the kids and I staying at our home- in order to really "get it" about what she is doing to us and our family.

Towards the end of our meeting, the C suggested that I share some of my M books and possibly put my W in touch with other almost/former WAWs here on the boards. My W declined the offer and responded "I'm not there yet". After we left the C's office, my W asked what caused my (male) friend (mentioned on a prior post)to pull back and abandon his EA/PA with his OW. I told her it was a realization of all of what he had to lose along with the pain he was inflicting on his family, particularly with regards to his three daughters, all of whom became aware of his EA/PA. I asked my W if she was interested in speaking with my friend further about his experience- predictably the answer was "No".

Sandi, I too am beginning to wonder if my W is not necessarily attracted to the OM as much as she is to THE IDEAL that he represents as you may have suggested in a prior post- (despite the fact that she remains adamant that she will NOT give up the EA with OM.) That would kind of make sense as she has stated to both me and OM that it doesn't matter what happens, her/our M is over. Also, she has stated to me repeatedly that she has come to the conclusion that she doesn't think that what she and I want out of life can ever be the same... despite the fact that WE HAVEN'T EVEN HAD A CONVERSATION ON THE TOPIC- YET!

As always, any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/12/09 05:52 PM
Sounds as if she just wants to have an "in-love" experience with some other man b/c she's convincing herself that her M is really over. I do believe she is running after the in-love "dream" and certainly not that creep of in OM. sick
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/13/09 09:21 PM
Sandi (and everyone else too),

I spoke to a business associate today who has done some work in the family law arena for quite awhile. I told him about my sitch and he was very concerned about my W's behaviors/attitude- his feeling is that my W may be beyond being caught up in the EA addiction and that perhaps this has progressed into a serious psychological problem for her. He was particularly concerned over my W's continuing obsession with OM and ongoing behavior despite what OM supposedly said to her about not wanting her in his life. We also talked about the effects of my W's self-brainwashing in her continuing behavior- all of the positive affirmations about OM she has repeated in her head over and over again these past six months.

My question to you is whether there are specific indicators I should be looking for that might suggest that my W's condition has deteriorated to the point of a serious psychological problem beyond what we have been discussing? Is there a possibility that my W may be in need of some sort of "de-programming" therapy due to her self-brainwashing? I just have not read enough myself on all of this to know.

BTW, she has not had a physical exam yet to rule out any potential hormonal issues (I know enough to steer way clear of that conversation with her- at least for now.)

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.
Posted By: Thinker Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/13/09 09:36 PM
Hi BigJohn,

Sorry to read what you are going through. In many ways, it sounds the same as it has been for me, although my W goes to extreme efforts to conceal and deny what is going on rather being open about her EA (s).

I have had the same thoughts - "How can she be attracted to that Loser?" "This is impossible!" etc.

All I can say right now is "Detach". She has to find her own way out.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/14/09 01:30 AM
I would just say that the more "off the deep end" she seems to get--the more the red flags are flying. If you feel that she is showing signs of being in a disillusional state of mind, then you need to try to protect her from herself. You need professional advice in how to do that. But first, make sure she is in that frame of mind and needs intervention of some sort. I say that b/c as cold as it may sound.....all LBH's think their WAW has about lost their minds. It can become a very serious matter. I think my family was very concerned about me b/c I was nothing like my usual self.

When you told of how hateful the OM was to her--but yet she continued this "fantasy" about their "love"......it is something (I think) that may merit some type of intervention. I simply don't know. You may have to be the final one to make that call if you do not have support. Is there any relatives or friends that support your feelings about this?

I think there may be at least two options here.....either her going to meet OM and getting "shocked" into reality of what he truly is and feels about her......or have some type of health intervention. I have never suggested that on the DB board where a WAW is concerned (at least I don't remember doing it) but I am concerned about this abusive situation from OM. Even if she went to see OM, she could be placing herself in harm's way. You just never know what somebody else may do. I realize that is thinking in the "extreme scenario". I also wonder if it would do further damage to her mental state if OM was nasty to her. After you spoke to your friend, it has me more concerned than ever. I don't know how you would stop her if she decides she is going. That is what I was thinking the last time I talked about her going to meet OM. Did your friend offer any suggestions?

If you can get more professional advice, that is the route to go. All I can do is try to tell you from my POV, but I'm not a professional and would hate for something really bad to happen to her--(more than already has)--mentally or physically.

I have talked to several LBH's about the hormone problems with women and I know from experience that it has a huge, huge affect on females when the hormone factor is not balanced and working properly. That's why it can seem as if they are going off their rocker! Who could you turn to or ask for help? Could this friend you spoke to give you more details about how or what to do? Where do you stand with her parents and do they have any idea what's going on? (Sorry if you've told me.....I forget.) I feel like I'm grasping at straws, so I can only imagine what you must be going through!! What about your family doctor? Could you speak to him/her about your W and see what could be done? The thing here is the "legal" part of forcing somebody against their will. Of course, you know that.....I'm just talking out loud.

Please let me know if you find somebody that knows what steps to take. I don't know if you'd start with a doctor or lawyer in a case like this. But, my thoughts would be to try to discuss her situation with the family doctor or her gynecologist. You can make appointments to talk about a family member....that much I have done! See what the doc said about a woman that won't see her health needs b/c she doesn't think anything is wrong. You know she's not at herself, so I would start with the doctor.

I wish with all my heart I had the right answers for you, but I am here to support you in this trying time. That doesn't seem much to offer......I wish I could do more.

Let me know as soon as you can.

Sandi
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/14/09 01:33 AM
Originally Posted By: Thinker
Hi BigJohn,

Sorry to read what you are going through. In many ways, it sounds the same as it has been for me, although my W goes to extreme efforts to conceal and deny what is going on rather being open about her EA (s).

I have had the same thoughts - "How can she be attracted to that Loser?" "This is impossible!" etc.

All I can say right now is "Detach". She has to find her own way out.


Thanks Thinker.

I definitely agree with you on the detachment and am working on it. To be fair to my W, she does take some measures to conceal her communications with OM. She has, however, been very frank with me when we have had our R discussions regarding the OM.

As tough as it is to accept, I also know that ultimately it is up to my W to find her own way out of this mess.

Hey I posted a few questions for you about your sitch with your W back on 6/28. Could you take a look at that and give me some feedback?

Thanks again Thinker.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/14/09 02:45 AM
Quote:
I would just say that the more "off the deep end" she seems to get--the more the red flags are flying. If you feel that she is showing signs of being in a disillusional state of mind, then you need to try to protect her from herself. You need professional advice in how to do that. But first, make sure she is in that frame of mind and needs intervention of some sort. I say that b/c as cold as it may sound.....all LBH's think their WAW has about lost their minds. It can become a very serious matter. I think my family was very concerned about me b/c I was nothing like my usual self.


I really hate even bringing up the possibility of a more serious psychological problem with my W, but to me her whole concept and pursuit of this R- along with how she rationalizes it all- seems "delusional". The fact that she continues to pursue OM after he has apparently told her he's not interested and been verbally abusive to her really concerns me, particularly in the context of what I know about OM. It's already an unhealthy R and she apparently still wants to D me and break up our family.

Quote:
When you told of how hateful the OM was to her--but yet she continued this "fantasy" about their "love"......it is something (I think) that may merit some type of intervention. I simply don't know. You may have to be the final one to make that call if you do not have support. Is there any relatives or friends that support your feelings about this?


I have not discussed this particular concern about my W with anyone. My fears could be completely wrong here and I have no desire to embarrass my W to anyone within our circle of friends and family. Any intervention would likely be limited to me along with any health professional who might evaluate her. Understandably this would be a very tough issue to deal with my W as she would probably feel insulted despite knowing my concern for her and how much I love her.

Quote:
I think there may be at least two options here.....either her going to meet OM and getting "shocked" into reality of what he truly is and feels about her......or have some type of health intervention. I have never suggested that on the DB board where a WAW is concerned (at least I don't remember doing it) but I am concerned about this abusive situation from OM. Even if she went to see OM, she could be placing herself in harm's way.


I don't think she is presently in a place psychological/emotionally where she could be "shocked" by meeting OM in person. As far as being in harm's way, I don't think OM would risk being violent with my W but being the scum that he is would likely take advantage of her sexually.

Quote:
I also wonder if it would do further damage to her mental state if OM was nasty to her.


If they meet in person, OM will likely wait to be nasty until after he has had his way with her sexually, they he will dump her and send her home. Hope it doesn't play out that way and she sees him for what he is but that is my fear.

Quote:
After you spoke to your friend, it has me more concerned than ever. I don't know how you would stop her if she decides she is going. That is what I was thinking the last time I talked about her going to meet OM. Did your friend offer any suggestions?


I may be able to slow her down but I can't stop her. My friend had no suggestions to offer.

Quote:
I have talked to several LBH's about the hormone problems with women and I know from experience that it has a huge, huge affect on females when the hormone factor is not balanced and working properly. That's why it can seem as if they are going off their rocker!


I am aware of this and recognize it is a touchy subject for women- especially if the subject is first brought up by a man. At the beginning of the EA, I dismissed possible hormone issues with my W as it just seemed too coincidental, happening at the same time as the EA. However as things have progressed I've come to realize that it may be something that needs to be ruled out.

Quote:
Where do you stand with her parents and do they have any idea what's going on? (Sorry if you've told me.....I forget.)


The family on both sides is supportive of me and the kids. Aside from seeking some initial emotional support from my in-laws, I have ceased communicating with them regarding our M. They know how much I love my W and family and that I will continue to fight like hell for our M.

Quote:
I feel like I'm grasping at straws, so I can only imagine what you must be going through!! What about your family doctor? Could you speak to him/her about your W and see what could be done? The thing here is the "legal" part of forcing somebody against their will. Of course, you know that.....I'm just talking out loud.

[quote]Please let me know if you find somebody that knows what steps to take. I don't know if you'd start with a doctor or lawyer in a case like this. But, my thoughts would be to try to discuss her situation with the family doctor or her gynecologist.


I agree that this would be a good place to start, having her go in for a physical, but even that might be a hard sell for my W right now.

Thanks for the feedback as always Sandi. I've got several other things that I'm dealing with right now but I'll let you know what I find out regarding the above.
Posted By: Thinker Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/14/09 03:25 AM
Hi BigJohn,

I didn't see the questions below until just now.

Originally Posted By: BigJohn
Hey Thinker,

I noticed in your sitch that OM "fled" on 2/09 and that you are currently still in Limboland. Just curious as to how the dynamics of your R with your W have changed since OM got out of the picture. I ask because I think I'll be facing this at some point in my sitch as well. Did your W grieve after being dumped by OM? Looking back, was there any window of opportunity that may have been seized at the time OM left that might have turned things around for you and W rather than your R with your W going into Limboland?

I'm concerned about the possibility of OM dropping my W then my W starting to search for a replacement for OM, perhaps here locally. As I mentioned in an earlier post, my W has told both me and OM that she will find someone "just like him (OM)" if it doesn't work out with him (OM).


In my sitch, OM fled because I exposed the EA and threatened to expose him. I think that my W blamed me for the loss of her R with him.

She definitely went into a grieving period, and I am not sure she ever came out of it. I know she still thinks of him, looks at pictures of him, etc. She denies this all and say's it is completely over, but...

She also strictly maintains that OM was not (never was the problem) and that the M was dead before OM, and that now that OM is gone the M is still dead.

I believe she is still wishing to rekindle something with OM or find something else.

Ending the R with OM pushed us into an extended limbo period, where she was unwilling to come back into the R or to put any effort into it, but was also not ready to leave. We have been languishing there, with the R dying a death by a thousand paper cuts.

I never saw a real chance to rekindle things, but my sitch was a bit different because after OM cut things off, my W suffered a number of blows that further damaged our R: Our baby son was injured and had to go to the hospital, her mother was diagnosed with cancer, etc. Each one caused her to withdraw a bit more.

Sorry for the "bad news" - my sitch is not yours. I have reached the point where I am at my limit. I can't keep watching things get slowly worse.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/14/09 11:39 AM
Quote:
At the beginning of the EA, I dismissed possible hormone issues with my W as it just seemed too coincidental, happening at the same time as the EA. However as things have progressed I've come to realize that it may be something that needs to be ruled out.


But to me....."this" is a sign that her hormones are not balanced. Something is out of whack and you are seeing the "outside" results of her weird actions. It may sound as if I am blaming misconduct on hormones and using that as an excuse, but it's not in all cases. I do believe a female can get really mixed up and not be her normal self. Due to the proper hormones, she feels depressed and unhappy and therefore seeks out somebody to fill that need. But, you are right, you aren't the one to try to talk to her about this b/c WAW's have a tendency to get pretty anger when a H wants to suggest she see a female doctor.

My greatest fear was my relatives/friends finding out about my EA. However, she seems to be ready to go public with this if she's going to go meet him and talking so frank about it. What do you think? Do the two of you have a couple who are your best and dearest friends?

Talk later,
Sandi
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/15/09 01:22 AM
Thinker,

Thanks for getting back to me on that. I'm sorry to hear where you are at with your R with your W. I'd really like to see my W's OM kill the EA once and for all- everyone but my W understands that he's got other women he is stringing along, most of whom are either younger and/or far more accessible. I'm not holding my breath just yet though- OM is a selfish bastard relying on my W and other women to boost his ego/self esteem- no matter what the cost to anyone else. And of course my W is oblivious to all of it.

I sure hope my sitch doesn't develop like yours has as my W has already told me (and apparently OM) that it doesn't matter if they (she and OM) get together or not, our M is done. I could see things possibly going in that direction given that from my W's perspective the OM has "raised the bar" (totally unrealistically) with regards to an "ideal" R. (Not that my W and I can't eventually have an OUTSTANDING M -but in the real world it takes work.)

So given where you are at now, any ideas on how you will proceed from here? As mentioned in my prior post, my C is of the opinion that my W ought to eventually move out on her own, presumably as a sort of reality check amongst other reasons. BTW, has your W done any serious due diligence regarding the consequences of D that you are aware of? Despite all her affirmations of wanting to (eventually) D, my W hasn't done a damn thing in this regard. I know of course that would be part of rational thinking on the part of our almost-WAWs, but just curious.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/15/09 01:41 AM

Quote:
My greatest fear was my relatives/friends finding out about my EA. However, she seems to be ready to go public with this if she's going to go meet him and talking so frank about it. What do you think? Do the two of you have a couple who are your best and dearest friends?


Sandi,

Although my W can speak frankly to me at times about OM, she is relatively discreet in her contacts with him. In fact she has made comments to me that suggest that she would be very discrete about meeting him in person (assuming they eventually do). Furthermore, back in March when she was at the height of her "addiction" she mentioned that she saw herself going out on the sly with OM for some time before introducing him to our kids. (This was part of her earlier fantasy of permanently relocating to her home state with my kids to be with OM before I informed her she couldn't legally do that.)

The impression I've had is that while my W seems to be genuinely "crazy" about OM, I don't think she assigns a lot of pride in being seen with him, at least people whom she respects. This was true when she went out with him 20 years ago before meeting me- she never introduced him to her family despite supposedly going out with him off/on for 1 1/2 years. On the other hand, she introduced me to her family soon after we started going out and has never had a problem feeling proud to be on my arm. As a matter of fact, I asked my W not to long ago if she would feel proud to hang on to OM arm if they were to get together- she didn't respond. Your thoughts?
Posted By: Thinker Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/15/09 01:53 AM
Originally Posted By: BigJohn
I could see things possibly going in that direction given that from my W's perspective the OM has "raised the bar" (totally unrealistically) with regards to an "ideal" R. (Not that my W and I can't eventually have an OUTSTANDING M -but in the real world it takes work.)


I really understand that feeling - your spouse dreaming along about perfection and completely ignoring reality...

However, please don't let it get in the way of your own work. You can complain about the unfairness of being compared with a fantasy all day long (I know) and it won't get you anywhere. Remember that OM can't compare to the fantasy either - no one can. Do the work on yourself. Everyone has room for improvement, so do it - for yourself.


Quote:

So given where you are at now, any ideas on how you will proceed from here? As mentioned in my prior post, my C is of the opinion that my W ought to eventually move out on her own, presumably as a sort of reality check amongst other reasons. BTW, has your W done any serious due diligence regarding the consequences of D that you are aware of? Despite all her affirmations of wanting to (eventually) D, my W hasn't done a damn thing in this regard. I know of course that would be part of rational thinking on the part of our almost-WAWs, but just curious.


I believe my W has also not done any due diligence, calculations etc - or really any work at all in the direction of D. She has asked me on several occasions to move out - in other words, asking me to do the work of leaving and of figuring out a way to make the finances of two households work, etc, leaving her whole in her current life and lifestyle. I politely declined, so here we still are in Limboland.

Again here, focus on yourself. Figure out what you need to be a whole, happy person - without needing your W or anyone else. Make the changes. If you do this, really do this, one of 3 things will happen: 1) your W will notice and come back. 2) You will realize that you are really happier without your W. You may actually become a WAS yourself - but not based on fantasy, based on a realistic view of the situation and your needs 3) Your W may leave you for this OM or another one. Remember, even if this OM drops her, she may just start looking for another. In this case, you will be strong, be able to move on, and be able to support your family through it.

You can't choose which outcome will happen - 1, 2, 3. In all 3 cases, working on yourself is the best thing to do.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/15/09 04:07 AM
Thinker,

You are right; I agree with you completely. I continue working on myself and moving towards greater detachment. Believe me, I'm long past griping about how unfair it all is. I realize that I need to minimize the impact my W's crisis is having on me, not just for me but for my kids and the rest of the family.

Thanks for the continued feedback, I appreciate it.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/16/09 08:03 AM
Quote:
I think there may be at least two options here.....either her going to meet OM and getting "shocked" into reality of what he truly is and feels about her......or have some type of health intervention.


Sandi,

Was talking to my W tonight and asked her about a prior comment she had previously made to me: "I'm not interested in being M to a Boy Scout". (Recall that we were previously discussing why many WAWs seek out OM the exact opposite as their H.) I know- I shouldn't have asked- but my S had a scout meeting last night and it was on my mind.

My W responded by stating that she meant that she didn't like being M to "Mr. Perfect", specifically someone who thinks they (me) are better than her (W). I asked for specific examples of what made her feel that way and she basically broke it down for me by mentioning 1. I've talked down to her when I'm really angry in the past (this is true), 2. I have strong convictions about right/wrong and usually "win" any arguments with her (this is true), 3. I take pride in holding myself to high standards(this is true) and 4. that she feels that my love for her is conditional (not accurate from my perspective).

I told W that I respected her feelings but that it was never my intention to convey that I thought I was better than her to her. (I do NOT feel I am better than my W, just different than her.)

Just thought I'd share this with you as it relates to how my W finds OM so appealing.

Talk to you soon.
Posted By: MrBond Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/16/09 08:19 PM
Well that's pretty telling.

Sandi once told me that when I talk to my W now, talk to her in soft tones. I didn't understand what that meant until my W told me that she felt I talked down to her. I didn't understand what that meant at the time, but now I do.

Maybe when you are talking to her, you need to do the same. You do come across as still very judgemental in your posts and even though they may be right, they aren't going to be re-attracting your W back to you.

Just my 2 cents.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/17/09 05:28 AM
Stuck,

Thank you for the feedback. I have been consistently talking much more softly to my W (and kids too) since the beginning of April and have definitely noticed a positive difference in our interactions (this is mostly true with the kids; I can't seem to do much right in my W's eyes no matter what I do.)

Regarding coming across as being judgmental in my posts- you are right and I need to drop being judgmental altogether. I know that it is yet another thing holding me back in being a better man and having a better R with my W... as well as being able to detach.

BTW, I like and agree with your tag line re: passion. I am a very passionate person by nature myself- I presume you are too. Do you find that to be a significant obstacle for you in your efforts to detach?
Posted By: MrBond Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/17/09 09:23 AM
I definitely do find it hard. In the beginning of all this madness, I was very impatient. I had tons of backslides and I really needed the support of this site to help me through it.

You can do it though. When you change, your W will change. Right now she's in the OM fog. No telling how long she's going to be in there, so fortify your defenses and make the environment safe for her to return.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/17/09 02:59 PM
Hi BJ,

I believe your W has the "bad boy" desire. Apparently, she was drawn to that type if she dated him before M and didn't introduce him to her family & friends. It's as if she has to hide to be with him and maybe that adds to her desire.....I don't know. I sure hope she didn't M "up" (as they say) in order to please her family, when she was wanting to M "down" according to their standards. Sounds like something for a IC to figure out. Some women just have a thing for bad boys.....I never did, so it's hard for me to understand it. She is saying a lot refering to you as a "Boy Scout" and "Mr. Pefect"........that says volumes to me. One, she sees you as a "goodie-two-shoes"......which must have a degree of turn-off for her. Especially since she seems drawn to the bad boys. Second, by calling you Mr. Perfect, she feels that you are too ridgid and self-rightous and she feels very inferior to you! That's the biggest thing right there......her self-confidence is lacking when she's around you. Perhaps she feels more important, more confident around OM b/c she knows she more classy than he could ever be! Unfortunately, some people have to have friends who are seen in a lower class.....in order for them to feel better about themselves. If your W has felt that you have "put her down" all these years, then I could see how her ego has taken a beating and she would look for a man who would build her up. However, if OM verbally abused her......that makes no sense to me! Again, something for an IC.

Quote:
1. I've talked down to her when I'm really angry in the past (this is true),
Quote:
2. I have strong convictions about right/wrong and usually "win" any arguments with her (this is true),


It takes a strong woman to hold her own with a man who is angry and talking down to her. It especially takes a strong woman when that man is her H. Over time....she begans to wear down and finally gives up and lets him win the arugments b/c it just isn't worth it. My question is, why must you always win? Most people feel that they are right in their opinions of what's right/wrong. Is she never right? And, why did you have to talk down to her in order to win? Isn't that being a bully? Doesn't the OM talk down to her also???

Quote:
3. I take pride in holding myself to high standards(this is true)


As I said, most of us think our opinions are correct. We think that our standards are high.......but exactly how do you mean you take "pride" in that? Is that to say that you put others whose opinion differ from yours as having a lower standard? Somehow, I kind of think that "pride" of yours comes shinning through! That's not good. Some women see men like that as a huge turn-off b/c they appear to be arrogant and haughty.

Some men may think they are speaking with a voice of "authority" when all they are doing is sounding angry and putting another person down. That is not authority. That is not "strength" and it certainly is not "honor".

Quote:
4. that she feels that my love for her is conditional (not accurate from my perspective).


Well let me tell you, I could certainly understand why she would think your love for her was conditional. Not accurate from your perspective? Go back and read numbers 1-3 and tell me she doesn't have a right to think that! You really are blind to yourself, aren't you? You take "pride" in what you should be ashamed of! That isn't how you should treat your wife and kids! Bet your kids feel like they have a hard time living up to your expectations also. You better be careful or you will have children with a lot of "issues" where daddy is concerned.

Quote:
I told W that I respected her feelings but that it was never my intention to convey that I thought I was better than her to her.


I don't think she believes you do respect her feelings. You would not have to try to convince her otherwise, if she did. I suddenly see you as some type of drill instructor in the military. Gosh, I hope that's not the case, BJ. Have I been too hard on your W when you were the one driving her away?

Quote:
Just thought I'd share this with you as it relates to how my W finds OM so appealing


Kind of makes sense in why she would want to find a man totally opposite from you, doesn't it?
















Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/18/09 09:06 AM
Sandi,

Perhaps you have not been hard enough on ME.... either that or I'm paying the price for tapping out a crappy post before running out the door. I have to admit, there are days when I just have to jump on here to post/vent to get stuff off my chest- sometimes I can't always wait when it is most convenient.

Like every LBS or potential LBS, there is absolutely another side of my story- my W's side. I have made mistakes in our MR and I accept full accountability for them. I am NOT "Mr. Perfect" by a long shot! Despite what she is going through with her EA, she does have legitimate issues with me and our MR.

Quote:
She is saying a lot refering to you as a "Boy Scout" and "Mr. Pefect"........that says volumes to me. One, she sees you as a "goodie-two-shoes"......which must have a degree of turn-off for her. Especially since she seems drawn to the bad boys. Second, by calling you Mr. Perfect, she feels that you are too ridgid and self-rightous and she feels very inferior to you! That's the biggest thing right there......her self-confidence is lacking when she's around you. Perhaps she feels more important, more confident around OM b/c she knows she more classy than he could ever be!


When I'm referring to personal standards, I mean the standards I hold myself to NOT what I hold others to. I did not mean this in the context of being "right" or having the only opinion that matters or putting other people down. I am NOT always right. What I'm referring to here is always striving to be the best that I can be: best father, husband, son, brother, friend, employee, etc. I think that you captured some of the problems with this as it relates to my W in this first paragraph of your post. Both my W and I agree that she does have self esteem issues.

Quote:
It takes a strong woman to hold her own with a man who is angry and talking down to her. It especially takes a strong woman when that man is her H. Over time....she begans to wear down and finally gives up and lets him win the arugments b/c it just isn't worth it. My question is, why must you always win? Most people feel that they are right in their opinions of what's right/wrong. Is she never right? And, why did you have to talk down to her in order to win? Isn't that being a bully? Doesn't the OM talk down to her also???


Sandi, There is no justification for talking down to my W under any circumstances- ever. The incidents where I talked down to her involved four separate car accidents along with a handful of other disputes regarding money or child rearing. These incidents occurred some time ago- like many of her complaints. Looking back, these were immature outbursts of frustration on my part and served little purpose beyond making my W feel bad. I have mellowed out some with age!

Regarding arguments with my W, it's not that I must always win- that is not it at all. I am not always right and my W is not always wrong. Rather, it is more of me having the stronger of the two personalities in the R and just being a naturally passionate person whereas my W is more laid back. Not considering the "talk down" incidents above, I do not intimidate my W or use strong arm tactics of any sort in my dealings with her. I definitely do NOT see myself a bully whereas OM has a public record of being a punk/bully. And yes, I believe that OM has verbally bullied my W.

If there are things in my posts which suggest I could/might be a bully by some definition, I'd sure like specific feedback on that, because I absolutely hate bullies!

Quote:
4. that she feels that my love for her is conditional (not accurate from my perspective).


Quote:
Well let me tell you, I could certainly understand why she would think your love for her was conditional. Not accurate from your perspective? Go back and read numbers 1-3 and tell me she doesn't have a right to think that! You really are blind to yourself, aren't you? You take "pride" in what you should be ashamed of! That isn't how you should treat your wife and kids! Bet your kids feel like they have a hard time living up to your expectations also. You better be careful or you will have children with a lot of "issues" where daddy is concerned.


Yikes! I guess I can't argue with your conclusions given how my post came across- and with limited information. I've had quite a few sessions with my IC and being "blind" to myself isn't something that has been identified as an issue for me. Not that it couldn't be- I'm not here just looking for sympathy for my sitch- I genuinely want feedback to help me be a better person, husband and father.

The conditional love issue with my W does relate at least in part to her sense of my expectations of her and perhaps deserves it's own post within this thread to really drill down on. The bottom line is that I married my W because I love her as a complete package; her strengths far outweigh her weaknesses. Just because I've been frustrated with her in the past- as she has been with me on occasion- doesn't mean that I don't love her unconditionally.

Well it's getting late. I hope I clarified a few things for you Sandi because I don't want you to think that I'm "The Great Santini" by any means! I respect your feedback very much. Thank you for calling me out on what I put out there so I could provide additional info. BTW, I read in one of your previous posts that you were out ill recently. Hope you are feeling much better. Take care.

BJ















[/quote]
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/18/09 12:29 PM
I thought I had made you mad at me BJ! The truth is.....I knew exactly how "you" meant what you were saying....but I wanted to help you see it from her POV. I hope maybe I did a little. I certainly understand about writing posts when I'm in a hurry b/c I have said things kind of harshly to a newcomer and then realized that particular person was in no shape to hear what I had said right then. Anyway, just wanted to comment on a couple of things here, hoping that you'll see what I'm seeing when you talk. Maybe that is how your W sees you, or maybe it's not.

Quote:
When I'm referring to personal standards, I mean the standards I hold myself to NOT what I hold others to. I did not mean this in the context of being "right" or having the only opinion that matters or putting other people down. I am NOT always right. What I'm referring to here is always striving to be the best that I can be: best father, husband, son, brother, friend, employee, etc. I think that you captured some of the problems with this as it relates to my W in this first paragraph of your post. Both my W and I agree that she does have self esteem issues.


If you knew some of my relatives, you would know why I can almost picture you in my mind. Maybe you are one of my relatives! (Just kidding.) I knew what you meant by your personal standards and perhaps you have no problem mixing the standards you set for yourself from those you think others should have, however, "most" people who expect a lot from themselves.....expect a lot of others. Maybe you don't.....and if not, then you are an exception. However, since your W has low self-esteem, you would have to be cautious not to cause her to feel that you are stepping on her toes.....especially when talking "to" her or "about" other situations. It simply comes through our conversations to others, (with most people in most cases). Yes, you know you are not automaticaly "right" about every issue, but can you lay it down without arguing or stating your case about how you see it? If she tends to be passive, then you may come across as being a bit over-bearing. I don't know.....just speculating.

Quote:
I do not intimidate my W or use strong arm tactics of any sort in my dealings with her.


You may think you do not intimidate her, but she may "feel" the intimidation and won't admit it to you. May be her pride that keeps her from saying anything. But IMHO, people who feel low self-esteem can easily be intimidated by a stronger personality.

So, anyway, enough about all of that. Just hope it may have given you a spotlight from a different angle.

How has she seem the last couple of days?


Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/18/09 07:37 PM
Quote:
I thought I had made you mad at me BJ! The truth is.....I knew exactly how "you" meant what you were saying....but I wanted to help you see it from her POV.


Sandi,

It's kind of funny you say that because I thought you were mad at ME! Either that or disappointed that I may have misrepresented myself somehow... which is definitely not my intention. Anyways, part of why I'm here is to help me understand my W's POV, relate to it and become the H my W and I need me to be.

Quote:
I knew what you meant by your personal standards and perhaps you have no problem mixing the standards you set for yourself from those you think others should have, however, "most" people who expect a lot from themselves.....expect a lot of others. Maybe you don't.....and if not, then you are an exception. However, since your W has low self-esteem, you would have to be cautious not to cause her to feel that you are stepping on her toes.....especially when talking "to" her or "about" other situations. It simply comes through our conversations to others, (with most people in most cases). Yes, you know you are not automaticaly "right" about every issue, but can you lay it down without arguing or stating your case about how you see it? If she tends to be passive, then you may come across as being a bit over-bearing. I don't know.....just speculating.


I agree. I do try to make a conscious effort to separate my personal standards from my expectations of others- it is simply not realistic or fair to do otherwise. I take full ownership for being hard on myself sometimes- it's something that I need to work on. It could be that I'm not sensitive enough to how much and/or often my personal standards may be creeping into my interactions and/or conversations with my W. I'm going to give this point a lot of thought.

Quote:
You may think you do not intimidate her, but she may "feel" the intimidation and won't admit it to you. May be her pride that keeps her from saying anything. But IMHO, people who feel low self-esteem can easily be intimidated by a stronger personality.


Agreed. I think that this is certainly one of the big stumbling blocks with couples like my W and I who have complimentary personalities. The self esteem issue is one of the most significant disparities between my W and I. As a younger man, I guess I mistakenly thought that being a part of me in M would somehow boost my W's self esteem enough to where it wouldn't be a significant issue. I realize now that I can't provide this to my W simply through osmosis- it takes a lot more care and work by both of us. If we can get through this crisis, building my W's self esteem is going to be one of my top priorities in our R going forward.

Quote:
How has she seem the last couple of days?


She appears to still be in regular contact with OM. She keeps stating how she is looking forward to the trip out of state in August to "visit her family"- and see OM. She continues to work very hard on exercising and her tan- she looks fantastic- while putting little effort on the employment front- according to her, this will wait until after the trip in August.

I'm guess this trip in August is my W's version of the Super Bowl for her. She has put everything on the table for OM- including her heart and soul. The only thing she hasn't given him yet is her body. It sure is looking like she must have OM at any cost.

I'm pretty much keeping to myself right now when not spending time with the kids. She tried picking a fight with me two nights ago about my posting here- said she doesn't like me talking about her to others. I asked her if it bothered her that I told people how much I loved her and wanted our M to work. She responded that she didn't mind that I told people that.

Just got off the phone with my W as I was finishing this post. She called to ask me what I was doing about child care arrangements for the week after next- she is attending church camp the entire week. She told me I ought to burn a few vacation days that week instead of her having to arrange a babysitter. I told her I had other plans for using my vacation days. She asked what my plans were- I said maybe I'll be going with you and the kids on the out of state trip in August. She didn't like that idea too much.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/18/09 08:15 PM
Quote:
She asked what my plans were- I said maybe I'll be going with you and the kids on the out of state trip in August. She didn't like that idea too much.


grin That's funny!

So, do you think she reads what you post here on the board?
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/19/09 02:27 AM
Quote:
So, do you think she reads what you post here on the board?


My W told me she went here once to try to locate my posts out of curiosity but couldn't find them. My C recently suggested to both my W and I that I share my posts here with my W. I offered to at the time- my W has yet to take me up on the offer.

I've suggested to my W several times in the past to read and/or post on here to find the truth for herself about what is going on with her and not take my word for it. Maybe even talk to gals like you, Sandi, who went through and survived an EA.

I really wish she would indulge me in corresponding a little with you but she just says she is not interested in posting. Any ideas on how I might pique her curiosity enough to give it a try? Have you ever engaged a WAW in conversation or extended an invitation to a WAW to do so before here on the boards?
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/19/09 02:52 AM
Quote:
Have you ever engaged a WAW in conversation or extended an invitation to a WAW to do so before here on the boards?


No, only those who came here on the board and we found each other. But, I would be glad to talk to her if she wanted. I just don't think she should be pushed b/c she clearly doesn't want to do it. If I understand it correctly, Coach's wife found the boards, so who knows.....maybe if you ease up, she'll do it on her own.

Why would your C think you should share what you've posted? Not that you've said anything you shouldn't, but seems like that would be like letting her read your tool book....DR. But, if it worked. I can't remember that much, but I think Geek (Coach's wife) said that is what really began to turn her around when she found the DB board. Don't want to speak to much for her b/c I might not remember it just the way she said.

I know your patience must be getting weary. My heart went out for another poster today who was really having a hard time over the WAS. I know that your W is not happy.....she only tries to make herself think she "will" be happier. Don't give up. If my feelings can change, so can your W's.

Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/19/09 03:59 AM
Quote:
Why would your C think you should share what you've posted? Not that you've said anything you shouldn't, but seems like that would be like letting her read your tool book....DR.


I think my C was thinking that by reading my posts my W would also be exposed to the feedback I am getting from you and others and that maybe that would pique my W's curiosity further.

Quote:
I know your patience must be getting weary. My heart went out for another poster today who was really having a hard time over the WAS. I know that your W is not happy.....she only tries to make herself think she "will" be happier. Don't give up. If my feelings can change, so can your W's.


I have to admit I have my moments. It is not in my nature to take crap from ANYONE for a second yet I've taken the worse abuse of my life from my W for the last 4 1/2 months since discovery of her EA and I'm still hanging tough. Still thinking about the likely impending escalation to a PA in two weeks and how I'm going to deal with that.

It's becoming abundantly clear that my W must crash and burn- and merrily take down the kids and I in the process- in order to learn her lesson about OM and her associated fantasy. It kills me to no end how little I can do to stop her from continuing inflicting the damage she is doing to us and our family. I resent it to the point where I sometimes wonder if I might be happier WITHOUT HER- before I realize that I'm just falling into the same trap she is in now. Perseverance is the key. I've got to keep the focus on me and the kids. She will either come around soon enough to help me turn our sitch around, or she won't... in which case she'll eventually bite the dust sometime down the road with OM. How I wish I could post OM picture for everyone to see- a picture of my W's OM really is like a thousand words. Maybe in his case two thousand words. Either way, life will go on and I will succeed with my kids in tow.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/19/09 09:19 PM
A voice of strength and determination.....not to mention the love!
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/21/09 01:27 AM
Sandi,

I like to check out your other posts from time to time and ran across this one:

Quote:
When I decided that I would "stay" at home.....I was not in any mood to discuss it. He may think that deciding to just stay in the M and not get D is enough for now. I was the "talkative" type and yet I had nothing to say! I was all talked out. I had been trying to tell my H what I needed for YEARS.....but it did no good. I don't know that your H has tried to tell you or not....just saying that he may see "staying" as "working". At the time, I felt that was all I could do. I had to reach what I call the point to be willing "to be willing" and it took quite a while before that actually kicked in. I even tried to tell myself that I was trying to "work".....when all I was doing was staying here. But to me....that was work!


I've heard my W several times make a similar point about relating to staying/remaining in our house as "working" or "contributing". Most recently, my W made this point to our C two weeks ago in response to our C stating that I had made great strides in my personal progress while my W had done nothing to address her "issues"- which my W also responded to (predictably) "I don't have any issues". That by the way was the same discussion in which my C suggested that it was time for my W to start looking to move out of our house ASAP as it appeared to her (C) that a trial separation would be much "healthier" for both of us since my W refuses to drop her EA with OM. (Recall that my W cried during that part of the discussion and was later pissed off after the session.) Incidently, my friend who had his own EA/PA thinks it would be a good idea for my W to move out on her own- at least temporarily. He said all it took for him was about one week alone at a local hotel for him to "get it".

At first blush, I don't like the idea and am not entirely pleased about my C bringing up my W potentially moving out. We could probably afford a one week stay at a hotel for my W financially, I just don't know if we could pull it off with the kids, especially D3. Plus with her Iphone and my BIL living in town, it probably wouldn't have as great an effect. Then again, I don't particularly care for my W's cake eating either.

My feeling right now is that having my W living here at the house with detachment from me is the still the best arrangement. That may change of course following my W's out of state trip back home in August and whatever transpires between her and OM. It's still looking bleak- she worked out this a.m. then spent a few hours tanning in the back yard. She looks smoking hot- part of me wishes I could tell her that right now- but I know all of the hard work is for OM's benefit.

BTW, how does the LBH differentiate between when a WAW is "cake eating" vs. being ambivalent and/or scared? Any thoughts on this?
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/21/09 02:19 AM
I suggest saving your money on the motel for a week. She will need more than that. That would seem like a little vacation to her and she would not have it "rough". Staying at a motel without having to clean house, cook, wash, etc.? Are you kidding? I would love it! What woman wouldn't?

Anyway, I sure think what that C did was a very, very bad move on her part. I think that MC was not helping your stitch one bit. Everytime that C praised you for your accomplishments....it pissed your W off, right? Maybe she tried to pretend she didn't care, but she did! You are the enemy in her eyes and she doesn't want to hear anyone have anything good to say about you. (Thinking as a WAW)

Yes, she does feel like it's "work" to remain in the M. Not fair to you, but that is how she feels.

Quote:
BTW, how does the LBH differentiate between when a WAW is "cake eating" vs. being ambivalent and/or scared? Any thoughts on this?


When a WAW is cake eating, she will be affectionate as if she isn't in an EA/PA (which ever the case). She may act as if all is fine on the home front. She will basically (I think) act as she ordinarily would and that is why a lot of H's do not realize she is in an A. Now, that's my opinion. I never did any cake eating, that I'm aware of. My H knew I was as cold as the North Pole and would have nothing to do with him. Wouldn't even stay in the same room with him unless we were with family. I'm sure they could sense the tension! I never cooked for him or anything!

I think if she's scared......she will act in a nervous manner, maybe, or like she's thinking of making a big decision. Being M to somebody for a long time, you just learn to "read them". I think you would be able to tell by her body language, if nothing else. Which I guess would go for being ambivalent, as well. Those are cases where I think every personality would differ. Wish I could be more help.

I do think you are making the right decision to remain in the home. I know it's hard, but I hope you can hang with it.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/21/09 02:27 AM
I think a better way to describe "cake eating" would be to say she is wanting to have her A, but she wants all the benefits of being M, too. Expecting you to shower her with kindness and attention when she's being a WW. I don't guess I'm doing a good job at explaining...... frown
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/22/09 03:43 AM
Quote:
When a WAW is cake eating, she will be affectionate as if she isn't in an EA/PA (which ever the case). She may act as if all is fine on the home front. She will basically (I think) act as she ordinarily would and that is why a lot of H's do not realize she is in an A. Now, that's my opinion. I never did any cake eating, that I'm aware of. My H knew I was as cold as the North Pole and would have nothing to do with him. Wouldn't even stay in the same room with him unless we were with family. I'm sure they could sense the tension! I never cooked for him or anything!


For the most part she has been acting "normal" with the exception of continuing to not be affectionate/intimate- more so it seems with the impending trip coming up in August. She seems to be making some effort on her part to not cause or add to any tension in the house. She is also keeping herself busy with kid activities, etc. in between working out and tanning. Beyond the obvious advantages of keeping the peace leading up to the trip, I'm not sure what else her agenda might be with the attitude- to try to keep me calm like you would an animal you were going to take to slaughter?

I have to admit, I'm somewhat tempted to crash this August vacation for real- either go in the car with the family or fly out for an unannounced visit mid-week... or better yet go pay OM a surprise visit to boot. (Don't they have a face icon with an evil grin?) But that would be considered pursuing, right? All kidding aside, there wouldn't be any benefit to doing that would there.....like maybe putting a damper on sexual contact between W and OM? After this trip, I wouldn't anticipate another one like it until next January, which could buy me/W more time. I really am having a problem trying to work through a likely sexual contact scenario between W and OM...

Quote:
I do think you are making the right decision to remain in the home. I know it's hard, but I hope you can hang with it.


