Busting My WAW - 04/27/09 11:24 AM
Greetings. I find that I can't sleep tonight.
I have officially been DBing for almost 3-years and unbeknownst to me longer than that (apparently she had been unhappy for many years, even claimed she never was happy). My first original sitch post is in my signature block below. My most recent sitch post is http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1736832&page=1#Post1736832, where it was recently suggested that I start reading and posting here.
My W has not walked out of the house yet, but physically, emotionally, sexually, etc. she checked out many years ago. She had an A and then asked for D about 3-years ago. She actually asked for a D a couple times in the years prior to that, but I guess I ignored her. Since I have been DBing these last few years, I thought things were actually getting better since we rarely argued and she never mentioned D, but I should have known better as the physical, social, and sexual realationships are practically non-existent. She just kept making excuses, tired, not feeling well, haven't brushed my teeth, haven't showered, not with the kids around, etc. She kept asking for space, so I would give it to her, not touch her, not talk to her, not approach her for sex, let go out or stay in while I watch the kids. This lack of everything had me finally thinking about leaving because I was giving everything and not getting anything in return which is also the time I started posting again. Then just recently, on my birthday no less, she said she is moving out, getting an apartment, and taking the kids. I said you can go, but you are not taking the kids. She said she is not leaving without them. She had this conversation right in front of them, so my Daughter started screaming don't go daddy, so this ended the conversation. The next day I called a DBing coach.
Funny thing it was our 9th Anniversary and my 39th birthday this past week, so I had planned an evening out on Friday as well. Another funny thing is that my W has three sisters (two older and one younger) that are all going through a D. One more funny thing, an old college friend of mine on facebook and a co-worker are all going through the same thing. What is wrong with our country, culture, and world when D seems so easy and simple for so many?
I was surprised that she was even willing to still go out on Friday after threatening to leave me the night before, but since I had already planned it I said I was going out with or without her since I had already arranged for a sitter, made restaurant and hotel reservations. She was actually probably looking forward to an evening out without the kids anyway and the opportunity to talk to me more about her plans. So we had some good food and a glass of wine. We started with small talk, but went into parenting talk. I used the "Relationship Wheel" or the "Velvet Glove" ideas for improvement provided to me by the DBing coach by rating different things from 1-10 and how to improve. For example starting with parenting we said 5 and to get to 6, we need to be more consistant with our daily routines and discipline...we went into specifics but I won't bore you with those. From there somehow we spun off into relationship talk, which actually I was trying to avoid. It started because she was saying how we are not a Team. Which is not 100% true, but with anything and everything we can always work to be even better. She proceeded to give me basically the same lines from 3-years ago. I need space from you. I don't feel anything in my heart for you. I don't love you. I don't want to do anything for you. I lost it a long time ago. I haven't gotten it back and I don't think I ever will. I am miserable. I am unhappy. I hate coming home while you are there. I prefer to stay at work where I am happy, laughing, having a good time. I feel like a different person at work, then at home. I said then why don't you be that person at work at home. She said she can't. That I drain all the energy from her. You exhaust me. You repulse me. I don't want to be around you. I don't want to see you, touch you, hug you, kiss you, nor even have sex with you anymore. I don't trust you. Early in our marriage, I told you everything that I wanted from you and everything not to do and you did exactly the opposite. [For the record, the wrong or mistakes I made were only that I did not apparently love, hug, and cherish her enough or what she expected for married couples; I did not cheat; I did not beat; I just did not listen nor change fast enough]. She said, You didn't listen then and you are not listening now. She continued to say that I have been doing everything right the last few years, but it is just too late. She said it makes her angry to see me changed now and asked me why didn't I change then. I said my only excuse is that I was young, immature, proud, inexperienced in love and relationships [I had only had a couple of serious relationships. She had been married once already and in another relationship that lasted several years. She apparently knew exactly what she wanted, expected, and tried to teach me, so that I wouldn't make the same mistakes. I obviously failed]. She said she will not continue to be in an unhappy loveless sexless marriage for me nor the kids. She wants me to see a counselor on coping with letting her go. Whether it was right or not, I started by quoting Dr Laura, "Love is a choice, not just a feeling." If she loved me once, she could chose to love me again. This made her very angry and she said I wasn't right in the head indicating that we can't control our feelings or make such choices. So for the remainder of the conversations, she would say I don't feel like it and then quickly say, I chose not to want to be with you. She also said she just doesn't trust me, which is why she doesn't want to even open her heart to me. She said she