I am not going anywhere, I put my blood, sweat and tears into this home, not her. She is the one who has strayed, not me. I can hang with the decision to stay in this house all day long. She is the one who needs to worry about staying or not. Obviously I want her to stay, but if the only means of advancing in a positive direction in our MR is for her to be physically separated from me, then I guess that is something we need to talk about in the near future. My C certainly feels that there is an increasing need for physical separation between W and I, however after reading through half of "Walk Away Woman" so far, I am not so convinced.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/22/09 04:06 AM
BJ, I respect your feelings regarding the ordeal with your W. I sure can understand why you would want to bust that little party up in August. Now, you know that you "can" bust the A. And Puppy encouages that LBS do that. It doesn't, however, always bust the divorce. Some have tried that and it doesn't have the desired results and doesn't neccessarily end the A. It is more of an "exposure". If you showed up there unannounced in August, you could probably put a big damper on things. But would it draw your W back to the M or push her futher away? That is the missing piece right there. And....would you want to take that risk? Are you at that place now?

You know your wife better than another soul. Based on how she has been acting toward you, with the family, around the home activities, etc.......do you ever get the impression that she wants to see you arrive on the scene as her knight in shinning armour who has come to fight for the M? There have been the very few exception of W's who said that is what they wanted to see the LBH do. I was not that way. I was sooo turned off to my H that there is no way I would have wanted that to happen. But I don't know your wife. All I can judge is by what you tell me. What do you think?

Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/22/09 04:56 AM
Quote:
BJ, I respect your feelings regarding the ordeal with your W. I sure can understand why you would want to bust that little party up in August. Now, you know that you "can" bust the A. And Puppy encouages that LBS do that. It doesn't, however, always bust the divorce. Some have tried that and it doesn't have the desired results and doesn't neccessarily end the A. It is more of an "exposure". If you showed up there unannounced in August, you could probably put a big damper on things. But would it draw your W back to the M or push her futher away? That is the missing piece right there. And....would you want to take that risk? Are you at that place now?


Sandi,

These are all great questions...and I realize that crashing the August vacation might not have the desired result. When I spontaneously reacted the other day by telling my W that I might be going, her reaction was mild disgust followed by a "whatever". I can't say right now if it would push her further away or not- it's hard to gauge right now along with the degree of risk. I do know that if her EA escalates to a PA things will definitely get worse in our sitch, at least for the forseeable future.

Quote:
You know your wife better than another soul. Based on how she has been acting toward you, with the family, around the home activities, etc.......do you ever get the impression that she wants to see you arrive on the scene as her knight in shinning armour who has come to fight for the M? There have been the very few exception of W's who said that is what they wanted to see the LBH do. I was not that way. I was sooo turned off to my H that there is no way I would have wanted that to happen. But I don't know your wife. All I can judge is by what you tell me. What do you think?


Another great question. I'm just not sure, she seems so dedicated to a R with OM and not "losing him" while not seeming to show a lot of interest in me... although she did make some comments to me earlier tonight while I was reading "Walk Out Woman"- she first asked "Are you reading that to avoid being a WAW?" (No) then "Did you get that for me to read?" (No, I bought it for myself, but you are welcome to read it when I'm done.") "Oh".

There is a part of me that intuitively feels as if I should do some A busting in August. As a man, I find myself asking the rhetorical question- what loving H WOULDN'T attempt to interfere or potentially stop a possible sexual liaison between his W and OM, particularly if he felt strongly beforehand of the possibility of it happening?

I can appreciate the DB concept of not pursuing, and the fact that my W as a WAW does NOT want me to interfere, hates me right now, can't stand me, etc.. On the other hand, my W is aware of my concern about her having intimate contact with OM in August but... I don't know for certain if SHE is 100% certain what my reaction is going to be. At the beginning of the EA, my W could be certain that I would predictably take measures to stop her from a PA but now I don't think she is 100% certain of anything I may or may not do. I do wonder whether- despite her WAW condition- my NOT reacting predictably to the vacation in August might actually do some harm in my R with my W. I can't help but feel that somewhere in her scrambled brains there must still be an expectation to be "protected" by her H and/or "fought for". And if that is the case, won't my failure to react as expected reinforce feelings (if there are any of these type of feelings within my W) that I don't love her and/or I really am no longer her H? Your thoughts on what to look for to see if my W may be looking for me to be the Knight trying to save the M?
Posted By: MrBond Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/22/09 09:17 PM
I seriously doubt your W is looking for you to "save" her from her actions. Personally, I think the best way you can "save" her is to establish the boundary of what you will not accept and that if she goes to OM, then she's made HER choice. It doesn't have to be YOUR choice.

If she goes on the trip and you have told her that it goes over your boundary and she rubs it in your face, then I would nicely pack her things up and leave them out in the driveway for her when she returns.

You mentioned that your financial sitch was harsh, so let her fend for herself. It's what she wanted any way right?

All you're doing is accepting what you want to accept.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/23/09 04:33 AM
Stuck,

Thanks for the feedback.

I'm not so sure my W wants to be saved either. Still working through my various options regarding the upcoming trip.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/24/09 12:12 AM
There was a word you used that jumped out to me that said you did not need to go there to try to be her "knight" was when you said.....disgust. If that describes your W's feelings toward you, then I say you need to stay as far away from her as you possibly can. Disgust is not a good thing for a woman to feel about her H. That means she is very, very turned off by ANYTHING he does. So save your self-respect and not go there in August b/c whatever you do to interfer......I think it would only result in her pressing closer to the OM. Perhaps the men see it differently, but that is how I'm seeing it from the W's POV. When you used that adjective to describe her.....that told me all I needed to know.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/24/09 12:15 AM
Also, please don't let her see you reading any more books about M or women. It simply works in giving her a more intense turned-off feeling toward you. Your goal is to cause her to feel more attracted to you.......not repulsed, and I am getting that picture of her--in this latest post you sent. Bet you didn't realize that "one" word....(disgust).....would lead to this, did ya?
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/24/09 02:36 AM
Quote:
There was a word you used that jumped out to me that said you did not need to go there to try to be her "knight" was when you said.....disgust. If that describes your W's feelings toward you, then I say you need to stay as far away from her as you possibly can. Disgust is not a good thing for a woman to feel about her H. That means she is very, very turned off by ANYTHING he does. So save your self-respect and not go there in August b/c whatever you do to interfer......I think it would only result in her pressing closer to the OM. Perhaps the men see it differently, but that is how I'm seeing it from the W's POV. When you used that adjective to describe her.....that told me all I needed to know.


Sandi,

This phone call was the only time where my W was what I would call "disgusted" with me- mildly disgusted at that. There have been two other times during our sitch where my W has actually been openly angry with me, one time during an R talk when she felt I was coming on strong during the conversation (looking back I was) and another time when I was openly ridiculing OM- she actually called me an a$$hole- something my W has never done to me before.

I'm really vacillating between doing something and nothing in regards to the August trip. Right now the benefits I see to crashing the trip include putting a damper on any potential sexual contact between my W and OM if not "busting" the A altogether, showing up at chicken$h*t OM's house for a surprise visit and surprising my kids- not to mention my W- with a visit from Dad. On the other hand, the drawbacks could include pushing my W closer to OM or not allowing her sufficient opportunity to perhaps "see" OM for what he really is (chance of that happening slim to none) along with negatively impacting either my self-respect.... something that I am giving increasing consideration to.

BTW, I may have mentioned in a prior post that it appears that it is my W who is pursuing OM more aggressively than the other way around. Don't know if that might make a difference in whether I should stay or go.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/24/09 02:54 AM
Quote:
Also, please don't let her see you reading any more books about M or women. It simply works in giving her a more intense turned-off feeling toward you. Your goal is to cause her to feel more attracted to you.......not repulsed, and I am getting that picture of her--in this latest post you sent. Bet you didn't realize that "one" word....(disgust).....would lead to this, did ya?


Sandi,

In the course of our sitch i've learned to accept the fact that in my W's eyes I can't do anything right so I don't openly try. I go to the gym every day so I'm looking real good physically. Bought new clothes that look and fit great. Keeping well groomed, clean and smelling good every day. Laid back, easy going and friendly, just not overly gushing and bubbly. I'm calm, relaxed and under control. There are some things that I do privately- like talk with friends on the phone- that may keep my W guessing from time to time.

I've never actively gone out of my way to share with my W what I'm reading- the other day she made a point to look at what I was reading ("Walk Out Woman"). What do you think I should read in front of my W that would appeal to her?
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/24/09 11:30 AM
Quote:
What do you think I should read in front of my W that would appeal to her?


There is nothing that will appeal to her. But it adds fuel to the fire when she sees you reading any material on MR or women....anything like that p*sses her off.

The more I think about the trip in August, the more I think you should NOT go b/c I think she will run to stand by OM's side instead of yours. I would hate for your kids to be anywhere around the two of you with that drama going on. I think if she gets to see with her own eyes just how sorry this OM is, then that would be nuch better than you helping him to look like the victum.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/25/09 04:05 AM
Sandi,

I may catch some flack from my fellow LBHs on this, but the more I think about it the more inclined I am to not go nor "crash" the trip the following weekend with a surprise visit. Aside from the other drawbacks mentioned before, it is not dignified and is an act of desperation.

I have to confess that I'm starting to really appreciate myself again like I did when I was single. I've always been a pretty modest person but the fact of the matter is that I'm a damn good catch... and there are plenty of women who would love to have my W's "problem" (me) should my W decide to toss me in the trash for that bum OM.

I love my W deeply and am committed to her and my family. I absolutely want our M to succeed. I am committed towards succeeding in making those positive changes I need to make to become an even better man and H than I already am. Yet the longer this sitch goes on the more inclined I find myself not interested in compromising my standards and self respect. I don't know if that is part of detachment or just me slowly getting fed up with the abuse...
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/25/09 12:13 PM
laugh THERE YOU GO BIG JOHN!!

You really gave me a big smile when I read that last post! Now, I feel that you are getting to the place you emotionally drop the rope and focus on you getting a life instead of keeping the spotlight on her all the time.

So many people do not understand the concept of dropping the rope. I hope you do. You seem to have what you need, now, in order to turn lose of that emotional rope you’ve clung to trying to keep her from OM, and pulling hard trying to bring her back to you. When you let go, then the ball is in her court and anything she does will be her choice and not b/c you’ve pressured her in any way. So, when she comes back wanting you to take her back, you will find out if she’s ready to go to “work” at having a brand new MR and not pick up where it was left.

Speaking of a new MR, as I’ve told you before, it takes time for a WAW to get over an EA. When she gets the rug pulled out from under her from OM, she will still need some time to get all of that out of her system and be able to think about making a life with her H. I hope OM does show her what type of person he is before anything physical happens, but anyway….if she can get her eyes open and see the truth, then it will be so much better in the end. She won’t keep hanging on to the fantasy! That’s the good thing about OM ruining himself instead of you charging in on your white horse to stop her having a PA. It would be funny if OM had another another woman there when your W went to see him. Let’s just pray that will do her fantasy days up and that she won’t be the kind of WAW who immediately begins looking for some other man…..to fall in love with!

What I’m saying is that when she comes back from Atlanta, and even if she is ready to run back into your arms, I would stronly suggest you tell her that you feel that the two of you need some work before plunging back into the R too quickly. It hasn’t been “quick” for you. But, she doesn’t need to be jumping from one R to the other…..if she gets dumped by OM. She needs to get OM out of her system before being a W to you. That is my opinion. I don’t think she’s in love with him….by a long shot, but it’s all those lofty dreams of the “grass is greener” that she needs to see.

So glad you are feeling good about yourself. You are right BJ…..any woman would be lucky to go out with you. Keep up the great PMA.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/26/09 08:03 AM
Sandi,

Thanks for the kind words. Yes, I do think that I'm starting to get to where I need to be in order to weather the storm. Not that I have ever been one to lack self confidence or optimism, but detachment is such a different feeling- I've never experienced something like this before.

Anyways, a little update on my sitch. My W left today for a week long church camp for women so it's just me and the kids. My W participates every year so it's tradition and the kids and I get along great while my W is gone. It's always a pretty spiritual week for the women up at camp, so it will be interesting to see what effect it has on my W if any upon her return... but I'm not holding my breath. One good thing is that there is no telephone service or cell phone reception where the camp is located, so no contact with OM unless my W drives into town for supplies, which is a possibility. Once she returns from camp, she is home one week before leaving for her out of state trip to see her family (and OM).

I don't think I mentioned this before, but our 17 year anniversary date falls within the middle of her vacation and I'm not sure exactly how I should handle that. I've thought of giving her a happy anniversary card before she leaves- I don't expect one from her- but I'm wondering if that might be provocative. It has also been suggested to me that I do give her a card and enclose a heartfelt letter with it but I'm thinking that may too much.

One thing that a couple of people have suggested to me is to make one, possibly two statements to my W shortly before she leaves for her trip in August. No further discussion- just one or two statements. The first statement to my W would be to tell her that I don't know for certain whether I would be able to reconcile with her if she has sex with OM. The second suggested statement- made in conjunction with the first- would be to tell my W that if she either contracts an STD and/or becomes pregnant by OM, it will definitely end our M. (Both of these statements are true BTW.) Sandi, what do you think about this idea? I'm considering it because although my W very likely knows my feelings already, I want to make sure that she understands my position without a doubt. I do NOT want my W misinterpreting my detachment as me completely "giving up" on our M... and I have a suspicion that this is how she may be reading me right now. On the other hand, I don't want such a statement/s to come across as either a "dare" to my W or given her screwball condition, confirmation to her of how best to go about getting me to file for D- instead of her. What do you think?
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/26/09 09:12 PM
Quote:
I don't think I mentioned this before, but our 17 year anniversary date falls within the middle of her vacation and I'm not sure exactly how I should handle that. I've thought of giving her a happy anniversary card before she leaves- I don't expect one from her- but I'm wondering if that might be provocative. It has also been suggested to me that I do give her a card and enclose a heartfelt letter with it but I'm thinking that may too much.


Don't do anything about the anniversary "before" she leaves. That is pursuing and nothing you say or any card is going to do what you want it to do (IMO). Wait and see if she calls while she's gone.

Give her almost all day and then if she doesn’t call you, and you’ve not heard anything about the OM and the A, I’d TM her and simply say that you were thinking of her while the two of you are apart on your XXth anniversary. You could always have something “waiting” when she got back home IF she doesn’t proceed with a PA.

Isn’t it ironic that she is planning this trip to have a PA and has left to go to a church camp? God may really convict her heart about what she’s doing, but most of it will have to be in how much she’s willing to open her eyes and see this stitch for what it really is and stop her fantasizing about OM. It would be “easy” to get caught up in the spiritual side of things while she’s out there out of reach of her real world and is “safely guarded” (so to speak). But when she comes back from camp, then she may quickly revert back to how she was before. I’ve discovered that when we are on a spiritual mountaintop that things are a lot easier than when we have to walk back down the mountain and go into the valley! The valley will be her test. We will pray that she will not only get her heart right with God, but that she will get enough spiritual courage and determination to fight the battles of temptation she’ll have to face. Most of those things don’t just disappear and we have to face them in order to be stronger. But, it is possible, and I sure hope it happens! Oh, now don’t I just sound sooooo wise??? (lol) cool
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/26/09 09:28 PM
Think I need to add a little more about the anniversary. That trip (if she goes) will determine the outcome of your M, I would think. Therefore, if she had the gall to “complain” about you not sending her a card or calling sooner on the anniversary, I would have to remind her that she made her intentions very plain and that any anniversary card/gift/etc., would have seem rather inappropriate under the circumstances.

I’ve seen so many of the LBH’s want to use the wedding anniversary as a reason for “action” on their part. Long, miserable hours have been endured by a lot of H’s wondering what to do. Many of them were advised not to do anything but send a TM….or at the most, a simple non-romantic card. So many of the men would end up doing opposite of what they were advised, but they couldn’t seem to control their desire to use that opportunity (as they saw it) to make a move. The W, however, saw it as pursuing.
Wait and see how things go. If she even uses the excuse to go to her parents and take the kids to visit, yet claims she won’t contact OM, you may have to decide what to do at that time. Here’s hoping a lot will happen between now and then.

Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/27/09 01:34 AM
Quote:
Don't do anything about the anniversary "before" she leaves. That is pursuing and nothing you say or any card is going to do what you want it to do (IMO). Wait and see if she calls while she's gone.

Give her almost all day and then if she doesn’t call you, and you’ve not heard anything about the OM and the A, I’d TM her and simply say that you were thinking of her while the two of you are apart on your XXth anniversary. You could always have something “waiting” when she got back home IF she doesn’t proceed with a PA.


Sandi,

I do recognize the card and/or letter as pursuing, I only gave it consideration because of our anniversary. I like the TM idea if no response from her by the end of the day- good suggestion. This is how I'll handle it.

Quote:
Isn’t it ironic that she is planning this trip to have a PA and has left to go to a church camp? God may really convict her heart about what she’s doing, but most of it will have to be in how much she’s willing to open her eyes and see this stitch for what it really is and stop her fantasizing about OM. It would be “easy” to get caught up in the spiritual side of things while she’s out there out of reach of her real world and is “safely guarded” (so to speak).


I'd say it's ironic too, but since God had a hand in bringing her and OM together at this "crossroads" in her life(her perspective), I'm sure the rationalization of the EA won't miss a beat during camp. BTW, I was mistaken about cell reception at the camp- she TM me late last night saying she got to camp OK. So much for her being "safe" from the outside world while at camp this week. No doubt she'll be TM OM while there.

Quote:
But when she comes back from camp, then she may quickly revert back to how she was before. I’ve discovered that when we are on a spiritual mountaintop that things are a lot easier than when we have to walk back down the mountain and go into the valley! The valley will be her test. We will pray that she will not only get her heart right with God, but that she will get enough spiritual courage and determination to fight the battles of temptation she’ll have to face. Most of those things don’t just disappear and we have to face them in order to be stronger. But, it is possible, and I sure hope it happens! Oh, now don’t I just sound sooooo wise???


Agreed. The best way to avoid temptation is to run away from it, not run towards it. I'd like to see her come back from camp with that realization in mind but I don't see it happening. This trip in August is her Super Bowl- she is going come hell or high water.

.....And you ARE wise.

Quote:
Think I need to add a little more about the anniversary. That trip (if she goes) will determine the outcome of your M, I would think. Therefore, if she had the gall to “complain” about you not sending her a card or calling sooner on the anniversary, I would have to remind her that she made her intentions very plain and that any anniversary card/gift/etc., would have seem rather inappropriate under the circumstances.


It will be interesting to see if she does or says anything regarding our anniversary. I kind of doubt it given her past performance on my B-day and Father' Day (nothing).

Quote:
I’ve seen so many of the LBH’s want to use the wedding anniversary as a reason for “action” on their part. Long, miserable hours have been endured by a lot of H’s wondering what to do. Many of them were advised not to do anything but send a TM….or at the most, a simple non-romantic card.


It's funny you mention a simple "non-romantic" card- I was looking for one of those among the anniversary cards at the Hallmark store yesterday and simply couldn't find one. Plenty of romantic cards though. You'd think by now someone would've thought to produce "Thinking of you while you stab me in the back" type of cards.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/28/09 03:08 AM
Quote:
Plenty of romantic cards though. You'd think by now someone would've thought to produce "Thinking of you while you stab me in the back" type of cards.


I think in a case like that, you would need to go to Walmart and use that machine where you can put your own wording on the card!

I know I should not have laughed b/c you weren't trying to be funny, but it hit my funny bone anyway.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/28/09 03:58 AM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Quote:
Plenty of romantic cards though. You'd think by now someone would've thought to produce "Thinking of you while you stab me in the back" type of cards.


I think in a case like that, you would need to go to Walmart and use that machine where you can put your own wording on the card!

I know I should not have laughed b/c you weren't trying to be funny, but it hit my funny bone anyway.



Sandi,

Actually I WAS trying to be funny, I'm glad I made you laugh! As serious as my sitch is, sometimes I just have to shake my head and consider how RIDICULOUS it all is. Then when I see a picture of big fat goofball OM, it's like come on, are you kidding me??? Unbelievable. I know my W is pushing OM to lose weight/get in shape but even if he gets trim, he still is damn ugly. I'm really starting to think of this guy as my W's dirty little secret...kinda like how some people hide their pornography out of shame/embarassment. Then again maybe it's just a case of love is blind...REAL blind <sigh>.

Anyways, I wanted to follow up with you on a question I had posed in an earlier post:

Quote:
One thing that a couple of people have suggested to me is to make one, possibly two statements to my W shortly before she leaves for her trip in August. No further discussion- just one or two statements. The first statement to my W would be to tell her that I don't know for certain whether I would be able to reconcile with her if she has sex with OM. The second suggested statement- made in conjunction with the first- would be to tell my W that if she either contracts an STD and/or becomes pregnant by OM, it will definitely end our M. (Both of these statements are true BTW.) Sandi, what do you think about this idea? I'm considering it because although my W very likely knows my feelings already, I want to make sure that she understands my position without a doubt. I do NOT want my W misinterpreting my detachment as me completely "giving up" on our M... and I have a suspicion that this is how she may be reading me right now. On the other hand, I don't want such a statement/s to come across as either a "dare" to my W or given her screwball condition, confirmation to her of how best to go about getting me to file for D- instead of her. What do you think?


Yes, I know that the above would generally fall in the "Do Not" category on your list. But should I make an exception given the circumstances?
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/28/09 12:23 PM
First of all, do you know exactly what the deal breaker in the M would be for you? If you aren't sure, then you may have to decide. Perhaps you don't know "until" it happened.

I have to remember my state of mind when I was in that WAW mode and if my H was to say anything to me that sounded as if it was a threat or a "dare" then I would react. I may not say anything to him in a reaction, but in my deeds. I will get back to you in a little while about this, but be let me know if you are sure about the what the deal breaders would be to make you leave the M.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/28/09 06:40 PM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
First of all, do you know exactly what the deal breaker in the M would be for you? If you aren't sure, then you may have to decide. Perhaps you don't know "until" it happened.

I have to remember my state of mind when I was in that WAW mode and if my H was to say anything to me that sounded as if it was a threat or a "dare" then I would react. I may not say anything to him in a reaction, but in my deeds. I will get back to you in a little while about this, but be let me know if you are sure about the what the deal breaders would be to make you leave the M.



Sandi,

If my W contracted an STD and/or got pregnant by OM, it would almost certainly end our M for sure. I believe these two circumstances are beyond my current patience/tolerance threshold. If there were multiple sexual encounters, I'd say right now there would be a better than 50% chance that would end our M. I'm not sure yet how I'd react to 1-2 sexual encounters or how that would impact our M.

BTW, any of the above would result in my W losing her membership in our church- something that she continues to maintain is very important to her and is currently a factor in her fantasy with OM (she would ideally like to marry him in our church if she could get rid of me and take the kids out of state). However I don't believe our church is as important to her as OM, at least not right now.

Also, another important piece of information I keep forgetting to pass along to you. My W is in "competition" for OM's affection with a younger, single woman he is also engaged in an internet romance with. My W became aware of this other woman early April, has visited her (OW's) MySpace page numerous times and has done internet searches on her. My W has openly admitted to being jealous of this other woman's relationship with OM. From what I can gather, OM has played up his relationship with this woman with my W to the point where my W considers this woman a serious threat to her fantasy R with OM.

My W also appears to be trying to "model" certain aspects of this other woman- buying and wearing the same sunglasses this other woman wears in her MySpace photos for example. I've also sensed my W attempting to adopt this other woman's "attitude"/beliefs as articulated on her (other woman's) MySpace page: proud/assertive/narcissistic "Bitch".

I know, just when you thought it couldn't get any worse with my W's mental/emotional state. Don't know what else to do outside of taking care of myself and my kids. I've presented my W with all of the resources one could offer her to help with this sitch and she has rejected them all. I have to admit, the thought of a serious "intervention" for my W does cross my mind from time to time.

My W has so much to lose- I truly believe she won't realize what she has sacrificed until it is too late. I hope it doesn't come to that. Look forward to hearing your thoughts regarding my original question along with the new information above.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/29/09 01:18 PM
Hi Big John,

This is a tough question. I think I know how desparately you want to stop your W from going on this trip to meet OM. After you told me about OM's younger OW, I think your W will be more determined than ever to pursue him,b/c now it is more than just her fantansy "love" for OM, but it involves a competition to “win” this man from a woman who is younger than her, so she has a lot of ego at stake here. I’m really sorry to here about this younger woman b/c it makes “winning” important to your W. What both of us know, is that the OM probably has more than these two women on his string. When you described him to me, I figured that the only R’s he has is with women over the Internet.

I have tried to think about your stitch as if I were the WAW here. Apparently she has been so open about her EA and talked about her OM to the point of being brazen. To me, that is a form of showing disrespect…but then so is having an EA. Anyway, in her eyes your M is over and she thinks she is going to live happily ever after with that OM. You have said all you know to say except for the last part of not knowing how your M will survive if she gets pregnant or a STD. If you tell her this last part (in hopes that she will reconsider meeting with OM) I really do not believe it will stop her. These are my thoughts behind that reasoning:

1.In her mind, the M is over anyway, and she is moving on with a new chapter with OM.
2.If you tell her you aren’t sure if M will survive if she gets pregnant or STD…it is kind of like saying that you will take her back if she screws around a couple of times, but no more than that. That puts you in a disrespectful and unattractive position. Makes you look “needy”. I know you don’t mean to imply that you are giving your permission for her to have a PA as long as it’s just a few times and as long as she doesn’t get pregnant or STD, but it may sound that way to her ears. Remember, she is not thinking rationally so you can’t talk relationally to her and expect solid results.
3.I do not think anything you say is going to stop her now. Unless she has a spiritual awakening at the camp this week, I don’t believe any words from anyone will prevent her from meeting OM. She feels this is her “destiny”. She thinks this is her second chance at happiness.
4.She has no desire for a R with you and therefore she is not going to be influenced at what you say about your future with her. It is over, in her mind, so it won’t be important to her. She won’t be afraid or concerned.
5.This younger OW has put an entirely new light and intensity on the “battle” for OM. It is very important to your W that she can win this competition b/c she is the older woman here and what better ego boost (in her opinion) could she have than to think she won OM from a younger contender.
6.Your W feels “driven” to meet this OM. She is in so deep that she cannot “see” and she cannot “hear” anything her family says, so I really do not think an intervention would cause her to stop her A with OM. If anything, I believe she would think those in the intervention were her enemies and she may think she “has” to leave forever. Even if her children were to make threats that they would cut her out of their life, it “might” put off her trip for a while, or it may slow things down in the EA for a couple of weeks, but she would only resort to being more sneaky and concealing her contacts. When a woman is as mixed up as your W, she would choose OM over anyone…even her children. This is extremely hard to hear, but you have to keep reminding yourself that she isn’t the person you M and have loved all these years. She isn’t the “mother” she’s always been or she would not be able to do what she’s doing.
7.Even if the intervention was her Pastor meeting with her about her membership in the Church, it would cause her to make a visible decision and even though she stands to lose so much, I think she would still contact OM…either in August or later on. It is something that nobody understands how a woman could do what she does. How could she give up everything for that sorry excuse for a man? It isn’t “him”, the person; as much as it is the fantasy she has built in her mind. That OM is nothing like her fantasy, but she has not seen it for herself. That is what you have to decide if you can risk with her going to see him. Will that get her eyes open to the truth? But now that I know about this younger OW, it makes things worse…as far as your W getting her eyes open. However, maybe the OM will dump your W and be ugly enough that it will shock her back into reality. I’m afraid that he will have sex with her, first, then dump her.

So, I have repeated a lot of things I have said before, but was trying to list the thoughts I had about it. After thinking this over, I believe that you saying absolutely NOTHING about the trip, OM, a possible PA, her parents, the anniversary……would have a stronger influence. If she comes back from camp and mentions OM or the trip in any way, I believe if you just keep your mouth closed and don’t react in any way…she will notice that quicker. Not responding in any fashion makes a very loud statement! Don’t act as if you are pouting, mad, jealous, or any other emotion. I would tell you to leave the room, only she would think you were mad or one of these other emotions. If you don’t show anything, then she will put more thought on wondering about it. Don’t fall into a trap of her “asking” you why you aren’t saying anything about her leaving on the trip, etc. Simply reply that she knows your feelings about “everything” and you aren’t going to continue to tell her again.

Big John, unless she has a huge turn around at the Church this week, then I think if there was ever a time for you to drop the rope and go on about your life for her to “see” that you don’t care what she does anymore…then this is the time to do it. You are worried about detaching. You’re concerned she thinks you’ve given up on the M. All LBH’s who are not truly detached think this way! Sweetie, you are not detached. You have tried, but you’ve not made it. Perhaps you appear detached to her…but I doubt seriously that you do b/c she knows you. She can read you like a book. All she has to do is look at your eyes and she knows you are dying inside. Can’t you see that it only makes it worse with you holding tightly on? I can read your fear in your post as it grows closer to the time for her to leave, and I believe she can see that fear in you. I can’t imagine how hard it must be for you to hide it! However, if you can at least pretend to drop the rope, then that will have a greater impact on her-- than you worrying that she thinks you’ve given up. You aren’t looking at it from the right angle. When a WAW thinks you no longer care what she does b/c you are going to live your life without her in it…then that gets her attention! You are afraid to believe that. You have been too afraid to do that b/c of your fear of losing her. I think you will be too afraid to do it now b/c you feel that you have to make some “last stand” for your M. Has anything you’ve done toward showing her your “stand for the M” worked yet? No, it hasn’t. I will not tell you that you MUST drop the rope or all is lost… b/c if she went on with the PA and things turned out badly, you would always believe it was due to dropping the rope instead of showing her that you still cared. To me, dropping the rope is a stnd for your self-respect. However, that is a decision you have to make for yourself.

Whatever you do, I will be here trying to support you. You know your W better than anyone. Just remember that she is not her normal self at this time and that is why you have to do abnormal things hoping to reach her.

All my prayers,
Sandi
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/30/09 03:53 AM
Sandi,

Thank you for another terrific post. I really appreciate the time and thought that you always put into your posts but especially this one.

Quote:
After you told me about OM's younger OW, I think your W will be more determined than ever to pursue him,b/c now it is more than just her fantansy "love" for OM, but it involves a competition to “win” this man from a woman who is younger than her, so she has a lot of ego at stake here. I’m really sorry to here about this younger woman b/c it makes “winning” important to your W. What both of us know, is that the OM probably has more than these two women on his string. When you described him to me, I figured that the only R’s he has is with women over the Internet.


This is the same conclusion I came to as well regarding my W's likely thought process. I may have mentioned before that the OM last had a real world R that supposedly lasted 4 yrs- apparently it was a live-in situation with a woman and two small children which ended 11/08 with OM breaking the woman's arm. OM told my W the OW "fell" after he pushed her; W bought the story hook/line/sinker. I've wondered on occasion whether my W might be some sort of "rebound" R for OM- not that it makes much difference right now.

Quote:
1.In her mind, the M is over anyway, and she is moving on with a new chapter with OM.
2.If you tell her you aren’t sure if M will survive if she gets pregnant or STD…it is kind of like saying that you will take her back if she screws around a couple of times, but no more than that. That puts you in a disrespectful and unattractive position. Makes you look “needy”. I know you don’t mean to imply that you are giving your permission for her to have a PA as long as it’s just a few times and as long as she doesn’t get pregnant or STD, but it may sound that way to her ears.


Very good point- I agree. In hindsight, I don't need to start splitting hairs with her on the sex issue- she knows damn well how I feel about it.

Quote:
3.I do not think anything you say is going to stop her now. Unless she has a spiritual awakening at the camp this week, I don’t believe any words from anyone will prevent her from meeting OM. She feels this is her “destiny”. She thinks this is her second chance at happiness.


I definitely agree with the idea of a R with OM being her "destiny"- she admitted this to me more or less early on in the EA. My W certainly seems to be doing everything she can in her power to make this R with OM a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I doubt there will be much if any spiritual awakening with her at camp. There is cell reception up there so I know she is continuing to get her daily "fix" by at least texting OM.

Quote:
5.This younger OW has put an entirely new light and intensity on the “battle” for OM. It is very important to your W that she can win this competition b/c she is the older woman here and what better ego boost (in her opinion) could she have than to think she won OM from a younger contender.


I think I've mentioned before that OM's behavior has been erratic at times towards my W- he apparently vacillates between loving/not loving her, being nice/not nice, tells her he wants to marry her one minute then says he doesn't need or want her in his life, etc. The guy just sounds like a psycho. From what I can gather about OW she is single, much more accessible than my W and presents significantly less if any risk of resistance from family/friends than a R with my W.

Quote:
When a woman is as mixed up as your W, she would choose OM over anyone…even her children. This is extremely hard to hear, but you have to keep reminding yourself that she isn’t the person you M and have loved all these years. She isn’t the “mother” she’s always been or she would not be able to do what she’s doing.


I recognize this and I think it's quite possible that my W could eventually abandon the kids with me in order to go live with OM. She can't take the kids to live out of state and OM is not going to give up everything to come live in our state. Plus OM has said before that he hated the kids of his ex-girlfriend whose arm he broke, so ultimately my kids are deal breakers (pardon the pun)for the OM.

Quote:
It is something that nobody understands how a woman could do what she does. How could she give up everything for that sorry excuse for a man? It isn’t “him”, the person; as much as it is the fantasy she has built in her mind. That OM is nothing like her fantasy, but she has not seen it for herself. That is what you have to decide if you can risk with her going to see him. Will that get her eyes open to the truth? But now that I know about this younger OW, it makes things worse…as far as your W getting her eyes open. However, maybe the OM will dump your W and be ugly enough that it will shock her back into reality. I’m afraid that he will have sex with her, first, then dump her.


I'm not sure seeing OM in person is going to do anything but reinforce my W's feelings for him. I think that he will eventually dump her, it's more a question of "when" vs. "if" and how much sex and ego boosting he can get from my W before he does. That and seeing how much he can "ruin" my W for me- someone who is far better than him- before dumping her.

Quote:
After thinking this over, I believe that you saying absolutely NOTHING about the trip, OM, a possible PA, her parents, the anniversary……would have a stronger influence. If she comes back from camp and mentions OM or the trip in any way, I believe if you just keep your mouth closed and don’t react in any way…she will notice that quicker.


Will do. So forget about the TM on the anniversary then as well?

Quote:
Big John, unless she has a huge turn around at the Church this week, then I think if there was ever a time for you to drop the rope and go on about your life for her to “see” that you don’t care what she does anymore…then this is the time to do it. You are worried about detaching. You’re concerned she thinks you’ve given up on the M. All LBH’s who are not truly detached think this way! Sweetie, you are not detached. You have tried, but you’ve not made it.


Agreed, when I fall into that line of thinking it does show that I am not all the way there yet. But I am getting closer- my post from a couple days ago definitely was what I was feeling and coming from at the time.

Quote:
I can read your fear in your post as it grows closer to the time for her to leave, and I believe she can see that fear in you. I can’t imagine how hard it must be for you to hide it!


I try to let it all out- the fear, apprehension- at the gym and posting here. So far I think I'm doing a pretty good job masking it from my W.

Quote:
When a WAW thinks you no longer care what she does b/c you are going to live your life without her in it…then that gets her attention! You are afraid to believe that. You have been too afraid to do that b/c of your fear of losing her. I think you will be too afraid to do it now b/c you feel that you have to make some “last stand” for your M. Has anything you’ve done toward showing her your “stand for the M” worked yet? No, it hasn’t. I will not tell you that you MUST drop the rope or all is lost… b/c if she went on with the PA and things turned out badly, you would always believe it was due to dropping the rope instead of showing her that you still cared. To me, dropping the rope is a stnd for your self-respect.


Reading a post last night from a former LBH who dropped the rope on his former WAW testified to the truthfulness of what you say. In that former LBH's sitch, his WAW D'd him only to later come to the realization of the mess she made of her life and tried to get her H back. Only by then, he had moved on and had remarried.

It is true that life will go on for me if my W and I D. In that case,it will not be a bed of roses in the beginning for me, but in the end it will be me who will come out on top. I know I need to learn to successfully detach if I'm going to get through this sitch with my W. I need to for myself- for my self respect- and for my kid's sake.

Thanks again Sandi for all your prayers and support. It means a lot to me. Talk to you soon.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/31/09 02:11 AM
Quote:
I try to let it all out- the fear, apprehension- at the gym and posting here. So far I think I'm doing a pretty good job masking it from my W.


I'm glad you told me that. That is one of the purposes of this board, but I get concerned when I know one of the LBS are hurting so much. I'm a fixer at heart and even though I have learned that we can't fix these things for people.....it doesn't stop me from caring about what they are facing. When I see a person who has tried as hard as you and the WAS just doesn't open the eyes to see what they have.......but then I have to remember that "I" was the same way. I will tell you this much, I found myself again, so I believe it is possible for your W. I don't know at what point and I wished it would be when she comes back from camp. But, you are thinking very smart, and you will make it....with or without her. It will certainly be her great loss if she doesn't wise up!
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/31/09 07:42 AM
Sandi,

Don't think camp has helped my W much thus far. She has called the house three times this week around bedtime and I have picked up each time. Each time she has been short on words with me and stated that she simply called to tell the kids she loves them. Of course, she says nothing of the sort to me. Then the second comment she makes she asks if everything is OK- in a tone suggestive that she is harboring a little skepticism whether I can handle taking care of the kids for a week or not. Give me a break. She has gone to camp every year for years- every time went smoothly with me and the kids. My response to all three phone calls is the same every time: "everything is just fine honey, the kids and I are having a blast".

I don't know what her problem is- I guess it's her continuing her effort to try to look at me in a negative light any way she can to assuage her guilt and justify her EA. She was doing this nitpicking with me before she left for camp too.
Whatever. Just makes me more motivated to become a "hard target" by being even more openly self confident and cheery.... and detached.

Well she gets home tomorrow night. We'll see what kind of mood she's in then. I'll be sure to greet her with a big toothy grin.

Talk to you later.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/03/09 05:57 PM
Hi Big John, I just wanted to let you know I was thinking about you today. How did your W act when she got home?
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/04/09 12:19 AM
Quote:
Hi Big John, I just wanted to let you know I was thinking about you today. How did your W act when she got home?


Thanks Sandi. I hope the break from the forums did you good. You were missed; glad you are back!

Well here's an update since we last corresponded: My W got home and immediately engaged the kids about her experience at camp. Barely acknowledged me when she came in. After trying to get her to tell me what she wanted me to cook for dinner with no response, I just left the room and went into my office. She comes in 20 minutes later teary eyed to tell me she is tired and wants to lay down and rest for awhile. She is tired from the drive home from camp. I say OK, I'll fix dinner and you wake up when you want. Two hours later she wakes up and has dinner, then goes back to bed.

I wake up the next day (Saturday), unload the car for her then wash/clean it inside and out for her. No thanks/acknowledgement. We go to a birthday party for the daughter of my BIL's fiance that afternoon and my W keeps her distance from me. BIL's fiance asks how things are going with me and W then tells me that my W told her a few weeks ago that she (W) and OM weren't talking and that OM doesn't want to see my W during the trip in August- something about him being "scared". I didn't make much of it- my W and OM are still texting each other as far as I know.

Later that day, my W and I are talking about her work and how somehow she needs to get more shifts in at her normally once a week job- we need the extra money now- and how we really can't afford this trip in August. I asked her what exactly are her plans as we are headed for some serious financial problems very soon. She replied that she was going to try very hard to get either more shifts or another job with a guaranteed 24 or 32 hr. a week shift after the trip in August. She also commented that she was "trying to work things out in my head" regarding our R. We talked a little about how fortunate we have been in our lives and I made a comment about counting your blessings to which she replied that she had.

Yesterday at church we participated in a post-camp celebration. My W put up a good show for everyone- I know she enjoyed camp, I just don't know whether it gave her any pause regarding what she is doing with OM. Last night, she made a big deal again about kissing the kids goodnight in front of me and telling them she loved them then turning to me to say a simple "good night".

Today she called to say she would be late for dinner- she is using a gift card from the PTA she got for volunteer work earlier this year to get her hair cut and colored. When I asked what color she was going to get she said "my natural hair color- something to cover up the gray hairs". I asked her what she was talking about- I haven't seen any gray hairs on her- and she said (adamantly)they were there "if you look real close."

This is ridiculous. The fact of the matter is that my W is a total babe! The hell with a few gray hairs. I'm damn close to falling off the DB wagon just for tonight- although maybe I already did yesterday- to tell her what a fox I think she is. Don't know if it will hurt or help things or not.

Talk to you later.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/04/09 11:53 AM
Big John, I think you are going great and don't fall off the DB wagon just yet. I do feel that your W is on the phone with OM when she makes excuses to go to her bedroom to "lay down". I think she was teary eyed b/c OM sent her a TM that had her upset and she wanted to escape to her room and have privacy to talk to OM and try to soothe him over. But, you can't very well stand guard in the doorway to see that she "doesn't" talk to OM on the phone. OM's excuse of being "scared" is about as flimsy as any I've heard. And, BTW, if OM wanted to see your W, he would send her money to help finance the trip! I think you W is way out of line to think you should put forth one cent in financing a trip for her to have a PA! If that discussion comes up again, I really think you should be that plain about it. She doesn't have a problem talking to you about OM, so you need to call this what it is. What she is doing is wrong. She is being a hypocrite in her Church and she is being an adulteress. Those words sting but she needs to face it and stop the games.

Posted By: Jman Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/05/09 02:46 AM
Hey Big John,
I have been reading your thread and appreciate you taking the time to read and post on mine... What I was wondering is that did you read women's infidelity 2 about actually confronting the wife with proof gives the spouse a better chance to save the marriage versus the spouse who is looking at the wife as an emotional blanket? What are your thoughts on this? Or anyones thoughts on this...you see I have an email showing proof that my wife has cheated on me even though she has continually denied it...I feel to keep my self respect and that my current sit is not getting better to try something else...
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/05/09 04:24 AM
Sandi,

That was kind of a silly ending to last nights post, didn't mean to be so melodramatic. My sitch is just such a soap opera sometimes it's ridiculous. Anyways, I'll pick up where I left off last night.

After my W got home from the salon, she immediately took a call on the home phone and walked into our master bedroom and closed the door. I was fixing dinner for the family at the time and naturally she said very little to me when she got in. I didn't comment on her hair. Shortly thereafter, I went into our garage to get some food out of a pantry. (The garage is adjacent to the mater bedroom.) While going in and out of the garage I heard parts of my W's phone conversation with (who I later learned was her best female friend). I didn't hear much but enough to realize that she was joking about her EA. It pissed me off. So when I went in to tell my W it was time for dinner I called her on it and said there was nothing funny about her EA- she was way out of bounds. She made a smart aleck comment and I told her I was quite capable of making some less than kind comments to her that would be guaranteed to wipe the smirk off her face. That nipped her attitude it in the bud. But I didn't stop there.

Recall when my D3 made the comment a while back "daddy (OM's name)"? Well I was feeling similar emotions last night. And, I have a couple of things that I haven't disclosed before to add to the context of my sitch: I am a long time professional investigator in the corporate world who works frequently with private investigators and attorneys. Some of my long time PI friends (who don't have business with my current employer)have taken a personal interest in my sitch and out of concern have offered assistance to me on their own personal time. I disclosed these people as part of my "support group" to my W within weeks of discovery of the EA and she understands the culture in which I work.

As one of my concerns early on was that my W was involved with a grifter- and OM may very well be- I accepted some assistance from these friends. Something that was discovered as a result is that OM apparently refers to his online girlfriends as "b*tches" and/or "Ho's". (BTW, I keep what is disclosed to me to myself- this time was an exception.) I didn't think my W knew this so I decided at the moment that maybe she would appreciate it given her joking about the EA. So I took her into the bedroom after dinner and told her. Surprisingly she wasn't shocked- her only interest was the source of this information. Naturally we had a conversation about this since this is completely contrary to the type of person she is in "real life". Is this part of the dynamic of their R or some sort of sicko role playing? I don't know and didn't get enough information out of my W about it. I did make a point of telling my W that 1) No one speaks about my W in those terms and 2)as my W, mother of our kids and a respected member of our church and community, she is certainly NOT a "b*tch" or a "Ho".

So, we had a R talk. I know Sandi, I can hear it now: Nooooo BJ, Noooooo! But the fact that my W is accepting of this type of verbal abuse from OM really concerned me. And so I heard from my W that because she was skeptical about "getting hurt again" by OM (like she did back when they broke up when she was 18), she broke it off with OM a couple weeks ago....before restarting things up with him again recently after he recontacted her. Next, I heard about how I don't love her unconditionally- like some people do (OM)- and that if I did, I'd in essence be what we (DBer's)would consider aggressively pursuing her and lavishing her with praises, compliments, etc.- while in the midst of the EA. Of course, I received no credit for sticking it out like I have been during the whole sitch. Next, I heard her repeat again how no one ever changes and how our two different personalities just can't coexist successfully within a MR, blah, blah blah. And then she told me how she had asked my BIL to have a conversation with me about a S with her and how much sense it would be to have ME move out of the family home given the sitch with our kids. (BTW, My BIL wouldn't DARE have this convo with me- and my W is a chickensh*t to even suggest it to him.) When I asked my W what she might be doing to "recruit" the OM to support her in getting a D from me in order for them to be together she denied doing anything of the sort.

After I had listened to my W, I told her that me being understanding of what she was going through in this sitch- and I can't relate to what she is going through- was one thing but that being used as a doormat by her was another. So we discussed respect and boundaries and agreed to have a separate convo about them. That part of the R talk went reasonably well- it was a discussion that needed to happen- before things de-evolved into my W getting emotional and stating how she just feels like she is always disappointing me, she always gives in to me, etc. and that "why try to work on our R since it just won't work". To which I replied in part: 1) I have never deliberately tried to make her feel like a let down, 2) I have always seen her as and wanted an equal M partner, 3) my expectation for our R is one that is both mature and where BOTH of us accept accountability, 4)our MR requires and deserves courage on the part of both of us to make it work and 5) If you don't try you are doomed to fail! smile

(BTW, My W told me that while at camp she had tried feeling optimistic about our R but that as soon as she got home last Friday she reverted back to her same feelings again. Don't know if I believe that or not as I don't think she missed a beat TM OM while at camp. So much for clearing her head- or recognizing that OM has got to go before we can try reconciling.)

So unfortunately I had a backslide the other night. If I hadn't heard what I did I probably would have been fine, but my W joking about the EA like this is some sort of silly high school R sitch really pissed me off. Can't say how much of a setback (or benefit) any of this may have had beyond shedding additional light on my W's R with OM.

If anything all of this crap just underscores to me more the value in detaching.

Well got to go. Talk to you later.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/06/09 02:36 AM
To be completely honest with you, I can't see where there was much of a backset. If I had been you, I would not have been able to hold it back as long as you did! But, she is not being truthful about OM! Plus the idea of thinking her H should be "understanding" of her and another man???

I am so far from being a person who would take verbal abuse that I can’t imagine why your W would put up with that creep. I can understand her being like a different person with OM than her normal character b/c I did the same thing. But, I am wondering if she’s not really “seeing” the man he is today and if she is thinking of who he was in the past. I suppose my mind can’t accept a woman stooping to such low life, however, we read about it everyday. Does she really think you are buying that lie about her breaking up with OM a couple of weeks ago? Then she turns around and expects you to be understanding? Well, there is no using logic with her, that’s for sure.

You might want to see what I wrote on Orich’s thread (Divorced not Busted 2) in Newcomers, about unconditional love. It amazes me what some people brand as “unconditional" love. I don’t really see how a person with any self-respect could be in a MR where they would sit back while their spouse did some kind of ungodly or illegal actions and continue to love them (in the way we think of loving) in spite of what they do. Maybe I’m the one with a warped mind but somehow I feel that if your stitch was turned the other way around…your W would not be feeling so “unconditional” about her love for you!

Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/06/09 07:45 AM
Quote:
I am so far from being a person who would take verbal abuse that I can’t imagine why your W would put up with that creep. I can understand her being like a different person with OM than her normal character b/c I did the same thing. But, I am wondering if she’s not really “seeing” the man he is today and if she is thinking of who he was in the past.


I also cannot relate to the verbal abuse and open disrespect. I guess if a WAW has low enough self esteem (for sure) AND is desperate to get her "fix" of OM AND is seeing OM as he was in the past (very likely)than I guess it's acceptable to her. I don't think it is an attempt by OM to get rid of my W- at least not yet. Whatever the reason it's my W's problem.

Quote:
Does she really think you are buying that lie about her breaking up with OM a couple of weeks ago? Then she turns around and expects you to be understanding? Well, there is no using logic with her, that’s for sure.


No, and I don't know why she is even bothering telling people this story. Maybe it is her way of trying to blunt everyone's concern for her since the whole family is pissed off about her EA and what a complete scumbag OM is.

Quote:
You might want to see what I wrote on Orich’s thread (Divorced not Busted 2) in Newcomers, about unconditional love. It amazes me what some people brand as “unconditional" love. I don’t really see how a person with any self-respect could be in a MR where they would sit back while their spouse did some kind of ungodly or illegal actions and continue to love them (in the way we think of loving) in spite of what they do. Maybe I’m the one with a warped mind but somehow I feel that if your stitch was turned the other way around…your W would not be feeling so “unconditional” about her love for you!


I'll check out that thread. BTW, it wasn't my intention in my post to imply that tolerating my W's crap was unconditional love- it's not. It's just when my W starts with the criticisms it pisses me off- I'd like a little damn credit for my efforts here! Especially since most H's would NOT be so patient! (Yes, I know, wishful thinking.)

Don't get me wrong here. I appreciate the concern for my self respect- it's an issue that has been raised before by several of my friends in the recent past. If I didn't think my W was not presently right psychologically and emotionally, I'm not sure I would be able to exercise the amount of patience with my W that I currently am. The fact is, my W is in the midst of a serious personal crisis. I don't like having to swallow my pride for the time being, but it is what it is. It's a casualty of fighting for my M and my family. I realize I have my limits. I don't presently know exactly what they are, but I will know it when I reach them. I really hope for my W's sake I don't, because it won't be good- I am not going to allow her to damage me like that. I have no intention of sacrificing myself to the point of losing my self respect. All the more reason to focus on detachment.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/06/09 07:59 AM
Originally Posted By: Jman
Hey Big John,
I have been reading your thread and appreciate you taking the time to read and post on mine... What I was wondering is that did you read women's infidelity 2 about actually confronting the wife with proof gives the spouse a better chance to save the marriage versus the spouse who is looking at the wife as an emotional blanket? What are your thoughts on this? Or anyones thoughts on this...you see I have an email showing proof that my wife has cheated on me even though she has continually denied it...I feel to keep my self respect and that my current sit is not getting better to try something else...


Jman,

It's been awhile since I read that book, I'd have to go back and re-read that part. In general, I believe in keeping things "real"- I like to be frank, open and honest. I don't have patience with someone who wants to p*ss on my leg and tell me it's raining. That is disrespectful IMHO. I don't like games. As you know from reading my posts, I confronted my W when I accidently found an email to the OM. For me, there was no other alternative. Given the circumstances, I don't know of any benefit to you NOT disclosing this information to your W. How are you going to reconcile with your W until you do?

I'd confront your W with the email and see how she reacts.
Posted By: Jman Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/06/09 12:37 PM
Hey Big John
thanks for responding and I appreciate your opinion.. I believe that I will bring it up..I am just asked her last night to go to counseling and she said she was not sure...Finally though I feel that I have dropped the rope..I was unemotional after...

BTW the page for that is 68 for the book not the pdf page...

Jman
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/07/09 01:42 AM
Quote:
I'll check out that thread. BTW, it wasn't my intention in my post to imply that tolerating my W's crap was unconditional love- it's not. It's just when my W starts with the criticisms it pisses me off- I'd like a little damn credit for my efforts here! Especially since most H's would NOT be so patient! (Yes, I know, wishful thinking.)

Don't get me wrong here. I appreciate the concern for my self respect- it's an issue that has been raised before by several of my friends in the recent past. If I didn't think my W was not presently right psychologically and emotionally, I'm not sure I would be able to exercise the amount of patience with my W that I currently am. The fact is, my W is in the midst of a serious personal crisis. I don't like having to swallow my pride for the time being, but it is what it is. It's a casualty of fighting for my M and my family. I realize I have my limits. I don't presently know exactly what they are, but I will know it when I reach them. I really hope for my W's sake I don't, because it won't be good- I am not going to allow her to damage me like that. I have no intention of sacrificing myself to the point of losing my self respect. All the more reason to focus on detachment.


I certainly understand what you are saying. There were some “responses” to my post about unconditional love and FaithfulH pointed out some things in my post the way he interpreted it, and made me realize that I sure don’t explain myself very well at times. There are different ways for different people but in the end, I believe we all want the same thing. I also see so many of us getting frustrated here on the board b/c we want to see something good happen in these lives. But, you said something that made me think of what FaithfulH said on Orich’s thread about how “nice & sweet” takes strength….and it does. I have always believed you were definitely a man of strength. There have been several LBH’s on the board that I did not see that way and as much as told them, but you have never appeared to be anything less that a man of strength and solid character. There is a difference in a loving determination and a strong heart to see ahead of the darkness. You said your W was in a “crises” and you are absolutely right! That is exactly how I described myself when I was a WAW. I first thought I was like having a MLC, only my age didn’t seem to fit the pattern. Long time board members didn’t think that was it, but all I knew was I was in a personal “crises” and needed help. That is very important that you see this in your W and realize that it’s not just a M thing with her. It is not just about the OM or you or the R, but it is “everything” that has ever happened to her all tied up together and she wants to escape this disappointment (for a lack of better term) and find a fantasy land where all her dreams come true. Crazy! She is trying hard to convince herself that the OM is her ticket. It’s not him. It’s her fantasy that she’s hooked on. God, I don’t even know her but I wish I could shake some sense into her, so I can only imagine what you are going through!
It is coming down to the wire now and I know you are sick over all of this. I wish I could do something to help. All I can do--is be here, and you can depend on that. I know why they call you Big John. You are a big man. Keep hanging on BJ. We never know how things may turn around. Don’t give up yet.


Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/07/09 03:50 AM
Well the W and kids just left for their trip. Before they left, I took my W aside in the bedroom and closed the door.

I told her first that it did not appear that we would be able to cover all of this month's bills and to severely limit expenses while on the trip. She was quiet for a moment before asking if we could try to refinance our car loan to get a lower payment. I said I didn't know if we could or not. We talked a little more about finances and I told her that the savings is gone- we'll have to start tapping 401K money pretty soon. I made the comment that we are paying a helluva price financially as well as in our marriage for this trip she and the kids are going on. I think for that moment my W started getting it- at least the financial part.

I was calm and collected when I told her that I didn't know exactly what to expect to happen with her on this trip. I told her that I am doing what I am doing because I recognize that she is going through a very serious personal crisis in her life right now. I said to her "Please do not burn your bridges with me on this trip." She responded "I won't" followed by "nothing is going to happen".

After loading up the car along with the kids, I said a prayer with my family. In my prayer, I asked God to watch over and protect my family while on their trip. As my W was getting ready to pull out of the driveway, she asked me to get something for her out of the garage. When I came out of the garage, my W came out of the car and gave me a big hug followed by a kiss on the cheek- I reciprocated. I don't know exactly what that (kiss and hug) means.

I'm sitting here writing out this post trying not to cry- hoping that my W does not burn her bridges with me. I am not wired like my W. Unlike my W, I very rarely vacillate- once I make a decision I do not go back on it. I hope my W remembers this about me through the haze in her brain.

I have 10 days alone- just me and my cat. I'm going to use the time to reflect and catch up on some projects. I am going to draw up a living trust for my kids along with an advanced medical directive. I am going to designate my mother and grandfather as my agents for both the trust and the directive. I am also going to reapportion all of my life insurance 100% to my kids instead of my W. Don't misunderstand- I have no plans on kicking the bucket anytime soon. In fact, I plan on living a long time! But this sitch has opened my eyes to some terrible possibilities for my W and especially my kids were I to die. They would surely be cleaned out financially by some parasite- if not that rotten bastard OM then some other OM. I just can't trust my W's judgment now- at least not for a very long time. So working on this and the other projects will hopefully help with my peace of mind. I think it will. Being prepared for anything always brings me peace of mind.

Thank you for the prayers and encouragement Sandi. And don't worry, I won't give up.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/07/09 10:52 AM
I read your posts on Jmans' thread last night. You can put your own pain aside to help another member who seems to be in a bad place, and that says what kind of man you are. I admire that. Even though you were going through a bad night, you saw him on the edge and was there for him trying to give support. BJ, I hope while she & the kids are gone on this trip that you can have time to reach out to other people here on the board b/c I think you have valuable information and are an encourager. I think you could reach men & women with your advice b/c you have that talent. They need you if you feel up to doing that. Glad you have plans to stay busy. I hope her hug meant something, too. But we've learn (I hope) not to set up for disappointment.
Posted By: MrBond Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/07/09 08:44 PM
Try reading this. It might help.

Hang in there.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/02/fashion/02love.html?pagewanted=2&em
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/10/09 02:33 AM
Just dropping by my thread with an update. TM'd my W last night at 11:45 p.m. her time to wish her a Happy Anniversary and got a quick response back: "You to".

Was putting some stuff away in the attic today and ran across a box with a bunch of love letters between me and my W while we were dating in college. I started reading some of them and it really brought back a lot of good memories, especially how much in love we were back then- and how much I still love her. I wish I could share those letters with my W when she gets back from her trip, but I know it just would be a wasted effort and could make things worse. I shouldn't have read those letters- they make me tempted to write my W an email- I know that she is checking our email (and I'm sure she is checking her separate gmail account as well)- but I know that won't help my cause either.

Well tonight I'm going to be hanging up a large picture frame my W took down for Xmas decorations last year and never hung back up. It has a lot of good family pictures in it- including pictures with me in it! Not sure how my W will react to it when she returns, but it'll be up when she does.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/10/09 10:31 AM
Hi BJ, been thinking about you. I hope you won't torture yourself by looking at old pictures and reading old love letters. You are setting yourself up for more temptations and more pain. Stick to your originals plan you had made to do while W is gone.

Aren't you glad that you didn't do more than TM her on the anniversary? Now you see her reaction to it. When is she scheduled to return home?
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/10/09 04:31 PM
Quote:
Aren't you glad that you didn't do more than TM her on the anniversary? Now you see her reaction to it. When is she scheduled to return home?


Sandi,

I am glad that is all I did, especially since she was very likely with OM at the time. I checked Facebook to see if my son had posted any vacation pictures- none- however I noticed on my W's Facebook page she had made a happy, suggestive comment about spending time with one "special" friend during her vacation.

I checked OM's MySpace page and he had a blaring marquee post announcing how he spent the entire awesome weekend with an "old friend". This just confirmed what I thought would happen- my W immediately dumped my kids at my in-laws and ran right into the arms of OM.

It's amazing how my W is taking OM's bait- hook, line and sinker. I'm sure that she will come home more convinced than ever that the grass is WAY greener on the other side of the fence. She is certainly being brazen about dating OM while staying at my in-laws with the kids. Her entire family including several of her friends know what she is doing- and doing to me. She is basically humiliating me in public at the expense of her own personal integrity and despite our church's stand against adultery. Is this some sort of passive-aggressive attempt by her to force me to file for D? If so, I'm not going to bite.

She and the kids are due back around the 17th. In the meantime, I need to start thinking now about how I'm going to deal with my W upon her return- I'm assuming she'll be riding a monster "high" when she gets back and I'll look worse to her than I ever have before. Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated as always Sandi.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/10/09 09:45 PM
Wow, I sure had hoped she would get the boot from OM...and I'm sure she will later, but I had hoped it would not go as far as a PA. Sure sounds like it has based on his & her FB. I am so sorry. Unless OM shows his true colors before she leaves, then I am afraid you are right about her feelings toward you. In my personal opinion, I think it's time to use tough love when she comes back from the trip. I would not stay under the same roof with her since she has been brazen about this A and has not respected you enough to protect your name or your feelings, nor has she cared enough to sheild her children from her adultry. It is so shameless and I believe she should be held accountable for her actions. Will the Church do anything about her membership? She probably won't care since she's gone this far! Anyway, I think you should have her stuff sitting by the door when she comes back home. No more Mr. Nice Guy from this point on. If you don't use tough love now, I think all is lost.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/11/09 01:46 AM
Quote:
In my personal opinion, I think it's time to use tough love when she comes back from the trip. I would not stay under the same roof with her since she has been brazen about this A and has not respected you enough to protect your name or your feelings, nor has she cared enough to sheild her children from her adultry. It is so shameless and I believe she should be held accountable for her actions. Will the Church do anything about her membership? She probably won't care since she's gone this far! Anyway, I think you should have her stuff sitting by the door when she comes back home. No more Mr. Nice Guy from this point on. If you don't use tough love now, I think all is lost.


Sandi,

My W is completely out of touch with reality. It's like she is a single 18 yrs old again and I and the kids just don't exist period. Or if we do, we must be completely expendable. Up until now, everybody on my side of the family has tried to keep out of the sitch as best as possible. But I got an earful today. Basically, the message was no one gives a sh*t anymore if my W is going through a personal crisis/EA/MLC or not, she is simply being a complete disrespectful b*tch to me, the kids and everyone else and it is totally unacceptable. They don't want to hear about DBing from me anymore- everyone wants me to open up a can of whupass on my W now. I think that even some of my W's family want me to react that way. I know that on my side of the family, they universally believe that the only chance of my W "waking up" is if she actually experiences a massive does of reality and accountability- possibly separation, most likely divorce. It's the same conclusion my IC came to a couple of weeks ago.

She is already on thin ice with our church with her behavior as it is- I was told recently someone concerned about my W contacted a church official anonymously to report her behavior. (I don't know anything about this.) I understand that this person plans on having a private conversation with my W. If she did have a PA which can be somehow proven (not sure what the burden of proof is for the church) then she will lose her membership in our church. Another cornerstone in her life wiped out.

It remains astonishing to me how screwed up and massively obsessed my W has become over this EA and OM. There is no way in hell OM is going to come live in our state nor is my W going to go back there to live- at least not with the kids. Yet she continues to try with all of her might to force her fantasy to become a reality- regardless of the costs.

I am very torn. Nobody is sympathetic towards my W; everybody is putting all of the blame for the EA on her. They are pissed off I am even owning up to not completely meeting all of her needs in the first place. They don't understand why the hell she didn't communicate these issues to me before in the first place. And, they don't think the OM is really much to blame since it is my W who is driving the EA and he has her chasing him now.

This OM is a very bad person who is and will continue to hurt and use my W. He seems perfectly content to assist my W in completely destroying her M and family. Yet, I continue to be reminded by family members that my W's free will trumps my obligation to protect her.

I'm in a tough spot. I have a lot of things running through my head right now. Any feedback would be appreciated.
Posted By: MrBond Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/11/09 09:33 PM
Okay, first off, it doesn't matter a single bit what anyone else thinks. Only what YOU think. You make yourself feel strong and confident in knowing that you are doing what's right. It's the exact same thing she's doing. She's doing what she feels is right.

Anyone who goes through DB knows what it's like. No one else. Don't look for validation from anyone else but yourself. We've all been there.

Like so many others have told you, you need to detach. The more you pushed for her to "see reason" the more she became set in her resolve to do her own thing. Think of her as a teenager (which is what they say people in MLC are like). When you tell a teenager they can't do something, they'll do everything they can to show you that they can even if deep down inside they know they can't. It's a process.

In a scenario like that, do you let the teenager dictate how you should act? Of course not. You do what you think is right and let them go out to fail. If they insist on getting a car, yet you know they are a lousy driver, you don't tell them they can't drive, you take your name off of the insurance and put it in their name.

Like the article said that I posted last week. You have to let them come to grips with their own decisions.

So if you knew that she was leaving on this trip that could potentially bankrupt you, you should have set a boundary of not letting her get to your family's finances. Cut her off. Tell her if she wants to continue to spend, then she has to earn her own money.

Better yet, since she crossed your boundary of her not seeing the OM, I would pack her bags where she can find them waiting for her when she gets back.

There are times when you take the Nice Guy approach, then there are times when you take the hardline. Like DB says, do what works. While they're away, write out what worked and what hasn't. Come up with a plan and execute.

Remember you can't control her, but you can do something about what YOU want. Stop her disrespecting you. Start showing her that you've got the balls in the family not the OM.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/12/09 02:09 AM
Originally Posted By: stuck808
Okay, first off, it doesn't matter a single bit what anyone else thinks. Only what YOU think. You make yourself feel strong and confident in knowing that you are doing what's right. It's the exact same thing she's doing. She's doing what she feels is right.


I agree with you. My last post may not sound like it, but I am very independent and will fight. The problem is that I've got friends and family that are getting sick of this sh*t and are telling me to just D her a**. It's their hurt and anger that is getting to me- I know that I can't let it.

Quote:
Like so many others have told you, you need to detach. The more you pushed for her to "see reason" the more she became set in her resolve to do her own thing. Think of her as a teenager (which is what they say people in MLC are like). When you tell a teenager they can't do something, they'll do everything they can to show you that they can even if deep down inside they know they can't. It's a process.


I'm way done reasoning with her. I am working hard to detach. She IS like a teenager- I'm beginning to wonder if things may have advanced to a MLC with her. Has anyone heard of an EA and/or a PA evolving into a MLC?

Quote:
Like the article said that I posted last week. You have to let them come to grips with their own decisions.

So if you knew that she was leaving on this trip that could potentially bankrupt you, you should have set a boundary of not letting her get to your family's finances. Cut her off. Tell her if she wants to continue to spend, then she has to earn her own money.


I agree that she needs to experience the consequences of her actions- that is one of the reasons why I didn't forcibly
stop her from going on this trip even though we couldn't afford it. Another reason was that I didn't want to risk dragging the kids into a huge fight with her. Even if I did stop her from driving and not taking the kids with her, she would have likely gotten a cab to the airport to fly and see OM- she has $500 cash she got from MIL a while back as part of an inheritance. I argued we needed that money to help cover bills and we would get it back for her later but obviously she refused. And I did not have the money or friend/family support to watch the kids while she was gone. Aside from the trip, I have clamped down on the rest of her spending.

Quote:
Better yet, since she crossed your boundary of her not seeing the OM, I would pack her bags where she can find them waiting for her when she gets back.


I with you a 100% on that! I would love to do that! Here is the problem: 1. Neither of us has the money to get her an apartment, 2. None of her friends or family members want her a** at their place (I know because I've asked.) and 3. I can't physically force her out of the house as we are co-owners. She refuses to voluntarily move out on her own- the excuse is "I'm not going anywhere without the kids". So that leaves us with in-house separation for now. Somehow I don't think making her sleep on the living room sofa when she returns is going to make much if any impression on her.

Quote:
There are times when you take the Nice Guy approach, then there are times when you take the hardline. Like DB says, do what works. While they're away, write out what worked and what hasn't. Come up with a plan and execute.


Agreed. I am open to any suggestions on hardline boundaries I can impose with my W while on a shoestring budget.

Stuck, I appreciate the feedback. Thank You.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/12/09 02:17 AM
Hi Friend, I've been thinking about ya. You probably feel that if you can make it through the next couple of weeks, then you can make it through most anything. However, I have learned that life always has something a little bit harder to throw at us, so what is happening now usually is preparing us to deal with things in the future. Okay, with that little devotional behind us......

Quote:
Yet, I continue to be reminded by family members that my W's free will trumps my obligation to protect her.


We have discussed how MLC is almost like a disease, and how we would treat our spouse if they were sick, etc. However, we know she does not have a disease. Anyway, I think your family wants you to stand up for yourself. What do you want to do? As a woman who came very close to walking out, I would say that your W needs to have a slap of reality. She needs to see something thaT SHE WOULD "MISS" IN HER LIFE. i AM NOT SURE THAT HAS REALLY HIT HER YET...THAT YOU WOULD NOT BE AROUND TO BE "HER BEST FRIEND". sHE NEEDS TO KNOW THAT SHE HAS CROSSED THE LINE AND YOU WILL NOT CONTINUE TO ACCEPT A m THAT ALLOWS ADULTRY. yOU KNOW, bj, THAT IS WHAT YOU WILL BE DOING IF YOU (sorry, I did not realize I was typing in caps)....what do you think her next move will be? Do you think she plans to come home and talk to you about her love affair and that you will be fine & dandy with everything? How brazen is that? But, she talked about it "before" she left! I guess what I'm saying is that you have done all that you could do and she still chose to disrespect you, God, the Church, family on & on.....and in her mind she got away with it! There has been no consequences! Don't you think it is time that she sees the consequences of her decisions? Has she had to suffer anything b/c of having an A with OM? Has she had to do without anything since she says that the two of you are S? She continues to go to Church camp and go about life as if nothing is different. Nobody is making her accountable.

Well, I have to go b/c somebody ghas come in. Talk to you later.
Posted By: MrBond Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/12/09 02:29 AM
Well she's set on talking with the OM. So make sure she doesn't talk about him in front of the kids. She shouldn't have taken the kids with her in the first place. That should be the first boundary.

I would also make sure that anything associated with the OM be put on her dime. Internet charges, phone, etc.

detach and play with your kids. be the dad that they need because they obviously don't have a mom that they need right now.

You are going to have to let the stuff with the OM burn itself out. Don't think about it. No R talks. No money talks. Pay the bills you need to. If she won't contribute, then she has no business being in the house even if she is the co-owner.

I would still pack her things up and let her figure out what she is going to do. Heck she can go and move with the OM which is what she wanted. How dare she say that she won't "leave without the kids". That's what's a kicker about our WAWs and the kids. They go and have A's and make everything about them, and insist on having the kids with them as if they are the greatest role models.

Puh-leaze.

I think you really need to do that. Maybe there's a YWCA that will put her up for cheap. She's not your problem any more. She's the OM's problem. I think if you start showing how you aren't going to tolerate her behavior any more (in a calm fashion) she'll start respecting you more.

That's what it comes down to. Respect. She's giving the OM more respect than she is you. How does that feel? Pretty crappy doesn't it? How do you get respect back? Put your foot down.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/12/09 07:28 AM
Stuck/Sandi,

Thank you both for your posts tonight. I just had an unexpected visit from my BIL and his fiance tonight- they came over to check in on me and of course we talked quite a bit about my W and our sitch.

They told me that from what they understand my W is really testing everyone's patience. She is telling everyone how everyday she is spending time with her best (girlfriend) when in fact everyone knows she has been with OM the entire time. My kids have been over at my in-laws with my W coming home around midnight the last few days. Apparently my W is now pressuring my SILs to take my kids over to their houses this week for back to back sleepovers to spend more time with her "best friend". My SILs are apparently very pissed off and are not cooperating.

The last night or two my W apparently came home at my in-laws at around 10:00 p.m. and went straight to bed. On one of those nights, my BIL here got woken up by a TM from my W at 1:00 a.m. saying "(OM) says Hi!" My BIL TM'd back asking what the hell was she doing and she TM'd back "(OM) just thought it would be really funny." My BIL TM'd back asking where the kids were and my W responded they were at my in-laws. My BIL then TM'd my MIL who in turn called him a jerk, saying she saw my W go to bed at her place around 10:00. Apparently my W had "gone to bed" then snuck out of the house later on to be back with OM for the night.

My BIL TM'd my W back asking what the hell she was doing and she responded "(OM) and I are just talking. I'm a married woman, give me a little credit."

Folks, I'm thinking my W's EA and now PA has morphed into some sort of MLC. I'm also thinking that OM is actively trying get my W to burn all bridges with everyone and isolate her to get complete control over her. This assh*le is a complete psycho predator. It's getting very difficult to stand down and not do anything- I know my W has to pull out of this herself and crash hard but she has lost her mind. Just wondering if I shouldn't try to fly out, get the car and the kids and bring them back- although they are safe with my in-laws. I'm thinking that if I did retrieve the car and kids my W would probably stay behind- she is acting like someone on a massive cocaine binge. Bringing the kids back is her biggest incentive to come home right now. And yes, I'll be trying to call the bank and credit card companies tomorrow in between a very busy schedule at work.

I'm in uncharted waters here and would appreciate any feedback.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/12/09 11:05 AM
Big John, my nature would be to do exactly as you have suggested. However, you might want to get some advice from some others who have been in your shoes, like Stuck, Puppy, Coach and several. It appears to me that some kind of move on your part is needed, but that is just "me" and not necessarily DBing. I certainly agree with the financial protection of your accounts and credit cards. It doesn't seem right to me that she takes advantage of living under the same roof as you while continuing her PA. That causes you to support her while she has an A. If you could afford to talk to one of the DB coaches here, it would be good counseling. I don't want to steer you wrong. My biggest problem is not moving into action. But I like the ideal of you going to get your children and your car and leaving her to get back home the best way she can. I think that makes a very strong statement that you are protecting your children from her adulterous lifestyle and you do not intend to enable it. Personally I think it is time for daddy to step in and get his kids and take them home. I think that has a wallop of a message even if you don't see her or say one word to her. You would be the "Knight on the white horse" but it will be for your kids...not her!

I would think the first thing she needs to discover when she returns home is that she cannot suport herself (which she already knows, but you've been doing it for her). Time for tough love! She has already run into the arms of OM in spite of all you've warned her, so what do you have to lose? You've tried to protect her from OM by telling her what sort of man he is and she won't listen, so now she seems to need a reality shock. Besides, I am wondering if she is thinking you are going to take anything she dishes out just as long as she won't leave you. But she won't respect you BJ, and I believe it's important to have that. This is a critical time to make the right decisions.


Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/12/09 11:26 AM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Big John, my nature would be to do exactly as you have suggested. However, you might want to get some advice from some others who have been in your shoes, like Stuck, Puppy, Coach and several. It appears to me that some kind of move on your part is needed, but that is just "me" and not necessarily DBing. I certainly agree with the financial protection of your accounts and credit cards. It doesn't seem right to me that she takes advantage of living under the same roof as you while continuing her PA. That causes you to support her while she has an A. If you could afford to talk to one of the DB coaches here, it would be good counseling. I don't want to steer you wrong. My biggest problem is not moving into action. But I like the ideal of you going to get your children and your car and leaving her to get back home the best way she can. I think that makes a very strong statement that you are protecting your children from her adulterous lifestyle and you do not intend to enable it. Personally I think it is time for daddy to step in and get his kids and take them home. I think that has a wallop of a message even if you don't see her or say one word to her. You would be the "Knight on the white horse" but it will be for your kids...not her!

I would think the first thing she needs to discover when she returns home is that she cannot suport herself (which she already knows, but you've been doing it for her). Time for tough love! She has already run into the arms of OM in spite of all you've warned her, so what do you have to lose? You've tried to protect her from OM by telling her what sort of man he is and she won't listen, so now she seems to need a reality shock. Besides, I am wondering if she is thinking you are going to take anything she dishes out just as long as she won't leave you. But she won't respect you BJ, and I believe it's important to have that. This is a critical time to make the right decisions.




Sandi, I see you are up and already posting. It's just after 4:00 a.m. here in Cali- I couldn't sleep. I'm starting to lean towards getting my kids and the car and bringing them home. My W's judgment appears seriously impaired right now from what information I am getting out of my in-laws. I have no idea how my W is going to emotionally handle leaving OM after this binge or how it might affect her ability to drive. I'm going to guess that OM is probably NOT going to dump her after this visit- he'll use my W up as much as he can and try to string her along until her next visit- probably in December. Still, I presume she will be dealing with some sort of depression issues on the way home.

Leaving my W high and dry and alone is a risky move- in her condition, she could probably easily transition over to living with OM and abandoning our family altogether. And we need her contributing to the household income right now too- she is significantly underemployed but does have two small jobs which account for a couple days of work every other week. Not much, but every little bit helps. At the same time, I agree with you that making a move like this would make a statement to her.

I'll try to sleep on it some more. Thanks Sandi
Posted By: MrBond Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/12/09 06:03 PM
Go and get your kids. They are YOUR kids not just hers. YOU know they are not in a good environment. Go and protect them.

Let your W fall on her own. That is HER decision.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/12/09 10:46 PM
Quote:
Still, I presume she will be dealing with some sort of depression issues on the way home.


Well, that depends on several things. If she thought OM was going to jump at wanting to get M right off the bat, then she may be disappointed at his reaction (unless he's convinced her that he's going to as soon as she gets a D, but that it will take time for all of that). If she's the type that can stay "high" on her A by fantasizing, then she'll probably be okay, but if she needs more than a fantasy, then she may be depressed. I think you are correct about her being able to leave her entire family to be with the OM. One reason is b/c she sees herself a being as if she's single again. It probably makes her feel younger, also. What she said to your BIL was a joke! She knows what lines to pull out when necessary, doesn't she?
BJ, you said she only worked every other week for a couple of days. Please don't be offended by this, but are you sure your family couldn't make it without her income? If not, then she must have a high paying part-time job! I just think it is sad that people feel as if they are "forced" to stay together due to the economy. I still belive that she should have to foot the bill for her cell phone and anything else that enables her A.

I understand that you are very concerned about the welfare of your W, but in times like this, we have to put our children first. I know you are thinking of them all and that you love your family very much. It's so sad that your W does not see what she has.

Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/13/09 01:36 AM
Originally Posted By: stuck808
Go and get your kids. They are YOUR kids not just hers. YOU know they are not in a good environment. Go and protect them.

Let your W fall on her own. That is HER decision.


Stuck/Sandi,

Thank you for your concern and your posts. I started planning right after my last post. I am leaving first thing tomorrow to get my kids. I will arrive unannounced but well prepared. I made it very clear to my W early on in the sitch that it is one thing for me to endure and be patient with the pain she is bringing me with her EA, but our kids are sacred. I will not tolerate behavior from her that hurts them. She and our MR are expendable where the kids are concerned, as am I.

I am going to my in-laws tomorrow as a father first, then a husband. I plan on packing up the car and the kids and driving home. It will definitely be interesting. I suppose my W may get enough sense knocked into her that she may wish to join us. If she does, I will be tempted to put conditions on returning home with us. But I suspect that ultimately she will choose to stay as she is too far gone now- it'll be like trying to pull an addict away from a pile of cocaine. Plus 14 hours in the car with me on the drive home- I don't see it happening.

I may check back in before I leave. Thanks again.
Posted By: MrBond Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/13/09 01:51 AM
DO NOT have her come home with you. She needs to get this out of her system. Let her deal with her own consequences. Concentrate on the kids.

If she does go home with you she will blame you for ruining her time alone. All you are doing is giving her what she's been asking for all this time.
Posted By: Jman Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/13/09 01:53 AM
Hey BJ,
Man do what's right for u and ur kids. You definitely have your plate full but like everyone says focus on u and the kids heck leave her there as hard as that may seem u said it yourself father first then husband. I know it sucks bc of my sit but man u have b een really patient and u should make a statement for your sake and the kids.

Good luck brother
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/13/09 11:26 AM
I only want to add this; is she come back at you with a comment like she did your BIL about give her some credit b/c she is a M woman...don't let her get by with saying something like that. If your children are in ear shot then you need to excuse them or yourselves, and then tell her that you don't give her credit b/c she had proven that her credit score is way below normal and there is no way you are going to risk her with something as vaulable as your children. Any time she has the brass to come at you with something as brazen as give her credit for being....whatever; that is the time to put her in her place. If there was ever a time to not hold back, I think this is it, but that's JMHO. She has proven "her credit"!

I hope her parents have their eyes open to what whe has done. We will be praying for you. Let usd know as soon as you can.
Posted By: WalkingMan Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/16/09 09:13 PM
Hi,

I'm not new here, just new to posting. I've been following your story, I have to say you're an inspiration. I'm anticipating hearing from you again and I will finally get down to posting my sitch soon.

good luck and hang in there!
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/17/09 07:20 AM
Hello everyone, I'm back home with the kids.... and my W. A lot has happened the last few days, so I'll try to condense as best I can.

Following my previous post and before I left, I learned that my BIL had sent OM an email ripping into him for his involvement in the EA/PA in response to the prior TM my W sent so OM could laugh. OM responds to BIL by threatening violence against my BIL, then my W follows up with a phone call to my BIL to tell him in essence that he (BIL) is a punk, that OM is a "bad dude"/dangerous who will beat BIL's a** if OM ever sees him. More reason for me to fly to Utah.

So I flew into Salt Lake City covertly last Thursday A.M. Only told my mom and aforementioned BIL right before leaving. Had consulted a family law attorney beforehand regarding what I was doing along with the local DA's Child Abduction Unit and covered all of my bases. Photocopied my vehicle registration showing I am the only registered owner of our vehicle. The only "unknown" was the local police department in Utah where my in-laws live and how they might react if my W did not cooperate with me taking the kids and the car. Checked in with the local PD and they said "no problem". Called my in-laws house ahead of time, my MIL answered the phone- only she and FIL were there- W and kids were out for the day.

Got to the house and visited with MIL and FIL for about 1 hr. before W and kids roll up. W did a double take and got upset- predictable. W started quizzing me on my travel plans back home and I kept quiet about it, stating my purpose there was "as a father", nothing more or less. She asks where I am staying- I say I'll get a hotel- she says "no", I can stay at the in-laws, she'll stay with her sister in town. W refuses to talk and leaves with D3 and I spend the night with my 2 boys.

The next day I talk to W and D3 is sick, was throwing up the night before at SILs apparently due to exhaustion/lack of sleep. I go over to my SIL's house and confirm D3 is too sick to travel. W is not happy as she is tending to D3 and not going out to have fun. W demands to know why I'm there and I advise due to concerns over our kid's welfare. W thinks otherwise, acts very badly towards me and states she is going to D me "as soon as possible" as my surprise trip there further supports her reason to do so, blah, blah. blah- whatever. (As a side note, things were not as bad- relatively speaking- as I thought at the in-laws with the kids and what she was doing- I still don't blame myself for doing what I did.) Whatever. Argued a while with W before spending the day with my boys doing fun stuff. Before I leave SIL's, I take possession of the car keys. W is pissed off but I don't care and don't trust here.

That evening W trys to push D3 on me to babysit and take possession of our vehicle so she can drive back to SIL's house to "rest". I refuse and offer to drive her back to SIL's but she refuses, insisting she want the vehicle for herself. (Obviously she wants to drive over to see OM who hides in the shadows during my entire visit. More on that later.) So I drive her back to SILs minus the car and D3- who I tend to and get to bed at the in-laws. W rips into me again badly and she states that she is going to "make me pay" for coming out to spoil her vacation. Whatever.

The following morning, I advise W of my intention to take our car and kids back home with me- she can stay at her parents or OM's place, I don't care- I'm leaving w/out her, she can stay. W freaks out, calls the local police who respond and advise me that I can't "abandon" my W with no car at her parent's house- they don't want her there and for some reason she can't stay at OM's house. I relent and agree to not "abandon" my W at the in-laws house- she'll drive back with me.

Before we left Utah, I told W that since she had apparently made her choice(OM), I was going to look to separate from her ASAP when we get home- I need to be able to focus on work and the kids now and don't have time to spare dealing with my W and her various problems/issues. My W backpedaled a little bit stating that OM was not the issue- she "just want's to be happy" and "needs time" to figure out how she is going to move out. I didn't get into a debate over anything with her- just got in the car with her and the kids and left. No discussion with my W the entire way home.

Since coming home today, my W kept a low profile before going to bed early. She knows I'm serious about her moving out and she doesn't know what she is going to do. Finding a place to live is her problem not mine. So my position at this point with my W is this: either drop OM cold turkey with no contact now and work with me on our MR or she is leaving.

I'll post more later. I'm still tired from the drive home. I'll check in later.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/19/09 01:16 AM
Quote:
W freaks out, calls the local police who respond and advise me that I can't "abandon" my W with no car at her parent's house- they don't want her there and for some reason she can't stay at OM's house.


Something about that does not seem right at all. Sounds very fishy. How could it be abandonment just b/c she has no car? It wasn't like you were dumping her in some alley. Oh well, it's done with now....but I never heard such!

I hope you will stick to your guns, BJ, b/c she has gone too far and treated you so disrespectfully. If you give in to her now, you won't stand a chance.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/19/09 02:20 AM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Quote:
W freaks out, calls the local police who respond and advise me that I can't "abandon" my W with no car at her parent's house- they don't want her there and for some reason she can't stay at OM's house.


Something about that does not seem right at all. Sounds very fishy. How could it be abandonment just b/c she has no car? It wasn't like you were dumping her in some alley. Oh well, it's done with now....but I never heard such!