could not understand how she could be so mean to me and me still want to be with her. I had to ask her if she was seeing or had feelings for someone else, or the same one from before, but she insisted that no. I finally said, no matter what I will not quit, I will never give up, I will do everything within my power to hold on to her and not let her go. But I also said I know I can't control her and if she packs her bags and leaves the house I cannot stop her unless she tries to take the kids. Then she tried to bargan with me for her to take one and for me to keep one and then they can see each other on the weekends. I said that was wrong and unacceptable. I said if she wants to leave, then leave, but the kids need to be together and stay home with me. I used the example of her two sisters, one of which all her kids are on drugs and in and out of school and jail all the time, then other screwed up families and kids that we know affected by separated/divorced parents. Of course she got very angry. She said she didn't care about other families. She only cared about how she was feeling. How she wants to be the happy go lucky person she used to be. That she wasn't going to stay for my feelings or for the benefit of the kids. She started saying that speaking to me was useless, once again I was not listening, and how can I not understand that she feels (or choses to feel) nothing for me and never will. That I should just let her go. Why would I want to be with someone that doesn't want to be with me. I said that I chose her as my wife. That I may not have listened to her and have made mistakes in the past, but I have been listening the last few years and I have done everything she has asked of me. That I couldn't imagine being with anyone else, nor her with anyone else, and most especially I do not want anyone else raising our children. We eventually changed the subject back to the topic of "Relationship Wheel" as I said whether she choses to stay or go we will always have to take care of the children together, so what are we going to do to improve parenting the children, renovating the house, family recreation plans (I even suggested that I would take the children myself if she wanted to stay back and have some space, but oddly enough she enthusiastically agreed to three separate family vacations over the next year), spiritual plans (we agreed that we would go and take the children to Sunday School and Church--I already do it now, but she agreed to this time--except only today she didn't go again, although I did with the kids), etc. We came up with one or two plans for each of the topics. Almost all were a joint effort, so I walked away from dinner positive.
We went to the hotel, she said to talk, but as soon as we got there she got undressed and got into bed. She said she wanted to watch a movie. We had some small talk. I started a movie. Then I proceeded to attempt to kiss her. She initially was not receptive as usual, but I practically begged (probably not a good thing to do) since it had been so long, but I figured it ain't happening at home, I am not getting it elsewhere, what do I have to lose to try to get some lovin from my wife since we have the opportunity without interuption. She finally actually kissed me back for just a short passionate kiss unlike over the last year where she usually just pushed me away at my every attempt at tongue. I then talked her into sex convincing her that she could use a good orgasim (this was actually suggested by the DBing coach). I also asked her what she thinks or does about sex since we rarely have it but once every couple of months and even then it is always quick and most of the time in the shower. She said she doesn't ever think about it because of being tired all the time, but she does dream about it sometimes. I asked her if she ever pleasures herself and she said no. I asked her again, if I am not pleasing her is someone else. She said no. I asked her what she thought I was doing since she knows that I have always had a huge sexual appetite. She said she didn't know, but then asked me if when I was on business trips if I thought about being with anyone else. I said no (I probably should have said yes), but I did say that I pleasure myself a lot. She said when and where. I said late at night or in the shower. I asked her if she thought about being with someone else. She said no. So anyway, we actually had some great sex (at least as far as I was concerned). In the heat of passion, she asked me why did I let this happen to us? I said I didn't let anything happen. I guess I was young, immature, and incapable of listening, but now and the last few years I am listening, I understand and I have changed for the better forever. It is up to her now. She didn't respond. She came twice and shortly thereafter fell-asleep. Of course, I wanted more and then tried again in the morning, but she turned me down both times. She said in the morning, I told you I don't want to have sex with you. I said you know you want me. You are just afraid to show it. You are just mean to me in order to justify your feelings and protect your heart. She didn't say anything to that. We got into the shower together and I tried again, but she pushed me away. We went to breakfast together and proceeded to talk about the kids and family. We finally went home and took the kids to an amusement park for the afternoon. I know I was feeling and showing happiness all day, but she sort of lapsed into her normal miserable self. I told her, she should feel happy as she just got laid. She laughed and said is that why you are happy. I said of course it is one of the many reason as I felt we had a great evening. Overall it was a better than average weekend for the first time for a long time. Although, all my future attempts at hugs and kisses the rest of the weekend went unresponded to as usual.