I hope you will stick to your guns, BJ, b/c she has gone too far and treated you so disrespectfully. If you give in to her now, you won't stand a chance.




Sandi,

It's nice to hear from you, how are you? I was a little concerned you might be feeling a little burned out from the forums. I am grateful as always to get your feedback.

I agree with the "abandonment" issue- it really was not "abandoning" my W as I gave her several hundred dollars in cash plus she had a credit card as well. It seemed to me she didn't need a car while there or a place to stay as OM could provide for both if he and she wanted to. The other excuses my W and MIL gave included the kids are going back to school next week, W still has her small part time jobs, etc.

Since my last post, I reiterated to my W that she had a choice to make: either drop OM and recommit to our M and our family or she needs to move out. My W's response was that she was NOT going to give up OM, she wants everything to remain the same she just doesn't want to be with me. Then my W informed me (again) that she is not going anywhere without the kids- her same argument all along for not physically separating- and that maybe I should leave. My response: Hell no! So we remain back at square one on the physical separation issue with the only possible remedy apparently being a legal one i.e. I file for D and file a motion to get her out of the house- something I am very hesitant to do, although physical separation from my W is looking more and more appealing given our sitch. (Although I cringe at the thought- especially in this economy- I'm starting to wonder if we shouldn't try to cash her 401K in so she can move out.)

My W is not pleasant to be around and remains stuck in WAW mode. Her WAW skill set seems limited for the moment to acting like a b*tch whenever it suits her and trying to make me hate her and her hate me. She is passive-aggressive and clearly wants me to initiate everything and then just react to it. She still has made no effort to understand any of the negative fallout from a D (No, I'm not surprised) and continues to downplay the significance of the OM relative to her desire to D me at some point in the future- although he was "more wonderful than she expected" when they met again in person. She has no real plans that I am aware of beyond at some point D-ing me to live life as single parent with the kids- even though "things with OM will probably never work out". Interestingly, although she claims that things will never work out between us, she has repeatedly stated that I did "real damage" to my cause and to our MR by coming out to my in-laws in Utah. I asked her what exactly that meant and she didn't answer.

Also interesting was a comment she made last night about how OM told her he was surprised I didn't come visit him while there and beat his a$$- or at least call him on the phone. I told my W I was there in Utah for my kids as a father, not as a jealous H, and therefore my purpose there was not for revenge. My W said it was good I didn't confront OM because she wouldn't want to see me hurt- OM is my size only a "real tough guy" who has been in "a lot of fights" Yeah, that sounds really smart, go get in a fight with OM and risk an arrest for assault and maybe jeopardize shared custody of my kids. Are we in high school now? Give me a break. BTW, she had previously made comments about how I should have been pouring on the love, respect and all that other good stuff to her in the months leading up to the trip and her dates with OM as "that might have made a difference" since I had "the home court advantage". Give me a break! It took all of my strength just to get where I'm at now. I don't have the energy or desire to chase down cheeseless tunnels with her.

So it would seem that "tough love" tactics with my W are the only things that may work to my advantage at this point. Does anyone care to share any thoughts or ideas regarding getting my W to get out of the house to physically separate from me? A physical separation is my decision of course, but am I missing something at this point i.e. trying instead to enforce some strong boundaries beforehand? I agree with you Sandi, I can't give in to her now.
Posted By: MrBond Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/19/09 02:28 AM
If she refuses to give up the OM, then call the OM and tell him to pick her up. I think you need to do something drastic to shake things up. She's endangering the livlihood of your kids with her thinking like that.

I would lay it on thick and tell him everything that your W wants to do with him. Cut off all money ties from her so that she doesn't use it to further the affair.

She can't keep treating you like a doormat.
Posted By: WalkingMan Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/19/09 04:27 AM
I have to say being separated from my wife really gave me the space to be able to formulate goals and GAL away from the daily pain and drama.

I think Stuck is on to something regarding cutting her off. For me, it wasn't money it was my friendship and that was predicated on a commitment. No marriage, no friendship. She got to choose to leave and she saw the results of that decision and it caused her to rethink her choice. Unfortunately, like you John you throw an OM in the mix.....

I'm always amazed at the rationalization WAS's use to justify thier actions.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/19/09 05:07 AM
Originally Posted By: stuck808
If she refuses to give up the OM, then call the OM and tell him to pick her up. I think you need to do something drastic to shake things up. She's endangering the livlihood of your kids with her thinking like that.

I would lay it on thick and tell him everything that your W wants to do with him. Cut off all money ties from her so that she doesn't use it to further the affair.

She can't keep treating you like a doormat.


Stuck,

My male instinct tracks with yours in terms of shaking things up with my W. At the same time, I'm looking for some ideas from Sandi as well for a more balanced approach.

As far as the OM is concerned, he is a punk little boy playing little boy games with my W. He is totally beneath me; I have no use for him nor any interest in contacting him.

As far as the money goes, I'm seeking legal advice from attorney friends on how to handle that.

Thanks for the continued feedback and interest in my sitch.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/19/09 05:17 AM
Originally Posted By: Sgfan
I have to say being separated from my wife really gave me the space to be able to formulate goals and GAL away from the daily pain and drama.

I think Stuck is on to something regarding cutting her off. For me, it wasn't money it was my friendship and that was predicated on a commitment. No marriage, no friendship. She got to choose to leave and she saw the results of that decision and it caused her to rethink her choice. Unfortunately, like you John you throw an OM in the mix.....

I'm always amazed at the rationalization WAS's use to justify thier actions.




SG,

First question: what are you a "fan" of? Second, I'd like to hear more about your sitch, especially how long you separated from your W and what happened to both she and you during that time. Was there an OM involved? You mention that losing your friendship in conjunction with the M caused her to rethink her choice yet I see you have an upcoming D date- my condolences. What happened?
Posted By: WalkingMan Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/19/09 07:03 AM
Bj,

Well, I've been a fan of my wife for over 10 years now.

About two years ago, she made a major mistake you could say and lost her job. According to her, the issue had gone on for over 4 months before she was caught. I was away on a business trip when she called with the news. I had to get several loans, sell the house and move close to my family. I was barely able to pay our bills and this put a huge strain on our marriage. After the loss of my Father the following year, I had to help with my mother as well. So needless to say, I had zero time for my wife.
And my wife offered as much support as she could.

Looking back, I'd have to say it was last April when she began to plan to leave me. I had been on overdrive so long, I sunk into a major depression. The signs were there, I just didn't see them. Then, last December, I got the "I don't want to be married anymore talk." I'm pretty sure she was having an EA by that point with an ex from college. Over the next few months we went back and forth. I would set up MC, and she would bail.

Finally in April, she got a new job and had to go on a business trip. Everything changed after that. I snooped and found she was making weekend trips up to see the OM (CC records, Phone records, etc). When she came back, she moved into her own apartment and has been there ever since. She filed two months ago and we have one week before it's finalized. But she really been dragging her feet.

There's been a lot of drama, throughout all of this. I did everything, 180's, GAL's, acting as if; and it became natural for me. I lost 30 lbs and now I'm in great shape. She noticed, and then I got the whole, "why not before." But I stuck with it and she now knows the changes are for me and perminant. Anyway, when I do get around to it, I'll post my entire sitch on Newcomers.

To answer your questions...

We've been separated since April. She had been planning on divorcing me for about year without my knowlege. Initially, we got together and decided to be separated, but work on us. But once the OM got involved, things changed fast. She became bull in a china shop and the only good thing is that he lives out of state. She found a therapist, and says he's a god send, but he is not pro marriage and seems to be pushing her toword divorce.
She been blowing money and even though she makes a bit more than me, I end up having to help her with bills.

Finally, after reading some posts here, I 'dropped the rope.'
No more help, nothing. You asked about the frienship. I've been her best friend since we met and we've always been very close. It's the one bit of leverage I have in this. So, I feel that she must know what it will be like if we divorce, because I will not be her friend. She has to see what she's losing. I know it's because of this that she's had second thoughts about the D. Unfortuately, she equally stubborn. I have no expectations though.

At this point, I've been DB'ing for 9 months. I look back to this Spring and remember what h@ll my life was on the roller-coaster of WAW.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/19/09 11:43 AM
Good Morning BJ, I want to take a little time today to think more about your stitch, but I did want to tell you this much...and that is to not allow her to talk about OM to you. For a W to carry on about how wonderful the OM is to her H is very, very disrespectful. She doesn't even seem to consider what she's doing! So, whenever she begins to even mention him, hold your hand up in the "stop" position and tell her that you won't hear anymore about the adulter that is helping to break up your family. (Notice I said "helping" b/c she will get off into how OM is not the root cause, etc.) Or you could say that it is very disrespectful of your home for her to discuss the man she is having an A with. That leads me to the next step.....do not get into R talks with her--and she will be very slick about pulling you into that. Again, hold your hand up in the stop sign and tell her you aren't going to talk or rehash the same things--and when she's ready to say she'll work on the M, then you will listen. It is very important that you have the upper hand in the stitch at this time. I believe that you need to go as dark as possible considering that both of you are under the same roof. And, BJ, here's the thing...you are so protective of her and it's your nature to look out for her, but she has to suffer some loss somewhere before she realizes her bad decisions. Maybe you should consider what would be appropriate boundaries for the two of you being S and under the same roof. Make sure you don't do any "favors" for her---like helping her with chores, etc. Take care of your things and let her take care of hers. Act as if the two of you really are S. If you cook....I think it should be with the attitude that it is just for you and the kids. If she shows up at dinner time, you could act rather surprised and say, "Oh, I fixed something for the kids and me but you are welcome to share". (Only if you want to-- and depending on her attitude. Don't be nice guy when she's being a b*tch. However, don't allow her bad attitude dictate how you will feel and if you can...show a "don't care" attitude b/c that will get her more than you responding with a negative one.) Don't push it or act eager. Have a "could care less" attitude about anything she does!! If you should come home and she has cooked dinner and doesn't say anything about inviting "you" to eat, then that would be a good time to go get spruced up and go out. Act as if you had that in mind all the time.

I feel that you need to show that you are dropping the rope completely and do not hint at wanting to save the M or even that you still have any feelings of any kind toward her. Don't listen to her except "if" she decides she wants to discuss working on it. I think she "needs" to see you GONE (in every way but physically, unless you decide to leave)from the M. I have never told people to date when they are still M and especially living under the same roof. There are some board members who advise that but I feel it causes a lot of confusion for the children. However, you "could" leave the impression with your W that since she is acting like a single person, that it must mean it releases you to be single again also. If or when she ask any questions along this line...you don't answer! That is very important. Some men think they have to give an answer just b/c the W said something. Well, you don't. Just a "look" at her will do more good than any answer you could give! I know you want to spend all your spare time with your children, but at this particular time...GAL outside the home is important. (Don't forsake the kids by any means, but if you are "with" the kids all the time, then she will think of you as being "safe"...know what I mean?) It is important that you beat her to the punch about going out so she will have to stay with the kids. It is important that you are very mysterious and not tell her ANYTHING and if she ask questions, remind her that the two of you are S and therefore it's none of her business what you do.

Of course you have to decide what is right for "you" and don't do anything that is contrary to your beliefs, but she really needs to see her "losing you" and a glimpse of what that could be like. She doesn't have the OM with her now so it is a good time....and maybe the only time to set that into motion. You do what you feel is right about the dating. As a woman, I know that even when we act as if we don't want our H....we still get jealous if we think he may want some other female or if OW is looking at him! It is a dangerous game and that's why I don't encourage it, but you do what you feel comfortable with. I think you could stir her interest about your activities up-- without you really going out with another woman.

Well, I have to go to work, but I will try to think about all of this. I know it is a fine line you are walking...but not as fine as before b/c she has made her case known very clearly and she has went too far, so now you really have to step into the LRT.

Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/19/09 09:29 PM
SG,

Thanks for sharing your sitch. It is amazing how many things you, I and the other LBHs have in common insofar as our circumstances are concerned. I suppose that you are fortunate given your current sitch that you guys don't have any kids. That makes things much more difficult. As a survivor of my own parent's divorce, I know what my children can expect to go through emotionally. My W, whose parents remain together, has no idea what a D will mean for our kids nor does she have any real interest to understand.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/19/09 10:07 PM
Sandi,

Just popped in during my lunch break. Thank you very much for the feedback. Regarding my W getting jealous over attention I may get from OW: There have been a couple of occasions- most recently during a July 4th BBQ- where several women have commented to me in my W presence about how good I look. I couldn't really gauge at the time whether that bothered my W or not. I know that my SILs (and MIL) have all told my W how good looking I am and that OM looks and is an ugly skank. (BTW, even my W has admitted that OM is not particularly good looking, he just has a "cute personality".)

When I have mentioned to my W about being uncomfortable with younger women flirting with me (at the gym, post office, on a plane, etc)- because I want to be with her (W)- my W's response has been "well that's good, it will make things easier for you when you are single again and want to date". So I'm not sure if my W is really feeling jealous or not- I think she has really emotionally detached herself from me completely- although I do think that she still considers me handsome.

Going out on dates with OW is out of the question, however I have given some thought at this point to corresponding with some OW on one or more of the online dating websites if not for anything else then just out of curiosity. Perhaps if my W saw what other attractive women would be interested in me that might give her pause before throwing me out with the trash.

Acting like I don't care what my W is doing is going to become easier I think since after her trip and all the crap that happened there. Her ongoing treatment and disrespect for me and the entire family on both sides is really pissing me off. I'm starting to see my W as a real liability to me and my kids- someone who can't be relied upon or trusted anymore. She most certainly is at odds with many of my core beliefs with her behavior and her A.

I certainly have my shortcomings like everyone else and I'm 50% accountable for the problems in our MR. But the fact of the matter is I'm still a damn good catch and do not deserve to be treated this way. I'm getting increasingly concerned that my W is going to exceed my patience/tolerance without either one of us immediately recognizing it until it is too late.

I'll post more later. Need to get back to work.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/20/09 01:22 AM
BJ, I'm glad you know that you would be a good catch for another woman. That is exactly the attitude you need to have. I don't personally think people should date while M, but that is something I suppose each one has to decide for themselves. Be careful about the Internet chat sites. I learned the hard way. I was curious also....and very lonely & depressed. It makes one ripe for an EA and even though you feel that you would be doing this to see how your W would react, you are in a vulnerable position and could end up in matters being worse than already are. Not knowing how long your W thinks it will be before she plans to D you, makes one think that you have to go on living and not wait forever...on the other hand, if you still hold out hope of reconciling the M...you want to be very careful not to get another person involved, right? Oh, it is all so complicated at times. I do hope you make plans ahead of time to find places to go and things to do that keep you away from her as much as you can....without it taking you away from your kids too much.

As I told you once before, the OM's looks has very little to do with your W's attraction to him. I can see why that would be hard for you to understand and especially since you are more handsome than he is. Your W is headed for a fall and there is no doubt about that, it is just a matter of "when" and hopefully, it will be before she goes through with a D. I still hope she will get her eyes open even if her other feelings doesn't want to follow. But she may have her head so far into OM that she doesn't see OW noticing you. Hard for me to believe that a W would not see that, but some things can blind us.

I still say not to enable her in any way that would help her continue her A. When my H threatened to throw the computer out the back door, that scared me b/c it was almost my only means of contact to OM. My H would have missed the computer, but he would have thrown it away in order to keep me from contacting OM on it. Even though I could have found other computers, it would not have been very handy and I could not have had the freedom that I had in the privacy of my own home. So, there may be some things that you will have to sacrifice in order to not enable your W's A. I think the largest area that you need to hit hard and fast is with the finances. If the two of you are going to be S, then don't you think she needs to feel the pinch? If she continues to enjoy all the nice things she did before, what change will there be outside of the fact she's not sleeping with you? I know you aren't going to cut her food supply off or anything like that, but I think you know what I mean. I don't believe she even realizes all the ways she can suffer the consequences of being S (even in the same house), but you need to show her. The first thing is she should not have any of your income for her personal expenses and she should have to pay for some of the household expenses.

Since she has been so brazen with her A and thought so little of you or her children, then you might need to act accordingly where friends are concerned. In other words, don't attend get-togethers with your W. Simply explain to friends that you are S "in-house". I know that will be difficult but you have to stop protecting her, and that is exactly what you have done up until this time. So, don't go ANYWHERE with her....don't even make it a "family" outing with her and the kids together b/c you have done that and it did not work. BJ, you will want to do it for your kids, but it is time for you to stop having those family things and just tell yourself that it is tough love you are applying to your W. If you end in a D, you would not continue to have those family outings anyway, so now is the time to show her how it would be if D.

Act like you are S and don't watch TV together. Dont try to carry on pleasant conversations with her. The only thing I would say to do anything together "for the sake of the kids" would be if you ate dinner at the table all at the same time. Yes, it will be hard, but if it ends in a reconciliation, it will be worth it, and if it doesn't....it wouldn't change anything. I'm saying that you don't need to do anything at all with her. Make everything different, now. Make her feel the sting of her decision! Don't do any of those nice things you've always done b/c you've learned the hard way that being the "nice guy" did not work. Read Puppy's old thread and you will see how much he had to learn that lesson. It's not fun to be the tough guy, but it is necessary...now. If life continued at home the way it had in the past then your W would have no reason to back down from her decision. So that is why I say to make everything different from what it has been and make her feel the crunch. I'm not saying that you have to go around like you are mad at the world, but just act like you could care less "about her"! Women can't stand that! It is good that you are ticked b/c that will help you to detach and maybe you will get to the place that you don't care so much what she decides to do and then it won't hurt so badly. It usually takes men that much before they can truly drop the rope and that is when the WAW usually realizes what she's done. I think I've said all this before, so I won't just keep on, but I mainly wanted to let you know that I am still in your corner supporting you.
Posted By: Jman Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/20/09 08:26 AM
I am going to use this advice from Sandi. It seems to be preety solid stuff and totally makes sense.

This seems totally different from the DR info?

But it makes sense
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/21/09 03:53 AM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
BJ, I'm glad you know that you would be a good catch for another woman. That is exactly the attitude you need to have. I don't personally think people should date while M, but that is something I suppose each one has to decide for themselves. Be careful about the Internet chat sites. I learned the hard way. I was curious also....and very lonely & depressed. It makes one ripe for an EA and even though you feel that you would be doing this to see how your W would react, you are in a vulnerable position and could end up in matters being worse than already are.


Sandi, point taken. I was speaking in the heat of the moment when I made the comment about those websites. I have enough on my plate already and don't need to be dealing with more stuff. Something like that goes against my principles anyway. I was mad at myself after I posted those comments because it just illustrates how much my W has hurt me for me to even entertain thoughts like that.

Quote:
As I told you once before, the OM's looks has very little to do with your W's attraction to him. I can see why that would be hard for you to understand and especially since you are more handsome than he is.


I know you have. It's not just the looks, it's everything. He is my opposite- in a negative way- in many areas. It just drives me nuts.

Quote:
I think the largest area that you need to hit hard and fast is with the finances. If the two of you are going to be S, then don't you think she needs to feel the pinch? If she continues to enjoy all the nice things she did before, what change will there be outside of the fact she's not sleeping with you? I know you aren't going to cut her food supply off or anything like that, but I think you know what I mean. I don't believe she even realizes all the ways she can suffer the consequences of being S (even in the same house), but you need to show her. The first thing is she should not have any of your income for her personal expenses and she should have to pay for some of the household expenses.


Agreed. She has been griping about "what are we going to do...we need to S...we can't keep living like this...blah, blah, blah. I keep telling her it's her problem- she is the one who needs to go. The kids and I want this M and family to survive, she does not. Either work on the M with me or go find another place to live to sort things out by herself. She keeps pushing this crap back on me and I'm getting tired of it. I've told her that at this point it is about survival- her behavior is affecting my performance at work- I work from home- and if I lose my job we are screwed.

Quote:
I know that will be difficult but you have to stop protecting her, and that is exactly what you have done up until this time. So, don't go ANYWHERE with her....don't even make it a "family" outing with her and the kids together b/c you have done that and it did not work. BJ, you will want to do it for your kids, but it is time for you to stop having those family things and just tell yourself that it is tough love you are applying to your W. If you end in a D, you would not continue to have those family outings anyway, so now is the time to show her how it would be if D.


Agreed. Heck, she has already burned bridges with several other people in the family anyway so this shouldn't be too hard. As a matter of fact, she has her B-day coming up next week. I was going to do something for the benefit of the kids at least- a cake, etc.- but given how she did a half-a$$ job at throwing my B-Day in April plus what has happened since, I may not do anything at all. No card either. Just let it be another day. I hate being mean to her, but I'm tired of getting my feelings stomped on day in day out.

Quote:
Act like you are S and don't watch TV together. Dont try to carry on pleasant conversations with her. The only thing I would say to do anything together "for the sake of the kids" would be if you ate dinner at the table all at the same time. Yes, it will be hard, but if it ends in a reconciliation, it will be worth it, and if it doesn't....it wouldn't change anything. I'm saying that you don't need to do anything at all with her. Make everything different, now. Make her feel the sting of her decision!


This is precisely what I am doing right now. You know, she had the gall today to reiterate that she really expected more effort on my part a few months ago to "try and win her back" when she was "wavering" on her decision to S and eventually D me- in the midst of her EA of course. Of course, "now it's too late" according to her. I started to argue with her then had to stop myself. What a bunch of B.S.!

Quote:
I'm not saying that you have to go around like you are mad at the world, but just act like you could care less "about her"! Women can't stand that! It is good that you are ticked b/c that will help you to detach and maybe you will get to the place that you don't care so much what she decides to do and then it won't hurt so badly. It usually takes men that much before they can truly drop the rope and that is when the WAW usually realizes what she's done.


I'm there now. My W is acting like a friggin' idiot and coward with no plan and no clue what the hell she is doing. I have myself to worry about and three kids counting on me. Right now, my W can just keep her head up her a$$ for all I care. It's all business right now and I'm keeping things real. Speaking of idiots, I may be one myself for loving her. smile

Quote:
I think I've said all this before, so I won't just keep on, but I mainly wanted to let you know that I am still in your corner supporting you.


Your feedback and support are invaluable. Thank you as always Sandi!
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/23/09 12:38 AM
Hey Big John, just checking in to see how you are doing. So, how does the W like tough love? Bet she is surprised at your 180 b/c she's been spoiled by BJ's sweet ways in the past and by getting her "princess" ways. I hope she is seeing that it is not cracked up to be all she thought!

I know you love her and it's hard doing what you are....but you know you have to BJ. Don't cave on her birthday, just remember that you have to act like you are S and don't do things "for the sake of the kids" b/c it will put you in a defeated place with your W. Be tough!
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/23/09 05:18 AM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Hey Big John, just checking in to see how you are doing. So, how does the W like tough love? Bet she is surprised at your 180 b/c she's been spoiled by BJ's sweet ways in the past and by getting her "princess" ways. I hope she is seeing that it is not cracked up to be all she thought!

I know you love her and it's hard doing what you are....but you know you have to BJ. Don't cave on her birthday, just remember that you have to act like you are S and don't do things "for the sake of the kids" b/c it will put you in a defeated place with your W. Be tough!


Sandi,

So far my W doesn't like it one bit. Right now she is pissed off with me about a follow up discussion I had with her tonight about her moving out to an apartment. She tried using the "it wouldn't be fair to the kids" argument followed by "I'm not going anywhere." I told her I'm not going anywhere either to which she responded "we will see about that, I'm going to get legal advice next week." I told her that I already had.

Apparently my W thinks that I- the primary breadwinner for the family- should move out of the house that I alone remodeled for our family, that I have maintained a home office in continuously for the last 11 years so that she can enjoy majority custody of the kids while continuing her EA and remaining underemployed. "You can see them on the weekends" she says.

I told my W that she is done wiping her feet on me and the rest of the family with her EA, her attitude, everything. I'm DONE with her crap! If she thinks she is going to get away with giving everyone the middle finger and have everything go her way just like in the movies she is wrong. Boy is she in for a rude awakening.

You know, up until recently I was opposed to physical separation with my W because I really wanted her to see my efforts and hard work and try to consider reconciliation with me. But she just doesn't want anything to do with me right now. In fact, as much as it hurts to say it, she is just being a flat out b*tch. So I'm looking forward to S with my W for the time being and hoping that she won't make it too messy.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/23/09 10:46 AM
I can't think of anything much worse to have to live in when a couple is "done" with their M and having to stay under the same roof. I would like to offer this suggestion and it may not sound like a very "graceful" one but I believe your W should not get off so easily when she comes at you the way she does. I think you should not refer to it as an EA and just say an affair. She needs to be hit in the face with that every time b/c she should have to own up to her fault and so far she is still trying to point her finger at you for the breakdown instead of taking the blame. I wouldn't soft cushion anything for her. Whenever she speaks as if it is a certain fact that "she" will have custody of the kids and home, can you put her in her place by reminding her that judges don't favor mothers who leave their children while they sneak out to go screw OM. No, on the other hand, that might not be a good idea to say that....and leave it for the lawyer to spring on her. I get caugth up in this and am angry at her and don't even know her! It shows how she is still in a state of "dream land" when she can do her children the way she has and still think that she won't have any problem getting full custody of them. I don't know the laws of your state, but I think that most states do not automatically give the wife/nother everything like they did decades ago. If there is anyway you can prove how you have been the one to stand by the kids and provided for the family while she was the one out doing things she shouldn't have....then that will get a judge's attention. Otherwise, it may be just "she said/he said"....but that is why they have lawyers to work through all the mess. It seems to me that if you work from your home that that would have to be taken into account also. I don't know, I'm blowing off steam as if I'm part of the family here. I should be giving you encouragement instead of talking like this. But it makes me angry at her to treat her family the way she has. BTW, do you have copies of her cell phone bill where she's contacted OM?

I hope you have the strength to contiue to stay there in the house and not give into her pressing you to leave. She wanted this and I would remind her of that fact every time she brought the subject up. Remember, no more Mr. Nice Guy! Don't make anything easy for her--so that she will get a small taste of what life without you will be.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/23/09 11:13 AM
I can't think of anything much worse to have to live in when a couple is "done" with their M and having to stay under the same roof. I would like to offer this suggestion and it may not sound like a very "graceful" one but I believe your W should not get off so easily when she comes at you the way she does. I think you should not refer to it as an EA and just say an affair (and if the kids aren't around....maybe be more crude about it). The reason I say this is b/c she needs to have the romantic vale removed from that R with the OM. It needs to sound as ugly as it really is--instead of how she has it imagined in her mind. It isn't some high school fling....it is adultry and it needs to be exposed for what it is. Do the kids know about OM and what their mother did while on the trip? How does she act around them? How do they feel about her?

She needs to be hit in the face with that every time b/c she should have to own up to her fault and so far she is still trying to point her finger at you for the breakdown instead of taking the blame. That is her WAW mentality of finding justification for what she's done. I wouldn't soft cushion anything for her. Whenever she speaks as if it is a certain fact that "she" will have custody of the kids and house, can you put her in her place by reminding her that judges don't favor mothers who leave their children while they sneak out to go screw OM? No, on the other hand, that might not be a good idea to say that....and just leave it for the lawyer to spring on her. I get caugth up in this and am angry at her and don't even know her! It shows how she is still in a state of "dream land" when she can do her children the way she has and still think that she won't have any problem getting full custody of them. I don't know the laws of your state, but I think that most states do not automatically give the wife/nother everything like they did decades ago. If there is anyway you can prove how you have been the one to stand by the kids and provided for the family while she was the one out doing things she shouldn't have....then that will get a judge's attention. Otherwise, it may be just "she said/he said"....but that is why they have lawyers to work through all the mess. It seems to me that if you work from your home that that would have to be taken into account also. I don't know, I'm blowing off steam as if I'm part of the family here. I should be giving you encouragement instead of talking like this. But it makes me angry at her to treat her family the way she has. BTW, do you have copies of her cell phone bill where she's contacted OM? Maybe your BIL could send a notorized statement of how she behaved while on the trip.....I don't know b/c I've not been down this road.

I hope you have the strength to contiue to stay there in the house and not give into her pressing you to leave. She wanted this and I would remind her of that fact every time she brought the subject up. Remember, no more Mr. Nice Guy! Don't make anything easy for her--so that she will get a small taste of what life without you will be.

BJ, you are to be commended for your efforts and please do not compare yourself to the OM b/c the fact that he is totally opposite from you shows just how "sick" her frame of mind is. I think that b/c he is so different from anything that would "fit" into the family...says a lot but I'm no doctor so I don't know how to put it into words. I know that my OM was completely opposite from my H and his lifestyle was opposite from ours, so I think that was what drew me to him b/c I was trying to escape from my own life and all that represented it. I did not want anything to "remind" me of my "old life" b/c I wanted something entirely different & new. I believe that had a lot to do with your W drawing to her OM. It is craziness b/c none of it makes sense. There is no telling how long ago that this started working on her mind and it continued to grow into this monster. She does not want to see it for what it truly is and she's still living in a fantasy in spite of the conditions, so that is why you must continue to apply tough love.

Take care of "you" and remember we are here for you.


Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/23/09 11:15 AM
I didn't realize I had hit the submit key with my post and wasn't through editing it, so that is why it looks like I double posted. The second one is the one I meant to send originally.
Posted By: Jman Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/23/09 04:42 PM
That is great info Sandi, I am going to use it for my sit.

The W is in the same thinking mode of thinking all of a sudden life could be better w/o me after 11 yrs. Crazy.

BJ, man your sit is unfortunate but I applaud you brother for your strength. I don't know how you do it but keep it up.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/23/09 06:42 PM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
I can't think of anything much worse to have to live in when a couple is "done" with their M and having to stay under the same roof.


Sandi,

It's not easy, that is for sure. Right now, she is "done" with our M and does not want to work with me on a "new" M. I don't want the old M either. I'm not done fighting yet- at least for a new M- but I am "done" with her attitude and selfishness.

Quote:
The reason I say this is b/c she needs to have the romantic vale removed from that R with the OM. It needs to sound as ugly as it really is--instead of how she has it imagined in her mind. It isn't some high school fling....it is adultry and it needs to be exposed for what it is. Do the kids know about OM and what their mother did while on the trip? How does she act around them? How do they feel about her?


I have underscored the sleaziness of it all with her but she just won't see the A for what it is. It's all about not being happy with me, according to her. No personal accountability on her part whatsoever. My sons know something is up with my W, they just don't know exactly what her problem is. I'm pretty sure the kids don't know what she did on the trip- they were pretty involved with playing with their cousins.

Quote:
I don't know, I'm blowing off steam as if I'm part of the family here. I should be giving you encouragement instead of talking like this. But it makes me angry at her to treat her family the way she has. BTW, do you have copies of her cell phone bill where she's contacted OM? Maybe your BIL could send a notorized statement of how she behaved while on the trip.....I don't know b/c I've not been down this road.


Everyone is pissed off at my W. My BIL has written her off completely after OM threatened him and my W backed up OM. My BIL and W are no longer speaking to each other. My BIL has told me "just divorce her a$$". I have another SIL and BIL that are equally upset over my W's behavior. My FIL and MIL are very upset and would like to see my W and I reconcile. Everyone on my side of the family are pissed and think our M is over.

BTW, California is a no-fault divorce state so all of the crap my W has pulled thus far is moot.

As always, thanks again for your support and encouragement Sandi.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/23/09 06:46 PM
Originally Posted By: Jman
BJ, man your sit is unfortunate but I applaud you brother for your strength. I don't know how you do it but keep it up.


Jman,

I draw strength from my personal beliefs and principles that I have always lived by- that is what keeps me going. Oh, and did I mention that I am also very stubborn? That too.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/23/09 07:29 PM
Quote:
My FIL and MIL are very upset and would like to see my W and I reconcile. Everyone on my side of the family are pissed and think our M is over.


I'm sure it must terrify your inlaws at the possibility of their D ending up with a sleeze like OM!
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/24/09 02:54 AM
Sandi,

They are very concerned about my W ending up with OM, no doubt about it. Understandably they hate this SOB OM along with the rest of the extended family- he will never be accepted by anyone. Most definitely, both of my sons will hate this prick not to mention harbor much anger towards my W for breaking up our family. Yet, according to my W, there is very little possibility of her and OM getting together as he won't move to Calif. and she can't move back there because of the kids. Still, she refuses to give up having an A with OM and since OM has nothing going for himself- and absolutely nothing at stake- this A has the potential to go on for a very long time. Meanwhile, my W tells me how she would rather live alone with the kids- I'm no longer an option since OM has "opened her eyes to what she has been missing"- and if "Mr. Right" happens to walk into her life, great!

Of course, as part of her ideal situation, I am supposed to move out of the house, pay mucho child and spousal support and if I'm lucky, she'll let me see the kids on the weekends.

It's tough. I'm fighting to save our M and my W- in her own passive/aggressive way- is trying to bust our M. She really wants me to hate her enough so I file for D so she doesn't have to.

I don't know what it is going to take to ring my W's bell at this point. I have a sinking feeling that it's going to take A LOT. So right now I'm looking at S with her in the hopes that maybe if she experiences the costs associated with running two households, sharing the kids 50/50 along with all of the other negatives maybe she will reconsider wanting to work with me on our M. Plus, I just need space from her and her attitude right now.
Posted By: MrBond Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/24/09 11:34 AM
She's using the kids as an excuse. It comes down to the fact that she's afraid to leave. She's afraid to lose her life raft (you).

You have to cut off her support system by living your own life and show her you're happy without her. That the kids are happy without her.

She's in a very selfish period right now. You can't get yourself dragged into it. Showing her figures, facts, etc. isn't doing squat, so protect your and your children's interests.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/25/09 12:07 AM
Stuck is right, BJ. I think she will have to experience the school of hard knocks before it makes a believer out of her. It seems that she is way too deep into the fog and over in that "never-never land" for you to be able to reach.

If you can endure a S with her then do what you can, but if you make anything "easy" on her (still...trying to protect & help her), then you will never see the wife you once knew b/c she will continue to be this woman you can't bear to be around. Right now you are really ticked....and it took you a long time to get to this place...or so it seemed. I still believe you have to continue to put tough love into place to ever be able to have hope for a future.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/26/09 04:37 AM
Sandi/Stuck,

Thank you for the feedback. Well, here is what happened since my last post. After speaking to my W again about physically S this past Sunday, her response was to go to the courthouse Monday morning, talk to a paralegal and bring home paperwork to file for a D with the intent of having me booted from our house. After speaking to an attorney I had previously consulted with, he advised that the only chance I would have of challenging my W's attempt to force me out of the house would be if I filed for D first. I was very adverse to doing this, but after speaking with my family and a close friend, I was convinced by all that I needed to make a stand against my W and start defending/protecting myself. So this morning I filed for D from my W and she was served this afternoon.

My W went ballistic, particularly over comments I made in my complaint over her A with OM as well as her lack of effort in seeking employment comparable to what she had prior to her termination and the beginning of her A. After going to the courthouse and filing a response, she came back home and got back into the same routine she has had for the last 6 months. We talked and I explained to her that she had forced my hand- I cannot continue to under perform at work- putting my job at risk- as a result of her being a negative distraction here at the house. I had sought to negotiate a workable solution to physically S from her and she had refused. Of course, my W could not appreciate my point of view nor understand why I couldn't just deal with the fact that she doesn't want a MR with me, she won't forsake her A and I can continue to worry about my job and our financial situation by myself while supporting the family.

Then I got more of the same crap that I always do, about how soooo unhappy she is with me and our MR and how there is NO WAY she will ever give me a chance to reconcile with her. And how she does not believe that relationships in general should take work to maintain. (Amazing how she can say this since a lack of maintenance is what got her and I to where we are now in our MR. Boy is she in for a big surprise in her next R!)

I am very angry at my W for the way she has treated me and everyone else in the family with no respect or caring for anyone's feelings. I am tired of being spat on and treated like less than dirt. I don't know what it is going to take for my W to WAKE UP but I'm done being treated this way by her. I'm done! And here is more icing on the cake: My W just came in with D3 from having ice cream with her friends and the first words out of D3's mouth are "Mommy likes (OM name)!!" Said right in front of both of my sons.

I'm too pissed off right now to continue posting. I'll check in later. Any thoughts and/or feedback is welcome as always.
Posted By: Jman Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/26/09 05:26 AM
Hey BJ,
Wow. That is unbelievable. U did what u had to do and only u knew when u could not put up with it anymore. So Is she allowed to be at the house now? Also do u know what the reaponse was from her going down to the courthouse?

Man u r brave and the fact too that your youngest is mentioning the OM name is bull ----. It really does suck that it had come down to this but you are doing what's best for u and ur children. Kudos Bro. U got more guts than me.

Try to chill out if poss so you can think clearly for your next moves.

Take care
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/26/09 09:31 PM
I don't know what to advise, but she should not get away with talking to little D about OM and telling her that Mommy likes OM, etc. That is so unacceptable! Then....so is an A.

This woman will only continue to get worse, IMHO, and until "she" began to suffer from the from her own bad choices, then she is not going to slow down. I don't know of anything she has had to suffer personally! It has been her family that has been put through the ordeal of her unfaithfulness to the M.....not her! And now for a "mother" to be teaching her little girl the crap she is telling her.....and there's no telling what else she has been saying trying to get the D's approval about OM. If you can think of something to hold her feet to the fire where the child is concerned, I sure thinks she needs to be accountable for that terrible behavior of bad parenting.
Posted By: MrBond Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/26/09 10:25 PM
I would talk to a C about your D. She's using her to get at you which is extremely damaging to her. Your W's using her to get under your skin, but in the end your D is going to be messed up and think oh it's cool for mommy to have a H and a BF.

Screw that. Get your W away as quickly as possible. Do it very calmly so that it seems like you're taking care of business instead of reacting to her. When she goes off, don't say anything. You're done talking to her after all and she won't listen to anything you say anyway. Just look at her like a spoiled brat. A pitiful creature.

When you stop reacting to her and do your own thing, she's going to break. Once you are gone, she won't have any choice but to see what she's doing.

I would seriously look at getting primary custody too because she's going to fill their heads with all kinds of venom that will hurt them in the end.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/27/09 12:56 AM
Originally Posted By: Jman
Hey BJ,
Wow. That is unbelievable. U did what u had to do and only u knew when u could not put up with it anymore. So Is she allowed to be at the house now? Also do u know what the reaponse was from her going down to the courthouse?

Man u r brave and the fact too that your youngest is mentioning the OM name is bull ----. It really does suck that it had come down to this but you are doing what's best for u and ur children. Kudos Bro. U got more guts than me.

Try to chill out if poss so you can think clearly for your next moves.

Take care


Thanks Jman. Please don't let what I had to do get you discouraged with your sitch. I was forced to take a defensive posture with my W (file first for D) and only did so after discussion with members of my family and a reputable attorney.

Right now we have some preliminary hearings and other mandatory meetings set for next month at the courthouse.
I'll keep you posted as things develop.

Looking back right now, I don't know what else I could have done up to this point. It took the majority of my time and strength to get a handle on my emotions, let go of the (majority) of the anger/resentment/judgmentalism while carrying 95% of the household burdens and keeping my head above water at work. Perhaps I could have developed and implemented firm boundaries with my W sooner rather than wait until recently.

I will be OK. Unlike my W, I've had to deal with some bad things in my life before, so I'm familiar with the path to survival. Like my past life experiences, this sitch will forge me into a much better and stronger man than ever before. It does suck, but I'll take my pain upfront any day over having to pay the piper later, like my W.

Thanks again and I'll check in on your sitch soon.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/27/09 01:21 AM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
I don't know what to advise, but she should not get away with talking to little D about OM and telling her that Mommy likes OM, etc. That is so unacceptable! Then....so is an A.


Well it gets better. After I stopped my post last night, my D3 announced loudly "Mommy LOVES (OM name)!" in front of my two sons and my W. It may not have been the most responsible thing to do, but I challenged my W to explain to the family what D3 meant by that. Naturally, my W declined. Later, I confronted my W alone and told her that this was the SECOND time that D3 had made comments using OM's name and that it was COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE. Unbelievably, my W started telling me that she did not tell D3 anything- D3 must have overheard my W talking to her friends about OM. Later, my W provided an alternate explanation, stating that D3 likely meant to say the name of one of her classmates and NOT OM's name. Does that excuse sound familiar? It was the same excuse she used before a couple months ago when D3 said "Daddy (OM's name)!", only D3's "confusion" was related to another classmate's name! Incredible!

Quote:
This woman will only continue to get worse, IMHO, and until "she" began to suffer from the from her own bad choices, then she is not going to slow down. I don't know of anything she has had to suffer personally! It has been her family that has been put through the ordeal of her unfaithfulness to the M.....not her! And now for a "mother" to be teaching her little girl the crap she is telling her.....and there's no telling what else she has been saying trying to get the D's approval about OM. If you can think of something to hold her feet to the fire where the child is concerned, I sure thinks she needs to be accountable for that terrible behavior of bad parenting.


That she may continue to get worse is my concern as well. My W still has not accepted ANY accountability for ANYTHING. The closest thing she has come to an apology is when I was telling my MIL that she (my MIL) did not know what my W had done to me and my W stating "I just want to be happy". I told my W afterwards that I was not aware of any "plan for happiness" that called for a W to eviscerate her H emotionally/psychologically, hurt her kids and break up her family. No response from W of course.

My W can't continue doing what she is doing indefinitely and not suffer some consequences. Who knows when that will be, but at the rate she is going, she may have to suffer the consequences alone. But that is her problem. I just have to take care of my kids and myself for now.

Thanks for your continued support and interest in my sitch Sandi. I do believe in miracles- not sure if there will be one in my sitch- but one can always hope.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/27/09 01:41 AM
Originally Posted By: stuck808
I would talk to a C about your D. She's using her to get at you which is extremely damaging to her. Your W's using her to get under your skin, but in the end your D is going to be messed up and think oh it's cool for mommy to have a H and a BF.


Stuck,

I don't know what the hell is going on with my D3, it may be that she IS just parroting things my W is saying around her. Even still, my W shouldn't be saying these things around D3. I will be bringing this issue up with my C for sure.

Quote:
Screw that. Get your W away as quickly as possible. Do it very calmly so that it seems like you're taking care of business instead of reacting to her. When she goes off, don't say anything. You're done talking to her after all and she won't listen to anything you say anyway. Just look at her like a spoiled brat. A pitiful creature.

When you stop reacting to her and do your own thing, she's going to break. Once you are gone, she won't have any choice but to see what she's doing.

I would seriously look at getting primary custody too because she's going to fill their heads with all kinds of venom that will hurt them in the end.


I've got a tough battle ahead regarding custody of the kids. Before my W lost her mind and got mixed up in her EA, she was an outstanding mother, A+. Right now, aside from the EA, inappropriate comments around D3 and associated weird behavior, my W is still about a C+ mom which compared to other women in the PTA is probably more like a B+. My W and I are like Ozzie and Harriet, only on steriods.

My W does have a competitive advantage over me as the primary caregiver of the kids. She will fight big time to establish herself as the primary caregiver of the kids. She is using the kids as emotional crutches right now, they are key to her not winding up alone. Realistically, I can probably expect 50% custody with my W as the primary caregiver. My odds of keeping the family home are better, but I will have to ultimately buy my W out if the D becomes final.

With the kids primarily living with her, it will surely take a lot of the "sting" being away from me. But, she will still have to share them with me 50% of the time which means she will be alone 50% of the time. Time will only tell what she'll think about that arrangement. Of course, she will still have the R with OM who is coaching her and providing her with R advice along with lots of affection, so that should also minimize things for her, at least in the short term.
Posted By: dday101798 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/27/09 03:30 PM
Hi BJ, been kind of just watching your situation unfold.

First off, as hard as I know it was to do, I applaud you for having the strength to protect your children by filing first. I think if I had, my outcome would have been much different. (D'd with joint custody where XW is custodial parent)

Secondly, you may very well end up as the custodial parent if your retain the family's prmary residence. Judges now a days want to see the minamilist impact on the kids as possible.

Ultimately the question is how far are you willing to take the custody issue? I got within days of appearing for mediation with them, then having them go to court the following week, and I just couldn't do it. I just couldn't put them through that.

Now, here's what I've learned post tense.

My XW, much like your W had my kids singing the praise of OM. She up and left within a week of me confirming the A and despite my requests carried on directly in front of them. This in time, a year now, is getting old with my kids as they are getting older and wiser.

In turn, it's unfortunate that my XW now is begining to see the err of her ways. Of course now the excuse is we're divorced because I hurried it along and she wanted to drag it out, "to think".

So, learning from how mine sitch turned out, heed the last statement and maybe drag it along for a bit. Where will your W get financing to combat this? I would certainly tell her to leave the house immediately in light of the kids comments about OM. You could also file a motion for temporary and emergency custody while the D ensues and establish visitation restrictions, acutally I highly recommend it, and am surprised your attorney hasn't if infidelity is part of the complaint.

Those two combined may just be enough to give her a dose of what the reality of things will be post D.

So, that's just some ideas.

Take care and stay strong.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/27/09 04:48 PM
dday,

Thank you for the kind words and advice. Regarding the issue of custody, like you I am very protective of my kids and would be very adverse to putting them through any court hearings and/or mediation. I will just have to find other means to try to reach consensus with my W on this issue.

I'm with you regarding dragging things out with the D- that is precisely what I plan to do. At this point, I would like physical S from my W, but I don't know if filing for temporary/emergency custody is the way to go- just yet at least. I think I will let my filing for D followed by the financial disclosure forms I need to complete for all to review marinate for awhile with my W. I think my W needs a lot of time to fully evaluate what a rotten H and life she thinks she has as we march forward to a D she thinks she wants.

Thanks again for the feedback. If there is anyone else out there watching my sitch unfold that would like to offer either tactical, creative and/or practical advice I am all eyes and ears!
Posted By: dday101798 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/27/09 05:24 PM
You're welcome BJ.

I'm only speaking from my experience on the temp custody because that was the very first thing my XW did upon filing for D. She almost got away from it because she had it served to out marital residence which I no longer lived at. Found out about it the day before the hearing was to take place. If it went through, I would have been granted only 'supervised' visitation seeing the lever of "cruel and unusual punishment" dealt upon my adultress W. If that would have went through, god only knows how bad off I'd be today. And since your W is in a financial bind, by filing so on her behalf, she can claim herself primary caretaker (as she already hs, no?), and guess what, she needs the residence and you're out.

Food for thought, you fired the first shot, it can get nasty from here.

dday
Posted By: WalkingMan Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/28/09 06:37 PM
BJ,

I think you have done the right thing in your filing. My divorce is final today and I have to say, like dday that if given more time, things would be different. This week she finally started dicussing the idea of leaving the door open after the divorce. The fact is for me though, that now I need time before I can even consider to the idea.

IN my state, we have a two month waiting period after the filing.
Unless there's abuse, etc. I think this is just not enough time.

Separating physically was the best thing we could do, because it made her start to think. We came close, just not enough time.

Oh well! I'm single today!
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/28/09 10:26 PM
How are you doing today, BJ?
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/29/09 03:32 AM
Originally Posted By: dday101798

In turn, it's unfortunate that my XW now is begining to see the err of her ways. Of course now the excuse is we're divorced because I hurried it along and she wanted to drag it out, "to think".


Originally Posted By: Sgfan
BJ,
I think you have done the right thing in your filing. My divorce is final today and I have to say, like dday that if given more time, things would be different. This week she finally started dicussing the idea of leaving the door open after the divorce. The fact is for me though, that now I need time before I can even consider to the idea.

Separating physically was the best thing we could do, because it made her start to think. We came close, just not enough time.


Dday/SG:

Interesting that both of your WAW's reacted the way they did after the D was final. I am curious- what do you think made them react that way? Was it the trauma of the D experience that woke them up or something associated with realizing now how bad being D is? Was there any significant "awakening" - or at least a significant decrease in their sociopathic WAW behaviors before the D was final?

Right now I would describe my W's behavior as alternating between either being calmly belligerent and/or completely uncaring towards me while smiling and acting happy around our kids and others. As one family friend put it, you would never know that my W and I are having marital problems given the way she is acting in public.

My W told me the other night that there was a "slim" chance of reconciliation before I crashed her recent vacation and that I "completely blew any chance" of reconciliation once I filed for D. My response to that was "B.S.- why would you say that now after repeatedly making statements to me like 'I'm done, don't you get it?' or 'Our M is over, don't you get it?'" What is the point saying these things to me- to make me feel bad...or to make her feel good? Especially when she seems emotionally detached from me. BTW, she also commented on wanting us to physically S before I filed, however that was conditional on ME moving out of our house, not HER (the excuse being that "the kids need to be with their mother".)

Aside from giving more time for a physical S, was there anything else you could have said or done in the interim period that might have changed things between you and your W?
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/29/09 04:02 AM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
How are you doing today, BJ?



I'm hanging in there Sandi. (See above posts.) I'm still very unhappy that my W backed me into a corner where I felt I had to file for D first to defend myself. She knows my history (child of D myself), so she must know that it hurt me to do what I did, however she just doesn't give a damn right now.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/31/09 02:06 AM
Quote:
My W told me the other night that there was a "slim" chance of reconciliation before I crashed her recent vacation and that I "completely blew any chance" of reconciliation once I filed for D.


Good for you calling her hand on this B.S. She is simply finding any way she can to hit you below the belt. That is why I don't think it was not an "accident" that your D3 said that "Mommy likes OM". Sounded to me as if she had been coached.

Wish I could think of something new to tell you but right now I can't think of much positive. Your W is headed for a big fall, as you know....and I hope you will be able to deal with it when it happens. I think if you were to push her toward the OM that things would tumble down even quicker. I don't know if you can do that, but the sooner she sees that you don't want her any longer--and she turns to OM, the sooner she is going to start getting a taste of reality. There is no way OM is going to support her. He's been on his own too long and he doesn't want your W (or anybody else) except as a booty call. Right now your W thinks you are mad and she is doing things to spite you, but if she thought you were happy to be free of her and looking forward to being single, then she may get her attention directed in the right way. At least she would be surprised at you....and it would be a 180!
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/31/09 03:59 AM
Originally Posted By: sandi2

Wish I could think of something new to tell you but right now I can't think of much positive. Your W is headed for a big fall, as you know....and I hope you will be able to deal with it when it happens.


Sandi,

Well that makes two of us that can't think of much positive right now. But that is OK; it's still a comfort and a blessing to know you are keeping an eye on my sitch.

As for my W's eventual fall, you need not worry about me- I will deal with it one way or another. Whether I will still be around to catch my W when she does fall is another matter. Unfortunately, my W is foolishly stubborn and will likely struggle to maintain the R with OM when it does start to fail with the equivalent effort she puts forth to convince herself it's not worth working on her M with me.

Quote:
I think if you were to push her toward the OM that things would tumble down even quicker. I don't know if you can do that, but the sooner she sees that you don't want her any longer--and she turns to OM, the sooner she is going to start getting a taste of reality. There is no way OM is going to support her. He's been on his own too long and he doesn't want your W (or anybody else) except as a booty call. Right now your W thinks you are mad and she is doing things to spite you, but if she thought you were happy to be free of her and looking forward to being single, then she may get her attention directed in the right way. At least she would be surprised at you....and it would be a 180!


Funny you should mention this as I was thinking the same thing- again of course, since I tried leaving her at her parent's house to pursue her A with the OM (without success)during my little trip awhile ago to get my kids.

At this point I would like to push her out the door to OM for the reason you stated above. In fact, I've been thinking about telling her to go talk to OM about wiring her some money so she can move out to her own apartment (we can't afford it ourselves) because of course OM won't. What is frustrating right now in this respect are two things: 1) my W continues to hide behind/use our kids to try to turn things around so that physical S is MY problem- I'm the one who needs to move because "the kids have to stay with their mom", therefore "the kids need a place to live" and 2)My W now insists that this is not a "competition" between the OM and I for her affection, she just doesn't want to be with me. Not sure why this distinction is important to her in her WAW brain since she is apparently telling her friends at the same time that her "R" with OM is really loving and special. Is it because in reality she knows OM really can't "compete" with me? Is it because deep down she knows he is unreliable? Or is there some truth to what she is saying- is she just using OM as a "toy" and an emotional crutch to get away from me? In any event, that is where I am at right now with my W- making a 180 for sure.
Posted By: dday101798 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/31/09 04:31 PM
Originally Posted By: BigJohn
Interesting that both of your WAW's reacted the way they did after the D was final. I am curious- what do you think made them react that way? Was it the trauma of the D experience that woke them up or something associated with realizing now how bad being D is? Was there any significant "awakening" - or at least a significant decrease in their sociopathic WAW behaviors before the D was final?


For various reasons:

First and foremost, as I have just realized myself, in terms of the former relation, I am now the WAS, XW the LBS, the tables have turned.

Secondly, in conjunction with above, XW got what she thought she wanted. Never once listened when I told her to be careful what she asks for, she will get it and will not happy. Well, gosh be darned, here we are today and now that Xw is no longer married to her horrific XH anymore, I all the sudden don't look so bad after all.

Lastlty, and in conjunction with both the forementioned reasons, life for the former LBS starts to go on. This "isn't supposed to happen". We're to sit and be miserable and at the beckon call for our WAS. How dare we finally say enough is enough and move on? Be happy again? Explore the possibility that D is not the end of life? That was not supposed to happen. That was not in the master plan of the 'original WAS', and now, they're out of the driver's seat. Xw thought she ahd this whole thing planned out. And now, well, the plan is corrupt and XW doens't know what to do or where to go, the proverbial 'saftery net' is officially gone.

That said, you can not and should not be there to 'catch' your W. It's a fall she needs to take on her own.

EDIT- And I seriously stress you explore anyway, be it a temp custody order or not to secure your home. Her claims she is making right now that she NEEDS that house to care for the kids will get you booted once it hits court! I'm not joking.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/31/09 07:02 PM
Originally Posted By: dday101798
That was not in the master plan of the 'original WAS', and now, they're out of the driver's seat. Xw thought she ahd this whole thing planned out. And now, well, the plan is corrupt and XW doens't know what to do or where to go, the proverbial 'saftery net' is officially gone.


dday,

In my case, my W doesn't appear to really have "a plan" beyond getting out of her M with me other than to continue her A with OM. She has done no due diligence whatsoever about anything. She recently started grasping the concept of what 50% joint custody means for us and the kids and is really unhappy about it. I told her the rude surprises will continue to come, however she remains unconvinced that it is worth the "risk" and effort to work on our MR.

I don't recall your sitch- did your W have OM?

Quote:
That said, you can not and should not be there to 'catch' your W. It's a fall she needs to take on her own.


Agreed. I have a habit of being protective of my W which has bit me on the a$$ on more than one occasion in my sitch.

Quote:
EDIT- And I seriously stress you explore anyway, be it a temp custody order or not to secure your home. Her claims she is making right now that she NEEDS that house to care for the kids will get you booted once it hits court! I'm not joking.


I'll talk to my attorney about it.

Thanks for the feedback.
Posted By: dday101798 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/31/09 08:12 PM
BJ,

Ooooh, yes, XW did and does still have OM. She uprooted and left to move in with hime a week after I caught them. Despite all my requests that if she is going to be with him, fine, but not in front of the kids, she integrated him effective immediately. That was July 11 of last year. By Thanksgiving, they had "engaged" but have a "open relationship", ewww. Kicker is, I knew OM before I knew XW and the type of slime bucket he is, at least I do know she headed my advice and gets regular checkups, at least up until she was dropped from my insurance.

There were a few times from late summer until New Years that she would say she wasn't sure what she was doing, still loves me, wouldn't say anything (still doesnt) of how she feels for OM, and I never got the ILYBINILY load. Matter of fact, just recently she said she had called off the engagment sighting she didn't know what she wanted, [duh!]

But anyhow, things went awry after New Years, XW was enraged by a female friend of mine hanging around the house and automatically assumed as 'my girlfriend', quite comical, physically assaulted me in front of the kids, no I'm not a wuss, I won't touch her and post bomb I had lost some 45 pounds.

I had planned ahead as LRT and sent letters to her and her father whose name our house was in that I would leave 2/1/09. After some sweet talking I stayed until the D was filed 2/5 and I never saw my S12 on his birthday 2/14, thus I left to move with family. Probably my biggest mistake right there, but it was a losing battle in that house anyway.

Filed and order of protection against her, and her answer in February was finally filing for D. From there 'til June 9th when the D was final, it GOT UGLY, REALLY UGLY. XW claims the mudslinging was her L's ideas, I don't buy it. They tried to take all access away from my kids til their faces were purple. In the end, joint custody, she has residential, and I see them the a-typical every other weekend. At least I know has hit home with her as I remind her every chance I get what it feels like to be a 72 hour a month 'parent', and she does get emotional about it.

Of course, as said, blames me for the D in all regards, and STILL to this day sees nothing wrong with how she went about destroying our family..........

Until, I turned the tables on her and checked out of this toxic relationship. She made the mess, she can clean it up, then if there's any point, we can talk.

Your W sounds of the same demeanor. My pleasure to help you avoid any mistakes I made, and who knows, maybe spare you the big D? smile
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/31/09 09:42 PM
Dday,

Thanks for the clarification and yes, I get the feeling that my W is a lot like you XW in several regards. I am still amazed that despite the way your W treated you during the entire sitch- while refusing to drop the OM- she is now wishy-washy about her D decision.

As you may have noticed in my recent post back to Sandi, my thinking is that I would like to accelerate pushing my W into relying on OM for more that sunshine in her ear, ideally get her to ask him for some $$$ to help finance an apartment of her own. Problem is, she doesn't want to rock the boat with OM and burst the fantasy bubble. I think she knows deep down he is not reliable. So right now she is hiding behind our kids trying to make everything MY problem to worry about.

So any ideas on implementing "tough love" techniques with my W with the purpose of also putting strain on my W's A would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks again.
Posted By: dday101798 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/01/09 12:54 AM
Simple,

The pattened, act as if. Look like you're done, you're out, show her no interest, let her think that your fine with everything, "putt along with OM if he's so great, my life will go on without you" type attitude.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/01/09 01:22 AM
Quote:
My W now insists that this is not a "competition" between the OM and I for her affection, she just doesn't want to be with me.


I feel that this statement backs up what I said before. This woman is in deeper fantasy that I originally realized b/c she thinks both men are competing for her attention! How arrogant is that? Must make her feel better to think that, but I feel that if you were to suddenly do a 180 and tell her that you've changed you mind about the entire situation (after a lot of thought) and decided that she was absolutely right and that she should be with OM and she should make plans to move in with him ASAP. I know you said she was not going to leave the state with your kids, but you could try to avoid that and see how far things would go. Even if she thought you were giving in and allowing her to take the kids, you know that OM would never agree for her and her children to move in with him. That would scare him to death. She needs to see that OM doesn't give a donkey's tail flip about her kids. (I know....you couldn't take the risk....but if you could, she would find out the truth in a hurry.)

Quote:
Not sure why this distinction is important to her in her WAW brain since she is apparently telling her friends at the same time that her "R" with OM is really loving and special. Is it because in reality she knows OM really can't "compete" with me? Is it because deep down she knows he is unreliable? Or is there some truth to what she is saying- is she just using OM as a "toy" and an emotional crutch to get away from me?


No, not at all. I know I keep saying this about the fantasy, but I don't think you realize how strong that can be for a WAW. It is as much of the drug, I think, as the OM. After all, you know that she could not possibly love OM, but she has created the illusion of being in love. She has to keep feeding that illusion in order for it to stay alive for her. That is one reason she talks it up to friends, etc. The more she talks about it, the more she can convince herself. Until you have been in those shoes, you can't understand how powerful these emotions are and how captive it can make you.

I can understand about the finances and where the kids are concerned. She has you over a barrell there. That is why I wonder about calling her bluff, but again, I know you wouldn't want to do that with your kids at stake. Anyway, wouldn't you have to pay child support only....or would you have to pay her also? B/c I don't know many women who can live on child support only. It is just for the kids and usually takes more for the wife. Maybe it is different in your state...I don't know. It is disgusting how she is "using" her own children for her benefit. I hope you will hold her feet to the fire about that. This is why it is so much worse when children are involved.....it is much more complicated and so much of it turns ugly when things get to this stage.

Well, I'm not telling you anything you don't know or I haven't already said before, but I'm still around if you need to vent.
Take care of yourself.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/01/09 01:24 AM
Oh, but let me clearify something about telling her that you agree that she should be with OM......the most important part is that you let her know that it is b/c you basically want to be single again! If she thought that you would be pinning away for her, then she would have her cake and eat it too.
Posted By: dday101798 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/01/09 01:31 AM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Oh, but let me clearify something about telling her that you agree that she should be with OM......the most important part is that you let her know that it is b/c you basically want to be single again! If she thought that you would be pinning away for her, then she would have her cake and eat it too.




Huh, I guess for once I finally know what I'm talking about on this?
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/01/09 04:06 AM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
No, not at all. I know I keep saying this about the fantasy, but I don't think you realize how strong that can be for a WAW. It is as much of the drug, I think, as the OM. After all, you know that she could not possibly love OM, but she has created the illusion of being in love. She has to keep feeding that illusion in order for it to stay alive for her. That is one reason she talks it up to friends, etc. The more she talks about it, the more she can convince herself. Until you have been in those shoes, you can't understand how powerful these emotions are and how captive it can make you.


Sandi,

The psychology of the WAW never ceases to amaze me. It is so hard for me to relate to this, not only because I'm a man but because I am a mentally disciplined one at that. I can't tell you enough how much I appreciate your insight.

You know, what is interesting is that my W apparently confessed to my MIL that she didn't think OM was particularly handsome, that his looks had taken a turn for the worse since she last saw him almost 20 years ago. I thought that little bit of honesty with my MIL was interesting- I don't know if she was as honest with her girlfriends or not or if there is any relevance to any of this- I know how looks aren't nearly as important to woman as they are to men. Then again, my MIL and all of my SILs think OM is ugly anyway, so maybe this is just my W relenting to calling a spade a spade.

In any event, speaking of "illusions", does this also require her to keep feeding herself negative illusions of me to prop up the positive illusions of the OM? Are the two illusions dependent upon one another or separate?


Quote:
Anyway, wouldn't you have to pay child support only....or would you have to pay her also? B/c I don't know many women who can live on child support only.


According to my L, I will have to pay modest child support with 50% custody. However regarding alimony, I don't anticipate having to pay much if any since my W has a higher earning potential than I currently do (W is a union-paid RN) when she works full time. Yes, according to my L, my W is in for another rude surprise regarding alimony. More on that later.

Quote:
It is disgusting how she is "using" her own children for her benefit. I hope you will hold her feet to the fire about that. This is why it is so much worse when children are involved.....it is much more complicated and so much of it turns ugly when things get to this stage.


I will hold her accountable for the impact her actions are having on the kids, you can count on it.

Thanks Sandi. Talk to you soon.
Posted By: dday101798 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/01/09 12:46 PM
You know, I don't understand my XW's choice in OM either. They apparently have some past history between them because good lord I don't know what she sees in him. Other than being the patented complete opposite of me.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/01/09 08:47 PM
Dday,

I don't know about your XW's OM, but my W's OM is fat, sleazy, ugly and a complete dufus. He is REALLY the complete opposite of me- it's amazing. It doesn't make any sense the way these WAWs "affair down" like they do. I guess it is their way of rebelling? If not, then why the hell did our wives marry us (the clear and better choice over the OM) in the first place? Good grief!
Posted By: dday101798 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/02/09 02:08 PM
BJ,

Someone once explained the whole thing to me, I'll have to find it sometime.

Agreed exact opposite. OM does nothing, I did everything. OM is half bald, I pride my hair. OM dresses like a slob (even in court), I'm business casual everyday. OM expects to be catered to and picked up after, I find it hard to sit down and relax at times. OM sits around and watches TV all day and night, I'm lucky to log more than 5 hours in a week of TV. The list could go on and on....
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/02/09 05:37 PM
Originally Posted By: dday101798
BJ,

Someone once explained the whole thing to me, I'll have to find it sometime.

Agreed exact opposite. OM does nothing, I did everything. OM is half bald, I pride my hair. OM dresses like a slob (even in court), I'm business casual everyday. OM expects to be catered to and picked up after, I find it hard to sit down and relax at times. OM sits around and watches TV all day and night, I'm lucky to log more than 5 hours in a week of TV. The list could go on and on....


Dday,

Yeah I think my W's OM had some of those hair plugs put in up front but I can't be 100% sure from the pics I've seen of him. Borderline illiterate from what I can gather, a real dope. Oh but he has an amusing personality. Give me a break. Put me in a clown suit with hair plugs and I'll get the same results if not better. If Elmer Fudd could have a baby with Rain Man, the end result would be my W's OM. Then there is me, rotten H, who is educated, successful, faithful to my W and kids and (with a little work on my tan) could give those Men's Health guys a serious run for their money. Met three of my W's girlfriends from high school two weeks ago, they were checking me out and was definitely getting that approval vibe from them. Got a real good vibe from one in particular. All this in front of my W of course who liked the favorable impression ("Boy isn't she smart/lucky/whatever to have a guy like that") but didn't have the nerve to tell them "yeah that's my H and guess what I really want to $h*tcan his a$$ for dufus".

It just pisses me off to no end. Yeah, when you find that info on the psychology on W's attraction of OM opposite of H let me know.
Posted By: dday101798 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/02/09 05:43 PM
General rationalization would just say because he's out of the norm?
Posted By: MrBond Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/02/09 06:28 PM
Simple. He fulfills an emotional need that she feels she hasn't or can't get from you. In this case, he's not judgmental. She has no REAL ties to him so it's an emotional freedom for her.

Meanwhile, because you were protecting your family by showing her how foolish she was, it made her pursue the fantasy even more.

It's like a kid in a candy store. If you tell the kid they can't have something, they're going to want it more even though they know it's going to rot their teeth. And no matter how many times they say they hate their parents for not giving them the candy, they don't leave the parents.

It's a simple analogy but it seems that's how your W is. The more you tell her she can't do something, the louder her tantrums become. That's why it's important for you to remain the adult and protect your assets while she goes off and burns out her fantasy.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/03/09 01:02 AM
Stuck,

I think Dday and I get the emotional needs part of the equation, it's the physical appearance aspect of the OM that we were ranting about. Speaking re: my sitch, my W must have beer goggles an inch think to think her OM is hot stuff. Not that it really matters that much anyway- I'd be just as hurt if OM was handsome- it's just that it adds another dimension to my W's WAW craziness. crazy

Oh, and I do plead guilty to being judgmental in my last post. I'm trying to get away from that for sure, but Dday got me riled and I just had to make an exception talking about skankster OM. Thanks Dday!smile
Posted By: MrBond Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/03/09 01:25 AM
My W's OM is bald, twice her age and ready for retirement. I guess he'd be good looking if you were a grandmother!

I had to figure out what the hell was going on in my sitch when she kept saying he was much more better looking than me. So that's when I realized she was looking at it through an emotional lens.

I'm prayin' for you BJ. Maybe you should splash some holy water on your W to get that evil spirit living in her to leave. LOL.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/03/09 02:06 AM
Hey.....look at my guy Stuck! Now he has been to the WAW School of Hard Knocks--and he learned! Thankfully he is passing it forward to others and is being a big help here on the board.

You men will learn but it is hard for you b/c we women are designed so differently. You can't think of us in the same terms as with men. That is where people get into their problems in M a lot of times.....forgetting their S does not "think" like they do. Anyway, as I said before, when it is a case of what I think of as "true WAW", it hardly ever has much to do with OM's looks. I'm not sure about personal success, etc., but I do know it is more on how OM makes the WAW feel. Stuck summed it up very well in his description.

Quote:
In any event, speaking of "illusions", does this also require her to keep feeding herself negative illusions of me to prop up the positive illusions of the OM? Are the two illusions dependent upon one another or separate?


Oh yes! Very much so. If she were to open her eyes to see you the way you really are, then there is a good probability that OM would not look near so good to her and then she would have to face some other realities she is running from...and then her fantasy castle would begin to crumble and soon her entire dream world would collaspe. Naturally she is going to strive to make the LBH be the "bad guy" in every situation b/c she must be justified to leave H and have approval of others to go to OM. The more she trashes her H to her friends/relatives, the more H will appear to be rotten to the core and apparently had everyone fooled. Some people think, "Well, you never know what goes on behind closed doors." Obviously not everyone will believe that, but some will b/c they "want" to. Gives some folks something to talk about.

Listen, I realize how sick this all sounds to you men. How do you think I feel knowing "I" was that woman? I had/have one of the nicest men for a H that ever walked this planet and yet I was on my way of nearly convincing my mother that he was not the man he pretended to be and was not a good H to me. I needed for her to approve of me turning to OM and I knew she would never hear of it unless she turned against my H. Now.....here's the kicker. I don't think I allowed myself to realize what I was doing at the time I was doing it. Maybe that is a nice way of saying I would not "admit" to myself what I was doing! When I look back...it is hard to know b/c my mind was in so much fog. I mean the way I was trashing my H to my mother, and all the fault finding I was feeding my own mind --in order to find OM more appealing. Yes, I had to put my H down in every way I could think of--so that OM would be the "answer" to all my problems and bring me happiness. Think about it....how or why would a wife leave a wonderful man who everyone loves and thinks she is lucky to have? BJ, you were talking about those women being attracted to you, etc., and you couldn't understand why your wife can't see that and know you are the better man. The sad fact is.....she does know (subconsciously) but she has it burried deep and doesn't want to dig it up. If she does that, then she has to say good-bye to her drug of choice. She is hooked on that drug and doesn't want to give it up and will FIGHT to keep getting it. Just as we can't understand why a drug addict would do some things he does, it is the same for a WAW. It makes no sense whatsoever! I have been there and it still makes no sense. All I know that in my own case, I was so unhappy for so many years and felt so neglected that I was not only vulnerable to what happen, I was an A waiting to happen! Women get desparate for happiness--and romancejust as men get desparate for sex! That is how females are wired. Men go through that just long enough to court a woman and get her wedded and then he is through! He won the prize and now life continues, but the woman wants that romantic courtship to continue! So many women are longing for romance in their lives that that is why many are depressed and unhappy. "Most" men do not realize that romance to a woman is like sunshine to a flower. So, it goes back to something the OM says to feed the soul of that woman and it makes her glow inside. He may look like a frog, but in her mind.....she will see him as her prince! She thinks he has come to save the day and will sweep her away and they will live happily ever after. I know....it sounds like a stupid fairytale, but that is exactly what the WAW wants! She wants a fairytale. Her mind is in the clouds and you can't reason with her. She wouldn't recognize logic if it met her on the street and said, "howdy".

I say so much of the same stuff over & over but I don't know how to word it so that most men can "understand" what a WAW is thinking or going through. It took me a long, long time to get where I was as a WAW. I think that women feel that they have "missed" something or feel denied...maybe....I don't really know, but it is like they have a dream of being romanced and courted by the man they love and in their minds..the M is over b/c there is no feelings of being in love any longer. She may try to satisy that longing by reading romance novels and watching love stories, etc.,but if she continues along that path and doesn't find some type of peace & happiness in her life, then I believe she sets herself up for falling for some guy's line and believing every line of BS he feeds her. Now, I can't speak for every single woman out there b/c maybe there are particular circumstances in some M's, but I can tell you about "me" and from what I've read, it is pretty much the common symptom of WAW's.

I have been amazed at how many women I see in the doctor's waiting room sitting therre reading romance novels. Almost in every case, she is about middle age or even younger and most of the time she is over weight (another sign of unhappiness or unrest)and some will even have the H sitting beside her and he looks as if he hasn't a clue of what is going on. I want to get him and shake him and tell him he better wake up and start romancing his wife and telling her she is the hottest thing on earth and anything else that makes her feel special.....before she stops feeling anything for him. B/c after he wakes up to what he's done through neglect, and he is ready to go to work on the M.......she will be done.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/03/09 04:30 AM
Originally Posted By: stuck808
My W's OM is bald, twice her age and ready for retirement. I guess he'd be good looking if you were a grandmother!

I had to figure out what the hell was going on in my sitch when she kept saying he was much more better looking than me. So that's when I realized she was looking at it through an emotional lens.

I'm prayin' for you BJ. Maybe you should splash some holy water on your W to get that evil spirit living in her to leave. LOL.


Stuck,

W in love with grandpa OM- now that really is a crisis. Definitely a sense of urgency in trying to figure that one out. But given the age difference, I can see why it might be easier to come to the conclusion regarding the emotional aspect of the R.

Appreciate the feedback and prayers. I need all the divine intervention I can get for my sitch. I was actually considering looking into some voodoo magic against OM. I think if I could get my hands on a Chucky doll, dye the hair blonde and rip out some hair in the front it would be a good representation of OM. Get a couple of mom's old knitting needles, voodoo priestess for the evil spells and I'm good to go. laugh

Talk to you later.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/03/09 05:41 AM
Quote:
You men will learn but it is hard for you b/c we women are designed so differently. You can't think of us in the same terms as with men. That is where people get into their problems in M a lot of times.....forgetting their S does not "think" like they do. Anyway, as I said before, when it is a case of what I think of as "true WAW", it hardly ever has much to do with OM's looks. I'm not sure about personal success, etc., but I do know it is more on how OM makes the WAW feel.


We know better Sandi, at least I do. Still, it's hard to reconcile as a man because for us men "feelings", while important, don't play such a dominant role in our Rs like they do with women. After experiencing what I am currently going through with my W, I can't help but feel that the huge role "feelings" play in a woman's psyche are in many ways an achilles heel of sorts. It remains disturbing to me how my W's "feelings" can completely overwhelm logical and rational thinking. I just can't relate to it. Of course, I haven't experienced either MLC or an EA- I hope I never do- but maybe if I did I would understand better. I can only imagine that if I was thinking like my W is right now (basing my thoughts and actions on "feelings") I'd probably feel like I was losing my mind.

Quote:
If she were to open her eyes to see you the way you really are, then there is a good probability that OM would not look near so good to her and then she would have to face some other realities she is running from...and then her fantasy castle would begin to crumble and soon her entire dream world would collaspe. Naturally she is going to strive to make the LBH be the "bad guy" in every situation b/c she must be justified to leave H and have approval of others to go to OM.


I know that dropping the rope and filing for D was what I needed to do at this point in my sitch. And, I need to continue to detach as well. I just wish I knew what it was going to take in order for her to really "open her eyes" regarding me and our MR! My W is so damn stubborn...and she hates it when I'm right. Just don't know what else to do right now beyond making the realities of an impending D look really bad.

Quote:
The more she trashes her H to her friends/relatives, the more H will appear to be rotten to the core and apparently had everyone fooled. Some people think, "Well, you never know what goes on behind closed doors." Obviously not everyone will believe that, but some will b/c they "want" to. Gives some folks something to talk about.


You are right, some people will buy into her B.S. Fortunately my MIL and FIL and several others in her family aren't now and probably won't. In fact my MIL & FIL hit a rough patch and almost split up about 10 years ago but didn't- now they are telling my W they are so glad they got through it.

Quote:
BJ, you were talking about those women being attracted to you, etc., and you couldn't understand why your wife can't see that and know you are the better man. The sad fact is.....she does know (subconsciously) but she has it burried deep and doesn't want to dig it up. If she does that, then she has to say good-bye to her drug of choice. She is hooked on that drug and doesn't want to give it up and will FIGHT to keep getting it.


It's going on 7 full months now for my W's A and that is precisely her attitude: I WILL NOT GIVE UP MY A WITH OM! And it was her attitude a couple weeks ago when I crashed her out of state vacation- crying when she first saw me because I was "ruining everything". It is truly MADDENING!

Quote:
"Most" men do not realize that romance to a woman is like sunshine to a flower.

Quote:
She thinks he has come to save the day and will sweep her away and they will live happily ever after. I know....it sounds like a stupid fairytale, but that is exactly what the WAW wants! She wants a fairytale.

Quote:
I think that women feel that they have "missed" something or feel denied...maybe....I don't really know, but it is like they have a dream of being romanced and courted by the man they love and in their minds..the M is over b/c there is no feelings of being in love any longer.


This is the kind of poignant stuff that got my attention and made me want to take the approach I did with my W in the first place. I just wish there was a way I or someone could reach my W to let her know Big John gets it! And that I can and will give her what she wants and needs.

Quote:
She may try to satisy that longing by reading romance novels and watching love stories, etc.,but if she continues along that path and doesn't find some type of peace & happiness in her life, then I believe she sets herself up for falling for some guy's line and believing every line of BS he feeds her.


My W did/does both. These were two big indicators right in front of my face that I didn't recognize. And what you say about believing every line of some guy's BS- that is definitely what I fear for my W and her future should she chose go forward with the D.

Thanks Sandi for another great post.
Posted By: Good_guy Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/03/09 06:55 PM
[/quote] This is the kind of poignant stuff that got my attention and made me want to take the approach I did with my W in the first place. I just wish there was a way I or someone could reach my W to let her know Big John gets it! And that I can and will give her what she wants and needs.
[/quote]


John - in the same boat as well. I know what I've done wrong. I've told her I did wrong and would be better. I want to "romance" her again, to show her that I mean it. But, that's not what she needs. She needs time and space. She needs me not to chase her. I want to buy her flowers and end up ignoring her text messages. Seems like I'm doing all the wrong things - but based on what I have read from Sandy and others here, it's what I need to do. I need to keep coming back here to remind me of that. It's hard. Her BF is unemployed, in a marraige that is dead, he sits around all day at home texting my W 40 times a day. Still don't see what is there - but there must be something. I know this guy too and he is actively pursing her - she doesn't see that; just the attention he is paying her.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/04/09 01:54 AM
Quote:
I just wish I knew what it was going to take in order for her to really "open her eyes" regarding me and our MR!


I think you know in your heart that it is going to take a really hard knock of reality to hit your W right between her eyes. She has it as bad as any woman I have read about and I doubt anything short of her practically living on the streets are going to open her eyes. I think she could walk in on the OM having sex with three OW and he could lie his way out of it b/c she "wants" so badly to believe in her dream.

One thing in common that I've noticed in the posts that LBH's write is wanting to know what it will take to wake their W up. Here's the thing.....as long as the H waits around looking & hoping something is going to happen that will wake up his W or bring her to her senses.....I think he is setting himself up for a lot of intense pain. When you can learn to move on with your life and accept the fact that she has chosen the path she has--(doesn't mean you like it)-- and there's nothing you can do about it unless she decides to change her mind.....that is the time when you will start to have peace....and not before. So you are bringing a lot of pain on yourself by continually wondering what it is going to take for her. I know that the acceptance is a mental attitude and you can pretend all day long, but unless it is "real" then it doesn't work. I truly hope you can reach that place BJ.

I want to remind you men who read this that it took a long....long time for your W to reach this place of insanity! I wonder if some of you forget that. She may have dealth with a lot of cr@p for many years before her heart went cold. Some men say (rather self-righteously, I might add) that they would NEVER do what their WAW has done to them. Remember....men & women handle things differently. If we "think" differently, why would you expect us to handle things the same way? Just like BJ pointed out about "feelings" not being the primary factor (or however he said that) and it was hard to understand the female mind with so much being all about feelings. Let me say this.....EVERYTHING...EVERYTHING for a woman--is about feelings! She may "endure" for a long time--but don't confuse enduring with a lack of feelings. Even the WAW may say she doesn't have "feelings" for her LBH...but she does have them, it's just that they have changed. But again, that is the difference. I can't imagine what's in it for a man if there are no feelings. I think that some men in history began this thing about females being illogical b/c of all their emotions. shocked Doesn't mean we don't have a brain in our head, but I'm sure we appear to be rather illogical compared to how a man operates. Anyway....most WAW's not only act illogical when involved in an A, but they feel as if they are losing their mind at times. Yes, BJ, I felt that I was having a nervous breakdown when I wasn't engulfed with the dizziness of my fantasy and that is why I believe a lot of women won't think about what is truly happening around them b/c they are feeling like they are losing their minds. Now, I hope that anyone reading this will realize that I am not speaking of women who have a real justified reason for leaving a H, but am talking about WAW's in an A.

One more thing I wanted to point out while I'm at it....and that is those of you who think they would romance their W all the time if only you had a second chance. I know you think you would, but right now...you see this as the "war" to win. But, after you had the "victory" and she was back home and things had gotten back on track again...you would return to the same old routine. At least that is MHO and I think most women of any age would think the same thing. You mean well--and to have improved yourself and not turn back on those improvements would be fantastic... but to romance a woman ALL THE TIME??? Hummmm, I would like to see that done in real life! So, maybe you can see why your W would doubt your good intentions. I keep going back to the fact of how long she may have gone unhappy and you didn't even notice. I'm not talking about Big John's stitch...but LBH's in general. When she feels like her very soul has dried up and she'll never have the excitement with a man like she did with you in the beginning of your R......she thinks that life is over for her as a young, sexually attractive female and she must simply "settle" for what she has around her. I understand how this is probably making you men fuss, but try to bear with me to understand her. She has a longing in her heart and is VULNERABLE and I wonder if men forget that. Some H's are so angry at the W that they forget she doesn't think and feel like he does!! She is different and no matter how many times science points that fact out --there will be some who won't listen. (Not you, BJ...but some.) By the time she reaches the WAW stage, she is in a dangerous frame of mind. This has been building for a looooong time! Okay, I realize I'm repeating myself. But when I saw the other man who posted, it made me remember that so many read these posts and I guess I wanted to bring that point home again.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/04/09 01:59 AM
Quote:
I just wish I knew what it was going to take in order for her to really "open her eyes" regarding me and our MR!


I think you know in your heart that it is going to take a really hard knock of reality to hit your W right between her eyes. She has it as bad as any woman I have read about and I doubt anything short of her practically living on the streets are going to open her eyes. I think she could walk in on the OM having sex with three OW and he could lie his way out of it b/c she "wants" so badly to believe in her dream.

One thing in common that I've noticed in the posts that LBH's write is wanting to know what it will take to wake their W up. Here's the thing.....as long as the H waits around looking & hoping something is going to happen that will wake up his W or bring her to her senses.....I think he is setting himself up for a lot of intense pain. When you can learn to move on with your life and accept the fact that she has chosen the path she has--(doesn't mean you like it)-- and there's nothing you can do about it unless she decides to change her mind.....that is the time when you will start to have peace....and not before. So you are bringing a lot of pain on yourself by continually wondering what it is going to take for her. I know that the acceptance is a mental attitude and you can pretend all day long, but unless it is "real" then it doesn't work. I truly hope you can reach that place BJ.

I want to remind you men who read this that it took a long....long time for your W to reach this place of insanity! I wonder if some of you forget that. She may have dealth with a lot of cr@p for many years before her heart went cold. Some men say (rather self-righteously, I might add) that they would NEVER do what their WAW has done to them. Remember....men & women handle things differently. If we "think" differently, why would you expect us to handle things the same way? Just like BJ pointed out about "feelings" not being the primary factor (or however he said that) and it was hard to understand the female mind with so much being all about feelings. Let me say this.....EVERYTHING...EVERYTHING for a woman--is about feelings! She may "endure" for a long time--but don't confuse enduring with a lack of feelings. Even the WAW may say she doesn't have "feelings" for her LBH...but she does have them, it's just that they have changed. But again, that is the difference. I can't imagine what's in it for a man if there are no feelings. I think that some men in history began this thing about females being illogical b/c of all their emotions. shocked Doesn't mean we don't have a brain in our head, but I'm sure we appear to be rather illogical compared to how a man operates. Anyway....most WAW's not only act illogical when involved in an A, but they feel as if they are losing their mind at times. Yes, BJ, I felt that I was having a nervous breakdown when I wasn't engulfed with the dizziness of my fantasy and that is why I believe a lot of women won't think about what is truly happening around them b/c they are feeling like they are losing their minds. Now, I hope that anyone reading this will realize that I am not speaking of women who have a real justified reason for leaving a H, but am talking about WAW's in an A.