In addition, the DBing Coach said to get my Legal Guns loaded in regards to the children before I essentially give her the ultimatum. I didn't have time for that on Friday, so I avoided any ultimatum languague. Basically, the coach said I need to be less predictable, stop being a door mat, hold my head-high, demand respect, etc.
My Questions to anyone out there for their opinions based on experiences is the following:
1) Do I leave, invite her to leave, or say and do nothing?
2) If she does leave, do I allow her to take the children or do I fight to keep them?
3) If I fight to keep them, what grounds do I have that would be supported by the law?
4) While we are under the same roof, since she is always asking for space from me, how much do I give her if any? Do I initiate conversations in passing or not? Do I attempt to hug and or kiss in passing or not? Do I attempt to have sex or not?
5) I assume that having a friend with benefits or something like that it for sex is not the right thing to do, so is pleasing myself frequently okay or not?
6) I am a gift giver, letter and card writer, and even romantic song singer when I want to be for most all occassions. She is not and doesn't seem to care whether I do this for her or not, so should I keep it up or not?
7) Do I call and text her during the day or not?
8) Do I tell her that I love her on a regular basis like I do with the kids or not?
9) How does one actually be less predicatable when there are kids involved that essentially require a daily routine?
10) In DBing we are supposed to avoid relationship talk and conflict, but my W is constantly critical of me, i.e. how I drive, how I discipline and even play with the children, etc. In this situation should I defend myself or just continue to validate?
No matter what, as calm, cool and collected as I sound in this post, I am still very saddened, hurt, frustrated, angry, and disappointed with the thought of losing my wife, which essentially is the loss and break-down of my family. How does one recover? I can't even imagine playing the field again to find another. I have a difficult time even imagining going on in my job/career as we are both in the same career field, so then I think about quitting. I have thoughts of leaving the state to get away and start anew, but then essentially I am either leaving my children or taking them from their mother. I hope it never comes to this, but even her moving out to an apartment whether temporary or permanent will be embarrassing as if I failed.
I know this is long, so thanks to any of you that take the time to read it. I sort of lay it all out kind of like a journal so that I can remember, reflect, and refer back to.
Thanks.
I have officially been DBing for almost 3-years and unbeknownst to me longer than that (apparently she had been unhappy for many years, even claimed she never was happy). My first original sitch post is in my signature block below. My most recent sitch post is http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1736832&page=1#Post1736832, where it was recently suggested that I start reading and posting here.
My W has not walked out of the house yet, but physically, emotionally, sexually, etc. she checked out many years ago. She had an A and then asked for D about 3-years ago. She actually asked for a D a couple times in the years prior to that, but I guess I ignored her. Since I have been DBing these last few years, I thought things were actually getting better since we rarely argued and she never mentioned D, but I should have known better as the physical, social, and sexual realationships are practically non-existent. She just kept making excuses, tired, not feeling well, haven't brushed my teeth, haven't showered, not with the kids around, etc. She kept asking for space, so I would give it to her, not touch her, not talk to her, not approach her for sex, let go out or stay in while I watch the kids. This lack of everything had me finally thinking about leaving because I was giving everything and not getting anything in return which is also the time I started posting again. Then just recently, on my birthday no less, she said she is moving out, getting an apartment, and taking the kids. I said you can go, but you are not taking the kids. She said she is not leaving without them. She had this conversation right in front of them, so my Daughter started screaming don't go daddy, so this ended the conversation. The next day I called a DBing coach.
Funny thing it was our 9th Anniversary and my 39th birthday this past week, so I had planned an evening out on Friday as well. Another funny thing is that my W has three sisters (two older and one younger) that are all going through a D. One more funny thing, an old college friend of mine on facebook and a co-worker are all going through the same thing. What is wrong with our country, culture, and world when D seems so easy and simple for so many?