One more thing I wanted to point out while I'm at it....and that is those of you who think they would romance their W all the time if only you had a second chance. I know you think you would, but right now...you see this as the "war" to win. But, after you had the "victory" and she was back home and things had gotten back on track again...you would return to the same old routine. At least that is MHO and I think most women of any age would think the same thing. You mean well--and to have improved yourself and not turn back on those improvements would be fantastic... but to romance a woman ALL THE TIME??? Hummmm, I would like to see that done in real life! So, maybe you can see why your W would doubt your good intentions. I keep going back to the fact of how long she may have gone unhappy and you didn't even notice. I'm not talking about Big John's stitch...but LBH's in general. When she feels like her very soul has dried up and she'll never have the excitement with a man like she did with you in the beginning of your R......she thinks that life is over for her as a young, sexually attractive female and she must simply "settle" for what she has around her. I understand how this is probably making you men fuss, but try to bear with me to understand her. She has a longing in her heart and is VULNERABLE and I wonder if men forget that. Some H's are so angry at the W that they forget she doesn't think and feel like he does!! She is different and no matter how many times science points that fact out --there will be some who won't listen. (Not you, BJ...but some.) By the time she reaches the WAW stage, she is in a dangerous frame of mind. This has been building for a looooong time! Okay, I realize I'm repeating myself. But when I saw the other man who posted, it made me remember that so many read these posts and I guess I wanted to bring that point home again. What may seem like a short span of time to you was was a lifetime for her--and she feels that this OM is her "second" chance. No, he doesn't measure up to you! But she is not "normal"....did you forget? wink
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/04/09 07:05 AM
Quote:
When you can learn to move on with your life and accept the fact that she has chosen the path she has--(doesn't mean you like it)-- and there's nothing you can do about it unless she decides to change her mind.....that is the time when you will start to have peace....and not before. So you are bringing a lot of pain on yourself by continually wondering what it is going to take for her. I know that the acceptance is a mental attitude and you can pretend all day long, but unless it is "real" then it doesn't work. I truly hope you can reach that place BJ.


Sandi,

I do know better. I know that I have to accept my W's decision on the path that she has chosen. It goes against every fiber in my being, but...I don't really have a choice. It's so tough on so many levels, not to mention my sons looking to Daddy to fix everything and make it better.

Quote:
...it took a long....long time for your W to reach this place of insanity! I wonder if some of you forget that. She may have dealth with a lot of cr@p for many years before her heart went cold. Some men say (rather self-righteously, I might add) that they would NEVER do what their WAW has done to them. Remember....men & women handle things differently.


I don't think it would be fair to NOT acknowledge the fact that it did take along time for the WAWs to reach the point where they did. What I continue to have a problem with my W is the lack of accountability for her 50% of the breakdown of the MR... even when I know better NOT to expect this from her.

Quote:
One more thing I wanted to point out while I'm at it....and that is those of you who think they would romance their W all the time if only you had a second chance. I know you think you would, but right now...you see this as the "war" to win. But, after you had the "victory" and she was back home and things had gotten back on track again...you would return to the same old routine. At least that is MHO and I think most women of any age would think the same thing.


Well my W certainly feels this way! "People never change" is a phrase my W just loves to repeat. And you know what Sandi, you are right about how we men WOULD return to the same routine eventually UNLESS we truly committed to changing our behavior through regular practice.

Thanks Sandi for another terrific post!
Posted By: dday101798 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/04/09 12:49 PM
All I can add to Sandi's perfect post is that just like there's a 'WAS school of hard knocks', there's also a LBS 'school of hard knocks' and sandi covered quite a bit of the curriculumn.
Posted By: theroadback Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/04/09 02:30 PM
Hey Sandi, hypothetical question, what do you think would have happened if when you were a waw, you read your posts above? would it have hit home? would it have made you come around a little?

Just wondering if those post were to be printed out and 'accidently' left out...
Posted By: WalkingMan Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/04/09 04:05 PM
I know it's hard for us LBH's, but it really helped me to have a little 'tough love' compassion as well. I don't mean persuit, or accomodation. Just that understanding takes the sting out of anger.

what's really hard for me is seeing what my XW's life is like for her now. She's having to get a second job selling to friends just to pay for food. She has a professional job, but her financial as well as WAW rage has left her with little left, while I've got smooth financial and emotional sailing.

She's the Monday hangover after a Saturday night out.

I refuse to help her in any way and am moving on or at least acting as if. Maybe she's hit bottom and is now on her way back up, who knows, but my point here is in line with Sandi....that these things take a long time and resolution will probably not occur at least not any time soon. My XW is the most stubborn person I've ever met, but I see cracks in her wall forming now. She's starting to come out of it and there will be WAW flashbacks.

Sandi's right...the moment I started to move on, things started to change. I started actually living the 180's and the as if's.
I became happy again and my XW took notice and beleived it was genuine. Now she's frustrated because I now have the life we had always planned on...but without her. I don't know if there's any chance for us, she had told me that she now thinks we should leave the door open.

The key is TIME and sticking to your positive atitude, 180's and the biggest one for me is positive, good friends. I have to say that I really wanther to totally get all this out of system before I will even consider her again. This for me is the waking up...

hope this helps!
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/05/09 01:06 AM
Quote:
what's really hard for me is seeing what my XW's life is like for her now. She's having to get a second job selling to friends just to pay for food. She has a professional job, but her financial as well as WAW rage has left her with little left, while I've got smooth financial and emotional sailing.

I refuse to help her in any way and am moving on or at least acting as if. Maybe she's hit bottom and is now on her way back up, who knows, but my point here is in line with Sandi....that these things take a long time and resolution will probably not occur at least not any time soon. My XW is the most stubborn person I've ever met, but I see cracks in her wall forming now. She's starting to come out of it and there will be WAW flashbacks.


SGfan,

Man that is sad to hear. I'm kind of getting the same feeling regarding my W- she just doesn't have her act together. It is very hard to see my W like this as well. My W is also very stubborn like yours. Like you, I am resigned to the fact that this is going to take along time towards resolution... if there is any resolution.

Thanks for the post!
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/05/09 07:57 PM
Quote:
Hey Sandi, hypothetical question, what do you think would have happened if when you were a waw, you read your posts above? would it have hit home? would it have made you come around a little?

Just wondering if those post were to be printed out and 'accidently' left out...


Well, the thing about WAS is that they have to be at a point that they realize they need help, IMHO. At least, that was why I came on this board was to seek some advise and for me to have someone to talk to about what I was going through. I was not in the place that BJ's WAW is in. I was very unsure of what I wanted to do. I was in an EA when I found this board and I was given the best advice and guidance anyone could have had. Somone had recommended a book to read and I ordered it and that book was the start of me really beginning to turn around and have second thoughts of leaving my H. But I was seeking & willing, and if a WAS doesn't have that desire or recognize their pitiful condition, then I don't know that "anything" would help....like you were suggesting. If my H had tried to get me to read a book or come here to this board....it would not have worked....I don't think. The reason is b/c I would have not have had the right attitude if he had tried to get me to do that--and I would have seen it as pursuing. I also would have been angry to see "him" reading any R help.

So, it has to be up to the WAS and I believe timing is everything. God knows that if it had been reversed and my H was in an EA, I would probably have tried to leave things out for him to read, b/c that is how I am naturally turned. LBS have such a hard road b/c part of their trial is to wait for the WAS to see things for themselves. I can sure understand how you would be tempted to "help" things along, but honestly....I don't think it would work if you did that.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/07/09 01:11 AM

Sandi,

Well here is an update on my sitch these past couple of days.

My W told me on Thursday that OM broke up with her because he just couldn't handle the thought of being the person who broke up her family and caused her H to file for D. My W started telling me how OM was angry with me for filing for D before I stopped her and asked if she was blaming ME for OM dumping her. She said "no" she wasn't then added that she "wasn't counting on" OM being in the picture forever. I then asked her when OM dumped her and she wouldn't tell me. What was interesting was that she didn't look me in the eye the entire time she was telling me this- which suggested to me that she was being less than truthful.

Then on Friday, we were scheduled to attend a mandatory mediation orientation seminar at the courthouse. The seminar was open to both petitioners (me) and respondents (W). I had already planned on going to the seminar on Friday; my W took the day off of work to go as this was going to be the only time she as a respondent could go before our scheduled court mediation appointment later this month. Well, long story short, my W leaves my D3 with me, spends the afternoon hanging out with a girlfriend, arrives home late and despite my efforts to get through traffic, we miss the seminar. (Not good for my W; fortunately I can attend a make-up seminar in a few weeks.)

As I had taken the afternoon off of work, I was not happy and unfortunately I vented my irritation on the way back home. We argued and my W started making nasty comments, telling me how she didn't love or like me anymore and didn't want to rekindle anything with me period. When we got home, we started arguing about her unreasonable expectations regarding the D (especially custody of the kids) and that's when I made a comment to my W about her world crumbling all around her and her dragging me and the kids down with her. We made eye contact and for a few seconds I thought my W was going to cry before she turned away. (I know, I should have kept quiet on the way home and then afterwards. Dumb mistake.) We kept clear of each other for the remainder of the day and evening; I spent the evening with my boys while she watched tv.

The following morning (Saturday), I got the kids packed up in the car for a big Labor Day party at my Mom's. My W wasn't invited; she said previously she wasn't interested in going anyway and was planning on attending a friend's birthday shower that day. As I told my W goodbye, she gave a very terse response like she was mad. As we are driving away, D3 tells me "Daddy, Mommy is mad at you." Me: "Why is that honey?" D3: "I don't know." Huh? Anyways, we came home late last night and my W was still up- apparently she hadn't gone to her friend's baby shower after all and had spent the day cleaning house.

I don't know quite what to make of what my W has been saying and doing lately. I know I shouldn't be since I'm trying to detach completely. Can you be detached- or working on detachment- and still be curious?
Posted By: Sara Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/07/09 01:30 AM
Uh-oh, WAW in crisis. Tried to jump from one moving horse to another, but OM was having none of it. Nice way to put it, he didn't want responsibility for breaking up her family. Not, he didn't care to take on a new wife and children. Hmmm. Good way to spin fear of commitment. So now she has to clean the house, metaphorically. Yep, she has to put her house in order cuz it's falling down and she has nowhere to go.
Posted By: iwantittowork Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/07/09 03:30 PM
BigJohn, Sandi, Sara,

I know BJ has his hands full, and I am in the same boat. I can use some guidance.

If we go legal to legal D rather than Mediation, what are my chances of escaping this thing with some skin left?

I am hurting big time thinking about my upcoming mess, and not trying to hijack, as reading your replies to BJ is so similar to my sitch..
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/07/09 09:04 PM
Originally Posted By: iwantittowork
BigJohn, Sandi, Sara,

I know BJ has his hands full, and I am in the same boat. I can use some guidance.

If we go legal to legal D rather than Mediation, what are my chances of escaping this thing with some skin left?

I am hurting big time thinking about my upcoming mess, and not trying to hijack, as reading your replies to BJ is so similar to my sitch..


IWITW,

The short answer is that D is going to cost more than mediation for sure. However, if your W is going to be fair with regards to property division (50%) and child custody (50%), you mutually agree that D is definitely the right answer to your sitch and things like personal accountability is not important, mediation may be a viable alternative.

The above criteria don't fit my sitch, so my W and I are going to do things the hard way- assuming she is unable to extract her head out of her a$$ before the D is final. I'm seriously stressed about all of the implications too- the emotional impact to my kids, the financial devastation, etc.- but what the hell am I going to do? Of course, my W is friggin CLUELESS about everything- too busy being selfish, ungrateful and daydreaming about a fantasy life like in the movies. mad

IWITW, Any way you slice it, D is going to suck big time for everyone involved.
Posted By: Jman Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/07/09 11:53 PM
Hey BJ,

I will respond over here. I appreciate u checkin in on me. I had a good weekend and today I got to spend the day with the kids and we had a great time. The W is acting like everything is ok except no affection and does not want to show herself naked in front of me. We are talking but not talking about R stuff I will not bring it up anymore bc nothing good has come out of it. I am just waiting it out and enjoying whenever I go out with friends.

How is your sit? How was your weekend?

Jman
Posted By: iwantittowork Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/08/09 12:16 AM
Quote:
The above criteria don't fit my sitch, so my W and I are going to do things the hard way- assuming she is unable to extract her head out of her a$$ before the D is final. I'm seriously stressed about all of the implications too- the emotional impact to my kids, the financial devastation, etc.- but what the hell am I going to do? Of course, my W is friggin CLUELESS about everything- too busy being selfish, ungrateful and daydreaming about a fantasy life like in the movies.


God, I have written these same things myself in my sitch. I feel for you man. I really do, I am sitting on the couch with my W and d8 tonight, if you peeked in, you would think we were still a couple, and and it's just sinking in that she is going to try and clean me out.

We can't show them how much this affects us, correct? How do we take the offense here to protect ourselves?

I am calling the mediator tomorrow myself, to try and setup one last attempt at it. I am not holding out much hope. The thought of how much money I will have to hand over to her weekly is making me physically sick to my stomach. She gets to walk with a bagful of cash, new boobs, new car, and leaves me holding the bills. How in the hell is this going to be fair to me?
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/08/09 05:38 AM
Originally Posted By: Jman
The W is acting like everything is ok except no affection and does not want to show herself naked in front of me. We are talking but not talking about R stuff I will not bring it up anymore bc nothing good has come out of it. I am just waiting it out and enjoying whenever I go out with friends.

How is your sit? How was your weekend?

Jman


Jman,

The weekend went well. Spent all day Saturday with the kids at my Mom's house for a party. Lots of nice people and great food. Very nice. W was not invited and spent the day alone at our place cleaning house. Went to church then motorcycle riding with my son on Sunday. Kicked back and relaxed most of the day today. So overall a nice weekend.

Nothing much to say to my W beyond communicating the bare essentials. Certainly no R talk since Friday (see my prior post).

Glad to hear you had a good weekend yourself.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/08/09 07:01 AM
Quote:
God, I have written these same things myself in my sitch. I feel for you man. I really do, I am sitting on the couch with my W and d8 tonight, if you peeked in, you would think we were still a couple, and and it's just sinking in that she is going to try and clean me out.


IWITW,

You have my sympathy too. My sitch is the same way- unless you knew what was going on with me and my W, you'd think everything is "normal". It's bizarre. Never thought I'd ever find myself in a sitch like this- my worst nightmare. Like you, my W is going to hit me hard financially not to mention fight hard to stop me from getting 50% custody of my kids. I have to admit, as hard as I'm trying to detach, it's HARD not feeling pi$$ed off at the emotional and financial destruction my W is going to wreak on BOTH of us and the kids if this D goes through. I've been very responsible with our family finances and if left alone, she and I could retire well by age 60. And as for our kids- well, all three were well adjusted, happy and doing good in school- until my W's A. Now S9 for sure is going to need some counseling; not sure yet about S11- he's more quiet and internalizes things. D3 will be the least affected of the three. I could go on and on about how blessed we are- how blessed my W has been. But no, as far as my W is concerned, her whole life sucks and so does her M and so does her H.

You know, IWITW, the more I think about it the more I'm starting to question why I'm fighting for my M. Like I've told my W before, there are A TON of women who would love to have Big John be THEIR problem... and that is WITHOUT the personal improvements currently underway. There are A TON of women who would love to be a part of a beautiful family like ours and have all the blessings my W currently enjoys. The fact that my W has been absolutely DESPICABLE and SELFISH in her words and behavior since the beginning of her A not to mention completely ungrateful is frankly getting REALLY OLD. Add to it that my W seems to be accepting of the impending devastation of D on all of us without a care or worry whatsoever and I have to wonder sometimes if I really do want her in my life anymore.

Quote:
We can't show them how much this affects us, correct? How do we take the offense here to protect ourselves?


Every time we let it slip how pissed off we are or how worried or mad we are, it benefits them more than us. Because it demonstrates to them that we still care and they still have us over a barrel. Become disinterested- drop the rope- and suddenly thing aren't quite as comfortable.

As far as protecting ourselves, I think it starts will being proactive across the board, getting educated and then developing a solid game plan to minimize the damage to us as best we can. That and securing a good attorney.

Quote:
I am calling the mediator tomorrow myself, to try and setup one last attempt at it. I am not holding out much hope. The thought of how much money I will have to hand over to her weekly is making me physically sick to my stomach. She gets to walk with a bagful of cash, new boobs, new car, and leaves me holding the bills. How in the hell is this going to be fair to me?


Mediation may be the best route for you to start with, however in my sitch I look at it as my fall back position. The reason is that mediation is all about compromise- which isn't necessarily a bad thing- however there are some things I will not compromise on (i.e. 50% custody of my kids). Once I'm done battling for what I won't compromise on and all that is left are things I will consider compromising on, then we can talk about mediation. Of course, I'm still hoping things won't get that far in the process.

As far as fairness goes, I think the best we can do is make things as less unfair as we possibly can.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/08/09 12:17 PM
BJ, I will talk more later, but for now I want to remind you to not allow yourself to be rescue your WAW who is in crisis. She is putting the blame on your for her OM dumping her and she's made it clear she doesn't want to reconcile with you. She needs to experience what it is like to be alone and not wanted by you.

I see she is still using D3 to be her little tool in telling you how "mommy" is feeling.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/08/09 03:26 PM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
BJ, I will talk more later, but for now I want to remind you to not allow yourself to be rescue your WAW who is in crisis. She is putting the blame on your for her OM dumping her and she's made it clear she doesn't want to reconcile with you. She needs to experience what it is like to be alone and not wanted by you.

I see she is still using D3 to be her little tool in telling you how "mommy" is feeling.



Sandi,

Great to hear from you. Hope you had a great Labor Day weekend. Yes, that is the plan- no rescuing my W. I can't- she has to crash and burn in order to "get it". Besides, I'm not counting on my W's break up with OM to last anyways. Both my W and OM are so desperate for each others attention and OM to have his ego stroked at any cost that it is not practical to think that they WON'T cease contact for very long.

Talk to you soon.
Posted By: dday101798 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/08/09 03:55 PM
BJ, BJ, BJ....

Despite all that is going on and taking form to happen, I highly suggest you find a route to realese your pent up anger at it. Maybe you are doing so by posting it here (which is absolutely fine), but you need to find an outlet for it, get it out before it trips a fuse soon enough.

Yes it completely bites that she does not see nor care to think of the implications facing before you both should the D go through. I'll tell you, each court date that went by, XW went from crying at the first to ZERO emotion on 'Judgement Day'. She must have downed 300 valuumes or something to stand there, lifeless and cold and profess to he entire room that the last 11 years of her life were so horrid and that there was no chance at things being repaired. Watching that, standing within a few mere feet of her, I damn near broke out in tears wanting to shake every ounce of snese in to her that I could muster, but to no avail, it would have been pointless.

I tell you what tho, with your W and OM on the rocks, brother I'd be making myself out to look completely over her if I were you. How crushing would that be to her ego system? "gee, OM doesn't want me, nor does by LBH, who was supposed to be there to catch my fall, what to do? This isn't what I planned" would be my first guess, maybe I'm way off for you sitch, but in mine there were a couple of occasions where XW and OM were going at it, and me like a dummy screwed up my opportunities and boosted her ego back up to go back to him.

Make sense?

As far as the fallout goes, well, that's where I'm at, financially ruined, posessionless, practically childless, but free from the tyrany of XW's blind insanity. She lives in the aftermath of her own mess. I've said it before and I'll say it again, it has to get really hard sometimes to stare your kids in the face and know you are the responsible party for forever messing up the rest of their lives.
Posted By: iwantittowork Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/08/09 03:57 PM
Not trying to hijack here BJ, but I wanted to post this here, as posts from Sandi and people like her, and yourself, have been at the heart of me realizing something this morning that has blown me away. It's helping me with the emotion of the past couple of days, and maybe could be a piece to your own puzzle help, even though our sitch's, lives, the people we are are different.

Quote:
However, I just woke up in a cold sweat, as I just realized something.

As I look at my W currently, I see where my anger and resentment now comes from.

Where was this women throughout our R? This is the women I new existed, but never could find. Not saying she is perfect, and with her needed to leave me its certainly not so.

She's confident, super attractive, and the current commitment and dedication to the things she is doing are higher than I have ever seen.

The house is cleaner than its ever been, she cleans her car, works out, is going to classes she wants to take, looking into career options, went to some real estate classes, and on and on.

All things that were completely missing from her in our R. I tried so hard to get some of that out of her, taking her even to real estate classes when we started looking at investment properties, countless times asking her what she wanted to do, where she wanted to go, to take some pride in what we had already, and try and maintain it.

That resentment from me over this I see now, and needs to be cleared somehow. She's going to live a great life. Without me. The one that I had been trying to find for us, and in her, our whole relationship!

Damn that hurts, and now I know why I need to work on GAL stuff as well, I can't wallow around in pity and misplaced pride. The only thing I can hope to do is live a great life without her too.

I see the woman I always new was there now, and it hurts bad that she thinks she needs to leave to be that woman.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/09/09 02:36 AM
Originally Posted By: dday101798
BJ, BJ, BJ....

Despite all that is going on and taking form to happen, I highly suggest you find a route to realese your pent up anger at it. Maybe you are doing so by posting it here (which is absolutely fine), but you need to find an outlet for it, get it out before it trips a fuse soon enough.


Dday,

Thanks for the feedback. Posting here, going to the gym and debriefing with a few close friends is how I find my release. Even still, if I think about things long enough, yeah I still get pi$$Sed. Not enough to blow a gasket though.

Quote:
I tell you what tho, with your W and OM on the rocks, brother I'd be making myself out to look completely over her if I were you.


Agreed. And that is precisely what I am doing. Keeping cool, being polite when I have to talk to her, but reserved and disinterested. I've started thinking recently like a bachelor again- about how things were in the past -before I M my W- when I'd break up with a G/F, eventually I'd find another one just as cute and sweet in her own way as the previous one. It'll be kind of the same thing again to some degree if I do D from my W. I know there are a lot of good women out there who would appreciate me for who I am and what I have to offer. So this seems to help a little bit.

Quote:
She lives in the aftermath of her own mess. I've said it before and I'll say it again, it has to get really hard sometimes to stare your kids in the face and know you are the responsible party for forever messing up the rest of their lives.


Absolutely. I agree with you 100% regarding the kids. What's advantageous about my sitch is that all three of my kids mostly look like me, especially the eyes. No doubt who the father is, plus if my W ever hooks up with OM, he'll stick out like the proverbial genital wart that he is. Oh woops, there I go again being judgmental. What is it about your posts that get the better of me Dday? Anyways my W has and is going to continue to have three sets of my eyes looking at her every step of the way and beyond.

Thanks for stopping by.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/09/09 03:16 AM
Originally Posted By: iwantittowork
Not trying to hijack here BJ, but I wanted to post this here, as posts from Sandi and people like her, and yourself, have been at the heart of me realizing something this morning that has blown me away. It's helping me with the emotion of the past couple of days, and maybe could be a piece to your own puzzle help, even though our sitch's, lives, the people we are are different.

Quote:
As I look at my W currently, I see where my anger and resentment now comes from.

Where was this women throughout our R? This is the women I new existed, but never could find. Not saying she is perfect, and with her needed to leave me its certainly not so.

She's confident, super attractive, and the current commitment and dedication to the things she is doing are higher than I have ever seen.

The house is cleaner than its ever been, she cleans her car, works out, is going to classes she wants to take, looking into career options, went to some real estate classes, and on and on.

All things that were completely missing from her in our R. I tried so hard to get some of that out of her, taking her even to real estate classes when we started looking at investment properties, countless times asking her what she wanted to do, where she wanted to go, to take some pride in what we had already, and try and maintain it.

That resentment from me over this I see now, and needs to be cleared somehow. She's going to live a great life. Without me. The one that I had been trying to find for us, and in her, our whole relationship!

Damn that hurts, and now I know why I need to work on GAL stuff as well, I can't wallow around in pity and misplaced pride. The only thing I can hope to do is live a great life without her too.

I see the woman I always new was there now, and it hurts bad that she thinks she needs to leave to be that woman.




IWITW,

I've seen the same behavior with my own W. I've even called her on it, especially the working out and the tan. Where the hell was all of this dedication and hard work before the A? It's amazing how the WAWs will gripe about how their Hs didn't take the initiative to make improvements themselves before the chaos but can't see themselves from the same perspective. Same with the "too little/too late" attitude when the Hs start taking corrective measures in the midst of the crisis while the WAWs work their butts off getting as physically fit as they can possibly be.

Where I disagree with the poster of that quote is when he assumes that his WAW is "going to live a great life". There are several reasons why I don't necessarily think my W is going to "live a great life" if she blows up our family with a D. Not that I wish my W a life of suffering post D- I don't- however I do wish to see her reap everything she sows- to be held accountable.

First and foremost is the fact that my W (and yours) are cheaters. They broke all of the covenants they made with us when they married us. Their marriage vows were and will always be the most sacred and important promises they have made in their lives- and they couldn't honor them. You and I on the other hand have honored our marriage vows.

Secondly is the fact that both of our Ws put their own welfare and selfish desires ahead of their Hs, kids and family. You and I have done the opposite.

I could go on, but you get the idea. This kind of despicable behavior by our Ws hardly lays the foundation for a future full of happiness. If I was a betting man, I'd lay heavy odds that you and I have a better shot at long term happiness than our WAWs do. JMHO.
Posted By: dday101798 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/09/09 12:33 PM
Originally Posted By: BigJohn
What is it about your posts that get the better of me Dday?


Well, all I can really say is that there are a lot of similarities in nearly everyone's stories on here, yours in dangerously close to mine, and I guess I'm just trying to feed in all the mistakes I made to maybe, just maybe help yours out, you know, kind of the pay it forward approach.

I think it wasn't until my final thread I have going now in surviving that I did not lose my anger and frustration with the situation, and it damn near destroyed me. It's certanly done enough damage to the 'friendship' between my XW and I, so even if your M can't be saved, you may at least be better off in that sense. Wether your W likes it or not, you will always have 3 reasons to be in contact with each other and have to function together to a certain degree. I sumarize my sitch now as 'the war' is over, there is nothing left to fight about anymore, but we must exist as peacefuly as possible as neighbors on the planet called parenthood.

I'll have to find my thread in this forum as I'm sure I had a bit of ranting and carrying on that got me NOWHERE but delayed on the road to recovery (surviving). And I like you, at the time said to myself and everyone that I was fine and wouldn't blow a gasket, then all the sudden out of nowhere, it would happen, over and over, it just was a matter of time.

Maybe you are doing what is best for how you handle things, I don't know. I would say tho, be careful who and what you confide in with 'friends'. Best 'worst' case scinerio, they get worn out and turn away. Worst 'worst' case scinerio, they leak things back to your W, as unfathomable as you make think so, it DOES happen. The thought of D can be a scary concept to some people looking from the outside in, maybe something of their childhood, who knows, but they will report to W (perhaps indirectly amongst themselves) thinking they are helping protect you, when in fact it's doing the exact opposite. 'Nother lesson learned the hard way.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/09/09 03:27 PM
Originally Posted By: dday101798
[quote=BigJohn] What is it about your posts that get the better of me Dday?


Quote:
Well, all I can really say is that there are a lot of similarities in nearly everyone's stories on here, yours in dangerously close to mine, and I guess I'm just trying to feed in all the mistakes I made to maybe, just maybe help yours out, you know, kind of the pay it forward approach.


Dday,

I appreciate all of your feedback, especially since you have already been down the path I'm on. I feel like I'm doing pretty good managing my emotions right now. If things were to start going sideways I think I have a pretty good support system I can count on in addition to the aforementioned outlets.

I can't say what my R with my W will be should we get D. I'm sure it will eventually be amicable. But, I don't think we will be close if for no other reason than she disappointed me and our kids as a person on such a massive scale.

I agree that after a certain point, ranting looses it's value and it becomes a drag on your personal progress. I chose to blow off some of my excess steam here, particularly with regards to OM, since he is such a complete jerk off. I also agree with leaning on friends and family too much- gotta be a little careful or you will burn people out.

Thanks Dday.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/10/09 01:21 AM
Quote:
Where the hell was all of this dedication and hard work before the A?


Don't forget that she has been high on the drug and when that fizzles out.....then she will crash big time. Don't feel jealous of that b/c what she has felt has not been "real" love or energy or pride......it was just brain chemicals fooling her and she was trying to find the fountain of youth. She will either be very pitiful when she crashes, or else she will be so bitter that nobody can stand to be around her.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/10/09 02:28 AM
Quote:
She will either be very pitiful when she crashes, or else she will be so bitter that nobody can stand to be around her.


Well that will be interesting to see. Since last Saturday my W seems to have stabilized emotionally and is acting fairly "normal" and occasionally chipper. Probably back in contact with OM, but I'm no longer actively keeping track of that stuff anymore.

Given the length of time the A has been going on, I am curious how my W will react if OM does drop her for good. If my W's A fizzles and dies a natural death over time will my W still experience an emotional meltdown?
Posted By: dday101798 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/10/09 02:28 PM
Originally Posted By: BigJohn
Given the length of time the A has been going on, I am curious how my W will react if OM does drop her for good. If my W's A fizzles and dies a natural death over time will my W still experience an emotional meltdown?


I would say it's safe to say that either way, much as I told my XW who thought that running 90 miles away to the middle of nowhere would allow her to live a 'normal life without conviction', you can't run or hide from your conscience.
Posted By: WalkingMan Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/10/09 02:32 PM
Yea, my XW went through several crashes as the guilt and status of her A fluctuated. It drove me nuts.

When my XW's A ended, she sunk into a depression and had to go get the help of a psychiatrist. The funny thing is that the medications made her more reasonable. Getting into therapy also helped her to end the self-damaging effects of the A. But, also it helped her to take the position that she needed to work on herself, by herself.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/10/09 10:54 PM
Quote:
If my W's A fizzles and dies a natural death over time will my W still experience an emotional meltdown?


If it fizzles, then she won't be interested in OM and therefore she won't have a meltdown due to the A......but she may react to her finances or whatever else she may have to deal with as the result of her A. However, if the OM dumps her while she is still running on her "love induced" chemicals, then she will more than likely have a meltdown. There are different things to consider and "where" she is emotionally in the A.

I know I've brought this up before, but I still think the best thing you could do is to "dump" her and act as if you are simply excited beyound belief at being single and able to date OW......and then proceed to do it. Now, that compromises what I feel as a Christian, but it would work. You think she doesn't want you? Test her and see.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/11/09 12:28 AM
Quote:
I know I've brought this up before, but I still think the best thing you could do is to "dump" her and act as if you are simply excited beyound belief at being single and able to date OW......and then proceed to do it. Now, that compromises what I feel as a Christian, but it would work. You think she doesn't want you? Test her and see.


Sandi,

You might have mentioned this before. Most recently RobX made the same suggestion to me.

I agree with your theory about dating OW and the jealously factor with my W. But that would compromise my own Christian beliefs and be lowering my standards. My kids need at least one responsible parent. And besides, dabbling in dating OW could easily make my sitch more complicated than it already is.

Right now I feel like I'm at the point emotionally where I have dropped the rope. After our last big R talk (after coming back from the out of state trip in August) I told my W in no uncertain terms that I was DONE with her behavior and disrespect towards me. I am polite and respectful but keep communication with my W to a bare minimum. I'm avoiding any talk about the MR or D- although she has attempted to bait/engage me a couple times about the D since I filed. I am pretty much keeping to myself and spending time with my kids. I guess I'm probably entering the "acceptance" phase of my sitch- accepting the fact that unless my W chooses otherwise, I'm going to be D'd and single again in the near future.

As much as accepting my possible fate as a casualty of D stinks, at least it frees up space in my mind to focus more on the person I want to be and think about the possibilities for the future.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/11/09 03:07 AM
You are right, BJ, and you are the fist person I think I've suggested that to. I suppose the dating issue would have to be a personal decision for people. There are many here on the board who think that is the key in getting the WAS's attention, and as you said....it would, but you have other things you have to consider. I think you are being better than I am. I feel like a todler who just wants to fall down in the floor and thow myself a big old fit! mad (Just kidding.......a little.)
Posted By: MrBond Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/11/09 04:53 AM
I don't think there's anything wrong with going out with someone of the opposite sex as a friend. Heck we all can't have same-sex friends.

Take it as that and you won't be compromising your morals.
Posted By: theroadback Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/11/09 08:18 PM
What Stuck said...

My wife thought I went out with someone the other night (I did not) She initiated not one but three R talk's in one day (she has not initiated an R talk in over a year)

It works.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/12/09 04:10 AM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
You are right, BJ, and you are the fist person I think I've suggested that to. I suppose the dating issue would have to be a personal decision for people. There are many here on the board who think that is the key in getting the WAS's attention, and as you said....it would, but you have other things you have to consider. I think you are being better than I am. I feel like a todler who just wants to fall down in the floor and thow myself a big old fit! mad (Just kidding.......a little.)


Sandi,

Right now I can really relate to wanting to throw a fit. I had a pretty unpleasant night last night. My W baited me into a D talk by telling me how much she wanted to save money on Ls by trying to mutually agree to some sort of custody agreement with our kids. My W started the conversation with a reasonable tone and I got suckered in to the discussion. Long story short, my W tried throwing a few more breadcrumbs my way but it was far from equitable or fair. (Now she is willing to allow me 30% time with the kids up from "every other weekend".) Then she mentioned how she is coming to realize how much of a major economic impact a D is going to have on both of us including the legal fees. shocked Things got unpleasant when I told her my expectation was 50% custody of the kids if we D. She about started to cry while asking "How could you take the kids away from their mother 50% of the time?" I felt like asking her the same question about me! Then she started telling me about all the "suffering" she has been enduring while indulging in her A and that is when I about lost it. I couldn't believe what I was hearing! She is the one who has been "suffering"?! Well, I guess I wasn't able to hide the incredulous look on my face very well before asking her to explain to me how she was "suffering". She didn't answer and stomped away mad. Probably best that she did or else we would have been up half the night arguing and fighting.

Then tonight I go to grab the laptop and find her email left open with an email thread to OM. Still in contact with OM- what a surprise! (I don't know if this was "accidental" or not. W can be forgetful at times but I'm not a big believer in coincidences either.) Anyways, in the email she basically told OM she had no regrets that he found her, that they had the A, that the A had revealed a lot of shortcomings in her life with me and that she was OK with "breaking things off" with him to "get him out of her head and emotions" so "my H can't use you (OM) against me in the D". Predictably irrational, OM responded back on the thread by stating "That's good because now that scumbag won't have any excuses!"

She stated that she felt bad that he felt bad about causing the breakup of our M but that she "didn't have any regrets now about getting a D", especially now that she had been with "a real man". laugh crazy laugh She commented on how astute he (OM) was about dealing with relationships and thanked him for all of his "support" and relationship advice. crazy

She acknowledged that it was highly unlikely that they would get together as she could not move out of state with our kids and that she was OK with the fact that they both might get together with different people in the future. She stated that she had a lead on a promising job prospect, that she had spoken to a L who had promised to get her exactly the child custody she wants and that the future "looked bright".

Sandi, my W's sitch is soooo pathetic. She is so terribly confused and deluded. She continues to dig herself a bigger hole every day and now she is mixed up with a L of her own who will run up a large bill very quickly if she is not careful. I'm focused now on surviving as best I can with my kids while my W self-destructs. I absolutely hate this!! But what can I do?
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/12/09 04:12 AM
Originally Posted By: theroadback
What Stuck said...

My wife thought I went out with someone the other night (I did not) She initiated not one but three R talk's in one day (she has not initiated an R talk in over a year)

It works.


Stuck/TRB,

Thanks for the feedback guys. I don't if anything will work on my W right now, she is incredibly confused and deluded right now. (See my post above.)
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/12/09 05:08 AM
She IS deluded. This is your mantra.

I dont' know how it works in your state, but here in California, the court wants both parents involved as much as possible and this means they want to have each parent have 50-50% custody. If she tries to bait you with L talk - do what I didn't do last weekend. REfuse to talk about it at all. Tell her whatever she puts in writing you will give to your L. And then talk to your L about your rights.

Any father who wants to be a huge part of their children's life should be. My L reassured me that the courts' main focus is the wellbeing of the children. And that means two involved parents!

Im so sorry you saw those emails to OM. God that would kill me. Anyone who thinks running to an OP when just reacting off of their spouse IS delusional. That's all it is - a reaction. Those brain chemicals someone was talking about earlier in the thread are for real. They cloud people's thinking. Try to stay calm. We;re here.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/12/09 05:17 AM
PS
Even though my H is the one filing papers, and as PISSSSSSED as this makes me - I will not comprimise my S. Just remember how a sane person would view this. I want my S to have as much of his father as he needs. I also want to spend as little $$ as possible. IF this means throwing less at a L so that I get a little less in the end, fine by me. The D is a big waste of $$ and if she wants to throw money away fighting about it, she is crossing her emotions with rationality. DELUSIONAL>
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/12/09 06:14 AM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
She IS deluded. This is your mantra.

I dont' know how it works in your state, but here in California, the court wants both parents involved as much as possible and this means they want to have each parent have 50-50% custody. If she tries to bait you with L talk - do what I didn't do last weekend. REfuse to talk about it at all. Tell her whatever she puts in writing you will give to your L. And then talk to your L about your rights.

Any father who wants to be a huge part of their children's life should be. My L reassured me that the courts' main focus is the wellbeing of the children. And that means two involved parents!

Im so sorry you saw those emails to OM. God that would kill me. Anyone who thinks running to an OP when just reacting off of their spouse IS delusional. That's all it is - a reaction. Those brain chemicals someone was talking about earlier in the thread are for real. They cloud people's thinking. Try to stay calm. We;re here.


Hope,

Actually I'm here in California too. You are right about the courts to a certain degree, although I understand that there is still a bias to some extent against fathers. Guess I'll be finding out soon enough.

Yes, it hurts to see the email but like everything else with my W's A....it's not real. I will be OK. If I do get D'd, I will be a great catch for some other woman. It's my kids I worry about the most.

Thanks for the feedback and support Hope.
Posted By: WalkingMan Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/12/09 06:35 PM
Remember, beleive none of what you hear, and half of what you see. I would say that your W and OM are telling each other what they want to hear. I would beleive none of it, but at the same time, take steps to protect yourself. It's time to get all of you ducks in a row and be the adult. It's like having a teenager in the house!


Make sure you keep a record of all these emails if you can.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/12/09 08:49 PM
Originally Posted By: Sgfan
Remember, beleive none of what you hear, and half of what you see. I would say that your W and OM are telling each other what they want to hear. I would beleive none of it, but at the same time, take steps to protect yourself. It's time to get all of you ducks in a row and be the adult. It's like having a teenager in the house!


Make sure you keep a record of all these emails if you can.



Thanks SG. Exactly my take on it. I know that during the course of the A my W has been showering OM with positive affirmations i.e. "You are a great person", "You are a winner", etc. I'm sure he has been doing the same. Both of them have self-esteem issues, that is part of the mutual attraction.

California is a no-fault D state so the emails are of little value.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/13/09 05:36 AM
Originally Posted By: BigJohn


Actually I'm here in California too. You are right about the courts to a certain degree, although I understand that there is still a bias to some extent against fathers. Guess I'll be finding out soon enough.

Yes, it hurts to see the email but like everything else with my W's A....it's not real. I will be OK. If I do get D'd, I will be a great catch for some other woman. It's my kids I worry about the most.

Thanks for the feedback and support Hope.


I'm with you. I worry about my S sooooo much. Waaay more than I worry about me. I'll be fine. He is a tiny innocent victim.

What does your lawyer say? I am curious. My L said what I told you that the courts are not biased against the father if anything they really encourage the father being there more than less.

As far as the email s- I would be tempted too. However, I ask myself this when I'm tempted to snoop about the OP - "Do I really want to know?" Guessing is painful. Knowing is worse.

Do you really want to do that to yourself?

Remember, WE are the great catches. Is she really in love iwth this bozo, or is she using him as a fantasy to boost her self esteem? My guess is the latter. That's what gets me through the night when I worry about OW. I figure there's no way they are in love and god help her if she is stuck with him. He is no walk in the park. But having a fling can be anything you want it to when it's full of fantasy - not really knowing the other person. Not facing both sides of the person, the good and bad. When it's all mutual flattery it is not based in reality. It's like a drug. And drugs wear off, my friend.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/13/09 07:10 AM
Quote:
What does your lawyer say? I am curious. My L said what I told you that the courts are not biased against the father if anything they really encourage the father being there more than less.


Hope,

You are right in that things are changing with regards to the treatment of fathers in family court, however there is still some bias albeit not nearly as bad as it was 10-15 years ago.

Quote:
Remember, WE are the great catches. Is she really in love iwth this bozo, or is she using him as a fantasy to boost her self esteem? My guess is the latter. That's what gets me through the night when I worry about OW. I figure there's no way they are in love and god help her if she is stuck with him. He is no walk in the park. But having a fling can be anything you want it to when it's full of fantasy - not really knowing the other person. Not facing both sides of the person, the good and bad. When it's all mutual flattery it is not based in reality. It's like a drug. And drugs wear off, my friend.


Looking at OM and knowing what I know about him I can only conclude that it has to be fantasy with my W.

Thanks Hope.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/13/09 09:16 PM
I think you are still too nice to her. When she is giving you all that cr@p about her suffering in her A, why don't you tell her what you are thinking instead of holding it in? She needs to hear the truth about herself!

As far as the OM goes, he gets off the hook in all of this b/c she's done just exactly what he wanted. But, she is so deep in her fog until "any" other man will do for her and her email said that!

I know you still have feelings for her, but I hope you will not give in to her and let her get her way about things. She needs to hear the facts about what kind of "mother" she is. She isn't living in the right century to think that kids automatically go with the mother. Oh, she gets me stired up! You are a nicer person than me, BJ.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/14/09 01:38 AM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
I think you are still too nice to her. When she is giving you all that cr@p about her suffering in her A, why don't you tell her what you are thinking instead of holding it in? She needs to hear the truth about herself!


Sandi,

I've already told her several times in the past what I think about her and her behavior. She either doesn't get, is in denial and/or doesn't care. Repeating myself isn't going to get me anywhere; actions will. I don't know how long it is going to take for it to sink into her head that I mean business. When I said I was done with her crap, I meant it. Unfortunately, I think one of the drawbacks of being "understanding" these past six months has been the development of a false sense of confidence in my W. That is going to change.

Quote:
As far as the OM goes, he gets off the hook in all of this b/c she's done just exactly what he wanted. But, she is so deep in her fog until "any" other man will do for her and her email said that!


If there is one thing OM is good at, it's being manipulative and skilled in avoiding any accountability. As far as my W's comments go, some of this may have been for both her benefit as well as OM's benefit so he can feel like he is exiting the A as "Mr. Big Shot". Regardless, if my W really thinks she can do better than me, then go for it! I'm an all around great catch- that's not just a positive affirmation, it is the truth!

Quote:
I know you still have feelings for her, but I hope you will not give in to her and let her get her way about things. She needs to hear the facts about what kind of "mother" she is. She isn't living in the right century to think that kids automatically go with the mother. Oh, she gets me stired up! You are a nicer person than me, BJ.


No, I'm looking out for my interests and my kids interests now.
Posted By: MrBond Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/14/09 08:06 AM
BJ, have you been going out yourself showing her you have a life? You don't have to tell her where you're going or what you're doing, but maybe just to show that you are a catch.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/14/09 02:54 PM
Originally Posted By: stuck808
BJ, have you been going out yourself showing her you have a life? You don't have to tell her where you're going or what you're doing, but maybe just to show that you are a catch.


Hey Stuck,

I've gone out with the guys on occasion along with doing things with the kids. Also regularly going to the gym. I'm on a pretty tight budget right now so I'm pretty limited in terms of GAL.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/16/09 02:45 AM
Hi BJ, just checking in to see how you are doing. Man, it's a good thing you don't do everything I suggest or I'd have you pouding your W into the ground! Or....could you tell that I was getting a little put out with her treatment of you? I am glad you are a man of honor and rise above her faults and continue to conduct yourself with dignity. The world doesn't see near enough of that anymore. You can be proud of how you carried yourself throughout this ordeal.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/16/09 03:56 AM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Hi BJ, just checking in to see how you are doing. Man, it's a good thing you don't do everything I suggest or I'd have you pouding your W into the ground! Or....could you tell that I was getting a little put out with her treatment of you? I am glad you are a man of honor and rise above her faults and continue to conduct yourself with dignity. The world doesn't see near enough of that anymore. You can be proud of how you carried yourself throughout this ordeal.


Sandi,

Thanks for checking in. Yes, I could tell by your posts that my W's antics were getting under even your skin. That's pretty bad!

Well, I'm doing good. I think I'm really finally to the point where I have almost completely detached- or is it resignation(?)- thanks to my W's ongoing campaign of BS. I'm for sure really DONE being treated this way and I may just be completely done with my W- at least for now absent a miracle. It's just too much.

As to my conduct throughout the sitch, all I can say is that my W could never expect anything less from her H. Too bad she is choosing at the moment to build me up in her head as some defective personality, sociopath, bad person or whatever else she can think of to justify her treatment of me and D'ing me.
Posted By: WalkingMan Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/16/09 03:33 PM
If she's anything like my XW, I'm sure much of your wife's rationale is due to the fact that there's a conflict between her selfish urges and repressing the adult. Anytime someone can't reconcile "unacceptable behavior" with what they know is acceptable and mature....they flip out. It's almost a stage they go through when they start to realize that maybe they are making very bad choices and hurting alot of people, even though they may have been neglected in the past.

They just can't face it all at once and must look at themselves in small doses. It takes time, lots of time. No one wants think they are a horrible person., even if they are a "bull in a china shop" that once was a marriage.

Once they actually do wake up and realize how damaging thier behavior was, it could be too late. My XW is just now at this point. I see her lurking around the edges of my new life. Talking to my mutal friends and trying to stick herself out there for me to see. Not knowing what's going on with my life is driving her nuts. These are the effects of dropping the rope. I only wish it was possible to do this before the divorce so she could have trully seen what it would be like without me and that there are very few men like me out there.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/17/09 12:50 AM
Originally Posted By: Sgfan
If she's anything like my XW, I'm sure much of your wife's rationale is due to the fact that there's a conflict between her selfish urges and repressing the adult. Anytime someone can't reconcile "unacceptable behavior" with what they know is acceptable and mature....they flip out. It's almost a stage they go through when they start to realize that maybe they are making very bad choices and hurting alot of people, even though they may have been neglected in the past.


SG,

Interesting point. I definitely think that my W is doing something in this regard to bolster her decision to push forward with D'ing me. I would have to suspect that some of her friends and/or family members are also "helping" her reconcile her current perspective and behavior as well but to what degree I don't know.

Quote:
Once they actually do wake up and realize how damaging thier behavior was, it could be too late. My XW is just now at this point. I see her lurking around the edges of my new life. Talking to my mutal friends and trying to stick herself out there for me to see. Not knowing what's going on with my life is driving her nuts. These are the effects of dropping the rope. I only wish it was possible to do this before the divorce so she could have trully seen what it would be like without me and that there are very few men like me out there.


I see my sitch heading in the same direction. I understand now that whatever is going on with my W and her current thinking about me and our MR is going to take a LONG time to resolve itself. I think a lot has to do with de-programming- I think that in many respects my W has really self-brainwashed herself- about the OM, about me, about us and our MR. Outside of professional help, I don't believe that there is anything that I can do for my W at this stage. All I can do now is look out for my kids and I and let my W experience the consequences of her actions.
Posted By: dday101798 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/17/09 01:13 PM
Originally Posted By: BigJohn
, I don't believe that there is anything that I can do for my W at this stage.


No there isn't other than letting her go and get a taste of the life she thinks she wants to have.
Posted By: WalkingMan Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/17/09 02:58 PM
Originally Posted By: dday101798

No there isn't other than letting her go and get a taste of the life she thinks she wants to have.


I totally aggree with this. You know the saying about being careful of what you ask for...you might just get it? My XW is finally getting it. Something I just could not give her before the divorce. At this point, I'm already dating someone new, casually mind you. I kow that if the XW knew this she would be very hurt. It's funny, XW left me but she's insanely jealous. Ahhh the cake-eating!
Posted By: dday101798 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/17/09 04:06 PM
Originally Posted By: Sgfan
. I know that if the XW knew this she would be very hurt. It's funny, XW left me but she's insanely jealous. Ahhh the cake-eating!


Ohhh, she'll be furious and all the sudden want to be your bestest friend in the world, I guarentee it. crazy
Posted By: Jman Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/17/09 06:48 PM
Sgfan,
Did u file the divorce or did she push it through?
Posted By: WalkingMan Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/17/09 08:07 PM
Jman, my XW filed back in June and it was done by August 28th.
That was after a year of reading this board and D'bing hard-core.

dday, you are spot on, brother. I think she suspects because I got an email today with all sorts of questions about my life.
Oh well, in 10 years of marriage I never so much as looked at another woman, but I'm free now and I know she could not stand the thought of me seeing another woman.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/18/09 12:07 AM
Quote:
Well, I'm doing good. I think I'm really finally to the point where I have almost completely detached- or is it resignation(?)-


Hummm, well I would think that the resignation would have to come before "true" detachment. As we say here on the board, "It is what it is". A whole lot of detaching the folks on the board do.....is really faking it till they make it. But don't tell them I said that....(lol).
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/18/09 02:58 AM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Quote:
Well, I'm doing good. I think I'm really finally to the point where I have almost completely detached- or is it resignation(?)-


Hummm, well I would think that the resignation would have to come before "true" detachment. As we say here on the board, "It is what it is". A whole lot of detaching the folks on the board do.....is really faking it till they make it. But don't tell them I said that....(lol).


Sandi,

Agreed wink. I think it is a little bit of both right now. My sitch is crazy and I'm just exhausted. I could tell you about the fight she picked with me over custody of the kids tonight but I won't even bother. It's just crazy.

I've come to accept the fact that my W "feels what she feels" and needs to believe and think certain things so everything "tracks" with her feelings. She needs to follow a certain path no matter what the consequences. The kids and I just need to get out of the way, hang on tight and do our best to survive.

Consider the rope dropped!
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/18/09 03:07 AM
((((Big John)))), you are a big man!
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/18/09 03:09 AM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
((((Big John)))), you are a big man!


Thank you Sandi. (((Sandi)))
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/18/09 03:27 AM
Way to take care of yourself, BJ. If you drop the rope she can't pull your strings. I'm so glad you focus on your children - they are precious. do the best by them and you'll be fine.
Posted By: WalkingMan Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/18/09 02:11 PM
BJ, great attitude! I can say first hand that dropping the rope did wonders for me. My XW no longer had power over me; it was liberating. Almost immediately, I felt impowered. I began to get happy again and I found women in general were attracted to this new postive outlook. It became who I am.

I reconnected with my friends and made lots of new ones. I had a new life and I was happy again, while my XW continued in turmoil. Now she's been emailing wanting to know how my life is and missing some of the good things we had.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/19/09 01:56 AM
Hope/SG,

After 6+ months of major turmoil, it is a weird feeling to be where I am. It's like a weight being lifted off my shoulders and I'm feeling more nimble emotionally and intellectually. I'm definitely starting to look at my sitch and my W with a more critical eye. I guess you could say I'm starting to get my game back and it feels pretty damn good.

Thank you for the support and feedback!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/19/09 03:59 AM
I'm proud of you. I'm inspired!
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/19/09 07:41 PM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
I'm proud of you. I'm inspired!


Hope,

Thank you. I just posted you back on your thread. Time for Hope to get her game back too. Have a great weekend!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/20/09 06:20 AM
THanks, BJ. It's been a downer. But head is still above water. Thanks for the post - really helped!
Posted By: iwantittowork Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/21/09 01:33 PM
Hey BJ, question for you that I am struggling with big time.

I am getting so resentful and hurt thinking about how much money I will have to hand over to my W every week, so she can be the single women she want so be.

You are further into this than I am, have you felt the same issues? How are you coping with those? Has the financial picture become clearer as you move along to both the W and you?

It is going to be such a financial burden on me, and she is going to be handed more money from me every week than she has ever even made at a job by herself, that it can't look as anything but a blessing to her.

I keep coming back to this, and struggling mightily.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/22/09 06:31 AM
Originally Posted By: iwantittowork
Hey BJ, question for you that I am struggling with big time.

I am getting so resentful and hurt thinking about how much money I will have to hand over to my W every week, so she can be the single women she want so be.

You are further into this than I am, have you felt the same issues? How are you coping with those? Has the financial picture become clearer as you move along to both the W and you?

It is going to be such a financial burden on me, and she is going to be handed more money from me every week than she has ever even made at a job by herself, that it can't look as anything but a blessing to her.

I keep coming back to this, and struggling mightily.



IWITW,

Actually I'm focused on our kids right now and getting equitable custody- hopefully 50/50. I'm a survivor of D myself so I know what these kids are going to go through and I'm pretty upset about it. I'm thinking at this point that all three kids are going to need some form of counseling plus I've got daycare issues for D3 to deal with, etc. Plus I'm going to try to keep the family home which means refinancing to buy my W out- another headache to deal with. So yes, I've crunched some numbers and preliminarily things don't look real good. I guess you could say that I'm coping right now by taking things one at a time.

Regarding my W and alimony, I'm not 100% sure I'll get hurt real bad here. I actually took a cut in pay and turned my back on advancement opportunities so I could work from home and be here for my family. And because my W is a nurse, she makes good money. So the impact may not be as great as it sounds like in your sitch. Still, I expect to be living within thin financial margins once D'd so every little bit of $ is going to count.

I sympathize with your feelings about your W and her behavior. My W is starting to have to realize the awful truths about D and just really does not want to face them. Right now she is trying to delegate her impending financial problems to me (in terms of her moving out) i.e. "refinance the house now and give me my money" instead of aggressively looking for work. And alternating between walking around like a movie star and moping around saying things like "D really sucks", blah, blah. blah. Blaming me for everything. All the while OM is in the background coaching her and helping my W keep the momentum towards D- getting his jollies - maybe his idea of "happiness"- or both- at the expense of my family. Of course, what I'm really waiting for from my W is the realization that she has (or had) it damn good with me. But at the rate she is going, it looks like it will be some time- AFTER the D- when that light bulb goes off.

I have to tell you, considering the hell and damage my W is going to inflict on this family once this D is over and done with is really helping me to look at her in a very critical light. Her selfishness, complete lack of forgiveness, no personal accountability and overall abandonment of values and decency are getting extremely old. And that is on top of the abuse that she has heaped on me which I am completely done with. So I cope with this aspect of my sitch by realizing that there are a lot of good women out there who would be grateful to be with me. Hopefully you can process your sitch in much the same way.

Hang in there IWITW. I'm pretty confident that our W's behaviors are going to come back to bite them in their respective a$$e$ big time down the road. Conversely, you and I will have some short term pain to deal with for sure but in the long term, we will be the ones who come out on top.

Just remember, this too shall pass.
Posted By: WalkingMan Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/22/09 03:11 PM
I think that a side-effect of getting a life for an LBS, is seeing things a bit clearer. You get a more mature, less partial view of your marriage and see things more how they really were. You see yourself as becomming healthy and independent and thus, impowered. I know in my sitch I felt like I took power back from my XW and she did not like it at all. I remember my XW saying it was not fair how fast I was turning my life around while she was still struggling.

This is a sort of cross-roads where the LBS can actually become a WAS. You no longer need the WAW, but possibly want them or at least the wife they once were. That person is gone and as the LBS, we must decide is the new person your wife is can be the kind of person we wish to be with. For the most part, when a man marries a woman, we wish for them to remain the person we married forever. But this is just not realistic. A marriage must change as the spouses grow and change.

I found through my struggle with the XW, when I stopped reacting to her WAW behavior, the process of me taking power over me back
began.
Posted By: iwantittowork Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/22/09 06:39 PM
SF and BJ, thanks, those are good thoughts, and insights, given the sitch's, looks like you guys are holding up very well!

I want to try and get to where SG is, and take my power back for me, that seems hard for me to do when I look at the financial picture, so looking for ways to stop thinking 'about the money'

BJ, keep it up man, your doing well, I can see in your posts the strength your carrying yourself with, and it's inspirational..
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/23/09 05:36 AM
SG/IWITW,

Thanks for the insight and feedback. We are all here to support one another. I often think to myself that something good must eventually come from all of this grief my family and I are going through. If there is anyone out there that can benefit from what I am going through and how I'm handling it, I think that is great!

Well, my W and I went to mediation today to determine child custody. Won't go into all of the details except to say that the end result was positive- my W, the mediator and I agreed on a schedule for equal joint physical custody (aka 50/50). From the perspective of a survivor of D myself, I felt that this was the best arrangement for our kids and I'm grateful that the mediator came to the same conclusion. My W on the other hand was very upset. After the mediation she would not talk to me and drove off angry (we took separate cars to the mediation). As I felt my W needed space, I chose to run several errands this afternoon before going home. In the midst of running my errands, I received several angry, emotional, somewhat off the wall TMs from my W. As I was headed home, my W TM me saying she was going to hang out at my BIL house (here in town) by herself. When I got home, all three kids were here; my W was not. I've exchanged a few TMs from my W this evening- she is still very angry/emotional. No response from her yet as to when she is coming home tonight- I won't send a second TM asking again. I served dinner, everyone got their homework done, the kids are in bed- everything is under control here- so I'll let her blow off steam and come home when she is ready.

I feel bad that my W is having a rough time of it following mediation today, however my W's issues are hers to deal with and hers alone. She is the only one who can ultimately solve them. I wish her the best and will not do anything to undermine her efforts in that regard. My focus remains the welfare of myself and our three kids. As my W and I move through the D process, the door remains open a crack for R, but she has to be the one to be willing to initiate the first move.
Posted By: dday101798 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/23/09 12:47 PM
I would say the anger and emotion are exemplatory of a temper tantrum since that is a round where W's "master plan" has been foiled.

Just my $.02
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/23/09 07:31 PM
All completely understandable reactions on her part if she's not getting what she wants out of mediation/D. Also, the pent up feelings about the entire MR/D are going to come exploding out as well. My advice is stick to your business and your plans, and give her lots of space to go through her feelings. She'll come around, but you are right - she needs to work through her own grief and pain in her own time and it's not yours to "fix" or make better or soothe - although I'm sure you wish you could at times. Anyone who has been married wants to help their spouse see the other side of pain, but the process of detachment is to not take away or process their feelings for them, however much empathy we might have. It is part of both people's grieving process. It hurts, and we don't know what to do to help the other person, so doing nothing is the best plan. Like Stronger always says "Sit still and Shut your mouth!"
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/24/09 06:07 AM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
All completely understandable reactions on her part if she's not getting what she wants out of mediation/D. Also, the pent up feelings about the entire MR/D are going to come exploding out as well. My advice is stick to your business and your plans, and give her lots of space to go through her feelings.


What was bizarre was she came at me last night accusing me of "trying to screw her out of everything"- this after she kept playing hardball with me before mediation with this 70/30 "custody plan" of hers. Who exactly is trying to "screw" whom here? Then she went off and accused me of being a narcissist and questioning my manhood! Good grief! How quickly she forgets who is having the A here! So yes, the game plan is to stick to my business and let her go through her feelings.

Quote:
Anyone who has been married wants to help their spouse see the other side of pain, but the process of detachment is to not take away or process their feelings for them, however much empathy we might have. It is part of both people's grieving process. It hurts, and we don't know what to do to help the other person, so doing nothing is the best plan.

Like Stronger always says "Sit still and Shut your mouth!"


Well said. And good advice! Thanks Hope.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/24/09 04:04 PM
Originally Posted By: BigJohn


What was bizarre was she came at me last night accusing me of "trying to screw her out of everything"- this after she kept playing hardball with me before mediation with this 70/30 "custody plan" of hers. Who exactly is trying to "screw" whom here? Then she went off and accused me of being a narcissist and questioning my manhood! Good grief! How quickly she forgets who is having the A here! So yes, the game plan is to stick to my business and let her go through her feelings.



May be a good time to just walk away? You know I'm married to the man with the foulest temper and mouth to match - and what I'm learning is that even THEY don't know what they are saying when they are exploding with anger. Of course it wont be rational. It's all anger driven.

You're doing well staying centered, Zen Master! Way to be like water.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/25/09 07:21 AM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
May be a good time to just walk away? You know I'm married to the man with the foulest temper and mouth to match - and what I'm learning is that even THEY don't know what they are saying when they are exploding with anger. Of course it wont be rational. It's all anger driven.

You're doing well staying centered, Zen Master! Way to be like water.


Thanks Hope. You know, you make a good point here. So many of us really don't know what we are always saying (or doing for that matter) to others, especially the ones we love. We get so caught up in the rest of what life throws at us on a daily basis and we just don't always pay attention to the small stuff- the details. It's kind of sad. Looking back, I certainly wish I had been able to establish better communication with my W so I could have been better aware of at least what I was doing wrong in our MR. I wish my W would give me a second chance, but apparently I'm not worthy enough (at least not yet), especially with Mr. Amazing (OM) waiting in the wings. But, that is in the past for now. I just need to stay on point as planned.... and be like water, of course.
Posted By: Jman Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/26/09 02:35 PM
BJ,

It is good to hear that you are doing well maintaining your sit. We are all going into unfamiliar territory with our spouses and it is good that we all can come to a place like this to help each other.

Don't beat yourself up about the communication with your wife. I tried to get my wife to communicate with me prior to all of this mess and it was never a priority with her to attempt to better the R. It takes 2 to make a R work and if both parties don't make it a priority then you can't fault just one. I know we all would like to go back just a short time to fix the wrongs but we can't and we all know that we can only learn from it and move on and hope for the best.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/27/09 04:27 AM
Jman,

Reading your post, you are sounding a lot better, much more grounded. Either that or you must be having a good day... or both! I hope things are going better in your sitch as well. You are right about the forums here, they are a godsend as are the many good people here who offer insight, feedback and encouragement to all of us. Despite our sitchs being some of the darkest hours of our lives, it is encouraging to know that there is still much good in this world.
Posted By: Jman Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/28/09 10:21 PM
Hey BJ,
I am more grounded now and it is due to many things mostly the detachment and I just finished reading Love must be Tough...Man that book hits the nail right on the head...I wish I would have had that book back in March bc I think my sit would have been different now but I am still going to use the principles of that book..It is amazing and I highly recommend everyone that has similar issues with infidelity of their spouse to read it It is worth its weight in Gold by far....

My sit has not changed to much..I have keeping myself very busy between working extra hours and going out with Buddies...with all the while she is staying home with the kids...I am definitely seeing things more clearly now and noticing all the details and can only hope things change but I have to do what is best for me and the kids so we shall see...No more doormat for me...

Until next time
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/28/09 11:20 PM
Hi BJ, just wanted to stick my head in and let you know that I've not forgotten about you. How are you holding up?
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/29/09 12:22 AM
Jman,

Glad to hear you are doing well. I'm still working my way through "Love Must Be Tough" and I agree with you completely, I wish I had read it sooner. Definitely a good book. But as with everything else, I can't beat myself up over what I might have done differently, what is done is done. The fact of the matter is that I'm dealing with something that I've never dealt with before so with a lack of experience mistakes will be made. But that is how we learn in the first place- by making mistakes. Fortunately, a mistake I have not made is not taking the high road in my dealings with my W up to this point. Regardless of how she wants to interpret how I've responded to our sitch, I am glad that I haven't compromised my standards- and lowered myself to her present standards in the process.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/29/09 12:46 AM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Hi BJ, just wanted to stick my head in and let you know that I've not forgotten about you. How are you holding up?


Hey Sandi! I'm doing well. I'm still dealing with the usual crap from my W but her attitude and behaviors are starting to have a diminished effect on me. Even when she called me a "narcissist" and questioned my manhood for wanting 50% custody of our kids following mediation last week- it pi$$ed me off, but only for a little while. It's just so ridiculous- and pathetic. I think she really just needs to go away right now- move out on her own- and find a very quiet place where she can think- or rather "feel"- her way through this big fat mess that she has perpetrated.

BTW, I see you found my new thread under Newcomers. I set that one up to draw some advice from Gucci & Co re: tough love. Its a good thread and seems to be helping other people. So I'm posting on both threads right now and keeping the redundancy to a minimum. BTW, I posed a question to you on that thread the other day, not sure if you had a chance yet to respond or not.

I know how busy you are, so thanks for checking in on me. Talk to you soon.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/29/09 02:56 PM
Okay, I'll go check it out.

Glad you are holding up. You are a strong man, BJ. I admire how you have not fell into the trap a lot of men do when their WAW's put them through this stuff, and they get so...."trashy" with their behavior. It is hard not to repay her terrible ways with a dose of her own medicince......and I probably would! But, I'm glad you are the person your are Big John, and I really admire how you have maintained your dignity.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/29/09 03:29 PM
Quote:
BTW, I posed a question to you on that thread the other day, not sure if you had a chance yet to respond or not.


Not sure what the question is. Couldn't find it. Would you mind repeating it? Thanks
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/30/09 12:41 AM
Sandi,

I had originally posted this under my other thread in Newcomers "Hey Gucci,(et al)":

Originally Posted By: BigJohn
Originally Posted By: sandi2
One thing I want to clear about the "nice guy". Seems like I've been talking about this on different threads lately, but being a nice guy is not what I'm referring to as the opposite of being a cad. In other words, so many LBH's say that they can't allow their WAW to suffer the consequenses of her actions b/c he is a "nice guy". So, she continues to walk all over him! She doesn't want a nice guy....she wants a man who will stand up to her and call her on her BS. She wants a man who will not put up with her acting like a b*tch. If a H puts up with her b/c he's a "nice guy"....then she will wipe her feet all over him and she will not respect him.


Sandi,

Your post above got me thinking that I should clarify what I said previously about the "nice guy" approach. Anyone following my sitch can see that I was probably a little too much of an "understanding" type of nice guy with my W for far too long before I put my boot down. What I'm largely doing now is being reserved, neutral, firm and polite to my W in the few interactions we are having at the moment. In other words, what I am NOT doing is being rude, hostile or demonstrating any kind of "attitude" towards my W. So from that standpoint- and given the history of what has transpired in my sitch- I still consider myself to some degree as being a "nice guy", but just one who isn't taking any $h*t from my W anymore.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/30/09 01:24 AM
Yes, I saw that. I just didn't see a question. I thought you explained yourself very well.....(lol). The truth is, I did not have you in mind, at all, when I said what I did in my post on that thread. I "should" have--since it was your thread, but I was actually thinking of another member who I had just talked with and it was after your post that it hit me--that was your thread I said all of that. I typed a post to point out that I was talking in general and then deleted it, thinking at the time it might be best if I didn't say anything more. Maybe I was wrong. I really hope that I did not offend you b/c I think you know I would tell you whatever I thought, right? Even though I may think your WAW should have her butt kicked, I have never seen you being weak in any way. I do see you as a nice man, but I mean that in a nice way......lol. (You know I'm crzay about ya, BJ!)

Seriously, I sure did not mean to sound like I was throwing off on you when I said what I did about "nice guys". But if there was something I missed that you were wanting me to see, tell me what it is, okay? Sometimes I have to have a picture drawn.
Posted By: Jman Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/30/09 01:26 AM
It has been interesting these past few days she has been nice, cordial and actually gave me a compliment today about my cooking something she has not done in a very long time. She does not seem as uncomfortable with changing in front of me in the last few days too. I am trying so hard to remain detached and follow the info in the love must be tough book it seems to be so relevant to my sit. I can only hope that it is never to late no matter how far u have messed up or come along on this journey. I am taking it just one day at a time and remaining focused on me and the kiddos.
Deep down I want to still love on my wife and make Love to her but I am very hurt that idk if that happened what would happen to me if I would cave or not. It is confusing to me now too I think bc of the hurt.
An interesting thing is the kids are so clingy on me when she is around it is a great feeling not bc of being mean to her but the love I get from them it is unconditional and it is showing in front of her, so idk if that has an impact or not in her current state of mind. Well we are in the same room at the moment watching tv and that is an improvement to our sit also.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/30/09 02:31 AM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Yes, I saw that. I just didn't see a question. I thought you explained yourself very well.....(lol). The truth is, I did not have you in mind, at all, when I said what I did in my post on that thread. I "should" have--since it was your thread, but I was actually thinking of another member who I had just talked with and it was after your post that it hit me--that was your thread I said all of that. I typed a post to point out that I was talking in general and then deleted it, thinking at the time it might be best if I didn't say anything more. Maybe I was wrong. I really hope that I did not offend you b/c I think you know I would tell you whatever I thought, right? Even though I may think your WAW should have her butt kicked, I have never seen you being weak in any way. I do see you as a nice man, but I mean that in a nice way......lol. (You know I'm crzay about ya, BJ!)

Seriously, I sure did not mean to sound like I was throwing off on you when I said what I did about "nice guys". But if there was something I missed that you were wanting me to see, tell me what it is, okay? Sometimes I have to have a picture drawn.


Sandi,

No problem! I took no offense to the prior post, it just got me thinking about things with my sitch and how I'm changing up how I interact with my W these days. Although I'm not second guessing my initial approach to my sitch, I have been feeling lately like I might have been a little slow in changing over to more of the tough love approach. Definitely what my W needs right now, for sure.

Anyways, thanks for checking in on me Sandi. wink
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/30/09 02:38 AM
Originally Posted By: Jman
An interesting thing is the kids are so clingy on me when she is around it is a great feeling not bc of being mean to her but the love I get from them it is unconditional and it is showing in front of her, so idk if that has an impact or not in her current state of mind. Well we are in the same room at the moment watching tv and that is an improvement to our sit also.


Jman,

That kind of interaction between you and your kids can only help your sitch, even if a little bit. I suspect that when my W sees this same type of interaction between our kids and I, she has to question- even if a little bit- what it is she is doing... even if her conscience doesn't seem to be fully functional at the moment.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/30/09 05:58 AM
Originally Posted By: BigJohn

I suspect that when my W sees this same type of interaction between our kids and I, she has to question- even if a little bit- what it is she is doing... even if her conscience doesn't seem to be fully functional at the moment.



Agreed! Has she calmed down yet? I hope so, then, she hopefully will see that this is not about what is best for her, but best for her children and that means children need to be as much of a part of both parents lives as possible so stay calm and like water. wink
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 09/30/09 11:37 PM
BJ, I think you are about the only one around the board I've talked with at length and not really get a hard 2X4 and use it once or twice. So.....maybe I was too soft with ya?

In all seriousness, it still grieves me to know how much pain you have suffered and to see your W throw so much out the window!! Isn't it tragic that a man has to reach that place that your W has finally pushed you.....before he realizes that she just won't see what she has and she continues to stubbornly reach for what she shouldn't want. (I hope that sounded the way I meant it.) Last night was one of those times that I cried when I would read about the heartache from the people here on the board. There is so much of it in our world right now--and it could be avoided if people appreciated the ones God gave to love them.

I don't know much to say tonight, other than to keep telling you that I am still supporting you and want the very best for you. I know you feel that your W has kicked you in the teeth.....but in all of that, you still seem to stand very tall. In her cruel attempts to cut you down to size (so to speak), don't let her whittle away at your self-esteem. She is only trying to see how far she can make you fall b/c of her own dark heart right now. You keep being the big man you are and be patient b/c you will have the love you deserve some day. If that is not your W, then she will realize too late how she once had everything and then she became such a loser.

Take care.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 10/01/09 02:12 AM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
BJ, I think you are about the only one around the board I've talked with at length and not really get a hard 2X4 and use it once or twice. So.....maybe I was too soft with ya?


Well if I haven't gotten some of the things you've tried to pound into my head by now I certainly do deserve a 2 x 4 upside the head! smile

Quote:
In all seriousness, it still grieves me to know how much pain you have suffered and to see your W throw so much out the window!! Isn't it tragic that a man has to reach that place that your W has finally pushed you.....before he realizes that she just won't see what she has and she continues to stubbornly reach for what she shouldn't want. (I hope that sounded the way I meant it.) Last night was one of those times that I cried when I would read about the heartache from the people here on the board. There is so much of it in our world right now--and it could be avoided if people appreciated the ones God gave to love them.


I'm with you. It is very sad. I would add that if only the WASs could only know that we could never go back to the way things were before, make the same mistakes as before- and learn themselves to forgive.

Quote:
I don't know much to say tonight, other than to keep telling you that I am still supporting you and want the very best for you. I know you feel that your W has kicked you in the teeth.....but in all of that, you still seem to stand very tall. In her cruel attempts to cut you down to size (so to speak), don't let her whittle away at your self-esteem. She is only trying to see how far she can make you fall b/c of her own dark heart right now. You keep being the big man you are and be patient b/c you will have the love you deserve some day. If that is not your W, then she will realize too late how she once had everything and then she became such a loser.


I recognize this and of course she needs to continue to justify her actions. With the exception of through our children, her ability to hurt me now is severely diminished. Time for the tough love approach now.

Thanks for the support and feedback Sandi, I really appreciate it. (((Sandi)))
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 10/03/09 12:26 AM
bump
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 10/03/09 04:35 AM
Originally Posted By: BigJohn
Although I'm not second guessing my initial approach to my sitch, I have been feeling lately like I might have been a little slow in changing over to more of the tough love approach. Definitely what my W needs right now, for sure.



Hey, maybe I should check out this tough love book? What's the name? Is it geared just toward men, or also women?

I'm glad you are not second guessing your original stance toward W. I completely agree that you are thrown into a sitch you have never dealt with before so you can only go forward in trying new approaches. NEver judge yourself for not knowing early on what else can be done. We as humans are just not built that way. We continue down the same old roads in hope of finding a new end. Only when we come to the same end many times do we consider a new road. The unknown is scary, and we need to tread slowly and carefully with lots of support. And that's why we're here for each other - to help light the way toward new paths and stick by each other as we try a variety and find one that ultimately works. It takes time. Lots of time. I'm not a patient woman. But I see you and all the friends on this forum trying their new paths and making changes. If we can't stop what didn't work in the past and try anew, how can we have a new life - and a new self - and ultimately a new marriage.

Enough of my preaching for tonight smile
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 10/03/09 05:31 AM
Hope,

The book is "Love Must Be Tough" by James Dobson. It's a good book, I haven't finished reading it but have liked everything I have read thus far.

I don't mind the "preaching" at all. Thanks for stopping by tonight.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 10/03/09 01:20 PM
Hi Hope, I recommend "Love Must Be Tough" and it is not geared for one particular gender. I think that women & men alike should read this. As I recall, some people in the so-called Christian communities were shocked at what Dr. Dobson was saying b/c they had been taught that as a Christian they should continue to live with the S, put up with whatever treatment the S dished out, etc. They were taught that that was "unconditional love". Dr. Dobson did an excellent job at explaining what kind of love is needed.....and necessary in certain cases. I think you would enjoy it.

Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 10/03/09 05:41 PM

Thanks, friends. I found an online series of quick articles by the same author - probably outlining the ideas in his book. Might want to give them a read - I found them quite helpful and in line wiht DB principals
http://www.focusonthefamily.com/marriage/divorce_and_infidelity/love_must_be_tough.aspx
Posted By: Jman Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 10/04/09 01:52 AM
Hey BJ,
Is your wife still wearing her wedding rings? IdK being that we r in seperate rooms if I should take them from her and tell her she needs to earn them back?
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 10/04/09 02:22 AM
Originally Posted By: Jman
Hey BJ,
Is your wife still wearing her wedding rings? IdK being that we r in seperate rooms if I should take them from her and tell her she needs to earn them back?


Jman,

Good to hear from you. Funny you should ask about my W's ring- she actually stopped wearing it right after mediation last week. BTW, just got a copy of the mediator's report from my L- the recommendation is 50/50 joint legal and physical custody, so very pleased about that. Got to run for now. How are you doing?
Posted By: Jman Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 10/04/09 03:51 AM
That is great to hear about your sit. You sound excited by the way u posted and it is to be expected. This is another item that your W thought she would hurt u with and it has worked in ur favor. Keep the faith Brother.
Well my sit has not changed either way I am using the Love must be tough principles on the W. She still is acting like nothing is her fault even though she admitted to cheating on me. I spoke with my IC the other day and it was good to get some things off my chest to her. Just like Sandi mentioned in the earlier posts it is just crazy and frustrating the WAW mentality. So I just continue to focus on the kids and myself. I want to tell her parents so bad but I know there will be no good to come out of it so here I am just waiting. Things are not uncomfortable while the kids are awake but once they go to bed she turns into someone else just trying to avoid me like the plague. Oh well her loss. I am working out and eating healthy. I am down to my lowest weight since high school and everyone is noticing and giving me kudos for the way I look but bottom line I love myself and continue to work on trying to get the abs I never had. Just a small goal of mine is all.

Until next time
Posted By: iwantittowork Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 10/04/09 02:00 PM
Hey BJ, and anyone else that is around, sorry to threadjack, but I need help if you can provide it.

I am going to mediation tomorrow, and it's clear I don't have the tough love 'gene' so to speak.

Can you stop by my thread and offer advice on where to hold the line, and where to budge on things? I would really appreciate your insights, as you are ahead of where I am at currently..
Posted By: Laurie Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 10/04/09 07:07 PM
Sorry to sneak in on your BJ post, but what are your specific R goals these next few weeks? Will taking her rings from her and telling her she needs to earn them back contribute to those goals?

Just wondering Jman....

:)Laurie
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 10/05/09 03:30 AM
Originally Posted By: BigJohn
BTW, just got a copy of the mediator's report from my L- the recommendation is 50/50 joint legal and physical custody, so very pleased about that. Got to run for now. How are you doing?


REally happy for you and your kids, BJ. I know this must be a huge relief and very well deserved. How is the W taking it?
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 10/05/09 04:35 AM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
Originally Posted By: BigJohn
BTW, just got a copy of the mediator's report from my L- the recommendation is 50/50 joint legal and physical custody, so very pleased about that. Got to run for now. How are you doing?


REally happy for you and your kids, BJ. I know this must be a huge relief and very well deserved. How is the W taking it?


Hope,

My W did not take it well at first- she said several very nasty things to me, told me I would fail, kids would be miserable etc. but things have settled down a little bit since then. I don't know at this point if she will try to challenge the mediator's recommendation or not- I would hope not.

So, for the moment, I am relieved and feel that it makes the most sense for our kids. My W does not understand my feelings about the physical custody issue with the kids and may never- or at least not for a while. That is OK- I'm a survivor of D as a kid, she is not, and I understand the importance of having both parents sharing co-parenting duties.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 10/06/09 06:19 AM
I'm really happy for you and for your kids. And yes, she does not understand your feelings. FOr now. This too shall pass. Stay positive - you got the best answer you could have from the courts and she can just go have a tantrum about it - but it won't change. She has her own reasons for wanting more custody and she may be hurting too - not a good position for her to see things through your eyes. Give her space to process her feelings on her own and see if she can't come around to seeing from another perspective later down the line. Hang in there!
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 10/07/09 06:44 AM
Hope,

My thoughts exactly. Thank you for the words of encouragement.

Take care.
Posted By: Jman Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 10/11/09 06:50 PM
Why does the wife make my bed where she does not sleep in? She has not been sleeping in the spare room either only on the couch. What does this mean she only knows bc she won't tell me anything and I am not about to ask. But then today she can so cold to me by the way of avoiding me,not interested in taking care of things at the house. Etc. I came up behind her today and kissed the side of her neck w no reaction I have been coming home late from work and kisssing her on the cheek when she is on the couch bc I really think affection is going to win her back but slowly of course. It seems certain days things r good and others she only cares about facebook and solitaire on her BB.

Until next time
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 10/12/09 06:15 AM
Jman,

Sorry I can't offer any insight as to why your W is doing what she is doing. Hope things are going better for you.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 10/12/09 06:43 AM
Originally Posted By: Jman
She still is acting like nothing is her fault even though she admitted to cheating on me.

Just like Sandi mentioned in the earlier posts it is just crazy and frustrating the WAW mentality.

Things are not uncomfortable while the kids are awake but once they go to bed she turns into someone else just trying to avoid me like the plague.


Sorry to hijack - but Jman, just saying you're not alone. I don't have much advice, I just want to say HANG IN THERE. I call my H "Dr. Jekyl and MR. Hyde." And, I"m constantly to blame for everything. The other night, my H actually said to me that he didn't want to be in the same house with me, even if I was on the other side, in another room with the door shut, because my mere presence irritates him. Really? That's supposed to be my fault? Sheesh.
Posted By: Jman Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 10/12/09 08:05 AM
Thanks everyone,
I am doing ok for me and the kids the W its another story of course. She told me tonight that she is miserable and has been for several years and stressed and that the only reasons she has not left is bc of the kids and finances. So I said u need me here for the money and she said no so I said I told u that u can leave then and go be with the other man. She told me that was not it either. She said she was not going to be codependent of me anymore. That's funny bc she was driving her truck with no oil in it until I did an oil change and added oil to it yesterday. But she thinks she is a big girl and does not need me anymore. What BS!! Oh. I asked her that do u think u can have another relationship wo the probs we have and she said that she is not naïve that she knows she will have probs like this in another R. Wow am I missing something here she is making so much sense to justify wanting to leave me. She just has it so bad even though I still have the majority of the resp around the house with the kids, dog, house, finances etc. But she is the one miserable and stressed!!??

I reiterated to her again that I was not going to file for D and that our probs are not uncommon for what is going on in Marriages and that if we gave 100% to MC it is issues that we can work through and left it at that.

Can someone answer this question for me? What is a marriage and is there marriages that are not co dependent? Am I missing something here??? I thought marriages are codependent on some level due to vows, having children, sharing resp with one another amongst everything else life throws at u?
I must have a real twisted version of what M is suppose to be then and that is what led to my demise??

I am up this late due to the W forgetting to put a sleep diaper on My D and I am washing sheets and blankets and clothes waiting for them to dry to give her a clean blanket. She has a special blankie she sleeps with and I waiting just for that I have changed everything else. I went in the spare room and said our D was put to bed with no Diaper on and left it at that and walked away. Well the dryer is done and I am going to try to get a few more hrs sleep before going to work at the FD. I guess this is just like a call in the middle of the night so.

Until next time
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 10/13/09 06:40 AM
Originally Posted By: Jman
She told me tonight that she is miserable and has been for several years and stressed and that the only reasons she has not left is bc of the kids and finances.


Jman,

As you know, my W has it equally horrible. She has had such a tough life, well it's just sad. She has it so bad that I recently had a friend ask me about my W: "Do we have a substance abuse issue here (with my W)?"

Quote:
I asked her that do u think u can have another relationship wo the probs we have and she said that she is not naïve that she knows she will have probs like this in another R. Wow am I missing something here she is making so much sense to justify wanting to leave me. She just has it so bad even though I still have the majority of the resp around the house with the kids, dog, house, finances etc. But she is the one miserable and stressed!!??


My W has something similar about "having to watch out for her issues" in her next R. Uh, wouldn't it be better to work on yourself now in the context of your MR to save yourself from making the same mistakes twice? Apparently not.

Funny you should mention your W being the one miserable when you are shouldering the majority of the not so fun "work" around the house. I was talking to my mom the other day when she made a similar observation about my MR in that I did the majority of the "dirty work"/work while my W did the majority of the "fun stuff". She said it was amazing that my W would have the audacity to bitch and moan about me always working and doing things to keep the household up and running and not make the connection in the disparity between who is having "fun" vs. who is doing the dirty work.

This is one of the benefits I'm finding in detaching- I am really starting to see my MR with my W more clearly- and it's really starting to piss me off. In many ways, my W has taken advantage of me and now she has the audacity to cheat on me, complain, act as though I can do no right, etc. Unbelievable.

Quote:
Can someone answer this question for me? What is a marriage and is there marriages that are not co dependent? Am I missing something here??? I thought marriages are codependent on some level due to vows, having children, sharing resp with one another amongst everything else life throws at u?


Agreed. I don't think you are missing anything here.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 10/13/09 06:48 AM
BJ, and JMan, remember boundaries. (Isn't that why you started the Robx and Coach thread in the first place, BJ?) The Spouses need boundaries and limits. Do you think it's true they don't do their part? If so, they need to appreciate you more. IF they are doing a lot of work around the house that you don't recognize, however, then appreciate them.