I was surprised that she was even willing to still go out on Friday after threatening to leave me the night before, but since I had already planned it I said I was going out with or without her since I had already arranged for a sitter, made restaurant and hotel reservations. She was actually probably looking forward to an evening out without the kids anyway and the opportunity to talk to me more about her plans. So we had some good food and a glass of wine. We started with small talk, but went into parenting talk. I used the "Relationship Wheel" or the "Velvet Glove" ideas for improvement provided to me by the DBing coach by rating different things from 1-10 and how to improve. For example starting with parenting we said 5 and to get to 6, we need to be more consistant with our daily routines and discipline...we went into specifics but I won't bore you with those. From there somehow we spun off into relationship talk, which actually I was trying to avoid. It started because she was saying how we are not a Team. Which is not 100% true, but with anything and everything we can always work to be even better. She proceeded to give me basically the same lines from 3-years ago. I need space from you. I don't feel anything in my heart for you. I don't love you. I don't want to do anything for you. I lost it a long time ago. I haven't gotten it back and I don't think I ever will. I am miserable. I am unhappy. I hate coming home while you are there. I prefer to stay at work where I am happy, laughing, having a good time. I feel like a different person at work, then at home. I said then why don't you be that person at work at home. She said she can't. That I drain all the energy from her. You exhaust me. You repulse me. I don't want to be around you. I don't want to see you, touch you, hug you, kiss you, nor even have sex with you anymore. I don't trust you. Early in our marriage, I told you everything that I wanted from you and everything not to do and you did exactly the opposite. [For the record, the wrong or mistakes I made were only that I did not apparently love, hug, and cherish her enough or what she expected for married couples; I did not cheat; I did not beat; I just did not listen nor change fast enough]. She said, You didn't listen then and you are not listening now. She continued to say that I have been doing everything right the last few years, but it is just too late. She said it makes her angry to see me changed now and asked me why didn't I change then. I said my only excuse is that I was young, immature, proud, inexperienced in love and relationships [I had only had a couple of serious relationships. She had been married once already and in another relationship that lasted several years. She apparently knew exactly what she wanted, expected, and tried to teach me, so that I wouldn't make the same mistakes. I obviously failed]. She said she will not continue to be in an unhappy loveless sexless marriage for me nor the kids. She wants me to see a counselor on coping with letting her go. Whether it was right or not, I started by quoting Dr Laura, "Love is a choice, not just a feeling." If she loved me once, she could chose to love me again. This made her very angry and she said I wasn't right in the head indicating that we can't control our feelings or make such choices. So for the remainder of the conversations, she would say I don't feel like it and then quickly say, I chose not to want to be with you. She also said she just doesn't trust me, which is why she doesn't want to even open her heart to me. She said she could not understand how she could be so mean to me and me still want to be with her. I had to ask her if she was seeing or had feelings for someone else, or the same one from before, but she insisted that no. I finally said, no matter what I will not quit, I will never give up, I will do everything within my power to hold on to her and not let her go. But I also said I know I can't control her and if she packs her bags and leaves the house I cannot stop her unless she tries to take the kids. Then she tried to bargan with me for her to take one and for me to keep one and then they can see each other on the weekends. I said that was wrong and unacceptable. I said if she wants to leave, then leave, but the kids need to be together and stay home with me. I used the example of her two sisters, one of which all her kids are on drugs and in and out of school and jail all the time, then other screwed up families and kids that we know affected by separated/divorced parents. Of course she got very angry. She said she didn't care about other families. She only cared about how she was feeling. How she wants to be the happy go lucky person she used to be. That she wasn't going to stay for my feelings or for the benefit of the kids. She started saying that speaking to me was useless, once again I was not listening, and how can I not understand that she feels (or choses to feel) nothing for me and never will. That I should just let her go. Why would I want to be with someone that doesn't want to be with me. I said that I chose her as my wife. That I may not have listened to her and have made mistakes in the past, but I have been listening the last few years and I have done everything she has asked of me. That I couldn't imagine being with anyone else, nor her with anyone else, and most especially I do not want anyone else raising our children. We eventually changed the subject back to the topic of "Relationship Wheel" as I said whether she choses to stay or go we will always have to take care of the children together, so what are we going to do to improve parenting the children, renovating the house, family recreation plans (I even suggested that I would take the children myself if she wanted to stay back and have some space, but oddly enough she enthusiastically agreed to three separate family vacations over the next year), spiritual plans (we agreed that we would go and take the children to Sunday School and Church--I already do it now, but she agreed to this time--except only today she didn't go again, although I did with the kids), etc. We came up with one or two plans for each of the topics. Almost all were a joint effort, so I walked away from dinner positive.