If you are holding up more of the dirty work - what can you start refusing to do so that your W will HAVE to pick up the slack? I wouldn't even say a word. Just see if she has the maturity to do it. Of course with babies you can't let stuff go, but...It's a way to force her hand into doing more work around the house.
Posted By: dday101798 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 10/13/09 03:57 PM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
If you are holding up more of the dirty work - what can you start refusing to do so that your W will HAVE to pick up the slack? I wouldn't even say a word. Just see if she has the maturity to do it. Of course with babies you can't let stuff go, but...It's a way to force her hand into doing more work around the house.


That coming from a woman I find intruiging. The less I did in attempt to utilize a similar approach did nothing more than force my XW further out the door and further reason to insult me as "lazy" as she "didn't want to sit around in a dirty house". (When in all reality the bulk of the mess was from her and her "friends", and their children hanging out before I'd get home so they could take off for the night).
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 10/13/09 08:13 PM
Well I suppose it depends on what the original complaints were from your wives. If "you never do anything around the house" was a complaint, yeah, she probably wont appreciate you doing less. But if you feel like you are doing way more in some area - housecleaning, bill paying, etc, and I think BJ has said she needs to move out and get a job - then I'd say force her hand in that dept.

In other words - don't tell her, just somehow make it certain that she needs to do this - whether through the D or whatever. If you are doing more housework, leave it. Whatever it is, money, or housework, or whatever, if she needs to do more, make a situation where you are refusing to take care of that dept and do it.

I speak from experience on the other side. My H wanted me to stop doing theatre for a year. I refused - it was a big argument. Then he moved out and started going out the nights I had rehearsals. I had to find babysitters and I found I wasn't comfortable with my S being with bbsitters so often. So I stopped theatre to be with S.

It was my decision, rather than a fight with H. I dealt with the reality of not having that person at home that I used to. I did what I had to do. I'm saying something like this would empower you greatly.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 10/14/09 01:36 AM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
If you are holding up more of the dirty work - what can you start refusing to do so that your W will HAVE to pick up the slack? I wouldn't even say a word. Just see if she has the maturity to do it. Of course with babies you can't let stuff go, but...It's a way to force her hand into doing more work around the house.


Hope,

I have cut back on some of the things I've kept on top with in the past but doing so has produced mixed results. For example, I can only let the laundry go so long before it needs to get done. Sometimes my W will be proactive and start the weekly laundry and sometimes she won't. At this point I'm just picking and choosing my battles as my W and I seem to exist on two different planes of reality. crazy Frankly I'm beyond playing games with my W at this point, I just want her the hell out of the house so I can gain better control over the situation. Wish I could be more chipper about things but as I mentioned in a previous post somewhere I am really starting to see the "big picture" with my W and I've had it with being used and abused. This is the clarity that comes with detachment.

Thank for the feedback Hope. As always, I appreciate your concern and interest in my sitch.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 10/14/09 04:25 AM
How about doing your own laundry and enough to keep your kids clothed - let her do the rest?

Anyhow, I can't believe you guys have filed for D but live in the same house. She needs her own place. How about leaving until she gets her own place?
Posted By: MrBond Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 10/14/09 08:17 AM
No! Never leave your home. If the WAS is that miserable, they can leave. Don't ever leave your house or you may find the locks changed the next day and your stuff in the street.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 10/14/09 08:56 AM
Hope,

Leaving my home was never an option for me. Besides the principle of the matter, I plan on holding on to this home- which I've invested many blood and tears on- for my kids. My W could care less about this place- it is as old and undesirable to her as her washed up H (me)- although I am far from looking "old" and being washed up!

I couldn't agree more with my W needing her own place. But with everything else, it appears it is going to be me that will have to get the money via refinancing for my W to do so. I have some people working on that very issue for me as we speak and so far the news is promising.

Well, looks like the warm milk is doing it's job- back to bed for me. Talk to you soon.
Posted By: Jman Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 10/14/09 12:57 PM
Stuck is so right if the WAS is so miserable they should be the one to leave. My W told me the only reason she has not left is bc of the kids and finances so I asked her if she needs me for a paycheck and she said no. HUH??am I missing something here? The WAW mentality. I told her again she is free to leave. Last night she had the audacity to ask me to take a vacation day on Sunday so that she can get away for 4 days to her hometown that her parents bought a plane ticket for her to go I said no I will make daycare arrangements so I got my parents to watch them when I work on sunday. She says she has to get away. Oh is me that she has it so bad with me now and throughoiut the years I am so ready to file and drop it on her and move on.
Posted By: iwantittowork Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 10/14/09 03:10 PM
Quote:
I couldn't agree more with my W needing her own place. But with everything else, it appears it is going to be me that will have to get the money via refinancing for my W to do so. I have some people working on that very issue for me as we speak and so far the news is promising.


I don't know how you do it BJ, I am getting more and more anxious being at home these last few days, as WAW conducts herself as a single woman in the home that I have financed.

I have been reading your updates and Jman's, and find it interesting that WAW's think we do nothing around the home, or to help with the family. I started looking objectively at it lately, and I just don't see it. I felt guilty for not being around enough to help, but then I started compiling a list in my mind, of things I am responsible for and do in the home, and care for it, and vehicles, etc, etc. I don't discount what my WAW does for the family, but to say the list looks lopsided would be an understatment.

Ironically though, now that she thinks of herself as 'single' she spends more time cleaning up the house, and while I was away had people or persons over to the house for dinner/party or something.

Anyways, I think your WAW's are 'cake eating' a bit, as I believe mine is by stalling, and or not leaving, but how can you force them out? So far as I know you can't.

I am taking the initiative by leaving myself, but making her responsible for the household bills, but who knows how that will work out, but it's a decision based on what I feel is best for me, not what WAW is doing, and I think you guys are doing the same, although I need to catchup on JMans sitch..
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 10/14/09 04:11 PM
Originally Posted By: iwantittowork
I have been reading your updates and Jman's, and find it interesting that WAW's think we do nothing around the home, or to help with the family. I started looking objectively at it lately, and I just don't see it. I felt guilty for not being around enough to help, but then I started compiling a list in my mind, of things I am responsible for and do in the home, and care for it, and vehicles, etc, etc. I don't discount what my WAW does for the family, but to say the list looks lopsided would be an understatment.


IWITW,

You hit the nail on the head here. I am very big on personal accountability and have done the exact same thing you have as noted above and I came to the same conclusion. You should have seen the TMs I was getting from my W following mediation- wacky stuff about never doing ANYTHING for my family, I am a "narcissist", blah blah blah. It just couldn't be further from the truth. As I have mentioned in previous posts, my W has had to put in tremendous effort to demonize me to justify her A while at the same time make OM look like The Perfect Man. I think I have tried everything to win my W back, she hasn't changed a bit, is completely emotionally detached from me at this point and as such is acting completely heartless about the screw job she is perpetrating on me and the kids. Now that I have detached from her, I've gained a new perspective and have seen where this person has really taken advantage of me in many ways over the years. The fact that she has the gall to be complaining about what few things I haven't done consistently in the recent past (even she admits that she can count them all on one hand)as a basis for her A and the D just underscores the fact that she has no idea how good she has had it or the kind of guy she has for a H.

So now I'm done with her and her $h*tty attitude. I'll try to protect the kids and survive financially as best I can without her. She can go chase that POS OM half way around the globe for all I care. I happen to be an outstanding catch and I'm not saying that to brag or as a pump up. There are a lot of women who would love to have a guy like me and once I'm done grieving the loss of my M and stabilize mine and my kids sitch, I'm going to explore other opportunities with quality women.

My point is, there is a silver lining to our sitchs guys. Either your M is going to survive the sitch and you and your W are going to come out of it with a stronger, better M or you are not. If the M doesn't survive, other better opportunities will present themselves in the future. Sometimes crap like this happens for a reason and it isn't always the worst thing that could happen to you. I'm looking at my sitch right now and thinking to myself that fortunately I'm still a relatively young man (41) who still has time to rebuild and recover emotionally and financially from a D. What if my W had pulled this $h*t when I was 60? This is the benefit of detaching- it helps you see the big picture much more clearly.

Got to run. Have a good day and I'll talk to you guys later.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 10/14/09 10:47 PM
I don't see how your wives can see themselves as single when they are living under the same roofs as you guys. That galls me. Especially when I am sitting in an empty house, wishing I had my H back to share it with through thick and thin as we vowed.

They absolutely are not single if they are living in the same house as you, or not D. I know you are here because you want to save your marriages, but why not fight it in court for them to have to get a job to be able to afford their independent lives?

It just upsets me to much to see women cake eating like this off of good men who are trying to hold their marriages together. If they want out, they need to take the steps to do so - get their own places and finance it themselves. Grrrr!
Posted By: MrBond Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 10/15/09 12:27 AM
I think it was sandi who once told me that the thoughts of the WAS are such that they are "checked out" emotionally and mentally, if not physically.

Rather than thinking about what and how they are going to react or think, the LBS has to see what to do in the current conditions.

Many of them really don't consider themselves as cake eating. They just doing what is best for themselves. Kind of like a teenager sponging off their parents.
Posted By: dday101798 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 10/15/09 12:55 AM
I'm sorry, but that I simply did not tolerate that. When she said she wanted him, it was good bye, sianara, make sure the door hits you in the arse on the way out. If I hadn't, lord knows where my sanity would reside today. crazy
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 10/17/09 01:51 AM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
I don't see how your wives can see themselves as single when they are living under the same roofs as you guys. That galls me. Especially when I am sitting in an empty house, wishing I had my H back to share it with through thick and thin as we vowed.


This is something that pi$$es me off too. It's easy to be a fair weather spouse but as soon as we hit our first "rough patch"- like all Ms are bound to do- my W decides it's time to trade me in like an old used car for rotten b*$tard OM. So much for my W having my back through good times and bad. I'm pretty sure I can do better- a lot better.

Quote:
They absolutely are not single if they are living in the same house as you, or not D. I know you are here because you want to save your marriages, but why not fight it in court for them to have to get a job to be able to afford their independent lives?


Hear in California, the Court can and will absolutely compel your spouse to obtain full-time employment to support themselves. This is heartening for men in similar situations to my own in that my W will not be sitting on her a$$ eating bonbons living off of obscene alimony payments while I slave away for the rest of my life. Along with the child custody situation, this was another rude surprise for my W who originally envisioned I'd get an East Coast Style screw job in the courts here. Turns out that in California equal rights for men is a good thing. smile
Posted By: iwantittowork Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 10/17/09 10:51 PM
BJ, sounds like your in good shape. Legally, how long are from some kind of resolution?

My L has suggested that MA court may say to waw to get a job too, or they can use something called 'atribution of income' in deciding payments. Ased on what she 'should' be making full time if she decides not too.

This is still grey area though, and probably depends on what judge you get, and how the L do.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 10/18/09 04:56 PM
Originally Posted By: iwantittowork
BJ, sounds like your in good shape. Legally, how long are from some kind of resolution?


IWITW,

My W and I have agreed to child custody, move-out order (her), gainful employment (her) and stay away order (originally singled out OM only but I conceded on language making it unilteral) all out of court. So far so good. Trying to keep things out of court as best I can to keep costs and aggravation down as much as possible. Right now I'm trying to refinance my house to get my W her share of the equity. If I can pull off the refi I will be a happy camper.
Posted By: Jman Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 10/25/09 01:46 PM
Hey BJ,

Just wanted to check in how are things going with your sit?
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 10/26/09 07:46 AM
Originally Posted By: Jman
Hey BJ,

Just wanted to check in how are things going with your sit?



Hey Jman,

Well, right now I'm working on trying to pull off a refi on my mortgage to try and save the house. I've obtained some preliminary numbers from a mortgage broker and I have a realtor coming over this week to write up a market analysis on my home. If I can pull off this refi, I'm going to really be happy for me and the kids. As for my W, she is still sitting on her a$$, not really looking for work and STILL talking to this jacka$$ OM. I swear my W acts like a damn crackhead when it comes to OM and he is just such a POS. What a nut. crazy I just want her out of the house so she can detoxify/rehab at someone else's expense- like her own!! Damn, I can't tell you how done I am carrying 100% of the load around here while she plays around online with OM.

But enough about me. How you been? Any positive development in your sitch lately?
Posted By: Jman Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 10/30/09 04:15 AM
Man..I tell yeah what is wrong with these people..I guess seperation and divorce is the only way to possibly wake them up because they are so snowed its so rediculous...

So anyway I have been waiting to post something due to wife acting good for a few days but most of the time she is just shut down and cold to me...IDK what her problem is and now she acts short tempered with everything including the kids she does not say hi to them just tells them to do things when she has not seen them for 8 hours when she gets home from work..She is not eating any dinner that I cook IDK if she eats at all except at work...She has turned into a grouch around the house and always expecting things...this is totally uncharacteristic of her former self..she was so laid back and now she seems very tense all the time...It could possibly be because she is taking on more responsibility around the house and the fact that she is being forced transferred out of her location where her days off are changing and work hours...But the most important thing is that the OM she was working with is moving to another location too...Only those two were moved out of her area...Isn't that a b----? or Karma or I consider it from prayers...

She is such a sour puss and negative about everything and I am about to confront her about her behavior towards the children I will not put up with her talking to them in a negative fashion when they have not done anything...Today she did not wear her wedding rings to work and I think she hasn't been wearing them when I am at the station...Hey it is fine by me they are worth alot of money if she don't want to wear them I will keep them...But she still will not file she said she has not left because of the kids and finances but she is the one who is miserable...I have taken care of her for 10 years and she is miserable? She has taken advantage of me is the way I look at it and she is so ungrateful...She has put on her facebook about bloodwork she had done and she possibly has a thyroid problem now and I asked her tonight about it and she said she did not know anything about her bloodwork..I told her that she knew and that no matter what I still care about her...she never responded back with the Instant message after my comment to her...

We are suppose to go to her family's house in another state for Thanksgiving and the kids have mentioned that they want to go...that subject has not been brought up yet except earlier in the month she said we were broke and we could not go I told her there was a way if we budgeted for the next month there was a way but she did not say anything after that too...Nothing but negativity...IDk if I would want to go even though her parents are loving towards me I would feel uncomfortable...

I am going to wait until the beginning of December to initiate relationship talk with her and go from there...She will not initiate relationship talk with me she has always suppressed her feelings inside and this is something that has gone on since she was a kid so it is nothing that I can do she is the only one that can do something about it if she wants too..It is up to her and I have to leave it at that..

Also I signed up for Michelles and the Stronger families live with Jeff Kemp on the internet coming up Nov 4 and Nov 12..
Maybe there is something there that can help me I can only hope and stay positive about it..
Until next time
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 10/31/09 03:20 AM
Quote:
Damn, I can't tell you how done I am carrying 100% of the load around here while she plays around online with OM.


Bet you never thought you would feel this way, did you? I hate that you have to endure her under your roof. Hope you get your own space soon, then you can at least find some peace and not put up with her. Are you getting out and finding a social life?
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 10/31/09 05:29 AM
Hey Sandi,

I didn't realize how strong of an unconscious positive bias I had developed for my W (love) until I lost it. Now that I am seeing things objectively I've come to (and continue to come to) a number of conclusions about my W and our MR, one of which is that I will be just fine without her should we finalize the D.

As far as enduring my W under the same roof, it has in many ways gotten easier since I detached and stopped caring what she is doing, saying and with whom, although she still manages to irritate me from time to time. I continue to work on the refi project with my Realtor, mortgage broker and L. Hopefully we will have a package put together soon so we can move forward and cash my W out of the house.

As far as a social life, I've been going out from time to time with friends for dinners and movies, sailing and spending time with my kids and my side of the family- just keeping things light for now. wink

Thanks for checking in on me! ((Sandi))
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 10/31/09 06:22 AM
Sailing sounds like a wonderful way to find peace. smile
Posted By: iwantittowork Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 10/31/09 01:28 PM
Quote:
Hopefully we will have a package put together soon so we can move forward and cash my W out of the house.


Good luck BJ, I am pulling for you. Now that I am out, I have found an extra measure of peace. I believe you will find the same after, so keep that in mind as you progress. You'll get an even more objective view of things without her around all the time 'in your space' so to speak.

That brings a whole new set of questions. Would you even want to save the MR if she comes back around? And many more, although you man already be contemplating those.. smile
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 11/02/09 02:17 AM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
Sailing sounds like a wonderful way to find peace. smile


Hope,

I'm fortunate to have a good friend who has a 40' sailboat. I've been out with him several times on the (SF) Bay, last time was during Fleet Week. What a blast. And yes, it is both peaceful and relaxing. smile
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 11/02/09 02:33 AM
Originally Posted By: iwantittowork
Quote:
Hopefully we will have a package put together soon so we can move forward and cash my W out of the house.


Good luck BJ, I am pulling for you. Now that I am out, I have found an extra measure of peace. I believe you will find the same after, so keep that in mind as you progress. You'll get an even more objective view of things without her around all the time 'in your space' so to speak.

That brings a whole new set of questions. Would you even want to save the MR if she comes back around? And many more, although you man already be contemplating those.. smile



IWITW,

I'm pulling for you too. Yes, I do believe that once my W moves out I will develop even more objectivity regarding my sitch.

Regarding saving the MR, my W at this point would have to do A LOT of changing herself for that to even be a possibility. I don't see my W cleaning up her act anytime soon though. That would require accepting PERSONAL ACCOUNTABILITY shocked along with HARD WORK sick which according to her, perfect Rs (i.e. her and OM) should not require. So, she remains confused and obsessively devoted to OM who she is STILL talking to on a regular basis. But that is her problem, not mine.

Have a great week and thanks for checking in.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 11/02/09 03:51 AM
I'm so sorry to hear about this. We all hope to DB our way back into our M's but so often we support each other through D. We're still here.

And keep on sailin'...
Posted By: iwantittowork Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 11/02/09 04:45 PM
Quote:
That would require accepting PERSONAL ACCOUNTABILITY shocked along with HARD WORK sick which according to her, perfect Rs (i.e. her and OM) should not require.


I agree with you 100 percent here, and have heard the exact same things, perfect R's require no work, etc. Doesn't even seem based in reality at all does it?

Thanks for your thoughts BJ!
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 11/02/09 07:19 PM
Hope/IWITW,

Thanks for the feedback guys. Just another day in the Twilight Zone for me....crazy
Posted By: iwantittowork Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 11/02/09 09:38 PM
Quote:
Just another day in the Twilight Zone for me


I have that music now stuck in my head as I am reading your posts...

Seems appropriate...
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 11/03/09 05:18 AM
Originally Posted By: iwantittowork
Quote:
Just another day in the Twilight Zone for me


I have that music now stuck in my head as I am reading your posts...

Seems appropriate...


IWITW,

I know how that goes...someone mentions a song and it just sticks in your head for awhile playing over and over. Now that you've played The Twilight Zone over in your head a zillion times, here's a new one for you: "Another One Bites The Dust". See how long it takes to get that one out of your noggin! laugh

I'm heading out to the gym. Have a good one.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 11/03/09 06:08 AM
Oh great. Now I have "Another One Bites the Dust" dubbed over the "Twilight Zone" theme in my head. Thanks guys!
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 11/03/09 08:09 PM
What a perfect soundtrack to play in my head right now! Shall we add Bohemian Rhapsody to mix while were at it? laugh crazy

I'm feeling evil today... grin
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 11/04/09 05:41 PM
Quote:
Doesn't even seem based in reality at all does it?


That's just it......they are not living in reality.
Posted By: Heartbroken20 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 11/06/09 11:53 AM
Originally Posted By: BigJohn
Regarding saving the MR, my W at this point would have to do A LOT of changing herself for that to even be a possibility. I don't see my W cleaning up her act anytime soon though. That would require accepting PERSONAL ACCOUNTABILITY shocked along with HARD WORK sick which according to her, perfect Rs (i.e. her and OM) should not require.


BJ - You would NOT believe how many times I have heard "it shouldn't be this hard" when discussing MR. All of her divorced friends say the same thing (no wonder...).

And of course, personal accountability should be avoided at all costs as that might make it seem as if one had made a bad decision. And we ALL know any decisions made purely based on how you are feeling can't be wrong...

We are both meeting with D lawyers this week, and like you seem to have already done, I am beginning to think it's time to just cut her loose and let her live with her choices...

Oh, and one more song to add to the mix: "Your Time is Gonna Come" by Led Zepplin. Fits nicely....
Posted By: iwantittowork Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 11/06/09 09:08 PM
Hey BJ, if you happen to pop in, got 2 sec's to run by my sitch and have any advice for my latest long post???

Thanks man.
IWITW..
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 11/07/09 05:39 PM
HB20,

Sorry to hear about your sitch. You know, I'm of the same mindset as you are right now- cut my W loose and let her face the consequences of her poor decisions. The longer my sitch goes on the more pissed off I get over how I've been treated by my W. Not that I didn't deserve some of the pain I've received- I did due to my own oversights and poor choices. But my W's behavior and ongoing treatment of me throughout my sitch has gone WAY OVERBOARD.

Appropriate song selection by the way. If this keeps up I may have to start another thread for a playlist. laugh

Thanks for stopping by.
Posted By: iwantittowork Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 11/08/09 02:22 AM
Quote:
But my W's behavior and ongoing treatment of me throughout my sitch has gone WAY OVERBOARD.


I feel for you, I don't have this 'in your face' type stuff as you do, and I seem to be only barely scraping by emotionally.

You get kudo's from me BJ, no doubt about it. I don't know how you even do it.

But, we endure, I suppose, not many other choices, is there?
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 11/13/09 08:15 AM
IWITW,

Some days I don't know how I pull it off either. I don't think I could survive this ordeal emotionally or otherwise if I had not been able to achieve complete detachment.
Posted By: Heartbroken20 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 11/13/09 06:14 PM
Originally Posted By: BigJohn
HB20,

Sorry to hear about your sitch. You know, I'm of the same mindset as you are right now- cut my W loose and let her face the consequences of her poor decisions. The longer my sitch goes on the more pissed off I get over how I've been treated by my W. Not that I didn't deserve some of the pain I've received- I did due to my own oversights and poor choices. But my W's behavior and ongoing treatment of me throughout my sitch has gone WAY OVERBOARD.

Appropriate song selection by the way. If this keeps up I may have to start another thread for a playlist. laugh

Thanks for stopping by.



BJ - A playlist might not be a bad idea....

My W acts differently than yours, mine wants to be best buds and friendly "coparents" but definitely not married. She's nice as pie much of the time so I am lucky I guess, although it would probably be easier to walk away if she was a constant witch. She is nice, but cool/cold emotionally, during most of our interactions. Just when I think she may be coming back around a little, she tells me more about what her lawyer said, etc., regarding making the divorce happen more quickly. So I try to stay detached as much as possible. Not easy.

Anyway, sure wish you luck with your sitch, sounds like you're hanging tough so keep it up.

So
Posted By: Jman Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 11/15/09 11:16 PM
Hey BJ can u read my posts over at emotional detachment

JMan
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 11/17/09 02:10 AM
Originally Posted By: Heartbroken20
She is nice, but cool/cold emotionally, during most of our interactions. Just when I think she may be coming back around a little, she tells me more about what her lawyer said, etc., regarding making the divorce happen more quickly. So I try to stay detached as much as possible. Not easy.


HB20,

I get the same thing from my W. Right now, she is working on addressing me by my first name in conversations instead of "hon", which is how we have addressed each other for the last 19 + years. Apparently those terms of endearment are bad habits to break. Then again, she has her pet name/s for OM to consider also, so I can see where it could get confusing. crazy The stupidity of it all drives me wild if I think about it too long but it does make it easier to detach.

Hang in there.
Posted By: Heartbroken20 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 11/19/09 02:22 AM
Originally Posted By: BigJohn

HB20,

I get the same thing from my W. Right now, she is working on addressing me by my first name in conversations instead of "hon", which is how we have addressed each other for the last 19 + years. Apparently those terms of endearment are bad habits to break. Then again, she has her pet name/s for OM to consider also, so I can see where it could get confusing. crazy The stupidity of it all drives me wild if I think about it too long but it does make it easier to detach.

Hang in there.



Know how that feels. Nothing like feeling like a total stranger in your own house. I don't really get it but guess I don't need to any more. She has retained her lawyer and I have retained mine. And so it begins.....

First item on the agenda: How to split the time with our girls between us. She'll be moving out as this whole thing is her idea and I will stay in our house. She wants to alternate weeks like some of her divorced friends do. I don't want our girls to feel like they don't really live at their home anymore but now have two places to have to try to make feel like home. Not sure the best way to do it.

First meeting with all parties will be after Thanksgiving (what a great holiday it will be!) so hopefully I'll figure it out by then. Still detaching so it doesn't hurt so much and trying to be cordial but business-like, as trying to be the nice guy has gotten me absolutely nowhere.

You hang in there too. Still hoping you can work things out if that's what you want. It's a lost cause as long as OM is in the picture so I hope she tires of him soon before she does any more damage. As for my M, I've given up on it despite knowing that things could have worked out if she had made any effort to do so. What a waste. BUT time to move on.....
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 11/20/09 11:36 AM
Breaking herself from calling you "hon" is all part of her D you and moving on. I know things like this must still be very painful for you b/c it is big "sign" she's holding up to remind you how she's moving on in her distorted world. And, she's very aware of what she's doing.

I still check your thread out BJ. Just don't know much to say that I haven't already....at this point. But wanted you to know I'm still here in your corner.

Sandi
Posted By: iwantittowork Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 11/23/09 03:31 PM
Have not seen BJ on for a while now, hope all is well BJ! Let us know how your doing!
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 11/24/09 04:19 AM
Hey Sandi, good to hear from you! I appreciate you checking in on me from time to time. Same goes for IWITW and the rest of you fine folks. I don't think there is much to do or say right now as far as my W is concerned- she has made the conscious decision to guzzle as much of her own psychological/emotional Kool-Aid as she can, me, the kids and the rest of our extended family be damned.

It's gotten pretty sleazy and shameless between my W and OM- I won't bore you with the details. What is really sad and pathetic is the volatility of the R between my W and OM. He is apparently actively involved with another woman in his home state-my W is aware of this- and is using my W as an emotional Yo-Yo: one day they love each other, the next day they hate each other. The amount of effort my W is putting into trying to maintain the belief (in her head) that OM is a really good person (when she knows deep down he is a scumbag) and I am a bad person- to justify her love for him- is unbelievable. I don't know how long the sex talk, the promise of more sex and online gifts my W is plying the OM with can sustain this pathetic A/R of theirs and frankly I don't care. I doesn't matter because my W's fallback position remains that life will be wonderful as a single woman without me- despite increasing problems and tension between her and both of my sons.

Anyways, a little update on my sitch: my W has has found a place to move to here in town and is moving out this Friday. She has also been hired for a float/per diem nursing position in a neighboring community. Unfortunately, she doesn't start her new job for a few weeks, but that isn't stopping her from saying the hell with it and moving out now when our savings are almost completely dried up. Completely stupid since there is no guarantee that she will get much shift work- although the recruiter said they would keep her busy. I didn't completely like it because splitting up our remaining savings right now leaves me running close to on fumes financially but my L told me to seize the opportunity to get her out of the house- and everyone in my life who cares about me agreed. So I've given her 50% of our remaining savings and looking forward to having the house all to myself here pretty soon.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 11/27/09 02:55 AM
Once she is out of the house and she runs out of money, you won't be responsible to support her, will you? I wouldn't think so, but never know how different the laws may be from place to place.

I believe you will feel like a different person once she is out of there and you aren't be subjected to her personal business the way you are now. The less you know what is going on with her and OM, the better for you.

I sure hate that she didn't come to her senses b/c she's lost a good man in her life. When you start feeling like going out and meeting new people, you'll fine a wonderful person who will be just right for you. I truly believe that BJ.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 11/29/09 08:29 AM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Once she is out of the house and she runs out of money, you won't be responsible to support her, will you? I wouldn't think so, but never know how different the laws may be from place to place.


Well my L advised that there is a possibility that I may have to pay some alimony in the short term, but we don't anticipate it to be much since my W and I essentially make the same income.

Quote:
I believe you will feel like a different person once she is out of there and you aren't be subjected to her personal business the way you are now. The less you know what is going on with her and OM, the better for you.


I agree and I already am- she moved out this weekend. Supposedly, she and OM "broke up" recently- apparently he has found a local girl to fulfill his needs now- but that hasn't stopped my W from still wanting to go forward with the D. Whatever! I'm done putting up with all of her crap. Good luck being alone is all I can say to my W.

Quote:
When you start feeling like going out and meeting new people, you'll fine a wonderful person who will be just right for you. I truly believe that BJ.


I believe that I will too. Thank you Sandi.
Posted By: iwantittowork Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 11/30/09 02:49 AM
BJ,

Happy to see you posting back again, and hope you find some peace when she is out.

These are tough weeks ahead with holidays, I find myself actively wishing my STBXW is miserable, and that is not a good place to be, I know, so keep watch for thoughts along those lines. I feel your in a better spot than me, in that respect, so don't think you'll have those issues.

Wishing you well man!
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 12/01/09 06:33 AM
IWITW,

Thank you for the kind words. Although my W has still not completely moved out yet (she has physically moved but some of her stuff still remains- we hope to have the remainder of her personal property moved out this week)- I am already feeling a little peace of mind. We survived Thanksgiving OK but truth be told I'm feeling a little wistful about Christmas. But it is what it is. I just have to be strong for the kids and know that something good will eventually come out of all of this. It has to. Same goes for your sitch.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 12/01/09 08:49 AM
The fat lady hasn't sung yet. OM is gone, and you'll have the space to be with yourself and she with hers. You never know how that will turn out, so remember to keep busy. An empty house is no fun so keep up some new activities.
Posted By: iwantittowork Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 12/01/09 08:54 PM
Quote:
I just have to be strong for the kids and know that something good will eventually come out of all of this. It has to. Same goes for your sitch.


Thoughts to live by, currently. Thanks for your followups on my sitch. It's sad in a way, where we are, but good to know there are great people who understand what we are going through, and offer their thoughts, prayers and advice..
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 12/04/09 02:32 AM
IWITW,

It's times like these where you really see which people are of good character and which are not. As far as I'm concerned, we LBSs here shouldn't feel so bad about our own predicaments as much as we should (first and foremost)for our children and secondly our spouses/STBX spouses. The children are the innocent victims in all of this BS and that is what gets me upset the most in my sitch. As for my W, she hasn't accepted any personal accountability for the problems in our MR. The same issues she had in our MR will undoubtedly carry over into any future R she has as will all of her shortcomings.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 12/04/09 06:58 AM
Absolutely the truth!
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 12/11/09 08:08 AM
bump
Posted By: iwantittowork Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 12/11/09 09:58 PM
Quote:
As for my W, she hasn't accepted any personal accountability for the problems in our MR. The same issues she had in our MR will undoubtedly carry over into any future R she has as will all of her shortcomings.


Hey BJ, how is it going. I am moving to my Surviving the big D thread now, but wanted to post back on yours.

I hear you on the above, but there's nothing we can do about it.

Often I thought of my STBXW as being much more mature in relationship that I was, but then think back to this mess and all the "You shouldn't have to work on a relationship" and comments like that, that make me thing otherwise.

What I have been working on, is when I start to think like this, to then realize that I need to refocus on me now, and what I am doing, and my future.

Who knows what will happen to our STBX's, but I know I want to be a better person for myself, and that's my goal.

I need to make many more goals for myself and plans, without STBXW on my mind, and only myself and d8.

That's been tougher to do than I would have thought..

What are your goals now?
Posted By: iwantittowork Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 12/12/09 05:15 PM
Ok BJ, when you check in, stop by my surviving thread, and talk me down a bit, I need a 2x4 and some ears to vent to, so I can refocus on d8 and myself..

I should rename the D train to the Crazy Train...
Posted By: sgctxok Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 12/15/09 01:22 AM
Hi Big John!

Please close your thread...it's very large wink

Happy Holidays!
sg
Posted By: iwantittowork Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 12/21/09 03:51 AM
BJ, still around? Just checking in man, wondering if things are ok with you...
Posted By: iwantittowork Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 12/24/09 09:00 PM
BJ, hope you come around soon, and let us know your OK.

When you do, want you to know I have been thinking about you, and wishing you and your family a Merry Christmas
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 12/28/09 08:23 PM
All,

I hope everyone has been having a wonderful Christmas holiday despite the circumstances we find ourselves in. I want you to know you are all in my prayers, and I am grateful for the opportunity to be a part of our online community here. I apologize for not posting for a few weeks now but I have been very busy at work not to mention dealing with my D and problems my W has been having with S10. I'll have to fill you guys in later on more of the details, but in short my S10 is having serious emotional problems with my W's ongoing love affair with OM, the details of which he is fully aware of from snooping on my W's I-Phone. My son subsequently broke my W's I-phone in the midst of a physical altercation with my W which resulted in my W leaving S10 behind with me while she, S11, D4 and S11's friend- her "replacement son"- left for a vacation in her home state for this coming week. Unfortunately, my plan for this weekend and coming week- while off work and all alone by myself- was to repaint the entire inside of my house and replace the interior doors. Now in between projects I'm trying to spend some quality time with S10 and hopefully help him with his issues. I have a lot going on at the moment, but I will try to check in. Thank you again for your support and concern, hopefully 2010 will be a better year for all of us.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 12/29/09 06:28 AM
So glad to hear from you. Praying for you and your son. You cannot control what your W does, but being there for your S with love and compassion is all you can do now. Keep us posted.
Posted By: iwantittowork Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 12/29/09 01:36 PM
BJ! Glad to see you again, and sorry your having to deal with all this. I was afraid that things were not going well, but you sound like your dealing with things in very good way.

I hope you and your S can have some time together to work on thist, and hope he does well in figuring things out. Sorry that he found out all the BS that has been going on, that must be tough on him.

2010 will be a better year, I don't doubt it. I'll keep you and your family in my thoughts..
Posted By: iwantittowork Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 01/08/10 03:36 AM
I am going to have to get a spotlight with a big bold BJ symbol on it.

BJ, where are ya man!

I am thinking about you, and your family, and hoping things are as good as they can be for you and your family at this time. When you drop in, and have a minute, know that I am anxiously looking for an update from you my friend!
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 01/08/10 11:00 AM
Me Too, BJ! I miss you, friend.
Posted By: loveherstill Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 01/13/10 08:28 PM
Sandi2,

Could you please look at my thread. I am in need of advice

Thanks
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 01/14/10 07:15 AM
Hello everyone! Just checking in. I've had a lot going on with the issues with my S10- we have had a few more "incidents" between him and my W since I last posted and I've since made the decision to assume 100% custody of him at my place while maintaining the 50% custody of S11 and D4. I don't like the children being separated like this even for a little while, but did not feel that there was any other choice as it was becoming a very serious issue with regards to my W's physical safety. Right now, I'm working with S10 on my own with his anger issues with my W while trying to locate a competent therapist that he can work with.

On top of the issues with S10, I've been dealing with a number of other issues with the kids in general, my W continues to push as many (kid related) bills as she can on me and as we head into the 11th hour of our upcoming meeting to flesh out the financial and child custody arrangements, my W decided to bring in an appraiser to appraise our house after all the work I did during the Holidays- she has decided that the market analysis done by my Realtor two months ago just doesn't leave her with enough money. Real nice. (I will be fighting to ensure that she does not get to benefit from any increase in value to the house since her move out.) So more delays in trying to refinance the mortgage, and if the interest rates go up on me, well it's not her problem.

There is much more I could post but suffice to say my W continues to maintain the majority of her focus on her own self gratification while Rome is burning. I haven't the interest or time to dwell on her problems, only on those she continues to cause for me and the kids.

Thank you all for your concern and continuing interest in my sitch. I'll try to jump back in here when I can.
Posted By: iwantittowork Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 01/14/10 12:39 PM
Hey BJ, I think about you often, and glad you had a chance to catch up here.

It sounds like you have your hands full, but are doing great on all this. Keep it up, you will make it through this, and so will your kids. I hope you get S10 a good therapist, and get him started on the path to healing. Let him know that his feelings are valid, and hopefully he can start talking through it.

Ah yes, finances with the StBXW, the same spot I am having the hardest time with right now, both personally and just dealing with it. Remember that it is not permanent though, and even if things are not going your way financially now, once this is through, you WILL rebuild, regain your financial freedom, and succeed where you want to.

When I look at the very worst that can happen, and that would be having to declare personal bankruptcy, and then accept that could happen. It helps then to realize that you can rebuild from that. It's temporary only, many people have hit that, and then gone on to success again. Accepting that helps push forward through the mess of finances that StBXW's have wrought.

Quote:
I haven't the interest or time to dwell on her problems, only on those she continues to cause for me and the kids


Sounds like you are mentally in a good place, keep that above, and when you find your focus shifting to what StBXW is doing, turn it back to focus on you, your Kids, and what you and they need and want. Helps to keep you centered.

Keep us in your thoughts, and drop by and update us when you can. You know you are in our thoughts!
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 01/26/10 06:25 AM
Well just a quick update. Completed my first financial 4 way meeting with my attorney, my W and her attorney. Didn't get as many things resolved as I wanted but made some headway nevertheless. Presently working to prepare for the appraiser my W and her attorney hired- he finally called (belatedly) last week to schedule an appointment with me for this week. What a pain in the a** playing all of these games! D really does bring out the worst in some people. As for myself, all it does for me is strengthen my resolve to get stronger and better. As always, I appreciate everyone's thoughts and prayers for me and my family as you all are in mine. I'll continue to pop in when I can to check in with you all. Take care.

BJ
Posted By: iwantittowork Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 01/26/10 02:51 PM
Hey BJ,

Your making some small progress, so that is good. It's nice just to see some forward movement..

Quote:
What a pain in the a** playing all of these games!


Yep...

Quote:
D really does bring out the worst in some people.


No doubt. It is tough to realize, it's all about the money at this point, and hard to separate that from what we 'thought' our stbx's where. Very tough. But, you have to approach it from what is in your interest now, and I know you are.

Quote:
As for myself, all it does for me is strengthen my resolve to get stronger and better.


That is the most important thing, in my opinion, it will help with the kids, the financial devastation, how you approach things going forward, and ultimately how you wind up after.

You are doing well my friend, don't forget that! Keep that attitude no matter what is thrown your way.

Good to hear from you again!
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 03/17/10 07:39 AM
Hello all,

Just popping in for a quick update here as I've had my hands full as some of you can attest from my posts in other threads. Nothing really new to report thus far as my W (aka STBXW) and I are approaching another 4-way meeting with the L's, although my W has been making noise to everyone lately about how she has broken things off with OM for good and oh by the way she never had sex with OM the three evenings that they were out together and at his place. Curious, as it's always been understood that OM is/was the Ultimate Soulmate without flaw. Whatever.

In any event, between these little blurbs and hearing some really good news from my buddy DDAY about his sitch, I guess I'll keep this thread open here a little longer in this forum...even though I know it's long. Who knows what could happen. For now though, keeping detached and focused on the kids and the business end of things. Regards, BJ
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 03/17/10 07:41 AM
Good to see you back on here! Often the WAS does a turnaround when OP is out of the picture. Don't give up. I see you aren't. THe fat lady hasn't sung yet.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 05/19/10 07:44 AM
Hello folks!

Just checking in (briefly) to say that I'm still alive and kicking. There have been more twists and turns in the saga which is my life right now that I have been dealing with- I will have to find time to give a more complete update later.

I'm happy to report that the sitch with my kids and especially with S10 has stabilized with the help of counseling. My W's relationship with OM appears to have withered and died- he has found someone locally in his community to romance and appears "done" with her (my W). Despite this, my W does not appear completely over her addiction to OM and remains committed to progressing towards D. Presently I feel completely burned out from my W's A and her treatment towards me and the kids. This has helped me sustain my "dropping the rope" strategy and frankly made me question whether I want to ever try to pick the rope up again. Only time will tell.

Again I am grateful for the concern and interest so many of you have shown for my sitch. I hope that my experience as I have chronicled here is helping other LBS in some way positively deal with their own sitchs.

Thank you again.

BJ
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 05/19/10 10:29 PM
Thank you so much for checking in and letting us here from you. I have wondered so many times about you, but I have always believed you were the kind of man who would be alright with whatever the outcome of the M. What I mean is that you are a strong person and you have what it takes to "make" a good life with the people who love you.

I'm not surprised at your W, but I had hoped she would get her eyes opened and see what she was throwing away. I hate the "addiction" factor that seems to completely take over. As it's been said before....it really seems to be like some kind of drug and it destroys families.

So happy to hear about you and kids. This has had to be awful for them. Glad you are their dad and are showing great support.

Hope to hear from you again.
Posted By: Jman Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 05/23/10 01:26 PM
Hey BJ,

Its been awhile..I started a new post under surving the Big D..(Relief soon)..Its good to see you still on here..
Posted By: Fallen Knight Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 06/13/10 06:36 PM
Big John:
hang in there and do the best that you can.
I do understand about dropping the rope(i have), detach (i have)
and it does seem like the Op in my wife's life is gone still not quite sure but am focusing on myself and my kids.
You seem to focusing on yourself and your kids that always a good thing reguardless of what happens.
My best to you sir...
Posted By: CD Bear Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 06/27/10 02:31 AM
Hey, Big John.
I learned a lot from your thread so I thought I'd check up on you. You doin' OK?

Two weeks is a long time between updates, my friend.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 07/27/10 06:53 AM
CD Bear, Fallen Knight:

Thanks for the kind words. The kids and I continue to do better, especially S10. The D is still not final- my W's L is taking forever to get back to my L regarding some undeclared pensions of hers. (Not reading anything into that give this L's prior history.)In between spending time with my kids I've taken up several home improvement projects this summer- one of the reasons I haven't been on in awhile. It's all been good therapy for me. Plus I need to take advantage of the weather while it's nice out.

I'll try to get back on here more often when I can.
Posted By: iwantittowork Re: Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2! - 08/06/10 05:45 PM
BJ! How are you my friend! Been a long time, and I am so glad you stopped by to post on my and your sitch updates. It sounds like you are doing well, and I am so glad your S10 is handling things and doing well!

Keep it up man, and stop by to say hi when you can. I have been off site for a while myself, so hope to catch up with everyone soon.

Peace,
Iwitw
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