We went to the hotel, she said to talk, but as soon as we got there she got undressed and got into bed. She said she wanted to watch a movie. We had some small talk. I started a movie. Then I proceeded to attempt to kiss her. She initially was not receptive as usual, but I practically begged (probably not a good thing to do) since it had been so long, but I figured it ain't happening at home, I am not getting it elsewhere, what do I have to lose to try to get some lovin from my wife since we have the opportunity without interuption. She finally actually kissed me back for just a short passionate kiss unlike over the last year where she usually just pushed me away at my every attempt at tongue. I then talked her into sex convincing her that she could use a good orgasim (this was actually suggested by the DBing coach). I also asked her what she thinks or does about sex since we rarely have it but once every couple of months and even then it is always quick and most of the time in the shower. She said she doesn't ever think about it because of being tired all the time, but she does dream about it sometimes. I asked her if she ever pleasures herself and she said no. I asked her again, if I am not pleasing her is someone else. She said no. I asked her what she thought I was doing since she knows that I have always had a huge sexual appetite. She said she didn't know, but then asked me if when I was on business trips if I thought about being with anyone else. I said no (I probably should have said yes), but I did say that I pleasure myself a lot. She said when and where. I said late at night or in the shower. I asked her if she thought about being with someone else. She said no. So anyway, we actually had some great sex (at least as far as I was concerned). In the heat of passion, she asked me why did I let this happen to us? I said I didn't let anything happen. I guess I was young, immature, and incapable of listening, but now and the last few years I am listening, I understand and I have changed for the better forever. It is up to her now. She didn't respond. She came twice and shortly thereafter fell-asleep. Of course, I wanted more and then tried again in the morning, but she turned me down both times. She said in the morning, I told you I don't want to have sex with you. I said you know you want me. You are just afraid to show it. You are just mean to me in order to justify your feelings and protect your heart. She didn't say anything to that. We got into the shower together and I tried again, but she pushed me away. We went to breakfast together and proceeded to talk about the kids and family. We finally went home and took the kids to an amusement park for the afternoon. I know I was feeling and showing happiness all day, but she sort of lapsed into her normal miserable self. I told her, she should feel happy as she just got laid. She laughed and said is that why you are happy. I said of course it is one of the many reason as I felt we had a great evening. Overall it was a better than average weekend for the first time for a long time. Although, all my future attempts at hugs and kisses the rest of the weekend went unresponded to as usual.
In addition, the DBing Coach said to get my Legal Guns loaded in regards to the children before I essentially give her the ultimatum. I didn't have time for that on Friday, so I avoided any ultimatum languague. Basically, the coach said I need to be less predictable, stop being a door mat, hold my head-high, demand respect, etc.
My Questions to anyone out there for their opinions based on experiences is the following:
1) Do I leave, invite her to leave, or say and do nothing?
2) If she does leave, do I allow her to take the children or do I fight to keep them?
3) If I fight to keep them, what grounds do I have that would be supported by the law?
4) While we are under the same roof, since she is always asking for space from me, how much do I give her if any? Do I initiate conversations in passing or not? Do I attempt to hug and or kiss in passing or not? Do I attempt to have sex or not?
5) I assume that having a friend with benefits or something like that it for sex is not the right thing to do, so is pleasing myself frequently okay or not?
6) I am a gift giver, letter and card writer, and even romantic song singer when I want to be for most all occassions. She is not and doesn't seem to care whether I do this for her or not, so should I keep it up or not?
7) Do I call and text her during the day or not?
8) Do I tell her that I love her on a regular basis like I do with the kids or not?
9) How does one actually be less predicatable when there are kids involved that essentially require a daily routine?
10) In DBing we are supposed to avoid relationship talk and conflict, but my W is constantly critical of me, i.e. how I drive, how I discipline and even play with the children, etc. In this situation should I defend myself or just continue to validate?
No matter what, as calm, cool and collected as I sound in this post, I am still very saddened, hurt, frustrated, angry, and disappointed with the thought of losing my wife, which essentially is the loss and break-down of my family. How does one recover? I can't even imagine playing the field again to find another. I have a difficult time even imagining going on in my job/career as we are both in the same career field, so then I think about quitting. I have thoughts of leaving the state to get away and start anew, but then essentially I am either leaving my children or taking them from their mother. I hope it never comes to this, but even her moving out to an apartment whether temporary or permanent will be embarrassing as if I failed.
I know this is long, so thanks to any of you that take the time to read it. I sort of lay it all out kind of like a journal so that I can remember, reflect, and refer back to.
Thanks.
